their friend. >> my pleasure. >> to nominate a hero go to cnn heros.com. interesting show, interest conversations tonight. that is it for us. i'm going to see you back here tomorrow night. in the meantime mr. anderson cooper is up with "ac 360." it starts right now. good evening. thanks for watching. we have breaking news tonight. physical evidence that the two killers who broke out of a new york state prison two weeks ago might not have gotten very far. dna from david sweat and richard matt found in a cabin about 20 miles from where they made their break. police questioned the cabin owner who says he saw one of the killers flee. before they did, he told the story from restaurant owner terry belger. >> he approached camp he saw one person running away. just the back of him running. so he approached the cabin with

caution. a jug of water on the counter and a open peanut butter jar. >> no evidence they are getting any help on the outside. on the other hand we are learning new details about the help they received from the actual breakout. more on that shortly. first gathery tuchman on the hunt. >> reporter: the people who live in the hamlet of owl's head new york have never seen anything like this. >> we have developed evidence that the suspects may have spent time in a cabin in this area. we have law enforcement officers from around the state and around the nation here today searching for more evidence. >> reporter: the break in suggests the men need provisions and are desperate. there are lots of police here. right now we are within the area where these men could be based on the dna. adirondak spark huge. this is the topography that the searchers are dealing with. these men could be absolutely

anywhere. it's heavily wooded. there has to be a serious sense of alert for the police because any time they go into the woods they could encounter these men. everyone driving into the area gets checked including residents and news media. hello gentlemen, we're cnn. do you need me to open up my trunk? >> yes, sir. >> do you want me to open up my trunk? okay. other residents left. others refuse to. shannon clark just visited cabins he takes care of not far. be honest when you went into the cabins, was there concern about what you might fine inside? >> no. >> reporter: not at all? >> not at all. >> reporter: how come? >> you were armed? >> i was armed. >> the cabin where the dna was found is up this road and into the woods. the closer you get to the cabin the more law enforcent authorities you see. police are well prepared well

aware this could end violently. but this always been a peaceful town. gary how far is the prison from where the police are searching. >> the prison about a 50 mile drive. but the drive is windy. the walk depending how you go is 20 to 30 miles. although the adirondaks are mountainous, this is not mount everest. it is a relatively easy walk. particularly because these guys had 16 days to do it. they have not really gone far this. town has has about 500 people and surrounding county we are told by new york state police there are up to 1,000 police officers from different agencies right now in this county looking for those two men. >> new revelations today on how these two men managed to get the tools they needed to dig out. debra fairic joins us now. we are learning tools were allegedly smuggled in some frozen meat?

>> reporter: exactly right. joyce mitchell gave a colleague at the prison a corrections officer a piece of frozen hamburger meat. the men have hot plights in their cells to use it to make food. apparently that piece of meat didn't go through the metal detectedors. it's in that meat investigators believe come contraband was inside. that's what they are looking at now. >> wow. would the person she gave it to have known? >> that's an excellent question. the corrections officer who is now on paid leave -- it appears he did not know. his lawyer is saying if he helped in the escape it was completely unwith ittingly. at a place of work you have conversations with people, talk to them get to know them. it looks like rich matt was a mastermind. >> we are going to talk to that correction guard's attorney

coming up on the. practice. in terms what have the inmates have access to right now, is it clear if they are monitoring news broadcasts on the radio or communications? >> that's a good question. the area where that cabin is is very dense. you've got very bad cell service, according to all sorts of people i've spoken to. very bad cell service. some of the rabins have radio scanners. so there is a possibility they could be monitoring communication. you have got 1,000 different officers. something could come over a radio scanner. not clear if there was access to television or anything like that. but they are looking at that closely. so they have got to approach. they are trying to really sort of contain those two individuals in this -- in a perimeter that's still large and very porous. that's what they are focused. >> we know there was peanut butter and water in the cabin. do we know if there was anything. >> that's what officers are looking to determine, whether or not in fact there may have been

knives. this was a hunting cabin. there could have been knives or other types of weapons inside. that's the premise the authorities are working on that the men not only have these tools, which may have included a jab saw, but now may have additional. >> sleeping bags, a change of clothes. >> exactly right. because they were-high hiding out there. >> as searchers focus on this area where the dna was found in the cabin we want to get a feel for what it was like on the grounds. joining us keisha cluky. your sources, what are they telling you? i mean the remoteness of these cabins. how easily accessible are they? are they generally equipped with electricity? running water? >> from what i'm hearing is these cab ibs, and this one hunting cabin in particular from sources familiar with it have

said it's spartan. it has an out-house. doesn't sound like it has running water. a makeshift shower. so it's not like they are living in a hotel up in the hills there. as far as access to it there are roads. but it is very deep in the woods. it sounds like they might have hiked to it. there are hiking trails out of the village of dannemora. so perhaps they followed those right up to the hunting cabin. >> and given the somewhat close proximity of owls head to dannemora, have you seen a new sense of urgency in catching these two criminals? sounds like they are creating a perimeter perimeter. >> it's difficult to t. i've been up here several weeks now following this. and each time they have a new lead it really feels like this could be it. and then all of a sudden we finds out they are moving out of

the area. and perhaps this lead wasn't the lead. with this one, it does feel like it really makes sense on how they got there. the fact there is forensic evidence makes it feel a lot more definitive than any other of the leads. it makes it feel more like a sense of urgency. there is 1,000 officers now involved which is more than we've seen. before it was 600, 800. it sounds like they are really bumping up their forces here. >> thanks very much. reminder make sure you set your dvr so you can watch 360 any time you like. coming up gene palmer the corrections officer that debra mentioned -- we'll be joined by his attorney and a panel of law enforcement poefls. and later, a big move toward taking down the symbol that the killer drew inspiration from. the confederate flag still

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tonight's breaking news in upstate new york search teams now scrambling to contain escaped murderers david sweat and the richard matt after what authorities believe is a baying break in the case.

more than 1,000 law enforcement person earlyeel are now focusing on an area just west the clinton correctional facility at cabin that was broken into. joining me now, two professionals. john what do you make of these new leads. >> this is a game changer. anderson, a real game change he have. this is a significant break for law enforcement. >> the fact that forensic evidence was found? >> absolutely. the recent developments coupled with the sighting of a person. obviously it's not 100% it was one of these individuals but the likelihood or probability of that will bear out. one thing to keep in mind even though dna was found in the cabin, you really don't know how fresh it is or how long they have been in there. but through interviewing the owner of the cab skpin so on you can determine if there was

any weapons in there, if there was maybe a cabin that was full of food that they might have made a goodie bag to further go on the run, secrete themselves in the woods. game changer. especially dna from both of these individuals puts them together. you can rule out any alternate plan for another getaway car that might have been considered. >> lenny, to you, does this tell you that there wasn't really a plan b, that joyce mitchell may have been the only plan that they had, the fact this they are still relatively so close to prison, if this is in fact them? >> well i mean i certainly don't rule anything out, anderson. they are not in custody yet. but it's leaning in that direction. and as john said this is definitely a game changer. these guys once again have had their plans disrupted. they are certainly having to switch gears. and you know gwynn anyone's guess where they are at now. inside other cabins in the area that still have not been

unlocked. still waiting for summer to show up in adirondaks. so it's anyone's guess at this point. >> john you mentioned a while ago, a couple days ago your belief they would still be together. that they are codependent as long as there is a reason for them to be together. it seems as they were in this cabin, if it was both of them you were right. >> that's right. like lenny says you can't rule out other possibilities but what you have right now is the fact speak for themselves. hopefully this was a good sighting, and by law enforcement spreading the net out there, the webb it's coming down to it. it's important that these calls continue to come in from the people in the mountains or even elsewhere. it's transparent that it's

behind the scenes. you still have this fugitive investigation going on. law enforcement is not going to put all this eggs in one basket. >> right. lenny, i mean even if they were able to take some supplies from the cabin, we don't know what they may have been able to take they are not necessarily trained or prepared to run in this kind of terrain. gary said it's not mounted everest, but it's mountainous terrain. it's obviously very difficult terrain to move in. that's something i imagine search teams can continue to try to use to their advantage? >> yeah absolutely. i mean it's heavy terrain. they are not survivalists. they have no skill sets from what i understand with respect to the intelligence that you know the lead investigators got. i'm not sure how they are survive surviving, what sort of proifgss they have how long they have been bedding down in this particular cabin. those are all questions i'm sure law enforcement has answers to. however, they are still running. i'm hoping this perimeter was set up. it's tightened up a little bit.

they have enough assets on the grounds with respect to aviation support blood hounds over 1,000 officers in the perimeter inside andous swait teams, inside hostage negotiation teams. they are well prepared. i tip my hat to the men and women that have been up there the past 17 days working around the clock. these guys are the ultimate. absolutely. >> not assen easy search given this kind of terrain. >> right. >> guys i appreciate both of you being with us. as the manhunt has taken a new direction the investigation arizona well. gene palmer has been placed on administrative leave. he worked at the prison 28 years. no charges have been filed against him. certainly not yet. the district attorney has said that palmer could face accusations of facility at a timing the escape and promoting prison contraband. andrew brockaway joins us his attorney, joins us now. how well did your client know

david sweat and richard matt. i don't know if relationship was the right word but what was their connection? >> well, anderson, he worked on the honor block in clinton correctional facility. he has been at the facility for 27 years. he had daily dak with these two individuals. so it's fair to say that he knew them quite well. >> and i understand they sometimes exchanged information? >> that's fair too say. this is a very dangerous facility. and prison guards oftentimes rely on information from the inmates to keep the facility secure such as if there is going to be a fight or any kind of stabbing in the prison. it's good to have a heads up so they can keep the facilities secure and protect their brothers and sisters and the civilian employees. understand your client received a painting from richard matt. can you confirm that? and what would it have been a painting of? and why was it given? >> i don't want to confirm or deny that at this time anderson. i'm sorry. but there is a pending

investigation. that my client i should say is fully cooperative at this time. he submitted to 14 hours of questioning on saturday. i was there with him for. that he has been completely forthcoming. and this is a proud individual that's looking forward to getting back to work. >> just to be clear -- it's an obvious question but i have to ask it was your client in any way connected with their escape? >> i will go on record by saying that 100% no. he had no knowledge that these two individuals were trying to break out of correctional facility. >> is your client -- there is this report that debra fairic had that joyce mitchell may have hidden some sort of a tool in frozen hamburger meat given to a guard. is it your client that that meat was given to? >> i'm not going to comment on that at this time anderson. i'm sorry, but i wouldn't want to jeopardize the investigation. >> and -- but you can confirm your client has not been charged with a crime.

that's still a possibility though? >> that's up to the district attorney. i mean i have been told that they have had information, that they wanted to speak to mr. palmer for -- well a couple days after the breakout itself. and they didn't question him until saturday. i would say assume that's because they thought he had information that would be helpful in the investigations. but we walked out of there on saturday, no charges were filed. i haven't been notified that there are any plans to charge my client. >> and does he recall anything else about them that he has said to you that you can say? i mean what does he remember about them what they were like? >> obviously, this is a two -- for lack of a better word they are two psychopaths. they are master manipulators. they took advantage of i people. looking back on that now he is able to see that. >> does your client -- again, i don't know whether you can say this or not. das your client believe -- what was his relationship or acquaintance with joyce

mitchell, your client and also does he believe that he was in any way used by joyce mitchell? >> he believes that may be a possibility. again, he doesn't know what her role is in the escape. obviously, there has been allegations that she was involved with one or both of the inmates. but he did work on the honor bloc. her assignment at the tailor shop was in the honor block, so he does know joyce mitchell fairly well. >> did he have any comments to authorities about any relationships that joyce mitchell may have had with eermt of these two prisoners? >> i don't want to comment at this time anderson. i'm sorry to keep saying that but i don't want to jeopardize my client or the investigation. >> understood. mr. brackaway, i appreciate you being on tonight, though. thank you very much. just ahead, new details with the charleston church shooter and the manifesto that he posted on line. drew griffin tracks down the man

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certify lot of developments in charleston, south carolina. before we get to them i want to show you this. ♪ >> emotional service yesterday at emanuel ame four days after nine congress grants were murdered inside the church. we've sown powerful displays of strength and uniity and grace in charleston over the last few days. there will be difficult days ahead as the nine victims are

laid to rest. on wednesday president eulogy for the pastor of the church and a widely respected state senator. on wednesday, senator pinckney's casket will be at the state house in columbia for public viewing. the push to remove the confederate flag from the state grounds was pushed for today. more on that ahead. first new details on the confessed killer who told police he wanted to start a race war. martin savidge joins us now. what have you learned about the of the shooer's history. >> reporter: if you listen to the people who knew him growing up he wasn't a fire brand of racism. he also says in that manifesto that he wasn't raised by a family that had racial hatred. it appears the moment that changed him was the tray john martin george zimmermann case. he would have been the same age

as trayvon martin at that time. he did research on the internet, found a website that spoke to him and created a epiphany of hate. >> i believe he start acting on those feelings. >> april, he turns 21 apparently with money he gets he obtain as .45 caliber gun. then he begins a weird journey of both history and hate. and in it he visits some of the most know for nows slave sites around the south at the same time he visits some of the most revered sites for the confederacy. friends say he was also drinking a lot, allege he is taking pills and is talking more violently. then as we know that twisted tour ends up last week, last wednesday at the side door this church and the rest is tragic history. >> we know that he picked in a church, according to law enforcement because he had mentioned to them that he had done research and new it was an

important church not only in african-american history but in the history this country. what do you know and what details are there about president obama's visit late they are week? >> well, we understand that the president is coming. and of course the president knew the reverend of the church here reverend pinckney. it is a personal matter as well as being the president. on top of that vice president the coming, the first lady is coming as well. it will be held at an rein with the capacity to handle the amount of people coming. it will do a long way to continue the heal and continue the unity that mean people feel. >> as martin mentioned the shooter credits the website of the council of confederate citizens for changing the way he viewed the world. we tracked down the webb master. >> reporter: the council of conservative citizens believes that whites are under attack

that whites need to wake up before the race is destroyed. on its website, it list black on white crimes it says go unreport, points of view almost identical to the so-called manifesto and reasoning on the website owned by the charleston shooter, justifying an attack on black people praying in a church. this is one of the movement's rallies posted on the internet. the man speaker kyle rogers is according to the southern property law center a leader in the cfdc movement. >> there is only one argument that they use for every single cause on the left wing. and you saw it right here with the win protesters that one side. every single person that yelled sergeant negative. said the exact same thing, they yelled you are racest. >> reporter: he owns a flag selling website. in speeches he urges followers

no backing down to what he calls the left wing media. >> you have got stand up to them. and you win. don't go on if defensive. always be on the offensee when you talk to the other side. >> reporter: but today? >> at his home outside charleston, he was anything but a fire brand racist. instead, he hid behind his door. kyle? drew griffin with cnn. how are you doing? can we ask you a question about the flags you sell? you can't say anything to us kyle? rogers instead handed us a piece of paper telling us to contact this man, jared taylor a spokesman for the movement which condemns the shooter, but not what the shooter may have learned from the cmcc website. >> facts that are hard to find because they are essentially taboo in the united states today. so we have absolutely no apology

for publishing the facts. >> reporter: the fact is these white supremacists live mostly on the internet. their blog, they share their views that whites are being attacked. and they all deliberately stop short of inciting any calls for violence. >> like any other human being i don't like the idea of somebody marching in and shooting people. >> reporter: bob has been in the white supremacist movement for decades, runs his own website warning of a white genocide and says the charleston shooters actions are intolerable, but says so are so many other shootings where blacks kill whites. >> there are going to be a large number of murders this week. i can tell you that. >> reporter: but there are very few murders where the shooters seems to want to start a race war, which is apparently what he told the police. few shootings like that. and very few shootings where a young white kid from a very

white neighborhood goes into charleston south carolina into a very black church and kills nine people. >> yeah. what am i supposed to do about it? >> drew joins me now. how big is this so-called movement? >> reporter: you know they would argue with what i'm about to tell you, but it is tiny. it's formed out of an old group in the '60s that tried to fight segregation in schools. at an annual conference they had about 75 people reportedly. that's at their national annual conference. which i might point out is about a quarter of the size of people that's on the sidewalk here in front this church just tonight, anderson. >> do we know if the shooter actually went to those website or if there was any communication between them? >> reporter: we don't know of any communication. i'm sure the fbi and other authorities are looking into that. but we do know only that the shooter claims to have visited one of the website. he mentioned it in the manifesto that's attributed to him. but we don't know of any

communication between these groups. and these groups deny they even knew this kid. >> drew, appreciate the effort. thanks very much. ahead breaking news. walmart says it's no longer going to sell the confederate flag merchandise it sells. and south carolina's governor says it's time to remove the confederate flag from the capital grounds. a couple of presidential hopefuls would not weigh in on what should she should do. although they are not shy about speaking out about so many other things. to create a more advanced vehicle, you use the most innovative technology available. to craft a more luxurious vehicle, you use the most skilled hands on earth. like ones that spend 38 days creating a lexus ls steering wheel. or 2,000 hours calibrating an available mark levinson audio system. the high-tech,

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say it and see it with the x1 voice remote from xfinity. confederate. breaking news tonight. the world's biggest retailer just made a big announcement. walmart says they are removing all confederate flag merchandise from stores. that's not the only development in the wake of the charleston tragedy with the confederate flag still flying on the capital grounds. the governor nikki hayley said it was time for the flag to go. >> today we are here in a moment of unity in our state without ill will to say it's time to move the flag from the capital grounds.

>> a senator put out a statement stating? part in the worst of tragedies we've -- republican party chairman previous us quickly endorsed the moved and a string of republican candidates and would be candidates quickly got on board.: from scott walker i'm glad at nikki hayley is calling for the confederate flag to come down. the gop momentum got started on saturday when 2012 candidate myth romney tweeted take down the confederate flag from the south carolina state capital. many see it as a symbol of hatred remove it now. governor romney is not running. former forchor george pataki who is running was out in front of it. keeping him on it some who are

vocally supporting governor hayley today were reluctant to support the movement before today. jeb bush revealed he would not weigh in on what should happen in south carolina. >> this is an issue they should debate and work through and not have a bunch of outsiders going in and telling them what the to do about that. >> rick santorum said it doesn't rise to the national level. >> i don't think the federal government or federal candidate should be making decisions on everything or opining on anything. >> hikal huck abequestioned the notion of asking about these things. >> everyone is being baited with this question as if somehow that has anything to do whatsoever with running for president. and my position is it most certainly does not. >> debatesed is what he said. keep in mind candidates in both parties routinely field all kinds of questions on all kinds of issues federal, state,

local, or personal. from budget deficits to boxers to briefs to say birth control. >> one of the things i will talk about that no president has talked about. i think the dangers of contraception. the whole sexual liberty idea. >> that he'll talk about but not the flag. governor huck aby alsoist has plenty to say about that. >> if the democrats want to insult the women of america by making them believe they are helpless without uncle sugar coming in and provide them a precipitation each month for birth control because they cannot control their lib i haddo or reproductive system without the help of the government then so be it. >> mr. huck aby hasn't been shy about same sex marriage against it. or marijuana leg legislation in any form against that of course there is nothing wrong with those positions. the opponent is he took a position, didn't punt it. the question is why did so many

candidates who answer so many questions about so many things dodge the flag question imclag it's not a presidential candidate's business? one possible explanation whand to senator john mccain during his run in 2000. he said the confederate flag was a symbol of racism and hedged and called ate symbol of heritage. it was a decision he later regretted. >> i feared if i answered honestly i could not win the prime aempl i broke my promise to always tell the truth. >> this time whether the 2015 candidates are deep down against flying the flag or deep down for it or just don't care politics south carolina republican primary politics may have something to do with what they have been saying about it. john cane joins us now. i mean the fact that some politicians and candidates are clearly saying the flag should

come down while others are punting saying it's not even their place to weigh in -- what are the calculations you see in this? >> what we have seen anderson -- this happened in past presidential campaigns as well you mentioned the mccain bush back in 200. this is a case study in politics. some politicians are willing to step out and take the lead. governor bush did say do the right thing. he got out early. governor romney got out early. he is not on the ballot. others punted a bit and now trying to jump on the band wagon. what do you have? a case study in people willing to take risks take the lead and others who are more cautious. the governor nikki hayley changed the politics this issue in a huge way. up until today it's been the safe position for conservatives to say this is a state issue, leave it to the people of south carolina. i think as you correctly point odd out. a that's a cop out for anybody running for president. b, it's especially a cop out if

you are a quote, unquote values candidate saying i don't think this pun should be able to get married because they are gay, i don't think this person should be able to get an abortion because i think abortion is wrong. the flag is art part of the debate, race is part of the debate. if you want to be president of the united states how can you duck that question? >> some said it isn't appropriate for national discussion. but they will brag about being the party's ab re ham lincoln and certainly lincoln thought the flag was a big deal. >> you can understand the candidate in montana, maybe you could understand them saying i'm not from south carolina especially if you are from a northern state, you cannot understand. but presidency is a unique office. as president obama noted, he is said to 11 12 14 times been send to the briefing room after mass shootings. you are asking for the bully

pulpit and the great benefits. and occasionally when tragedy hits the country, whether it's 9/11 the job as president sometimes is to lead and console the nation. as you do that you are making values judgments. it's part of the job. >> public opinion is vocal f. the legislature put it off, people get distracted people move on it's possible the flag could ends up staying where it is? or do you think this is a tipping point? >> i think it is a tipping point. from calls and e-mails in south carolina today governor hayley a did this because she believes it is the right thing to do. and b, this will be a tough fight. she needs a two thirds vote in the legislature to take the flag down. the other part is what do you do with the monument? the flag flies over a monument to the confederate war dead. does that stay? the governor wants to move as quickly as possible. there are some saying they could

start the conversation in the legislature tomorrow. if not, maybe when they come back in july to do budget issues. again she needs two thirds vote in the legislature. look at the pictures behind her. lined up conservative political interests, people in the tlurge who knew and respected the late senator pinckney have said it's time to do this and they have not been willing to do this in the past. she also lines up business communities saying this is the best thing for the state. she believes she has the momentum at her back. and she knows if it's month and hasn't been done does it dissipate? she knows to put her pedal to the metal. coming up new details from inside the emanuel ame church the night of the massacre. what reverend pinckney's wife is saying the moment following the gunfire. how she protected her 6-year-old dpaur and how she broke the news to the children about their father, who did not survive. or stop to find a bathroom? cialis for daily use,

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sty more sickening details on the shooting at the ame church. we've learned the wife and 6-year-old daughter of reverend clemente pinckney heard the gunfire and hid under a desk in the pastor's office during the

shooting. she tried to reach her husband on the cell phone. got no answer. she later learned her husband, the girl's father and the pastor of the church died in the attack. i spoke to her just before the brad cast. >> i know the refuse rent pinckney's wife was in the church with her daughter when the attack happened and called it in to police. can you take us through her story of that night? i know you have talked to her. >> jennifer said she heard some gunshots. and she paused for a minute and then she started hearing more. and she thought something was going on. >> she wasn't at the bible study? she was in a separate room? >> no. she was in a separate room. she was in the pastor's office. >> so she heard the shots. and then what? >> she heard the shots. and then she -- she grabbed the

baby -- she had her 6-year-old daughter. and she went under the desk and called 911. >> and i understand the 911 operator told her to stay on the line with her? >> yes. stay on the line until we get there. and she helped to ease her fears that you will be okay everything is fine we're on our way. and they arrived and took her out of the office. but she didn't go to the scene where the actual murders occurred. >> and i understand that it was his -- his wife had to deliver the news to their daughters that their dad had been killed and you tried to help her with that conversation. >> yes. yes. jennifer -- i mean very strong. she did an excellent job, if i

might say so with informing them that something terrible had happened, and your daddy is no longer with us. and the oldest daughter started tearing up a little and she talked -- she looked both of them in the eye and said it's going to be okay. we're going to be fine. we need to be strong for the others. >> a conversation no mother should have with their child. obviously. i know you are friends with other survivors from that night. the sunman reportedly spared pollee shepherd's life so she could tell others what happened at the church. and there are reports now that he tried to shoot himself but he was out of bultsz. i understand that you talked to pollee and she has a different remembrance? >> he did say to ms. shepherd that -- he asked her, did i shoot you? and she said no. he said good because i need

someone to -- who could survive to tell the story because i am going to kill myself. >> so he told her that he was going to kill himself, but she didn't actually see any attempt or know if he actually did? >> right, right. >> okay. and you mentioned felicia sanders, her son tywanza was killed right in front of her. >> yes. >> and she reportedly played dead by laying in her own son's blood. you told me there was blood all over what she was wearing. >> i also understand she laid on 2067 her granddaughter in order to protect her. is that right? >> yes, yes, she did. >> how was she? >> i visited felicia yesterday, the sanders. and she is doing -- she's doing as well as can be expected. you know she's surrounded by

family, and friends, and everyone, you know loving on her. and rendering up their support. so she is coming along pretty good. >> you know, i spoke to a number of family members last week. and obviously in that bond hearing some talked about forgiveness and fact said to this shooter that they forgave him, which is an incredible thing. i also talked to another family member who said, look it's too early to talk about forgiveness. i'm not there yet. where are you? i mean it's understandable not want to if you are forgive somebody who has just committed a mass murder. hard to imagine forgiving them. >> yes. well anderson, i know i must forgive, but right now, no. no. to forgive is a process. and i haven't gotten to that point yet. >> understandable. sylvia, thank you so much for

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