>> thank you for joining us." "ac 360" starts right now. good evening. thank you for joining us. a new and major development in the new york prison break. the corrections officer, gene palmer who passed the meat has been arrested. earlier tonight the local da told us palmer had also given matt and david sweat access to the catwalk that they eventually used to escape. jason carroll has the the breaking news joins us now. what are you learning about the charges against this guy, gene palmer? >> there are several charges anderson we are hearing about. this according to his attorney who i speck tooke who. he said gene palmer charged

with promoting dangerous contraband destroying evidence official misconduct in terms of destroying evidence that could be reference to some of the paintings that richard matt has made. you heard about those in the past. apparently he gave may have given some paintings and/or drawings to gene palmer as well. and then shortly after gene palmer found out about what happened with the escape he allegedly destroyed some of the paintings and/or drawings. that could be part of the reason why you see that destroying evidence charge. i also as i said, i spock to his ahis -- i spoke to his attorney. he said his client is very upset. his client had no knowledge at all of what was inside that frozen chunk of hamburger meat that joyce mitchell you already know about her, that she convinced gene palmer to pass that on to richard matt. we have two prison employees, joyce mitchell you already know was charged in her connection with the escape.

now you have gene palmer who has also been charged. once again his attorney says he did not know what was inside that slab of meat. his attorney also says anderson he had absolutely no knowledge of any escape plan. anderson. >> we should point out the attorney is saying he didn't know obviously there was something hidden in the meat not obviously, the claim that he dent know. he did and the attorney has admit heedted he neglected to put the hamburger meat through a metal detector that would have discovered this? >> that's correct. and once again, this was a clear violation of prison policy. that is something that was acknowledged by his attorney early on. but he just wanted to emphasize though thee had made that mistake, and he just wanted to emphasize this was also a man who relied on matt and sweat over time as a source. often time he would lean on both of them for information about other inmates there in the

prison who could have caused trouble. so he said there was some sort of a relationship there. he was hesitant to use the word trust. but he said he didn't seem to be anything unusual about wanting to pass something along. it was a violation of prison policy. not checking that meat. not passing it through a metal detector. that's part of the reason why you are seeing some of the charges we are seeing here tonight. >> we are going to talk to a prison expert coming up. one thing he raises to night. i think a very important point, we don't know the answer to it. did gene palmer have approval to use richard matt and david sweat as basically as a source as somebody who gave them gave him information about what was going on in the prison. because there are protocols for how you are supposed to actually get information from inmates, for how you are supposed to use an inmate in that capacity. not something you are supposed to do unilaterally on your own without some sort of higher up approval. we don't know if we had that approval. that would be something certain certainly investigators will

want to look at. do we know when the arraignment is going to take place, jason? >> a couple things. first about that arraignment -- i'm told from his attorney the arraignment will take place sometime tonight, that time not set, at least not yet. but in terms of the source -- i think this has something to do with prison culture. often times whether it as the clinton correctional facility or in california at l.a. county -- you know, i have heard abutout this before guard relying on inmates to try to get information abut other inmates that will cause trouble. the unwritten rule if you will. the way that prisons operate. it is just a reality. officers and prison guards who are there have to be able to get information about other inmates there who are going to be cause trouble, who might be trying to cause a fight, who might be trying to eliminate someone, if there are rival gang members working inside prisons and you

are gig truetrying to get information. it's not unusual to try to get sourced information. not something written on the books. something that happens. something really a part of prison culture. andersen. >> jason. i appreciate the update. continue checking with you. as the story develops. there is a whole new dimension. joining us jeffrey toobin senior legal analyst. jeff what do you make of this? how serious are the charges against gene palmer? >> it is very serious. and you interviewed gene palmer's lawyer last night. and his -- his argument was very clear. joyce mitchell had deceived and misled gene palmer about her relationship with the inmates, about what was inside themality and this arrest indicates that the, the police don't believe that. they belief that gene palmer was at least involved in improper activities in relationship with the inmates and perhaps, now

this is not quite clear yet, he may have been involved according to the authorities' theory with the plans to make the escape. >> but these charges don't necessarily indicate that they believe he was involved in the escape plan itself it could be viewed as just even if he was duped he violated prison approximately see, hepolicy allegedly destroyed evidence and that's what the charges are based on. >> those are not just violating prison policies. he's arrested for crimes. he is not arrest forded for violating the internal procedures. so it is a very serious matter. the way i read this very preliminary indication is that the prosecutors are leaning on him and trying to get him to tell anything he knows about the escape. while leaving open the

possibility of charging him with some complicity with the escape. >> jeff toobin appreciate you calling in. thank you again. the attorney, andrewgave us an indication. we spoke earlier this evening before the new charges came to light. mr. wiley, i want to ask you about the investigation into what happened inside the prison. i speckoke to the attorney for gene palmer the one who brought the meat from joyce mitchell to matt and sweat. he said his client had no knowledge of what was in the meat is that your understanding as well. >> that is our understanding. speaking with joyce mitchell she advised us that gene palmer in all likelihood had no idea that what he was bringing themality meat in had the hacksaw blades in it. and gene palmer the statement he provided and he took a

approximately polygraph test that came up positive he had no knowledge of the hacksaw blade in the meat. >> they tripped a breaker to the cells and telling him they could fix the problem they've had simple hand toochltz canls. can you confirm that is true or not? >> there is information he allowed them to go into the back of the cells, in the catwalk area and fix the breakers that were there. at that point in time the information we had, they all had hot plates. it was to -- to help the breaker, fix the breakers so they could use their hot plates to cook their food. >> so so he knew they were going back behind the cells to the catwalk area? >> correct. he actually took them behind there to do that. >> were they alone there? or were they with him at all times? >> it is my understanding they were with gene palmer at the time.

>> do you have any indication why palmer chose not to put the hamburger meat through a metal detector? because that would seem to be prison policy? >> it would be prison policy. but in situations i think of this nature andersen, they are the guards develop these friendships with some of the inmates. they also will have inmates assist with information they can obtain in the facility involving other inmates all most like on the outside using a confidential informant for a drug buy. >> we are also hearing more from other inmates about the relationship between mitchell and sweat. one former inmate estimated the two had sex more than 100 times which certainly sounds like an extensive and most likely conspicuous relationship is that how mitchell described it as well? >> absolutely not. she never described the relationship between her and

sweat in any manner of that nature. i'm not sure who the inmate is that is providing that source. but we don't have that information. >> that in terms of where they did this that same former inmate who said the more than 100 times, said that they would go to a storage closet. to you knowledge is there a storage closet in the tailor shop? >> there are a number of storage closets in the tailor shop. there is also from what i understand a -- a bathroom within the tailor shop as well. the storage units that i observed -- i can't imagine anything could go on there with the exception of putting in paper supplies or or the supplies they needed in the tailor shop. >> just in terms of -- trying to get to the validity of what the inmayte said he said more than 100 times with sweat, would it be accurate to say she had

sexual relations more than 100 times with matt. >> absolutely not. >> not that frequently? >> no. >> i think there is quite a bit of exaggeration going on there with the source. >> obviously you have a lot going on. the manhunt is not your responsibility. there are reports there was a bloody sock found at the cabin where they were. can you confirm that? does that indicate one of the men may have been injured and if so do you know which one? >> well there is a sock that has been recovered listed as white and red. and the red could obviously be blood. there was -- i don't have a full detail on the, the analysis that was conducted on the evidence. that was secured from the cabin and brought done to albany for testing. but i do know that a dna profile was from one of the socks. what particular sock it was, relative to blood being on a sock we are talking these men

have been out in the wilderness out in these -- conditions for the last 18 days. and, not sure what type of footwear they were they were wearing. but, certainly they're feet could have been, cut up bloody as a result of the -- the walking through the woods. that they have been doing the last 18 days. >> so we are not, it's not clear how much blood there was, whether a blister or something like that or injury. andrew wiley, i do appreciate your time. thank you so much. >> your'swell're welcome. thank you. >> a lot more ahead on this development and what a former warden has to say about the arrests and what we are learning went on at the prison. later as the the slain pastor of charleston's emanuel ame lies in state, the same bible study class where he and eight others were murdered that bible study class is just getting under way. one week to the day later in the

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his lawyer's account, just a trusting guy, charged with destroying evidence and expect to be arraigned tonight. what he dade cording ingdid was let killers sweat and matt on to the catwalk behind their cells to allegedly trouble shoot electrical problems their hot plates were causing. meat provided by joyce mitchell who was having sex with matt. now if all of this sound to you more like minimum sanity at the maximum security you are not alone. late today we learned more than a dozen investigators from the state inspector general's office descended on the clinton correctional facility looking at security lapses. we'll talk about that with a former warden. first, gary tuchman on the

manhunt. >> reporter: a major road into the town of owls head new york. closed to outsiders but full of law enforcement officers. every quarter mile or so armed state police stand patrol next to wooded areas looking for any signs of fugitives richard matt and david sweat. more than 2,200 leads have now come in say police. >> we receive reported sightings each day and we have investigated every one. we will stin to acontinue to ensure the public every lead will be investigated until exhausted. >> reporter: exhaustive describes the searching. state and federal law enforcement members doing great searches in different parts of franklin county where owls head is located. dna samples from the killers were found in a cabin in the wood and understandably many owners and guests of others in the woods are staying away while the searching is going on. when we walked up to this cabin we didn't expect to find anybody. but we found this man.

>> a lot of people have left their cabins. >> al bought the vacation cabin in adirondack park years ago and is retired and lives here permanently. >> do you feel safe you are here in the middle of the search zone for the two killers? >> yeah. >> you are not going to leave? >> no. >> how come? >> no reason to. >> the 81-year-old lives with his 141 pound dog yoda and says odds are tiny that else stayees would seek his cabin. he is armed. >> shot gun. deer rifles. >> reporter: al mossy believes the killers won't navigate without of the wilderness without police seeing them. he is convinced they will be captured though it is taking some time. something police are addressing. >> time is always a concern. it generally works against the police in the immediate response. but it works typically for law enforcement, long term as we begin to coalesce around the search area bringing in more partners. >> al mossy does say his

79-year-old girlfriend is scared. so they're spending the nights together for now. but he told her. >> i'm not changing my life for this at all no. >> you are not the least bit uneasy? >> no do i look it? >> no he does not. >> do authorities think matt and sweat could not be in this area? >> police believe they're still here. that's why there are more than 1,000 federal, state, and local police forces on the streets. they'll continue to be here tomorrow. they anticipate the possibility of a violent end. they are ready for that eventuality. they don't have any proof that these men are armed. no one has the reported a gun being stolen. as we just showed you. hunting cabins have guns many of them. many people don't want to come back here and go in their hunting cabins to make sure everything is okay. the sa theiry anar scenario police feel they may have found a gun and be armed and dangerous. >> given a lot of cabins are not used all year. many would not be leaving a gun

in a cabin that they abandon for much of the year. >> they probably wouldn't. but the scenario that a lot of police officials could be happening here is that the guys are going into many cabins because they're trying to find a gun. if they get lucky and find a gun, then that would make them concerned. >> got it. gary appreciate the reporting. a lot to talk about with the man who led the hunt for eric rudolph. first, let's talk about gene palmer now charges being brought against him. what does that tell you? does it raise more concerns what was going on and the security in the prison? >> it really does. i think the best you can say about the prison. it was loosely run. more like a prison camp than a maximum security prison housing murderers on death row and severing life sentences. it really is shocking to see how loose this prison was run. >> somebedody who killed a police officer, dismember and tortured someone else being on an honor

block, allowed behind the catwalk, giving gifts to the guard. raises a lot of questions. about the manhunt itself there is now, there is evidence about a bloody sock was found. it is hard to tell much from that because we don't know how much blood there were -- there was on the sock. is it just from a blister? it would be totally understandable there would be a bloody sock after spending several days out in the wilderness. >> yeah i don't think they're going to focus too much on that except again, maybe get some dna off that just to confirm some things. i think their assumption is they're on foot at least. whether they're barefoot, not barefoot whether they have the proper equipment, they probably don't. i think they have been improvising and making things up since they popped out of the manhole. once they got flushed out of the cabin it became more exaggerated shall we say. and i think their desperation level is probably going up incrementally as the days go by. >> you see no sign indication that they're getting outside help somewhere. >> not at this point. it doesn't, there is no indications i have seen that they're getting outside help.

maybe they have a cell phone, but it would be really suicidal for somebody to try to break through the perimeter and come help them. so they're really helpless even if they have a cell phone. >> when somebody looks at eric rudolph who was able to spend, five years on the run. it was interesting last night i think it was, you were saying he stayeden a enin the same geographic area for all that time. what allowed, what enabled him to do that that these guys might not be able to do? what's the difference between them? >> he knew the area very well. he would disappear for weeks at a time. and he would go up into the, the national forest. this was the very densely forested national forest area. he would set up hides in places preposition food. he had multiple locations. we saw, personally saw at least three locations he pre-prepared. he placed sources of food. he was aware of. there was a grainery nearby.

he had stolen grain and food stuff. and in a backpack. he had stolen 55-gallon barrels, buried them underground and stocked himself. he was ready to go. >> the key difference being that he was able to plan this in advance. preposition supplies which there is no indication these guys had any outside help in doing that. they have been locked up for so long. it's not even clear they've have friend left on outside who they could call. >> they may not know what direct thaergs head -- directs they're headed. they're not master outdoorsmen. maybe not outdoorsmen of any kind. they do not know the terrain. i envision them stemumbling around. maybe at night. during the daytime hunkered down. wait things out. >> how critical is the fatigue factor for the two guys and for the searchers? >> it is definitely a factor for the bad guys people on the run, each day goes by they don't have

food water exposed to the elements. they're zapped. they may, what they call tap out. the law enforcement there is a fatigue factor there as well. expenditure of resources. running 300 miles to another location. running down rabbit holes they have been running down. based on tips and leads from the public. then running back over there. run night time shifts. daytime shifts. long shift. i think there is an impatience sets in. that's where the cooler heads in the command post have to pull back on the reins. >> got to pace it out. be deliberate. make sure nobody gets hurt at this point. they can ambush and they will probably see the hunt the searchers before the searchers will see them. and they will if they have a weapon they will have the opportunity to use that weapon. >> right. fascinating. appreciate you being with of again. thank you very much. of next a former deputy warden weighing in on the arrest of the prison guard, second worker at clinton correctional facility facing charges and get his take on what was going on inside the

prison. frozen meat access to the catwalk for the escapees and much more. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ food should be good. strawberries should sing. lettuce should be dirty. dressing, clean. debates should be healthy. hatchets buried. tables should be full. and good food should be good for you. we're not saying these are the rules we should all live by. but it's a good place to start. panera.

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>> prison guard gene palmer charged in the escape of david sweat and richard matt. now you have heard plenty of what matt and sweat had to endure. they could visit inmates. cook in their cells, grill hamburgers with or without hacksaw blades. allowed to wear civilian clothing or take off said clothing in the company of the prison seamstress perhaps to better inspect the stitching. items including the chopped meat that could and should have gun through metal detector did not. the prison worker who failed to scan it gene palmer expected to be arraigned tonight. that is his photograph. you heard the distrack it toern say, he apparently was scammed into giving the escapees access to prison catwalks which reportedly did not get the regular inspections they should have. even though the honor block has been shut down. procedures at the prison have been called into question. and new investigation is under way. our guest, ed gaven, former dep

seedep -- deputy warden. he joins us now. >> what do you make of the fact gene palmer has been charged with number of crimes destroying evidence allege lead destroying the paintings or drawings that richard matt made for him, bringing in this contraband, violating, violating the policies here what does it tell you about what was going on inside that prison? >> well obviously it was a culture of corruption. i mean it was certainly undue familiarity. why would an inmate draw a picture for an officer? why would the officer accept it? and then why would the officer bring in chopped meat for an inmate? it doesn't make any sense. >> this is an officer also who has been on the job for more than 20 years. you would think somebody like that would over time i don't know if they get less skeptical or more skeptical, certainly be aware of all of the whole range of possibilities for what prisoners are capable of. >> lot's face it the inmate's job is to escape. the officer's job is care custody, control and

supervision. obviously this officer lost sight of that. >> how easy is it for an officer to be manipulated by a prisoner? is this something you see a lot of? >> i have seen it over the year. we had a case a couple years ago where a male correction officer brought in a uniform for a female inmate and then he escorted her out after the midnight shift ended. he was caught. so it does happen. people fall in love in prison. >> when you have a civilian employee they don't have the same level of training certainly as -- mitchell didn't have the same level of training certainly hat gene palmer has. and yet, he is claiming she was able to dupe him. >> well first of all, gene palmer is a peace officer, an officer of the court in a position of public trust. he has statutory powers of arrest. as such that's why we pay him the big bucks and put inmates under his charge. she is a civilian no statutory authority. she minds her seamstress shop. that should be it. >> the idea he would accept

hamburger meat from her and not put it through the mel tal detector does that surprise you? >> yes. first of all, what he should have done. once she asked him to bring in frozenmality meat he should have assumed there was contraband in it. why would she ask him to do that in the first place? she knows the procedures everything is subject to inspection all people and items into the facility. what i would have done accepted it and reported it to my superiors or inspector general and would have made the arrest then and there. >> it would have never happened? >> exactly. >> the notion that a, he wouldn't put it through the metal detector but also that he would, he apparently had used these guys or one of these guys as an informer about what may happen about prisoners acting out, any prisoners who might become violent, is there a procedure for that? because it is not clear to me if had informed higher-ups he was using guys in that capacity or

something he was doing on his own? >> we don't have free agents at the officer rank. when an inmate is committing an illegal act within the confines of the institution, and the officer works that informant he needs to take that to a superior deputy superintendent the sergeant or tour commander. that's how it should have been handled. from there make the determination if they kick that up to inspector general. that's what should have happened. she should have been arrested right there. anderson the thing that troubles me most is this is another, the second allegation against ms. mitchell. she was also charged, undue fa familiarity earlier. it shouldn't have happened. >> the idea that gene palm were goud and show the catwalks to these guys allegedly with the idea of having them fix something because a breaker was going out, does that make any sense? aren't there maintenance people? >> absolutely.

they have electricians they have plumbers, they have laborers and usually falls under what we call support services. those are people who have access they have the keys they have all the materials and tools necessary to affect repairs. we don't subthat work out to inmates if you will. >> you have no doubt there is a larger problem at this prison? >> no doubt. >> ed gaven, appreciate you being on. >> pleasure thank you. >> ahead in south carolina hours after the body of clementa pinckney arrived to lie in repose bible study resumed inside the charleston church where he and eight others were murdered one week ago. ♪ ♪ (vo) you can pass down a subaru forester.

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breaking news in charleston south carolina the emanuel ame did something remarkable tonight. inside the very same room where nine people were murdered one week ago, bible study resumed. it could not have been easy. a step forward though certainliencertainly en in the wake of immeasurable loss. you see the body of state senator clementa pinckney

arrived. senator pinckney lay in repose inrotunda. he served the state starting as a page. on friday at his funeral, president obama will deliver the eulogy. martin savidge, what was it like at the church tonight, i cannot imagine? >> you know i thought it was going to be difficult, telling about last sun day's service. telling you what it was like to go to the bible study. last sunday they reclaimed the church the parishioners. today they went back in and reclaimed the space where nine people were murdered. we are talking about, where the bible study was held. and it is in the basement of the church. you walk in and the sense that just strikes you, i didn't lose anyone, of course i am not a member. i was deeply struck by the emotions in the room and realizing also what happened

there. there was a lot of embracing. a lot of very people holding on to one another in a way that they're trying to hold each other together. you could tell that. they were whispering. they were shaking as they held one another. but once once the bible study began, people began to smile. the reverend was very good. he got people laughing. got people reflecting. he mentioned he said we continue. but we will recognize that we will never be the same again down here. but that said the message tonight was the power of love. transitioned to the gift of forgiveness. there were victims' family members who were there. and you could tell that there was still reminders of the horror that happened in the room. there were parts of the wood wall that had been cut away clearly because there were bullet holes there. i looked up above the seat where i was sitting you could see what was a bullet hole in the low hanging ceiling. it still had the police markings around it. but that didn't matter to the people who were there. they celebrated their faith. and most of all, they said that

we are -- the words of the reverend here this territory belongs to god. so very courageous anderson. >> there were certainly police there at the church. i know patrolling outside and inside. how do people feel about that? abut the about the presence of officers, understood but not something you see every day at a church? >> not something the church asked for. this is something the community is providing they're very concerned about any repercussions. there was one armed uniformed police officer in the back of the room. there may have been others thament werethat were out of uniform. you were lightly searched before you want in. beyond that the police presence wasn't heavy. what was heavy was the spirit of community and the spirit of love. that is the strength of this parish. >> martin glad you were there. thank you. outside south carolina state house today the confederate flag well it was still flying high even as senator pinckney lay in

repose inside. meanwhile, alabama's government there today used his executive power to remove four flags with confederate symbols from a monument outside the state capitol, and senators both from mississippi, changed their positions. they're now calling to remove mississippi state flag which contains a depiction of the confederate flag. yesterday south carolina lawmakers voted overwhelmingly to debate removing the flag after they finalized a budget. state representative bill chumley one of ten lawmakers who voted no. we asked grewdrew griffin to ask him why. the congressman started talking on the program last night about the shooting and his answer caught a lot of people off-guard drew included. listen to what he said. >> these people sit in there waiting their turn to be shot. that's sad. if somebody in there with a means of self-defense could have stopped this and we would have less funerals. >> you are turning this into a

gun debate. if the nine families asked you to take down the flag would you do it. >> you said guns why didn't somebody just do something? you got one skinny person shooting a gun, you know i mean we need to take do what we can. >> i want to make sure i understand what you are telling me, are you asking that these people should have tackled him? these women should have fought him? >> i don't know what the answer was. but i know it's really really horrible for nine people to be shot. i understand that he reloaded his gun during the process. that's that's upsetting. very upsetting. >> the nine families and every black person in south carolina and all of the people the white people who are against the flag believe it shouldn't be on the state grounds, you are saying it should stay because your constituents want it to? >> it stays there until the people of south carolina say it should come down. >> will today that man, representative said he regretted using those words and wasn't trying to blame the

victims. representative mark sanford clarified his position on the flag issue today as well. monday when governor haley called for taking down the flag from the state capitol grounds he stood near her though days earlier he said it was too soon to debate taking down the flag. i spoke to him earlier. congressman sanford, two days after the shooting i saw you on wolf blitzer you declined to take a position you said it is premature to go into an intense, exhaustive emotional debate of what we might do before we first have time to mourn the passing of the families and the lives impacted. i know elsewhere you likened removing the flag to opening a pandora's box having this debate. you now support removing the confederate flag from the ground of the state capitol. i'm wondering when and what made you come to that decision? >> obviously, miraculous turn of events we have seen over the last couple days. i don't think anybody would have anticipated the things would change as quickly as they have. not just in south carolina but frankly with regard to a larger

conversation with regard to monuments. confederacy, slavery and the whole basket if you will -- so i think the change has been startling. my simple point was this which is while we should have a debat ondebate on that front, i believe it was premature to do prior to the burial of the nine victims. turned out i was wrong in that. this thing has come and moved much faster than i would have anticipated. >> it's really the change in public opinion you have felt a. assume you have been getting a lot of calls to your office that's what had the biggest impact? >> no. what had the impact for me was -- i stand by a belief that in a perfect world that you would wait until after you buried clementa pinckney. pinckney was a friend of mine. served eight years in columbia. i was a governor he was a state senator. i think it is appropriate before you go into a debate guns

racial balance, violence the flag you name it to first mourn loss. that was my simple point. i stand by that. >> how important was it to have the governor to have governor haley, come forward and make that statement? did it in a sense make it easier for others in state as well to come forward? >> no i mean i think that in some ways her hand was forced. what you had during the same day was the mayor of north charleston with a press conference a host of different folks, i question giving this even larger level of attention. >> you said that for some the flag is a symbol of a rich heritage sacrifice and battle. to others obviously a symbol of slavery and repression. i'm wondering, for you, what is it a symbol of? >> my forefathers were not slaves. and so i don't have in essence a dog in the fight so to speak. they were neither slaves nor

were they confederate soldiers to the best of my knowledge. so so what i would say is -- in representing the state for eight years of my life as a governor i tried to take into account both view points. >> it does sound though that you just don't want to take a position on or let people know what you personally think of the flag? >> i think i personally, maybe i stand very clear when i stood beside the governor and said the flag ought to come down. i put out a statement to that same effect. that's what i think. >> so does it represent something for you though? when you seep it it what do you think? do you view it as a symbol of heritage? do you view it as a symbol of slavery and oppression? >> i think it is both. all in the eye of the beholder. as i say i don't come from a strong confederacy background in terms of a bunch of forefathers that fought in battles, nor do i come from a slave holder background. >> so i am clear, you said you

don't really have a dog in this hunt to you, it doesn't have much meaning personally personal meaning but you understand the position -- you understand the various positions of your constituents who feel strongly one way or another. for you personally you don't have a personal connection to it. >> that's all i am saying. i don't have a personal connection to the flag. and the flag in south carolina and frankly through much of the south, there is personal connection. people feel a strongly held belief based on either the fact that your ancestors were one of 20,000 people who died in the war between the states or based on the fact that you are, your ancestors were actual slaves. all i am saying is it's not a benign viewpoint, it's an educated viewpoint based on being around those very folks for a long number of years who have strongly held emotional feelings towards it. what i am saying when i look up

a at the flag it doesn't evoke an emotional response for me. a better way of saying it. >> congressman. appreciate your time. thank you. >> just ahead. raw words at the boston bomber sentencing. victims faced the bomber. the bomber spoke breaking his nearly two year silence.

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at his sentencing the boston bomber spoke publicly for the first time in two years. on this program we don't use his name or show his face because we don't believe he deserves recognition. today he apologized and asked for forgiveness and admitted his guilt. his remarks were filled with references to islam, ramadan and allah. the father of martin richard, the youngest victim, spoke in court. bill richard said this about the bomber. he could have changed his mind. walked away with a minimal sense of humanity and reported to authorities that his brother intended to hurt others he chose hate, he chose destruction he chose death. this is all on him. after the hearing some survivors shared their reactions to the bomber's word. >> i regret having ever wanted to hear him speak because what

he said showed no remorse, no regret and no empathy for what he has done to our lives. >> you were in the courtroom today what was the reaction like for those people sitting in the courtroom to that apology? >> well for many this was too little too late. this is more than two years since this horrible attack. and through the duration the bomber remained largely silent saying nothing showing no remorse. people feel what he said in court continued to show lack of remorse. he did speak about ramadan, a month of forgiveness, a month "in which hearts change." but he did take responsibility or at least admitted he did it. he said "the bombing which i am guilty of if there is any lingering doubt i did it along with my brother." finally acknowledging that it was him as his lawyer said. he also did apologize to the victims, to the families of the

people who died and he said "i'm sorry for the lives i have taken, the suffering i have caused, the damage i have done." and his voice did choke with emotion there. but again, the u.s. attorney carmen ortiz said after this what she didn't hear she didn't hear him renounce terrorism, she didn't hear him renounce a violent extremism, one of the victims got up and said show remorse. so that other terrorists don't do something similar. so it was a really powerful couple of hours in that courtroom today andersen. >> of course all to avoid the death penalty. and the judge, did the judge say anything? in terms of reaction? >> yeah the judge was really really strong. first of all he sentenced him to die by execution. those are the word he said when he sort of shuttled him out the door. the bomber is going to terre haute, indiana. he said to him the way heap justified these terrible terrible acts. he said it was a monstrous self

deception, you had to forget your own human team. the judge had no problems not only sentencing him to death on the six counts but also consecutive life terms on the other counts on which he was found guilty as well. >> appreciate the reporting. thank you. up next breaking news in the investigation off to the escape of two convicted killers from a maximum security prison juch state new york. tonight, corrections officer gene palmer who passed the meat with hacksaw blades to richard matt is under arrest. expected to be arraigned any minute now. we'll bring it to you live in our next hour. stay with us. it's part adrenaline and part adventure. it's part geek and part chic. it's part relaxation and part exhilaration. it's part sports car and part suv. and the best part? the 2015 gla. it's 100% mercedes-benz.

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good evening. 9:00 p.m. eastern time. perhaps a few minutes away from an arraignment in connection with the escape of two killers from dannemora, new york. corrections officer gene palmer the man who