>> you've got to give him credit for a sense of humor, but that spider dog is downright terrifying and nasty. poor thing. thanks for joining us. be sure to set your dvr to record "outfront." "ac 360" begins right now. breaking news tonight and it is big. we learned tonight that brian williams the suspended anchor of the nbc nightly news will no longer be the anchor of the nbc nightly news. we have the inside details of the deal that will apparently keep him at the network, but keep him out of his former anchor chair. brian joins us live. what have you learned? >> there are ongoing meetings at "30 rock," and they might want to announce this as early as tomorrow. some people at nbc would like to be able to say yes, brian williams is coming back to work but not to the "nbc nightly news" anchor chair. this has been telegraphed for a while. there were reports a couple of weeks ago that he would not be coming back to "nightly news." >> there were a number of leaks, frankly.

>> nothing official. lester holt who's been filling in for four months has known nothing. and so has his staff. everyone there has been in the dark as the top executives plot brian williams' future. at this level it's about negotiations between brian williams' attorney and those top executives. those negotiations have reached a point where they've got an agreement. they've got an agreement to have him come back to nbc, but not as the "nightly news" anchor. what will he be doing? almost nobody knows. >> is the thinking on bringing him back he can somehow rehabilitate himself, and that's the hope? regardless they would have had to pay him out a certain amount of cents on the dollar. >> part of the calculation in all these cases is you might not want to see the person across the street at a rival network or doing something new and different. you might not want to compete with them, so you'd rather keep them in-house. and tens of millions of dollars were on the line here. brian williams was until february the most watched nightly news anchor in our country. >> right. >> not only that he had just

signed a five-year contract worth $50 million. nbc won't have to lose all that money. of course it's a different role. probably a reduced role. maybe at a reduced price tag. there's any number of things he could do inside comcast without being the nightly news anchor. >> i was trying to imagine what his role would be. i mean you could see him perhaps anchoring on msnbc. obviously that's a network in trouble and a network which is now going to try to redefine itself in a newsier direction. so that's one option. would ""dateline"" maybe? >> you could imagine him doing something like "dateline," doing a series of specials doing a series of primetime documentaries, things like that. in order for brian williams to reestablish his credibility, to regain his credibility, he may want to be seen as a reporter again, out there doing reporting, doing big interviews and not just doing the kind of anchor desk work that we know him for doing for years. the best anchors are the ones that report and anchor, the ones that are out in the field as

well as behind the anchor desk. so maybe he'll try to be more of a roving reporter. but that is the big multi-million-dollar question now. how exactly he restores the audience's trust in him. it's a long history in this country of second acts and of forgiveness. but exactly how you gain that how exactly you get that you know that's going to be very challenging. >> it will be interesting to see. and we should point out he had been on msnbc while he was waiting to take over for tom brokaw. he anchored a program on msnbc. >> i think the headline is he's down but not out. he's down but he's not out from nbc. >> all right, brian, breaking the headline. thank you very much. coming up next, right now, the prison break. new images tonight of those two fugitive killers. these are forensic artist's projection of what david west and richard matt might look like after 12 days on the run. just one of a string of new developments today in the hunt in the case against their alleged accomplice. joyce tilly, the prison tailor

mitchell and her husband lyle. and we learned the correctional facility has been shut down. and the search area has now changed. the latest on all of it from our randi kaye who joins us. let's begin with the search area. shifting again. do they think these guys are still in the area of the prison? >> reporter: they do anderson, and they're certainly hoping so. they've already searched 16 square miles, about 10,000 acres. the area is shifting and that really is based on the 1,400 leads that they have now. the information that they're getting from those leads is telling them to shift to a different area. but still here nearby the prison they're shifting the roadblocks they're shifting the k9 units. the lead investigator told us they don't have any hard evidence that these guys have left town that they're not in this area. they don't have any reports of a stolen car that they may have taken to get out of town. they're working off the evidence that they have which tells them that they are still right here.

and one last thing, richard matt one of the escapees his m.o. his style when he has escaped prison before is to lay low until the time is right to make a run for it. >> do investigators think that somebody else is giving them help now on the outside? >> they're certainly looking into that. we know at least if what joyce mitchell the prison seamstress has told investigators that she was helping them on the inside. so now they're wondering if there was a plan b, maybe because joyce mitchell didn't pick them up maybe there was a plan b in place and they have somebody else helping them on the outside. they didn't want to give away too much detail because they didn't want to compromise the investigation, but they certainly have not ruled that out, that they have help right now. >> we'll be talking to the district attorney in just a few minutes. i understand you just spoke with him and he gave you some new information about joyce mitchell and richard matt. >> reporter: yeah i had some questions, anderson because there have been these reports about these paintings that richard matt has made while he was in prison. and these were paintings of celebrities such as oprah and

president obama. and we know that joyce mitchell had this sexual relationship with richard matt. we've been reporting that. they've been in a relationship since probably 2013. i'm learning tonight from the district attorney just moments ago that richard matt actually made a painting for joyce mitchell of her children which she then gave to her husband, lyle mitchell who also worked in the prison as a maintenance worker. she gave that to him just in april as an anniversary gift. so a painting from richard matt for joyce mitchell given to her husband as a wedding anniversary gift back in april. and the payment for that painting she apparently gave richard matt what's called speed gloves which are used on a speed bag in a boxing gym. so that's the new information coming to us just from tonight. >> thanks very much. more on the husband lyle mitchell. so many more questions now surrounding him. what did he know about the plot his wife's role in it her

reportedly two-year-long sexual relationship that randi was talking about with matt. the danger he faced. the jailhouse visit. he is obviously not talking. his attorney is. al alexandra field joins us now. i know you spoke to lyle mitchell's attorney. what did he say? >> reporter: he is claiming no knowledge of the escape plan. he describes lyle in a state somewhere between reeling and confused given the week the ten days he has now been through. he also says however, that lyle mitchell does not deny the allegations that joyce mitchell may have assisted in this escape. he is also not denying the allegations that she was having an affair but a source close to the investigation says that lyle mitchell had no idea that his wife was involved in this relationship with richard matt. you can only wonder how he feels about having that painting now, anderson. >> i understand he spent three hours with state police. do you know anything about that?

>> this is the second time he's gone to speak with investigators. there's a possibility he will return for further questioning. he is discussing whatever joyce mitchell may have shared with him after the fact. investigators believe he was talking to her husband after the two inmates escaped. he wouldn't stop -- lyle mitchell wouldn't stop as he made his way into the police barracks to answer any questions, but we do know he has stayed in touch with his wife. he went to clinto county jail just yesterday. spoke to her for about an hour. his attorney says that he has absolutely no plans to testify on his wife's behalf. he was simply there to offer some support right now, anderson. >> all right. alexandra field, i appreciate the details. we're going to hear from the local district attorney andrew wiley in just a moment. also more breaking news. near disaster at chicago's midway airport. two loaded airliners coming right at each other, and what happened next. >> stop, stop.

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more now on the prison break. the expanding search area. the new images of what the fugitives might look like now. closing the block to be sure. joining us is the man who has to sort out all the legal angles and make the case clinton

county district attorney andrew wiley. thank you for being with us. randi kaye was just reporting that richard matt painted a picture of joyce mitchell's kids that she gave to her husband for their anniversary. have you learned more at this point about the relationship between matt and joyce mitchell? >> the relationship is really limited as far as what we know anderson. but yes this is one of the issues that has come out through the statements that joyce mitchell has provided us that she provided speed gloves to him, and he painted a picture of her children. she gave him a picture to do the painting and so she had that picture of her children done by matt. >> i understand it's not believed that either man used her phone inside the prison. do we know about outside the prison? we reported last week that mitchell's cell phone was used to make several calls to people close to matt. is that in fact the case and do you know who might have made those calls if it is?

>> well sure. the one call that we know that she made because she advised us and then we followed up with interviews is to matt's daughter. and one of the items that she was discussing at least that she advised us, the purpose was to discuss some paintings that matt wanted to do. other than that i have no information as far as phone calls that she made that she reported to us on his behalf. >> so as far as you know there was only one phone call made on her phone. it wasn't a case that she gave the phone to either matt or sweat. >> right. we continue to take the position that she never provided a phone to matt or sweat. >> earlier today, you said -- >> and she was making phone calls on the outside. >> she was making the phone calls on the outside. >> to your knowledge, there was only that one phone call to the daughter?

>> that's the one that she's identified to us. >> okay. earlier today, you said that joyce mitchell talked to matt and sweat about killing her husband. is it clear who initiated that conversation, whether it was joyce mitchell suggesting it or either of the men? >> based on what joyce mitchell has told us it was the men. it was matt that initiated that conversation that he was the one who was going to arrange to have that taken care of. that joyce would pick them up after midnight on june 6th drive back to her house, and then they would kill her husband. it's just one of these -- another unusual piece to this puzzle that we're looking at. >> and is it clear to you why she wanted her husband killed? is it because of this relationship she was having with matt? >> she hasn't really discussed with us whether it was really her idea or whether it was matt

or sweat's idea. which makes the issue really unusual. she didn't tell us she wanted matt or she was going to have matt and sweat kill her husband. it's just the topic of the conversation that came out that matt and sweat would do that once they got out. possibly -- i have no information as to why it would have happened or why they needed to do that. why wouldn't they just be leaving dannemora and go south or go west wherever they had to to get out of the area. >> right. because it seems to be an odd -- i mean, there were questions in previous days about whether this was some sort of a threat they had made against joyce mitchell, against her husband. but it seems odd to be threatening that if they wanted her, in fact to pick them up. if you want somebody to pick you up you wouldn't say once you pick me up you're going to drive over to your house and kill your husband. it would seem to be an inducement to getting her to pick them up. >> i would think so. i mean it's come get us, and then we're going to get out of

the village as quickly as we can before law enforcement find out that we're out of our cells and that we've escaped from clinton correctional facility. >> yeah. as far as what joyce mitchell's husband knew do you think he was told about the escape plan before the men had gotten away or not until after? >> i don't think it was until after based on joyce mitchell's statements. over the days from june 6th through her arrest, and then last saturday. we have no indication that she discussed that with her husband prior to the escape actually happening. >> and about his awareness of her relationships with either man, do you know how much he knew? >> we don't have any information whatsoever that he was aware that joyce mitchell had a previous relationship with david sweat up through the time that he was removed from the tailor shop or continuing thereafter with richard matt.

>> so even though he worked in the same shop you don't believe he had any knowledge of this? >> right. he was working in and out of the tailor shop that they were in as well as the other, from what i understand the other shops on that company. so no idea that they -- that he actually had any knowledge whatsoever of the relationship. >> all right. andrew wylie, i appreciate you being on again. thank you so much. coming up next a forensic artist walks us through what could be the many faces of these two fugitives. later, breaking news on the rachel dolezal saga. she's been asked to quit another post. we'll explain why and talk about another controversial statement she's making that the man and woman on her birth certificate may not be her birth parents. introducing the samsung galaxy s6 active only from at&t.

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breaking news just moments ago. andrew wylie confirming there's no indication that lyle mitchell husband of the alleged prison break accomplice had any idea that his wife and richard matt were in a sexual relationship. as we mentioned forensic artists have come up with new images of david sweat and

richard matt. new projections of how they might look after nearly two years on the run, disguises they might try to use. not drastically different, just the same two guys with a little more facial hair. obviously, they might have already tried to make more drastic alterations in how they look which is why dan simon was sent down today with someone who knows how to roll with those kind of changes. >> reporter: imagining what the fugitives might look like after more than ten days is the job of a forensic artist. >> i'm looking at what i consider immediate ways to dis disguise a face. >> reporter: gill has been doing these kind of sketches for more than 20 years. you're a former police officer and a forensic artist. when you look at this case in new york do you think that these guys have totally altered their identities? >> well, i would say that that's probably a very good possibility. my experience has been that when they're out and they're trying to get away they're going to do

everything they can to disguise themselves and make sure that nobody recognizes them. >> reporter: zamora is not involved with the new york case but we asked him to come up with some additional ways the fugitives might have changed their appearance. first richard matt. here's the original. and this is the altered creation. >> this person could probably evade capture. >> i would say so. at least initially. definitely. i gave him what i considered a full beard. there's a possibility he could be dyeing his hair. >> reporter: and with some eye wear it's clear the public would have a difficult time recognizing him. >> well i think they would think twice. i wouldn't say they would immediately pick him out. >> reporter: now, david sweat. this is the original mug. and this is how zamora imagined what he would do. >> changing the clothing and extending the facial hair, and then also adding some eyewear to

distract people from looking at their eyes as well. >> reporter: hair on both the face and head he says are the two main ways in which men could change their appearance. just like harrison ford did in "the fugitive." >> i didn't kill my wife! >> i don't care! >> reporter: these real life fugitives could be doing simple things to their faces and it's quite possible no one would spot them at least not immediately. that's why all these photos could be instructive, or maybe even instrumental in cracking the case. >> i think anything that keeps the public aware and keeps this case alive for people to be on the lookout is extremely valuable. >> reporter: dan simon, cnn, san jose, california. >> looking deeper into how fugitives stay fugitives and how to catch them. we're joined by michael tabman. also john cuff head of the

division at the u.s. marshals service. and former fbi assistant director chris swecker. the idea that they might attempt to change their appearance in your experience how common is that? >> it happens on occasion. the first thing they want to do is get out of the area. in this particular case all indications are that they're probably still up in that upstate area. whenever they get to where their pre-determined goal was, then at that point, there's a good possibility they'll alter -- or certainly would have done something. right now, it's fair to say that they don't have access to razors. >> which would entail going into a store. >> that's where mistakes would be made by these guys. >> the fact that authorities were expanding the search area do you believe that they somehow got a hold of transportation and are long gone or are holed up somewhere close by? >> no, i don't think so. i think they're expanding, because they feel like they've covered a certain part of that

area around dannemora. i think it's -- i still think they're operating on the premise that when they came out of that manhole, they were very surprised when there was no transportation there for them. they had every intention of getting out of the area very quickly, so they're on foot. it's logical to assume that they are somewhere indoors at this point, and that's why they're going door to door. >> michael, what do you make of that? they had several hours, about an eight-hour head start before their escape was actually discovered. if they did not have a vehicle, there's only so far, you know given the underbrush and forest area that they're in that they could have gone before authorities started to look. >> that's right. they could have made some headway, but again, they're operating on the negative. they have no proof that they left the area so now they're operating on the fact that they must still be in there absent any proof to the contrary. >> and john the idea now early on there had been reports that joyce mitchell's cell phone had been used to possibly contact

associates of either of these two guys. the district attorney now is saying that as far as they know there was only one phone call made it was made by joyce mitchell when she was outside to richard matt's daughter and related to some artwork that he wanted to do. that's obviously a disappointment because it's one less avenue that they can track. >> it is a little disappointing, but it's not a major setback. transparent to this manhunt that's going on up there. you still have the fugitive investigation going on in the background okay? that's going to exploit any and all communications within the prison to include computers that they might have had access to along with the inmate phones. they will identify cell phones and things of that nature and exploit that further. >> can -- in a prison can they look back at a search history that a particular inmate used? when a particular inmate logs on to a computer, is it registered as that inmate on the computer at that time? >> well again, each state and federal system they all operate

differently. some prisons have capabilities that others don't have. >> i see. okay. >> so you can do certain searches in these prisons. >> obviously, they'll be looking to any visitors that either of these two guys got, or you know other last known addresses or friends that they may have had, some sort of contact with. >> absolutely. it's a basic step to identify anyone that they may have been in contact in any way whatsoever. i would tell you, anderson that they aren't taking her word for that single phone call i guarantee you they're contacting everybody that -- any outgoing call or incoming call on that cell phone. they're running those leads out and probably have run most of them out at this point and i would also suggest they're probably not passing all that information to the d.a. who is passing off that information to the public. they're going to want to hold some of this very close. >> assuming that these guys have made it outside the immediate

area, how hard would it be for them to get fake i.d.s, whether it be a driver's license, passport any kind of identification? i mean technology is so advanced there are biometrics on file. >> that would depend on how much contact they have with the outside prior to this escape. if they did have contact with people via a cell phone or some other means, they might have arranged for that. and it's fairly easy to get a phony idea. but if they were caught by surprise and popped up out of this manhole, they had no support, no help i think it would be difficult for them to emerge and try to start scouting around to find i.d. now. so it would depend on whether or not they were helped on the outside. >> appreciate you all being on. thank you very much. just ahead, more breaking news. rachel dolezal accuse of harassment and ethical violations being asked to step down from another position in spokane spokane, washington. also the misunderstanding that chicago's midway airport sent one loaded airliner directly into the path of another. they came within a couple thousand feet of a collision

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breaking news about a near collision at chicago's midway. two commercial flights were looking to take off. a southwest flight and delta flight. air traffic controllers had cleared the southwest flight for takeoff. the delta pilots thought they had been cleared and here's what happened next. >> stop, stop. >> 1328 aborting. >> a scary moment for all involved. renee marsh joins us now with the latest. what do we know about what preceded this near-miss? >> we know that that southwest flight was actually cleared for takeoff. it started rolling down the runway when that delta flight started rolling down an intersecting runway so now tonight the f.a.a. is investigating why the pilot of the delta flight started taking off when it wasn't cleared.aa is investigating why the pilot of the delta flight started taking off when it wasn't cleared. so you have a plane one that

was traveling northwest, the other traveling northeast. so the planes were definitely on a collision course. had it not been for that air traffic controller we would be talking about a potentially deadly situation at midway airport tonight. >> and i just want to play what happened again, when the air traffic controller realized that both flights were trying to take off. let's listen once more. >> stop stop stop! >> delta 1328 aborting. >> he's stopping. >> what happens in a case after they abort? >> we do know that eventually that southwest flight was able to take off. but thankfully they stopped. we're talking about some 2,000 feet away from that intersection. so no one was hurt that we know of. we didn't get any information about that as far as any injuries. but they stopped very far from that intersection. it appears, as you mentioned at the top that the source of the confusion had to do with the two planes' flight numbers.

they are very similar. and when the controller cleared southwest airlines flight 3828 the pilot of delta flight 1328 may have gotten a bit confused. listen to that confuse play out after that close call. take a listen. >> for southwest, were we the ones cleared for takeoff? >> yes, you were doing what you were supposed to be doing. >> delta was rolling also? >> yes. he took your call sign. somebody kept stepping on you. i couldn't figure out who it was. that's why i reiterated that it was you i was clearing for takeoff. >> and you just saw the map of the runways there. it goes without saying the two planes should never be taking off at the same time on ber intersecting runways. >> glad it was caught. appreciate it. up next former naacp leader in spokane, washington rachel dolezal being accused of harassment and ethical violations and being asked to step down from a civilian police oversight board, this as she

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checking out the listing on zillow i sent you? yeah, i like it. this place has a great backyard. i can't believe we're finally doing this. all of this... stacey, benjamin... this is daniel. you're not just looking for a house. you're looking for a place for your life to happen. zillow. new trouble for rachel dolezal in a new claim about her birth parents. first she's been asked to step

down immediately from a civilian police oversight commission that she serves on. no word yet that she has. it follows the release of a report today concluding that she and two other members acted improperly during encounters with law enforcement and that her position as head of the local naacp in spokane washington was a conflict of interest. as for the parents' angle, listen to what she told savannah guthrie when asked whether she's ever lied about her race. >> no. because never have i been asked are you human or not human. race as a construct, again, is a fluid understanding. so i would say no. >> you know when someone asks you, are you black, are you african-american you know exactly what they're asking you. and for you to say yes, is that an honest answer? >> when somebody's asked, are you black, which i actually don't get asked very often, until recently a few days ago, then i say yeah. i am black.

>> do you understand why many people would think given your parents and your heritage that is at best a misleading answer? >> i can understand that but again, up to this point, i know who raised me. i haven't had a dna test. there's been no biological proof that larry and roseanne are my biological parents. >> savannah pointed out that the names are on her birth certificate. she challenged that saying there were no medical witnesses to her birth. once again, a lot to talk about tonight. joining us dr. drew pinsky the host of "dr. drew", and our legal analyst sunny hostin. what do you make of what she has been saying what she has been doing? >> well what she's been saying to answer that question is not much that we can hang any real significance to. she answers almost every

question with obfiscation, evasion. i don't know what she's talking about half the time. very few people can manage that evasiveness unless there's something disturbing going on. when people look at her and go there's something not right, that's often what causes them to feel that way and they would be right. >> when cornered about her birth parents, their names are on the birth certificate. she grew up she was raised by them. she now is saying i don't know that they are my birth parents. you know there was no witness to this, i've never seen a picture of my mother when she was pregnant. previously she told a story that she had been born in a tepee in montana, so when it served her purposes she certainly claimed a birth in a teepee with the dolezals in the dolezals' teepee but once that has been proven to be a lie, she's now switched to saying i don't even know if these are my

birth parents. >> exactly. i think what's so troubling about this to me and so many people i'm multi-racial. my mother is puerto rican and white, and my father is african-american so for me race can be very fluid. people want you to identify a certain way, perhaps by the way you look or perhaps by the language that you speak. so i think self-identification, the freedom to self-identify is extremely important. but it has to be based on honesty and authenticity and i think what we are hearing from rachel is rather than that sort of honesty and authenticity we're seeing i think an opportunistic person. so she sues howard for discriminating against her as a white woman, yet she reports hate crimes as a biracial woman in one report and as a black person in another. >> in "the new york times," first police report in 2005, she was described as white. by 2008 or 2009 she's being described in the police reports as black. >> as biracial and also as black. so that, i think, is troubling.

so i think that you know is she lying? is she using all these verbal gymnastics to hide something, some sort of pathology? you know i think that's probably what's going on. >> that is the pathology. the pathology is the evasiveness, is the obviskation. she can't say anything about anything. she can't say where she was born what her sexual identity is what her race is. something's very, very wrong with a human being that can only say i'm of the human race that's all i know about me. well, there's a lot more to be told. she's just not telling it. >> it's also interesting because when confronted with a statement she has given in the past which are not true she was not born in a teepee. apparently they lived in a teepee three years prior to her birth. i want to play something she said to savannah guthrie to explain these discrepancies.

>> i really feel like there have been some moments of some level of creative nonfiction where i, in order to survive or protect people that i love i have kind of had to explain or justify some of the timeline and logistics of my life in a way that made sense to others. >> so let me just break this down. a, calling a lie creative nonfiction is in itself pretty interesting. but also the stories she's talking about, i mean she has said that she was whipped with a baboon whip by her parents who punished her based on skin color, on variations within skin color in the family. she said this occurred when they were living in south africa. they were living in south africa between 2002 and 2006. she never lived in south africa. it was her parents and her younger adopted siblings black and biracial. a lot of her lies seem to give

her roots in the african-american strasburg until african-american struggle in this country. she described being whipped akin to whips that were used on slaves. >> she seems, anderson to connect the notion that because she is raising a black child, and two black children that that means she has to pretend to be black in order for that story to be authentic. i mean i'm a person who doesn't have a black mother who raised a black daughter. i mean, heidi klum is raising black children is not professing to be black. angelina jolie has adopted multi-racial children and she is not pretending to be any of those races. and so i think that she must be trying to establish some sort of roots so that she has that authenticity that is necessary. >> because if you look at the timeline she's been you know in her estimation, black for six years or so.

>> i'm almost more frustrated with the interviewers than i am this poor woman. there's something very wrong with this woman. i don't know if she has a personality disorder. but the interviewers are clearly not used to talking to people like this where you have to nail them down. you said you're born in a teepee that's a lie. you can't go, was it a lie? then you get smoke screens and evasiveness. there's something very wrong. and people have to get at really what's on here. i'm frightened for this woman. if she's in the zone that i think she may be in self-harm may not be too far down the line, so i'm concerned. >> let's hope that's not the case. dr. drew appreciate it. sunny hostin. just ahead, why many in the adoption community are offended by what rachel dolezal has said about race and parenting. i'll talk with an african-american woman whose adopted parents are white. we'll be right back. m. i did. in fact, i'm earning plenti points right now. but you're not doing anything right now. lily? he's right. sign up, and you could earn plenti points just for being a wireless customer. in the meantime, i just kick back and watch the points roll in. where did you get those noodles?

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five years ago, rachel

dolezal became the guardian of her adopted brother isaiah, a key moment, she says in her racial identity. >> this is on a very real connected level how i've actually had to go there with the experience not just a visible representation but with the experience and the point at which that really solidified was when i got full custody of isaiah and he said you're my real mom. and he's in high school. and for that to be something that is plausible, you know i certainly can't be seen as white and be isaiah's mom. >> those remarks are really interesting. it did not sit well with many people black and white, including many in the adoption community. joining me now is angela tucker

whose adopted parents are white. angela it's good to have you here. first of all, the term transracial, which has been thrown around a lot, not only by rachel dolezal, but a lot on twitter and stuff recently. i've always heard it and only heard it used in terms of transracial adoptive families where a child may be black, parents may be white. is that your understanding of the term as well? >> yeah exactly. the term is -- that's how i identify myself as a transracial adoptee. it's been difficult to see the word thrown around and used for someone who's trying to pass you know as black, when in reality they're white. and for the term for us there's so much integrity in it and it unites a lot of us transracial adoptees who have grown up in communities that look different than our physical bodies. and so there's integrity issue there with the word that we are trying to regain. >> and angela when you hear rachel dolezal say in that clip that she "certainly can't be

seen as white and be isaiah's mom," what goes through your mind? i think there are a lot of parents out there who are raising children of different races and people like you who have been raised by parents of a different race who would take issue with that. >> yeah. i mean it's hurtful. because certainly, my parents are white and they raised me and they raised me well. i am an african-american woman, and i don't have any qualms about that. i know who i am. and other transracial adoptive parents who have done the same thing where they have brought the culture of their child into their home in many ways and they've diversified their friends so that the child sees mirrors of their identity in other people. while not choosing to become that race. i think that would be really confusing for me to have my parents choose to be whatever race i am. it would feel completely disingenuous and deceitful, really. >> and charles, rachel dolezal has said she's never used the term transracial. people just called her that over the years, and she's never

corrected them. it just seems like though so much of her narrative, whether about race, who her father is. it seems to be based on lies lies of omission, outright lies, and lies designed to give herself roots in the african-american experience in this country. >> and she's creating a biography of burden. >> that's interesting, biography of burden. >> it's the biography of burden meant to place her and give her a sense of authenticity within the experience of performing blackness. and that is highly offensive to a lot of people. you almost don't have time to explain the kind of immovable racial battle fatigue that people actually experience who cannot put on an take off blackness like a blouse whenever it fits their fancy as she is able to do and has done. and to attempt to co-opt the experience that people have

including the suffering, including the burdens that go along with it and also living that existence with a trap door that she knows full well that she has, which is she can take out that weave, she can remove the tan, and she can go back at any moment to being a white woman that she was before that is a different experience than committing to anything and owning anything in a way that we experience blackness. >> yeah you know angela i heard one writer a columnist, i think it was for "the guardian" say that this is the ultimate in white privilege, the notion that you can -- that only a white person can adopt blackness when it suits them and, you know i think one writer described it like trying on a pair of shoes. i'm wondering what you would say to rachel dolezal? >> i would -- i think for someone who is passing as another race i think in the black community, there's plenty of room for allies for allies who are white is especially

important to see, you know white folks walk in in marches carrying black lives matter posters has a lot of merit. and i think it would be very profound to adopt that sort of mentality if you're really feeling that much empathy towards another race. >> particularly in a community like spokane, washington which is overwhelmingly white. there's not a huge african-american population. so to have a white ally be able to go to white communities and speak about issues of race would be a powerful thing. >> it would have been an amazing experience if she had operated in truth and honesty and said i was born in this kind of social construct, in this racial identity but i choose to live in this experience in order to experience it and be able to relate to it. and that would have been power

powerful and brave and interesting. this is not what this was. >> charles, good to have you on. angela tucker, great to have you on the program. thank you so much. that does it for us. "anthony bourdain: parts unknown" starts now. my great fear as a kid was a fear of failing. and that's hawaiian because i was born that way because that's expectation. you're hawaiian, you're going to be less. you're hawaiian, you're going to fail more. it's old. it's in you. it's part of your identity. but when i navigate a voyage, i know when the storm comes, it's going to take you to the bone. and if the storm keeps coming, you've got to stand up. that's just what you've got to do. it's this zone where you learn to make fear your best friend. you hold it really close to you and you open up the door to