if he can attract public support starting from a place like this, then his reasons for starting a new war would have to be good ones. >> it is 10:00 p.m. here in charleston on the eve of the funeral of reverend pinkney, gunned down with eight members of his congregation just a week ago. this is "cnn tonight," i'm don lemon. the wake went longer than expected. now, we're just hours away from barack obama's eulogy. what he says tomorrow will be deeply personal. but could it also go down in history as a defining moment of his presidency on race? we begin with all of that tonight. martin, i want to start with you. you know, you have been here

throughout since this has happened. i think this is probably the most solemn evening that we had seen here. yeah, it just wrapped up just a short time ago. >> i think part of it is, as you say, respect given to the fact that reverend pinkney was here and the wake was being held, also to things being prepared securitiwise to the president's visit tomorrow. >> what do you think we're going to hear from him? >> i have think race is going to be key. this tragedy to him is personal. he knew reverend pinkney. it was crucial for the 2008 campaign in south carolina. race has been something the president has been reluck cant to talk about. but, as you know, this week, had a very whether you know the conversation about that. normally, he is the comforter in chief. but because he is the first black president, race is goirng to dominate. there could also be the issue of

gun control here and the access to them and the ease of that. i think you're right. this could be a very key moment for him to talk to not just the city, but a nation with something we're still grappling with. >> and when we get into more specifics with michelle kazinski at the white house in just moments. but the roof family released a statement. >> let me just read you a portion of it. we would like to take this time to reflect on the victims and give the families time to grieve. we feel it would be inaprotorat at this time to say anything other than we are truly sorry for their loss. and it should be noted that the suspect here, dillen roof, 06k, is in the county jail chlts he h has no access to any media. he has no idea of anything that has transpired after that statement. >> and that's probably the most appropriate thing to say without saying anything at all. thank you. going to the white house, tomorrow ends an extraordinary

week for president barack obama. tonight, it's not raining on president obama's parade, is it? >> we just got drenched out here. but the white house e house wouldn't say if he got drenched or how. they wouldn't even say if he felt vindicated. they only used the word pleased. we've been seeing this confident posturing by the white house and by the president himself. we're saying things like this is an easy case. it shouldn't have even been brought in the first place. shouldn't have been taken up by the court. almost publicly challenging the supreme court. and then, today, to see this spirit of relief around here, this celebration. i mean, people out right hugging. and we saw the photos of the president exuberantly slapping hands there with his chief of staff. told us they probably didn't think it was absolutely certain that things were going do go their way. and then when the president went

out to the rose garden to deliver a speech, he went right to legacy. talking about this has been something that was debated for decades. now, health care is something that is everyone's right. listen. >> the affordablecare act is here to stay. someday, our grand kids will ask us if there really was an america that discriminated against people who are sick. what we're not going to do is unravel something that has been woven into the fabric of america. >> the president said this is a victory for hard-working americans. this is a great day for america. but we know this is one of the best days for this white house. and, also, today, you know, in the same day, they saw congress pass these trade bills that now open things up for him to pass a historic trade pact with asia, which is also a big legacy i shall shoe for him. don? >> yeah, and let's talk more

about the president. you know, he seems pretty lib rated, i think, this week, in his public appearances and his interviews. what's going on? >> yeah, i think that's exactly how he wants to seem. there's a time when there's so much going on when he's at the point in his presidency and he can speak more freely and take more of a stand on things where he doesn't feel hemmed in. the controversy in the fighting is still there coming from congress and critics. so what we saw was, first, very direct talk on gun control after the charleston shooting. we didn't even expect him to go there. we expected his address to be more condolences. but he absolutely went there. talking about race, violence and guns. and then he did this interview, this hour-long sit-down interview in a garage for a podcast in california called wtf. remember, that's where he said the "n" word, surprising many.

in that same interview, he said he felt fearless at this point of his presidency. and then it just goes from there. so, today, having these victories on health care, on trade. and we expect to see more of this, don. and you know what, there was also that heck ler incidents. just the other night at the white house when they had an event for l.g.b.t. issues. he really shut down this person who started speaking out in the crowd. listen to this. >> okay. you know what -- nah, nah, nah. nope, nope, nope. hey! you're in my house. [ cheers and applause ] >> kind of interesting how he handled that. it went over great with the crowd.

throughout the presidency, president obama is very, very careful to strike this perfect balance at times. now, it seems like, you know, he just doesn't seem to be needing to do that so much. and then, tomorrow, we're going to hear him give this eulogy for reverend pinkney. we expect him to be more far-reaching than you're average eulogy. the white house isn't going to say exactly what he's going to get into. but we wouldn't rule out that he is going to be talking about, again, those hot button issues. guns, violence and race in this country, don. >> michelle kazinsky at the white house where there was just a downpour. thank you, michelle, appreciate it. i want to bring in frank rich. i want to talk about the president's trip to charleston. but can we first discuss his slam dunk with his highest holding obamacare. is this the biggest day -- maybe the biggest week -- in his presidency? >> it may prove to be the case. this is an enormous victory

before the court today. and it sort of has done something, as he said, that people have been trying to achieve for decades and haven't, in terms of health care. it's also completely knocked his opponents on their heels because what are they going to do now? campaign against the democratic party in the stand that would be in fail very in favor of taking away people's health care? more people are going to sign up for aca in the months to come with the coming election. >> you know, he started the weekend off, frank, using the "the n word." it seems like second term swagger going on. >> i wouldn't use the word swagger. i think the fact is because he doesn't have to face the voters again, he is liberated in both policy announcements, executive orders, his language, his

stance, the way he's dealing with pub lick and politics and his opponents. it's not swrager. it's just he's a liberated guy and says what he wants and, within the constitution, do what he wants. >> yeah. and a whole lot of people want him to be more frank and more open when it comes to issues of race. he's coming here tomorrow to give the reverend's eulogy. clearly, the confers about race isn't other. what are people expecting him to say tomorrow? >> look, like many americans, i feel it's going to be a tremendous moment for him. and i have no idea what he's going to say. no one does. but it's certainly he is someone who, even at his worst, gives great speeches. he has an incredible moment here because the racism has boiled over in america, really, since the beginning of his presidency and reached some new kind of tragic height, if that's possible, in charleston.

he can address it. and he can address it candidly. for all of this talk about him using the "n" word, i think that's the tip of the iceberg for what will be a lot of articulate talk in terms of race. >> you've never been one to bite your tong. you called gop politicians laughable cowards. here's what you said. confronted with the simplest of questions, should the state capitol display a flag that stands for slavery, risism and treason. if they had been the rebel generals in the civil war, it would have been over in a week. how big of a problem do you think this is for the gop? the presidential contenders? >> i think it's a huge problem.

this is a party, we cannot forget this, that is seshltly all white. it has some black people and essentially a black candidate. we're talking about a system that cannot stand. and the flag, by the way, is a relatively unimportant part of all of the thing that is are wrong in terms of racial justice in america. that they couldn't have the guts to come out against the flag until nicky hailey did. they looked like children. >> well, frank, do you think that's what makes donald trump so attractive, at least so far to voters? he's really hot on the hills of jeb bush. i think he's at 16%. is this why he has such initial attraction? >> well, i think a lo of it has

to do with name recognition slebl rity. and we're very early in the campaign. but republicans, maybe it's time for them to take a stand against donald trump. would you want to have a party with that as part of your brand? donald trump who's derogatory to everyone. he's accused obama of being un-american. you think they'd want to pull him down from the flag pole, too. >> do you think it's a little bit too soon to put any -- to put so much weight on these polls? that same poll has trailed so closely by bernie sanders, by any means. >> these polls are really kind of meaningless. a lot of the republican field isn't known to voters.

>> it's so early and i think we can pretty much discount it. i think if you looked at polls in the previous cycle, you'd be shocked with how little they had to do with the end result in 2012. >> this is a slap shot of the moment. frank rich, thank you very much. >> we've got a lot more live from charleston. coming up, the youngest victim who lost his life. plus, the latest on the man hunt in up state new york. and why a corrections officer says he unintentionally made it easier for the fugitives to escape. if you have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis.

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we should never forget that this is a very personal tragedy for the family and friends of the people who lost their lives. it's a pleasure meeting you. how are you guys doing? >> doing good. >> you're doing well? the president is coming tomorrow, a.j. and dominique. what do you want to hear from the president? >> i just basically want to hear what he's been saying recently. how the country needs to come together and stay together. it's a lot of things going on rite now, naturally, that

everybody knows about the flag that kind of feels like it's trying to tear the country apart. we can't allow that to happen. me, personally, i want to see him say good-bye to his friend. that's what i care about right now. we're friends of tawanza. we're not really worried about the outside world. we're still in our bubble. so i want him to come down here and pay respects to his dear friend. >> people look at that, and it says in loving memory and there's a picture on there. sunrise and sunset. that's his birth and his death. and then hash tag, along with wanza. that's an amazing tribute to him. i want to speak just about if president for a second longer. if you heard that podcast, he feels fearless now. is there a bold move that you would like him to make beyond just talking about his friend? >> not particularly. >> no, you just wanted to pay his respects to the people here and then the rest will come later? >> um-hmm. >> tell us what it's -- what it's been like.

you said it has not sunk in. what does it feel like? >> there's a really good energy. i think for us, personally, the fact that we haven't seen him yet, you know, since everything kind of went down, i don't think it's really sunk in for a lot of us. we know that the next couple of days are going to be tough. we've got our brothers here and we know everything is going to be good. did you visit the mom? >> ms. saunders is a very, very strong women. since i've known her all of my 15 plus years, she's a very, very strong, faithful woman. i know she'll be able to get over this. she manages to keep a style on her face. today, tomorrow and saturday for

this double, back-to-back laying to rest two of her family members. sq >> she's doing it herself. she's keeping happy. she has family in town, naturally. but i know forever, we're going to have a tough two days. >> do you worry that -- this is an honest question. do you worry that once everything goes away, the barricades and the people singing, that it's really going to set in and no one is going to turn back and look at what happened in charleston? is there a concern about that? >> right now, naturally, things will pop up. history will go on.

but i think there's an overall continuing of energy that's going to proceed throughout this. i do not think that this will ever be erased. i don't think anybody will forget about it. it's more than an american epidemic. unfortunately, they have to compassed this church to see a lot of things that charleston has to offer. >> someone said it would be interesting to me if this church was where the civil war actually ended. you know, when the flag comes down. and your friend will be known for helping this awful part of our history to many people. what do you think of that? >> i mean, not solely him, but you know there were other lives lost. it's hard to speak on that.

especially the flag. it's a very touchy subject. even though it's just a flag, as long as you know those people and you can judge for yourself, that's pretty much where you go with it. >> yeah, it's so good to have you guys here. we'll have you back on. i'm going to have you back on tomorrow after the president comes and get your reaction. >> sounds good to me. >> appreciate it, guys. when we come back, scrapping the confederate flag and other symbols of the confederacy. is america trying to scrub away confederacy? a heated debate next.

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we're live here in charleston and calls to band symbols of the confederate south are strong. including the con felt rat battle flag inside the church. and the new york post says it's time to put gone with the wind in a movie in a museum calling it a racist artifact. also, the former south carolina

state representative and cnn contributor and sonny hoston and former federal prosecutor. pat, i going to start with you. alabama took down the flags. virginia is taking them off of their license plates. businesses stop selling them. it seems pret fill likely that south carolina is going to take the flag down, too. it seems like it's on the losing side of history right now. what do you make of that? it's part of the on going intent to erase southern culture. people have been wanting to do this for years and years. now, they appear they have a chance and it's a shame that they're doing this on the backs of people who are suffering right now with the loss of loved ones. i really think that's a crime. >> i'm from the south and there are lots of parts of southern culture that i can celebrate.

i love the lazy afternoons. i love having drinks in the afternoons. there are good parts of southern culture that one can celebrate. why just celebrate that part? why put it in a museum where most people think it belongs. >> >> we don't just celebrate that part. that particular site is a war memorial. as most people know, or maybe you don't, south carolina lost more in the war between the states then they have lost in all of the wars since then. i think it was over 60,000 south caroli carolinans perished. >>. >> the flag that was on the capitol dome is not the same flag is not the same war memorial.

i know there's striking similarities, but they're not the same flag. the one that was on the capitol dome is confederate naval jack and it had no relationship to the flags flying over the memorial. like i said it's a subtle difference and i realize people may not know that yet. first, we, the shades that we are and the hues that we are, we're a part of southern culture, as well. i don't want to bore with response to civil rights gangs. what we do know is last wednesday, dillen roof went into this church. to show honor to that flag, he shot nine people. he murdered nine people. he reloaded that clip five times

after worshipping with those people. for me, i'm sick and tired of that flag being shown honor 234 e in front of our state house throughout the south. >> i've said this over and other again, symbols matter. it's a symbol meant to invoke fear. i remember being in north carolina and i literally saw a truck with a huge confederate flag, two guys, sitting, drinking beer, staring at me. it invoked fear 234 my heart. that is the reaction that most african meshes have. every single person i've spoken to lament the murder of the nine but then immediately say we've got to take the flag down. >> people are looking at everything when it comes to the flag.

>> and this i just got from north charleston police. there was a sergeant that was terminated. a sergeant shannon diline posted a picture of himself wearing confederate boxers on the internet and he was fired from that. do you think this is a cleansing of culture? why would someone have a display on that? >> i can't address somebody that takes photographs of himself in underwear, no matter what's on them. but trying to link the war memorial to this young murder is absurd. it was disingenuous. it was dishonest.

>> you hear many white supremists who giving honor to this flag, who are giving honor to this flag. it's a denial of reality. >> people can wear what they want. that's part of freedom of expression, i assure you. >> i don't see anyone wearing the africa flag. i don't see anyone wearing the united states flag. i don't see anyone wearing the flag for peace or the symbol for peace when they are committing atrocities when it comes to race. they're wearing the flag of the confederacy. you should have a huge problem with that. >> the d.c. sniper, i didn't see any flags on him, but he killed a whole bunch of people. i would view that as the same as this one. they were both murderers.

>> but you're making the point that we're making. they didn't use a flag. >> he's being dishonest. the bottom line is we know what that flag stands for. we know what the flag stands for. you know what the flag stands for and i'm not going to let you stay on this program trying to pretend like the flag isn't a flag of domestic terrorism -- >> well, you all invited me. i guess i will be here. >> go ahead. you know, i'll give you the last word. >> we're going to defend the flags. we're going to defend the flag. we're going to try to keep it where it is. and everybody needs to come to grips with the fact that 60 pntd of this state are whites that support that flag. that's just a simple fact. >> we'll give him the last word on that. it's not the end of the conversation. >> thank you. i appreciate you coming on. thank you very much. coming up, the latest on the man hunt in up state new york. a corrections officer says he's unintentionally helped the

fugitives escape. plus, what goes on behind bars that these sorts of things happen. we'll talk about that coming up. we'll talk about that coming up. when you got married? when you had kids? when did you first fight to be considered a family? when you fell in love? when you got married? when you had kids? family isn't defined by who you love, but how. tylenol®.

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the eve of president barack obama's eulogy. meanwhile, though, in up state new york, the man hunt for two escaped killers has stretched to

its 20th day and the second charged with the prison break gene palmer says he provided tools and other items that unintentionally made their escape easier. but, was there even more shocking behavior behind the prison walls. shimone, you've got some new information into prison security. what can you tell us. >> while they were planning their escape, cutting holes in the wall and going underdwrougr to sort of stop the process of cutting out pipes and beginning their escape.

>> i think it's very interesting. you actually spoke to gene palmer in prison today. what did he tell you? >> it wasn't actually in prison. i talked to him a few days ago right before he got arrested. bagsically, he was very, very sad. he knew what he did was wrong. i think at the time when he was doing it, he didn't realize it was wrong. it's sort of the culture of the jail. guards sort of give gifts to the prisoners. we've heard this from people out here: it's not something that is not abnormal. this is how guards and the prisoners sort of interact. food is brought to them. they cook in their cells. the inmates can cook in their

cells. they can work in their cells. they get cools to do things in their cells. so for him to have done this at that time didn't seem very wrong. now, he realizes what he did. i think he is just shocked at what has happened to him, the ramifications of it and how it's basically ruined his life. this guy was a 28 year corrections officer. it's all he's ever done. i think he's just devil stated. he was just a very, very sad, sad man when i sat and spoke with him. >> yeah. yeah. but as you said, he brought it all on his self. marty tanklef who spent more than 12 years back in 2008.

he joins us via skiep. i'm glad to have both of you gentleman. we have gene palmer escorting them to the cat waik and getting them more electricity. what in the world is going on in this prison? >> this all started on your show. i said that the security and the institution was lax. that there were major problems, flaws and failures within the security of the institution. and i think that's all coming to fruition now. it's only going to get worse as the inspector general continues this investigation. this escape was being planned out over months, we have learned. those cells were not inspected. there was stuff in the cells that should have been found. the nightly bed checks, obviously, were not done.

especially on the niekt they left. they were last seen at 10:30. they were discovered missing at 5:30 a.m. you have to see a living, breathing body in that cell. somebody wasn't doing their job, whether they were sleeping, whether it was intentional. we can't tell at this point. >> i remember you saying that we're going to find more people helping in this escape. we are finding now two other people have been arrested. i want to go to marty. marty, you were an inmate at clinton correctional. you were later exonerated of murder. what was the security like there? did the guards sleep on their job that they may have?

>> one example of random security checks is officers would walk around with rubber mallets and knock on our cell bars and cell wall. you regularly got pat-frisked. tlrp routine cell chececks. at any moment, you could be frisked or made to go through a metal detech nor. >> so, do you think the guardings had to be aware of what was goirng on in these cells? >> what ends up happening, after correction officers work around inmates, they become complacent.

they understand what's going on behind the scenes. bernie, gene palmer gave an interview 15 years ago. i want you to listen to this. >> with the money that they pay you, you'll go bald, have high blood pressure, you'll divorce and kill yourself. it's a negative environment. you become hard on misuse as when you see someone cut in the face and they're bleeding and stuff. >> so he sounds tough enough. he sounds a little bitter to me. over time, do guards start to identify with the prisoners?

>> well, they have personal relationships because they get to know these guys on a daily basis. it's an extremely dangerous job. you're working in an environment where you work in a housing area with 50 to a hundred convicted murderers. you have no weapons. you have no back-up nowhere in sight if there's a problem. people are stabbing, cutting, flouing feces in your face and in the face of others. this is the environment you live and work in on a daily basis. it's one of the roughest jobs you could have. it creates a lot of negativity. >> i've always heard that snitches get stitches. i've heard that all of the time from, basically, everyone on this program. but i heard someone say that maet was a snitch and that's why

he got this in there. >> well, listen. snitches get rewards, if you will. many of the rewards are sanctioned by the administration. if you go forward and give up other inmates that are attempting to escape, you're going to be given some type of reward whether it's food or candy bars or whatever the case may be. but at the end of the day, we're talking hacksaw blades, drill bits and some other stuff they were given. these weren't rewards for snitches. thank you very much. i appreciate both of you gentlemen. we've got a lot on the man hunt to come. i'm going to ask dog "the bounty hunter" what it's going to take to catch these guys. dog is going to join me next. big day? ah, the usual.

moved some new cars. hauled a bunch of steel. kept the supermarket shelves stocked. made sure everyone got their latest gadgets. what's up for the next shift? ah, nothing much. just keeping the lights on. (laugh) nice. doing the big things that move an economy. see you tomorrow, mac. see you tomorrow, sam. just another day at norfolk southern. and sleep deprived. bring us your aching... bring us those who want to feel well rested and ready to enjoy the morning ahead. aleve pm. the first to combine a safe sleep aid... plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. for pain relief that can last until the am. so you... you... and you can be a morning person again. aleve pm for a better am. now available with an easy open cap.

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the more i learn about this prison or correctional facility, it seems more like a reality show. what the heck is going on there? >> i hope that's not a supermax is like this. or i hope if they are, they're going to completely change it. this is not -- this is incredible. just incredible. what can you say about it? would you have ever predicted that we would be 20 days? i think in the beginning, everyone thought either they're way far gone, that we may never get them, or they're right in the area and we'd be caught quickly. >> well, you're right. today is ricky the rat's birthday. i've got so many e-mails. half of my e-mails are thinking that the cabin dna is fake. i thought why would the cops lie

like that? i don't think they would lie and say that. i thought they had a better plan to get out of prison. once they got out, you know, to get away. it seems like they didn't. but they're up there. i also have some people telling me there are some old iron mines up there. i've always said you've got to be hiding under something so that the infrared cameras don't catch you. if that is true, that that dna is in that cabin, then they're there. if they are, they've got to be hiding, again, in like a cave or something. you will not believe the e-mails that we're getting. i hope to god that that's true. they do have blood -- >> you know, it takes a while to get a dna sample back. but it's real quick if they've got blood. so if that's them, that i had e then they are up in that area. >> yeah. so here's what i want to ask you. your concern, too, is obviously, that they're very dangerous. and i think we -- i don't know

if i talked about it with you, but i know i talked about it with others. they don't really search for them at night because they're worried about the safety of the people who are searching for them. and they're worried that these guys have gone e guns and that they won't be taken alive. law enforcement is really in a dangerous position. >> so any -- i think they may have knives and stuff like that. hopefully, no firearms. but, yes, they will not hunt at night. the convicts will move at night. so if a convict or a sheriff walks up on them, the sheriff could lose his life. i kind of agree a little bit with them not to hunt at night. now, if i was going and had

enough people with me, then we could go at night and that's when we'd catch them. so everybody has sdd me, dog, when are you coming? we're here right now. beth and i have been on the ground. we're within miles of where they're allegedly at and we're just waiting. my question is what are the rules? >> there's rules from law enforcement. if they've got a certain area quarantined off, you can't go into that crime scene area they called it. now, the laws are to do with bail bonds skips. someone with a responsibility to the court. and the bounty hunter, or it's

called the bail enforcement agent has to go through a bunch of changes to become that. this is a completely different thing. this is the right to arrest by any citizen in america. these are federal fugitives. there is a law in the united states of america gives a person -- any person -- the right to arrest. so as long as i don't get within an area or step on cops toes, i don't think anybody ses e's goi say much. i think with beth and i being here, a lot of people will give more information. we're praying. we're encouraging the cops every day. but this is not a bail bond jump. these are federal escaped prisoners. under the united states laws, us, as a citizen, may and are required to do something about it. so i'm not saying that we're hunting. right now, we're congressmen tating. we're going out doing interviews. but if we run into them, brother, you know how god is. and, especially with me, i'm very lucky. i cannot believe this.

i'm just getting the last few years of my life to retire. wouldn't this be a great one to go down with? wouldn't this be the one? this is the one. i am so excited. i am so ready. brother, i wish he was here with me. >> well, if it does happen, i know where the exclusive will go. and this's to cnn tonight with don lemon. >> thank you, brother. >> be safe. >> you, too. >> we'll be right back. your credit is in pretty good shape. >>chuck, i know i have a 798 fico score, thanks to experian.com. kaboom... get your credit swagger on. become a member of experian credit tracker and find out your fico score powered by experian.

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make sure you stay with cnn tomorrow for live coverage of president obama's eulogy. i'll see you back here tomorrow night. "ac 360" starts right now.