tv Smerconish CNN June 27, 2015 3:00pm-4:01pm PDT
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rocessing these experiences i put away. i knew there were other combat veterans that needed to do that. >> we provide veterans with all the supplies they need to complete along the distance hike. it's just like a deployment instead of going to fight a war, your mission is to be a civilian again. >> just being in the woods. out here there's nothing to do but think. >> there's an internal quiet. and some of the problems that you're dealing with are hammered away. >> just being around other military is more than words could say. >> how are you? >> good how are you? >> you can see how much they care. it help ss. >> you're learning to take it as it comes and move on.
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>> looking for that sense of calm i think i'm going in that direction. >> i'm poppy harlow in new york i'll be back with you at 7:00 eastern, smerconish is next. >> welcome to the program, finally a breakthrough in the three-week manhunt for those escaped prisoners in new york richard matt has been shot and killed. and the search has intensified for david sweat. matt was found in the woods in malone new york after he fired the shot at the back of a camping trailer. officers heard him cough as he fled on foot and a federal agent killed him when matt armed with a shotgun refused orders to put his hands up. >> now, more than 1,000 law enforcement officers are closing in on david sweat.
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authorities believe he's contained in a perimeter, set up around him. cnn's polo sandoval is live in new york with the latest. was david sweat with richard matt when i was killed? >> that is a crucial question for investigators, they can't answer that yet. there was a certain set of tracks located in and around the area where richard matt was shot yesterday investigators aren't quite sure who they belong to. if david sweat is hiding out in and around the wooded areas you see behind me here in upstate new york they're confident they're moving forward with great caution, this man is a convicted cop killer they're treating this man as armed, dangerous and growing even more desperate by the minute. >> i asked the question for obvious reasons, because how can law enforcement believe they
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have guy number two encircled if they don't know if he was with guy number one at the time they took out guy number one? >> >>. >> what's interesting here they don't have evidence to suggest that he left the area and they don't have evidence that seems to indicate that he's here. they have really the hardest piece of evidence this confrontation with richard matt yesterday that turned deadly for that escaped inmate. so now, investigators are working on that as this potential lead a few moments ago, we witnessed this seemingly endless parade of patrol cars. they do plan on saturating this area not only to try to track down david sweat, but also as reassurance for the people who live in the shadow here many people not even staying home the last few days when the search shifted closer to this important of upstate new york. officers determined to stay on the trail of this individual whether he's here or a
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neighboring state or potentially left the country. >> what's the working theory as to why he would have fired on a civilian? >> that's another very critical question here too, the reports that we're getting, is that this individual in some kind of a recreational vehicle heard the shot and noticed some kind of a bullet hole on that vehicle. and then he called authorities. what's still yet to be explained, though is if that shot actually came from richard met. it's a critical piece of information that is missing from this investigation do investigators believe it was richard matt that opened fire. it's one of those critical questions we will be asking today. i expect to get more information throughout the weekend. >> i want to return to our focus on the hundred. joining me is u.s. marshall and u.s. marshalls special operations group.
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former fbi assistant director tom fuentes. where richard matt was killed would seem to be confirmation of the total reliance that these two had on joyce mitchell for their escape. they had all that planning in terms of how they were going to get out of prison it seems clear, their fate was in her hands for a pickup? >> i agree, it looks like they didn't have a plan b or c, if we assumed they took a year to figure out how to get out of that prison, they would have also had a complex plan involving a, b, c plans once they came up out of that manhole. that is surprising. >> it reminds me of the hunt for bin laden, is it really a capture or kill mission? or is it a kill mission? >> i think it's a capture mission, if they happen to kill him, they will kill him. >> they told matt to put his hands up he had a gun in his
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hands, you want to take evasive action because this man has been known to kill before. that would be falling in line. my concern again is where they are. the fact that are they together. my theory has been, they probably separated before now. that's my theory they would have had to have killed him if he didn't comply. >> i know no two of these cases are alike, do you see fugitives in pairs splitting up or sticking together? >> the major case that went over the wall two that i know of i know the michael lucas indication out of texas, they split up. they have known some prisoners to stay together and go on a crime spree. >> two civilians have been
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charged. i wonder how their fate, if sweats is taken alive. >> i think a lot will be learned from him, even though people say he has no reason to talk, they can't plea bargain anything he's going to be locked down 23 hours a day. however, these type of personalities are extremely narcissistic. it's all about them they're selfish, you can get them to talk just based on their ego. you had this great plan you were able to get out of there. how did you do it? tell us your story. often times people like this will tell you their story if he's alive to tell it. >> to your point of the narcissism involved with individuals like this i've been wondering, will he take himself out?
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you may have just put your finger on the explanation as to why he wouldn't. >> if he's in that wooded area and he knows that his colleague was killed by law enforcement, he knows his days are numbered. >> i would think so and i think that you know it will still play out. will it be suicide by cop? will he surrender? there have been so many people over the years that said i'm never going to be taken alive. and then they go along like little puppies when police surround them. we don't know. that will be his determination whether he walks away from this alive or dead. >> might the fact that we now have a dead body of guy number one assist the dogs in hunting for guy number two is that cadaver of value in terms of picking up a scent? >> if the scent was on the guy, yeah. i don't know if that's what they have here law enforcement has probably not given everything
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they've got. not being on seen some things can term. if there's a scent there, they would have picked it up if they catch this guy, one of the things he would probably try to negotiate, he won't be in the hole the rest of his life. that's another reason why he might talk. >> it's been noted so many times that he's akin to a movie. one of the aspects of it is how allegedly a corrections officer was compromised by one of these guys and traded him tools for certainly of his paintings. how common do you think the behavior is not to this extent not to this extreme, behavior like this where individuals are corrupted by those that they're supposed to be protecting. >> protecting meaning not to escape. >> i think it happens on a frequent basis, not that they're helping him escape but just this kind of relationship you know it's not just the inmates that are locked up in this prison it's the corrections
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officers also. it's the staff, other people employees, handy men, you name it that work in this facility they have to work together especially with budget cuts as the staff becomes more shorthanded, they need to ensure peace in the valley with the inmates in there, they will exchange favors. start to exchange some kind of a trust, even though that creates a relationship. >> do you worry? we're not the only ones there are prisons all across the country that have television sets there are prisoners watching this thing unfold. do you worry that this is now going to be an impetus, a motivator for other prisoners to try schemes like this? >> well i think the bottom line. a lot of prisoners are a little upset, because now their rations, everything they have is probably being scrutinized right now. i don't see it that way. you talk about the millions of prisoners in this country, and
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the numbers that actually go over the wall this is an anomaly, the bottom line is that prisoner -- all prisoners right now on special alert, check everything. i agree with tom 100% in these prisons, a lot of times guards have to work with these prisoners, sometimes you might let them do those things turn your head break your protocol you're not thinking they're trying to escape like this woman did did. that's sort of like an anomaly, actually trying to -- guards trying to help somebody escape. >> thank you, gentlemen. >> thank you. believe it or not, there are people who are rooting for these bad guys. but why. coming up we'll explore the psychology of why some people would side with killers. and the supreme court made history yesterday, ruling that same sex couples must be allowed to marry in all 50 states the landmark ruling set off celebrations across the country.
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allowed whether anyone in my audience was rooting for the two killers who escaped from a maximum security facility. that may sound crazy, given that the two escaped kill edd prisoners are horrible killers. >> deep down inside every time there's a news release saying we're so close, we have dna, we know where they are. and another few days go by. inside i sort of have this warm feeling that the authorities are just chasing their tails. a small part of me is rooting for the bad guys. >> joanna said had a had a, unfortunately my husband and i are in that group. he's a retired cop can't explain, and ken tweeted and said i hope they're not caught
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and go on to live crime free lives. what might make people root for killers. hopefully it's not just a quirk to my audience. >> definitely not. really what we're talking about, it's not people who truly want murderers to be free among us. it's a fantasy and an identification with people who are in prison so you know we all can feel imprisoned in our lives, in our jobs or maybe even in our families. you're going through the grind and you relate to the idea that you feel trapped, you feel imprisoned and you want to break free, run 23r50efree, you want to escape. it's this mixed fantasy, not like i want a person who killed and decapitated someone to be among us it's an idea that someone who is in prison like i feel could get away could be
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free could escape even if it's the wrong thing to do. >> i thought maybe, when i was listening to those calls, and reading the tweets it was like an f you to authorities. >> some people have a rivalry to the man, these guys could be giving it to the man as it were definitely as a fantasy for some. it depends on your background what's going on with you why would you identify with these guys. >> is part of it that -- i don't want to minimize what they did. i hope guy number two gets what guy number one got. is part of it that this is a really good show and it's reminiscent in a lot of tv's and movies. art imitates life it's
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thrilling an escape we all have that thrill of watching in movies often the bad guys getting away or the escape or the chase. that is a compel ingling rendition to see, it reminds us even if nightmare s nightmares you're trying to rung you can't move it's the drama, it takes out of it what is the crime that actually happened? we also have fantasies about people getting punished for what they do. this stream is a common stream of the idea of an escape narrow escape. do we hear them cough? you know what happened in that moment? >> we were wondering, how could the woman allegedly slept with one or both of these individuals now there's a second individual who was charged. he was trading tools in return
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for the paintings of one of these guys. what does it see about their level of persuasion? >> pretty high. which is not surprising. it's very common for people who are in prison. to have sociapathy. for some it's an ability to zero in on what you want what you need and give it to you. they do that in a remorseless way. >> here's another question i want to ask you. apparently the guy who traded the tools, whose name escapes me shipped a painting to a woman in florida who sold it for two grand on ebay presuming the person who was the purchaser knew that a murderer did this. who wants to own this? >> and people do.
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it's like getting a little piece of evil. we feeling in our day to day lives, many of us feel powerless, right? the idea that we could own, but not be own a little bit of something vicious or something evil something that has power that we kind of want at some level. we don't want to go out and murder somebody but the fantasy of being that powerful person that person that takes it all, has no regard for someone else that is a fantasy. you have to realize fantasy is different from action. >> you're still scaring me. >> you shouldn't be scared there's a difference between thought and action we all have bad thoughts heinous thoughts they may be about a wish to have some power, do something bad. we are human beings and we don't
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act on them. some of us do act on them most of us are not going to acted on that thought. we have less of an earth to act on it that's what i do in my office. the separation of fantasy and thought, we shouldn't be frightened. >> whoever bought the painting needs your treatment. >> not necessarily at all. maybe they're able to vicarious vicariously enjoy that keep that separate and live a wonderful and upright life. >> thank you as always appreciate your analysis. coming up front pages all across the nation are reporting on yesterday's landmark supreme court ruling on same sex marriage. famed weatherman sam champion and his husband join me to talk about the historic decision next 37
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yesterday in the aftermath of a supreme court ruling. it overturns state's existing marriage bans. justice anthony kennedy was the swing vote. famed weatherman sam champion has already called yesterday the second best day of his life the first was the day he married his husband. i'm eager to get his thoughts sam champion is here along with his husband rubin robiere. >> early in your career you had to worry about the public finding out you were gay. >> yes. >> here you are today on cnn with your husband. doesn't that say it all? >> it does. the way you said it, it kind of hurts to still hear it because there weren't gay people in television when i started television. i was afraid if people knew about my life i wouldn't get
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the opportunity to do what i love to do to succeed in this career. and it at times was difficult. now it is not. >> thank god. >> you said yesterday it was the second best day of your life. the first best day was the day you married? >> that was really sweet. a degree. that's why it was the second best day of my life too. it was such an important decision and we cannot forget so many people fight for us for such a long time. to be able to be here today and talk to you. >> i remember sitting in my car, i had one of those great radio moments, you were explaining to howard stern what it was like to come out to your father and have him be not so accepting. he was a big guy and a marine. might it have been easier for people in your position with
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this decision? same sex marriage is okay? >> yeah i think because again we all know what we're taught and i don't blame my father and the people of his generation who grew up believing what they learned. what i want is a new generation of americans to understand that there is no shame to be felt here. this isn't -- we're no different from anyone else. we're people who have hopes and dreams and fears and we want to love and if you want a family you should be able to have a family you should be able to live in this country happy, and i think yeah this new generation will get that opportunity because of a day like this. >> you were able before he passed to put it all together. there was a time period much like others where you just weren't speaking? >> i kind of knew he was a brilliant man, i told him that
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at the time. i said you're a lot smarter than you sournd right now, i know you'll figure this out. i don't really need to i have a family. at the time i had friends in new york so i'll let you figure it out. and you'll get back to me as soon as you do. and he kind of did, you know? we had the talk and we understood each other. that was a great day for me as well. >> is it easier for you two because you're a celebrity couple? >> not at all. >> i don't think either one of us think of ourselves that way? >> we don't think of ourselves in that way, and i don't think it's easy. >> of course it's easier as a couple who's living in new york atlanta or miami than for a couple who living in a little city of kansas or in a small town. for them it's really difficult, because we cannot have that big
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city influence, because we have -- >> we have a support group, and a lot of big cities you do have you friends and people who are just like you. i come from small town america. i'm born in paducah kentucky and proud of that it is a lonely place to be if you're different and not accepted. not paducah in particular i don't want to pick out any city. but middle america and small towns, can be a very lonely place if you're different. and if the community is not accepting of that difference. >> not everyone is celebrating today. some are still having a difficult time accepting this accepting this because to them this is not what marriage is supposed to be. >> i think there's a great dealing of confusion about what the goals are here the goals are, this is still a country and should always be a country that respects religion and supports it. in your religion you have the right to worship and believe as you believe. this isn't a decision against
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religion it's about equality under the law. these cases if you take time to look at them they're heartbreaking in what people have had to live through. for surviving spouses to not be listed on a death certificate. for two women who want to adopt four special needs babies that were abandoned or left surrendered at birth, and to not be able to because the state of michigan doesn't recognize them as a married couple, these are real legal difficulties these are hardships. this takes it beyond a point where everyone's waiving a rainbow flag, this is real life real hardship and it shouldn't income america. >> to your point lead plaintiff in this case who i still have difficulty pronouncing, justice kennedy said to fulfill their mutual promise, they travelled from ohio to maryland where
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same sex marriage was difficult. the couple were wed inside a medical transport plane as it remained on the tarmac in baltimore, you hear details of a case like that how can you argue with it? >> and my hope is that anyone who is in love has been in love, understands love will be a person who will stand up and say, everyone deserves to feel that. if you love someone, hearing that story drives you -- i mean, just just you can't take it you just can't take it. >> the average amount here ended when i recognized there was no day in my life where i made a decision that i was interested in women. there was no decision. i imagine there was no day in your life when you decided, i think i'll look for a guy like sam? >> you don't wake up one day and decide to be gay. it's not an option. that is it the whole point, it's not an option.
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you are or you were. and i'm glad that today we can be ourselves in this country. now officially. >> did you have to play a role that wasn't honest or did you just say nothing. did you have to hold yourself out on television as being heterosexual when you weren't? >> coming up in this business and moving from market to market and town to town i had to make a decision my decision was to not talk about it at all. television was the work i wasn't going to talk about my personal life. if an interviewer wanted to sit down and discuss it with me i would say something i'm sure we could say on cable. look i really only talk about sex with people i'm about to have sex with. unless i misunderstood this situation, we don't need to talk about sex, so let's talk about what we're here to talk about, my work the forecast or something else. that was, i was very direct with it and aggressive about it because i felt like it was very unfair to have to carry that to
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not be just judged solely on my work and my abilities but too have to carry a label and to be judged for that. >> thank you for being here really appreciate your time. >> thank you very much. coming up more reaction to the supreme court's historic decision from the first openly gay governor in u.s. history, jim mcgreevey is about to join me to give his takes. the debate over the confederate symbols isn't over i'll speak to one man who says the flag is a war memorial. and should continue to fly high. if you want a paint that's tough enough to protect from the elements. if you want a paint flexible enough to survive the subtle cracking of time. if you want a paint that gives you a lifetime warranty... only this can. aura exterior from benjamin moore. paint like no other.
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george johnson can not fly. he can not see through doors. his speed, anything but superhuman. but when it comes to health care options, george found helpful information and resources at aarphealth.com this makes him feel unstoppable. well, almost unstoppable. discover real possibilities at aarphealth.com today and tomorrow take on the world. welcome back he was the nation's first openly gay governor and famously resigned from office in 2004 after coming out as gay. >> so my truth, is that i'm a gay american and i'm blessed to live in the greatest nation
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with the tradition of civil liberties, the greatest tradition of civil liberties in the world. and a can't which provides so much to its people. >> i want to get jim mcgrievery's take on yesterday's landmark supreme court decision. >> thank you so much for being here. >> good to be with you, michael. >> how might a decision like this have impacted your life had it have come decades ago? >> it's a staggering decision basically, the nation is saying that i am created equal in the eyes of the law, in the eyes of society. it's a major seed complaining, michael. it says to young lgbt youth all across this country, you're equal in the eyes of the law, and for many of us in the eyes of the church it's a powerful decision. the notion of equality the notion of dignity, it's a word justice kennedy used again and
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again. >> your story is so well known. you're married, then came the revolutions, i am a gay american. do you think it would have put you on a different path a personal path that would have been different had the supreme court decades ago given this green light? >> sure. i mean i think if i -- that decision had been there, i would have never made the decisions i did. i would have talked to my mother and father and asked them i would have talked to a teacher, i would have talked to a person in authority, a local parish priest. but frankly you look around around and there was no support. the government didn't recognize homosexuality. in fact it was labelled by the american medical association as an illness, there was no support, no recognition by the state, the authority of the state. when the united states supreme court, the highest law of the land recognizes gay marriage as
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being worthy of the recognition of the supreme court, it's a sea change. what it does culturally michael. >> you're so well known, 11 years ago, you became the first openly gay governor in the history of the country. you're also an attorney. let me share something justice scalia said. until the courts put an end to it we were witnessing one of the great exhibitions of american democracy on this issue. now, five justices have just concluded that every state was violating the constitution for 135 years, the time period between ratification of the 14th amendment and when massachusetts recognized same sex marriage in 2003. what would be your response to justice scalia? >> my response would be that justice kennedy saw that within the 14th amendment there's this basic right of dignity, and gay
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marriage ought to be afforded the same quality as heterosexual marriage. if we know that equality is equality why wait until the legislative process moves on? i mean if you extract justice scalia's argumentation to an awful conclusion then he might not have moved to address the questions of interracial marriage. he would have allowed the legislative process to play itself out on a whole host of issues involving civil rights women, gays african-americans, so i think what justice kennedy did was to show not only the seismic change in the american culture, but he dug deep into the law, and that the law is a living breathing document. and that the court has a moral responsibility to lift america up to our better angels and that's what i believe he did when he embraced the notion of dignity inhair an the in the 14th amendment.
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>> you've dedicated your life to prison ministry i find it interesting that proponents of marriage being recognized between a man and woman often invoke faith, invoke god, saying he was an architect of this union, being man and woman. you would say what to those folks? >> god bless them i mean religion is so much a part of religion and culture in my faith. when pope francis says, who am i to judge. the hope has moved this beyond our own cultural moorings. i think for me personally when i grappled i didn't want to be gay at that point in my life i wanted to be like every other kid on the playground in the boy scouts. now i understand it's a gift, it's who god made me to be. >> governor thank you for being here. >> thank you, michael, great day to celebrate. yesterday the president said the confederate flag must come down as an acknowledgement that the cause for which the
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confederacy fought, slavery, was wrong. my next guest begs to disagree. hauled a bunch of steel. kept the supermarket shelves stocked. made sure everyone got their latest gadgets. what's up for the next shift? ah, nothing much. just keeping the lights on. (laugh) nice. doing the big things that move an economy. see you tomorrow, mac. see you tomorrow, sam. just another day at norfolk southern.
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xfinity is perfect for people who need to get a lot done at home. and now you can go even faster. we've just increased the speeds on two of our most popular plans. welcome back pastor clemente pinckney was laid to rest yesterday. he was gunned down at an historic black church in charleston. president obama who considered him a friend delivered the eulogy and praised renewed efforts to remove the confederate flag in south carolina. >> removing the flag from this state's capitol would not be an act of political correctness. it would not be an insult to the valor of confederate soldiers
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it would simply be an acknowledgement that the cause ebate over the federal flag a symbol embraced by the 21-year-old gunman. the confederate flag is still flying high despite being taken down by a woman who climbed the flagpole and tore it down. there are growing calls to remove it permanently but many still support the flag and what they believe it stands for. joining me now is jeff owe cane the former commander of a sons of confederate veterans chapter. why do you think it should continue to fly? >> it's a war memorial to over 25,000 men when called to duty by their state to bear arms they defended the state of south carolina and died as their state
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had asked them to do. >> the president yesterday, he said it would be an acknowledgment the cause for which they were fighting was wrong. >> we have analyzed this and flag has become such a focal point and whipping post for so many things that i believe and i can't believe for the sons of confederate veterans but for a good sense, i, with respect to my ancestors, would like to take a retrograde and step back and say, look the feeding frenzy and all the controversy is doing more harm to the honor and dignity of the flag and those men that were not slave owners, and they were defending south carolina. succession does not start war,
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invasion starts war. these men, along with so many others stepped forward to defend. 250,000 southerners died in the cause for southern independence perhaps as many as 450,000 union soldiers died and you continue to calculate, it's not unreasonable to say a million people were killed during that conflict that wasn't started by the confederacy. it has to be noted that folks are very easily drawn to the big lie when repeated over and over and they begin to believe it. >> what is the big lie? >> i am sorry? >> what is the big lie? >> the flag -- i will give it to you. the flag is a symbol of hate, racism and bigotry.
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a man had to find something to sell because black teen pregnancy and destruction of the black family structure or disproportionate men of black men in jail and so on was not easy to sell and he said that is a symbol of hate and racism -- >> as you now know this transcends the flag. mitch mcconnell said the statue of confederate symbols, take our final minute to go and tell me what you think about that. >> where is all of this going to go? >> right. >> the scenario is the flag is
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gone okay, kumbaya, let's have a big celebration, and after that oh, my god, i drove by the state house and there is a monument and somebody told me there was 25,000 soldiers underneath of course there is not, and i was so pained and hurt and so offended i had to take the rest of the day off, and instead of bring it down, the now rally cry will be move it out and once the confederate phoupb monument is moved away, and oh, my god, it's another racist it's george washington. are we to cleanse the entire american history? you can't take today's civil and religious and philosophical and legal train of thought and apply it to 1860. in 150 years they are going to
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say about us can you believe those people in 2015 actually killed their own unborn children and they burned these fuels that polluted the air? i can't believe they did that kind of thing. today is different. we are going to step back from the confederate flag and say it's time to tphrurl the flag -- >> it sounds like the debate is not yet over. thank you for being here. >> thank you very much. >> i will show you one of the best parts of president obama's touching eulogy as he pays tribute to the nine charleston victims. preservatives, and no artificial smiles. because clean dressings, taste better. panera. food as it should be.
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to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers have happened in patients taking xeljanz. don't start xeljanz if you have any infection unless ok with your doctor. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz and routinely check certain liver tests. tell your doctor if you have been to a region where fungal infections are common, and if you have had tb, hepatitis b or c or are prone to infections. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take. one pill, twice daily, xeljanz can reduce ra pain and help stop further joint damage, even without methotrexate. ask about xeljanz. i liked it. did we just start looking for a house? it looks pretty good yeah, all right. oh, did you see that listing on zillow i sent you? yup. you see that bathroom? oh well i think that's the one.
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me too. ok. did we just decide to buy a house? i think so. yay. find your way home zillow. congratulations. you're down with crestor. yes! when diet and exercise aren't enough, adding crestor lowers bad cholesterol up to 55%. crestor is not for people with liver disease or women who are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant. tell your doctor all medicines you take. call your doctor if you have muscle pain or weakness, feel unusually tired have loss of appetite, upper belly pain, dark urine or yellowing of skin or eyes. these could be signs of serious side effects. i'm down with crestor! make your move. ask your doctor about crestor. one of the most memorable moments from president obama's eulogy yesterday was when he launched to a solo of amazing
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♪ ♪ w me on twitter if you can spell smerconish. i will see you in two weeks. have a happy fourth of july. top of the hour i am poppy harlow in new york. we begin tonight in upstate new york in that manhunt for convicted murderer david sweat. they have set up road blocks and looking at each and every car in and out of the area and using helicopters and infrared devices and planes and you name it. a law enforcement sou
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