had been a person how totally inappropriate this conversation would be. thank you for joining us. be sure to set your dvr to record "out front" so you can watch anytime. appreciate you watching us always. see you back here tomorrow night. ac 360 starts now. >> good evening. thank you for joining us. they were going to mexico but not before first taking a man's life. that is what surviving fugitive and cop killer david sweat is reportedly telling authorities. and that tonight is our breaking news. he is spilling details from his hospital bed about his now dead partner richard matt their escape from a new york prison. when why they split up who they planned to kill before heading south. on top of that prison guard gene palmer in court answer charges connected to favors he admits in a sworn statement to doing for them inside the clinton correctional facility in dan dannemora. the fbi investigating possible drug corruption there. a lot to bring on the threads and more. late word on the coroner on richard matt and huh he looked when the law caught up with him.

we start with the time line of david sweat's takedown and gary tuchman. >> reporter: the word came over police radios around 3:20 p.m. gunshots fired. scores of police raced to the ironically named town of constible, there was hope david sweat had been captured and fear police officers or civilians could have been hurt. one, only one officer was already at the scene. new york state trooper sergeant jay cook. >> as he was driving down the road he spotted a male who was basically jogging up along the side of the road. he approached him. and as he exited the car the man turned to him, he says hey, come over here. >> the male who sergeant cook saw was david sweat. only about two miles as the the crow flies from the canadian border. >> the male ignored him. called out again. at which time the male turned around kind of look what do you want from me? and he recognized him to be david sweat. >> sergeant cook says sweat took

off from the street into the field. the sergeant chased after him. he was afraid that sweat would run into the woods and disappear. he fired two shots. and the manhunt was over. >> this very rural area has many amish residents. in the aftermath, vehicles were being searched by police. including amish buggies to make sure only residents were allowed back into the area where the capture was made. gene burke and paul meldrom were visiting a family whose home and barn were adjacent to where sweat was caught. >> you see the barn. 600 feet of the other side of the barn where they anpprehended him. if he made it to the end of the field nothing but forest to the border. >> across the street from the field lives a family with two children. michael doyle heard the gunshots. >> when i heard two shots. didn't know if one was him or them. or back and forth. >> within three or four minutes. swarms of police arrived. he took these pictures of the police cars estimating there

were between 40 and 50 vehicles on the rural road with two officers and most of the cars. >> they threw their cars in park they ran out of their cars. some had guns in hand. throwing on coats. they were returning through the field. and then the ambulance came in. and the field. and headed done to where he was shot. >> reporter: you can see the tire tracks of the vehicles in the wet field. also crime tape remains where the field turns into forest. which would have been the beginning of sweat's rut to canada. >> to see all this was overwhelming. >> reporter: two ambulances raced to the nearby hospital. leading to fears more than one person had been shot. but sweat was the only person who had been hurt. [ cheers and applause ] in franklin county where most of the 3 week long manhunt was centered there was great relief. 200 residents gathered in front of the county courthouse to show appreciation to law enforcement agents who risked their lives off to find the two escapees. >> they did an amazing job. tracking these guys and getting them. >> reporter: 1,300 men and women

looking for the killers. but it came done to one man, sergeant jay cook whose alert patrolling on this quiet road put an end to the fears of a region. gary joins us now. close to where just steps away in fact from where david sweat was shot taken into custody. how long would it have taken swelt to sweat to actually get to canada from where you are if he hadn't been caught? >> well earlier in the evening, andersen i took a hike in the woods to get an idea of the beginning of the journey to canada. this is wilderness. i mean a forest. not woods. there are no paths whatsoever. it's mosquito infested land. there are holes that you step in that go very deep. very dangerous. it took me a decent pace. about 15 minutes to go a quarter mile. 15 minutes to come back. if you had the desearire to go fast inmate escaping the law you could probably do a mile in less than an hour. two miles less than two hours. when he got to this spot at 3. 20. yesterday, no police officer here yesterday, sweat could have probably gotten to the

unguarded canadian border by about 5:15 in the afternoon. i must say the canadian mounties and authorities on the other side would have done a fine job with the evidence if sweat was in canada. much more complicated dealing with international manhunt or manhunt here in the united states. anderson. >> i talked to somebody you talked to in your meese who was saying that when he crossed over the border to canada to visit the family on the land where you are now, on the canadian side there really wasn't a high level of visible law enforcement. which there was on the u.s. side. so who knows what might have happened when he crossed over initially. david sweat's condition upgraded. we said at the top. so is our picture of exactly what he and richard matt had in mind for their escape. learning more about their plan a, and what they did when it came unglued. joining from the hospital in albany where sweat is recovering and talking, miguel marques. what are authorities saying sweat is telling them? >> well giving them pretty

solid details about how they carried all this out and what their plans were they want to hear from him he is the best link they have to unravel exactly how they carried off this escape from that prison. saying their plan a, there was a lot of questions whether or not it was, was in fact joyce mitchell prison worker who was going to give them a ride soon as popped up out of the manhole. sweat told investigators their plan was to kill her husband and go to mexico toasting margaritas on the beach before any one was wiser. that did not work out. she got cold feet. scramble fordd for a plan b. not making good head way. got 32 miles away from the prison. a mile and a half a day. a snail's pace if you are trying to get away from that many law enforcement. andersen. >> we are learning details about what shape mitched are matt ed arerich

marred -- richard matt was in when confronted by police? >> not as terrible. one authority said he smelled like he was drinking also dressed like a hunter. in camouflage gear heavy boots. they had broken into a cabin. clearly got ahold of proper clothing for for the, the environment that they were in. and they were willing to go the whole way. the coroner said he did have bug bites on him. but, that they weren't as terrible as one might expect. that they weren't as swollen as one might expect. leading them to believe that perhaps for some period of days they did have cover in some sort of cabin or something appropriate for the elements. anderson. >> miguel mar ketz.quesmarques. next to kevin mulverhill a sheriff, sheriff, appreciate you being with us you actually saw david sweat after he was shot. what did he look like? was he talking? was he saying anything at that

point? >> no. i saw him. i was at the hospital when they unloaded him from the ambulance and brought him into the emergency room. he was semiconscious. eyes were barely open. he wasn't speaking. had a respirator over his mouth. his chest was covered. >> what made you, and law enforcement, so sure that he was in in that area? >> well some of the fbi profilers had said right along that sweat would try to make an attempt to go north towards the border. i think that it was state fried day at press conference we were casting our nets further north. we actually started patrols in this area. late thursday early friday. even after matt's shooting. each after we set up the perimeter. we continued the patrols in this area. just thinking on the possibility that he was, he was really going to try to enter into canada. >> it is really fascinating. in terms of what we understand he is telling law enforcement. everyone had been wondering if joyce mitchell had been plan a, or perhaps a red herring. and seems like she really was

plan a. >> yeah you know for as intelligent as these guys are, breaking out of maximum security prison. evading police for three weeks, joyce mitchell was plan a. >> do you think that joyce mitchell and gene palmer are as far as this goes in terms helping inside the prison or others likely to be implicated? >> i think there is probably others that are implicated that may, may not know they played a role in this. some small thing somebody did for them. you know when you add those all up it's look building a wall. everybody i think provided a brick so to speak until their plan was complete. >> i mean this thing, it is obviously been going on a long time. you, all the law enforcement personnel have been working in a lot of shifts. incredibly difficult conditions. very dangerous, obviously. what does it feel look to knowike to know it is done? >> what a sense of relief. i was in the forward operating base when we got the call that sergeant cook was down here and

had fired some shots. and the subject was down. just a tremendous relief that went through, just tremendous relief went through the forward operating base. couple hoolts.ts. hollers. hand shakes. relief for the community. >> i assume after-action reports will be done. in terms of the actual manhunt. do you think there are things you can learn from this manhunt that could be applied down the road in the future, whether in this area or elsewhere? >> sure every time that we had a search like this you know the state police went through the bucky phillips search number of years ago. we learned things from that. and we applied those here. and there are things we have learned here we'll sit done as a group, and have discussion. and we did really well. we can do better. >> congratulations. and the best to all those involved in this incredible manhunt. thank you very much. coming up next we, have more late details tonight about what we briefly mentioned at the top of the program. the fbi has now started

investigating possible corruption at dannemora including a heroin ring inside the prison. we'll bring you up to speed on that. why nbc told donald trump essentially "you're fired." what the presidential candidate has to say about it. and of course he certain three has a lot to say about it. milk has 8 grams of high-quality protein. which could be the difference between just living life. and milking it. start every day with the power of protein and milk life. benny's the oldest dog in the shelter. he needed help all day so i adopted him. when my back pain flared up, we both felt it. i tried tylenol but it was 6 pills a day. with aleve it's just two pills, all day. now i'm back! aleve. all day strong.

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was in court. heading to court. a sworn statement from him detailing the favors he did for sweat and richard matt. however the local district attorney andrew wily says sweat has told authorities palm were was not involved in the actual escape plan. his alleged actions and reports of security lapses and guard sleeping on the job does make you wonder what exactly was going on inside that prison. and you would not be alone in asking that question. state investigators have been at the clinton correctional facility since last week as you may know. today we learned that the fbi launched a prob ofe of its own. details from our correspondent evan perez who joins us from washington. this fbi probe, what do we know about it? >> it does appear this prison was a dysfunctional place. the fbi is investigating possible criminal activity inside clinton correctional facility including heroin trafficking. now investigators want to know whether the two former fugitive thousands, richard matt and

david sweat were working with guards as part of the drug ring. now law enforcement officials tell cnn that some of the prison employees who have been interviewed described widespread availability of heroin at the prison and role of employees getting the drugs inside. we know matt and sweat had a lot of freedom inside this prison. the question now is -- was there alleged involvement in some of the criminal activity part of the reason for that freedom, andersen. >> do we know if either joyce mitchell or gene palmer are suspected of being involved in in this heroin ring or other illegal activity? >> that's one of the big concerns here the fbi has already identified a couple of prison employees other than mitchell and palmer. and so the question -- the suggestion here is problems run much deeper than just those two people who have now been arrested and charged anderson. we should say that the new york state inspector general is doing its own investigation into security and other lapses that

led to the escapes. >> evan perez, fascinating development. thank you. to platsburg, new york where gene palmer and his new lawyer went briefly before a judge. also there was cnn's jean casarez who joins us. a fast proceeding. take us through it. >> it was fast. the biggest thing to see gene palm palmer we didn't see him before. he did not enter a plea in the court. his attorney said he was waiving any mr. appearances. a small court. justice court the they are now going to go to county court. district attorney wily said he will be convening a grand jury taking this to a grand jury. maybe not up until a month from now because he does have a new attorney. he wants to allow him to have time to learn the case. >> what was palmer's demeanor like during the hearing. we are seeing him obviously reporters asking him questions on the way in. he is not saying anything. looks rather stoic. what about inside? >> a good word stoic. i sat right behind him.

he seemed frozen in court. he seemed distressed. he seemed uncomfortable. and he just seemed very scared to tell you the truth. he didn't speak to anyone except to the judge when he had to say a few words. he signed the waiver to go into the larger court. when he arrived the media here absolutely surrounded him asks him every question he didn't respond to anything. and when court was over he just drove away. but these are very serious felonies. because they're alleging he brought tools from the outside to the inside four different times for matt and sweat. seemingly so they could fix their electric box on the other side of their cell in the catwalk. the same area that they happened to get the hole and escape from. and then also that he allegedly burned and buried paintings that they made for him after they escaped from prison. >> what if anything is the da saying about whether or not other prison employees could be charged with helping these guys escape. is he saying anything? >> you know he is sort of am

biff -- ambivalent on the answer. a week ago he said they expected no other charges of other prison employees. this morning on cnn he said there is an investigation. we are looking to see if there are more charges. i asked him the question as he came out of court today. his response to me was no comment. >> all right. well obviously we'll be watching. jean casarez. appreciate your reporting. >> coming up -- clues to how matt and sweat lived on the run. forensic evidence that helped authorities close in on them. plus state officials who are blocking this. resisting the supreme court's ruling on marriage. the high level state officials who are encouraging them. they say they have the constitution behind them. the question is do they really? legal advice ahead from our jeffrey toobin. can also lead to tooth decay and bad breath? well, there is biotene

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david sweat's escape ended like his partner's did in gunfire. began of course with help. how it transpired week after week is told in a trail of clues left behind. that is certainly a story in itself. more on that now from our tom foreman.

>> reporter: on the run in the great north woods. the two inmates had to live off their wits and the land. unable to move freely on the roads or in towns where everyone was on the lookout. >> these are two dangerous individuals. >> so what kept them ahead of the chase? first they had maps showing just how close they were to the canadian border and to cabins barns, remote houses dozens of places where they might find supplies. second camouflage clothing. when or how they obtained it is a mystery but it could have made it harder for ground patrol to spot them. third, pepper. yes, pepper. >> you go in there, you give me a chili powder curry, and pepper. >> look coolhand luke used it to confound tracking dog. early on they had a strong trail. then lost it. >> we believe that possibly the two males were using pepper to

throw the scent off of the dogs that were tracking them. >> reporter: fourth the inmates obtained a 20-gauge shot gun. one more thing to make officers move extra cautiously in their pursuit. nbc news obtained these images of a rustic cabin which police say contained signs of intruders, a pair of prison issue underwear and dna from the two inmates. >> there are numerous items we recovered from the cabin. >> reporter: officials say as the inmates breck into other places the net tightened. soon richard matt was shot and killed. by the time david sweat was shot and captured. police say all he had to sustain himself was a pack of pop tarts. tom foreman, cnn. >> dig deeper into this with cnn contributor contributor, lawrence kobolinski and chris swecker,

who led the search for eric rudolph. >> they didn't have a large amount of insect bites, swelling. seems like they may have been spending a fair amount of their time inside some of these cabins? >> yeah, it does. they did a great job of foraging making their way hopping cabin to cabin. i read at least, three cabins that they went into. there are probably well stocked. that's where they got the equipment, got the maps possibly. >> doctor the whole notion of pepper as a way to throw off the scent from dogs does that really work? >> well if you watch coolhand luke, yeah you think it works. i think for the most part pepper is a myth. it doesn't really work the way people thing it does. but if you have a high enough concentration. i think it will irritate the eyes the nose the throat and i think it will throw a dog off if the dog wants to -- walk around the pepper and kind of regain the scent it can do that.

but, i certainly think in the right concentration it will throw the dog off. >> the question were they hoarding pepper in the prison. they brought with them. or the cabins how much would they have? >> awful this is possible. after all, the dogs didn't dupe the job they thought they would. >> because it rained so often, does that throw dogs off? >> rain could have an adverse effect. the wind. direction of the wind can throw the dog off. the dogs are amazing. they can smellbetter than a human being. they have 5 billion receptors in the nose. they're amazing creatures still you can throw them off. >> chris, it's interesting after successfully lyly eluding law enforcement, sweat was found walking through a wide open field. does that surprise you? or is that the kind of mistake fugitives end up making at some point? >> well it surprised me.

because we heard representations and very confident ones from the search leader that they had him, they had him inside a perimeter. they dentidn't know where he was. friday night they were talking about the perimeter. >> very much. it turns out though they he very smartly separated earlier. and he was making his way north. apparently matt had had enough. and the psychopath that he was, he was willing to take on law enforcement in a more direct fashion. and sweat was smarter. he was trying to work his way through. it is similar to eric robert rudolph. just good policing by a lone officer that caught him. it was out of an area of focus, they were not focused as much in that area as the perimeter they had defined. >> chris, it is amazing when you think about how kind of relatively close he was to canada. he was not far from a very heavily wooded forested area gary tuchman not even a place that has trails and stuff.

that dense. from there uninterrupted all the way to the border. >> yeah he may have -- been a little bit careless. maybe more than a little careless when he looked out and didn't see these, you know this huge presence of law enforcement in the search teams. i think maybe he felt like he could make a sprint to the border. it wasn't that far. had the maps to tell him that. so he took a chance. i think probably fatigue was a factor as well the you get to where you can't think clearly. >> doctor is there a way for authorities to tell how long ago a dna sample was left? i assume with rotted food there is. bugs things like that. >> unfortunately, just looking at the dna itself. you can't really tell. you can't tell when it was deposited. yes, you are right, if let's the say it comes from saliva from the bite of an apple. you could sense from the apple how old the apple is. that will give you some idea. but from dna alone, you cannot tell when it was deposited. >> and in terms of testing it. we talked about this before.

but it is interesting to me how, you know often time a crime is committed. well dna won't be available for two weeks. you're saying it can be done -- >> within 90 minutes. a lot of credit to the crime lab to do this kind of work. prioritized it. worked nonstop. got the results quickly. that's the state of the art nowadays. >> chris, in terms of them splitting up? did that surprise you? we talked in the past couple week how often they stay together while they can use each other, while there is a benefit to it. did it surprise you that they seemed to have separated a couple days previously? >> not surprising. i mean these people are more -- they're can serndoncerned about themselves. they're narcissistic. not like one was a hero and take care of the other one. when sweat realized matt was a burden. heave took off he took off in the other direction. not that surprising. >> it would be fascinating to hear details how that conversation took place. was it amicable.

was it just taking off? just interesting to see how much he actually reveals. chris shwecker thank you. >> nbc dumps trump. cut the ties with trump. >> also ahead, celebration and wedding bell throughs out the nation after the supreme court landmark decision. but not everywhere. we will take you to a town in texas where the county clerk is refusing toer to marriage licenses to gay couples. introducing the first ever gummy multivitamin from centrum. a complete, and tasty new way to support... your energy... immunity... and metabolism like never before. centrum multigummies. see gummies in a whole new light. --i don't know my credit score. that's really important. i mean - i don't know my credit score. don't you want to buy a house...like, ever? you should probably check out credit karma, it's free. credit? karma? free? credit karma. really free credit scores.

on the apprentice donald trump fires people. today on the receiving end of the message. nbc universal under growing pressure from hispanic groups dumped trump over remarks he made on illegal immigration when he declared his presidential run. >> they're sending people that have lots of problems and they're bringing those problems with us. they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists and some i assume are good people. >> the remarks sparked a

firestorm. true to form trump is not backing down. >> reporter: nbc universal cut its ties with donald trump reciting derogatory statements calling mexican immigrants. rapists, drug dealers and criminals. the real estate mogul stood by the comments before a packed house in chicago. quoting a report by fusion owned by spanish language channel univision and abc. >> they thing it is like mother teresa is coming across the border okay. this one said 80% of central american women and girls are raped crossing into the united states. well i said drug dealers. i said killers. and i said rapists. >> nbc says it will no longer air the miss usa or miss universe pageants partly owned by trump following a similar step by univision which dumped the event. trump is threatening to sue.

>> i will be suing univision and maybe nbc too. >> nbc was facing growing pressure to respond with 200,000 people signing on to a petition on change.org calling on the company to dump trump. angry protesters denouncing him outside the chicago event. the reality star and now presidential candidate had planned to give up his hit show "the apprentice." amid the controversy, trump has been surge in the republican polls, up to second place in the first primary state of new hampshire. oozing confidence in classic trump style he touted the latest cnn poll. >> there is a cnn poll that just came out. they have interesting categories. who is the best on terrorism? that's pretty important subject? trump right at the top. who is the best on handling international trade? like not even close. trump is almost double anybody else right? that's incredible.

>> as for the man besting him in the poll former florida governor jeb bush trump says he is a nice guy who can't win in 2016. >> believe me he will never, ever in a million years. >> all right. lot to talk about. athena jones joins me along with bill carter and jeffrey toobin. athena the news conference where trump addressed this, what was it like? contentious i understand? >> it was quite contentious. in a small, crowded room. half of the questions more than half of the questions actually were about these comments he made controversial comments that are now cost him this relationship with nbc. and with univision. so it was very contentious. several journalists were shouting at mr. trump. it seemed as the there was certainly folks who took his comments personally. i should mention that before the event there were people protesting outside, chanting about his hate speech. what they called his hate speech. and saying that nbc should dump

trump which of course nbc did do in the end. one person had a donald trump pinata. i should till you donald trump was defiant. he is not backing down. he is really doubling down. he even blasted nbc. he said blasted them for standing behind lying brian williams but not behind people that tell it like it is. as unpleasant as that may be. he really sees himself as a truth tellteller. >> this is not the first time donald trump said things like this or things that are controversial, the whole thing about president obama and the birth certificate. claimed to send investigators to hawaii. nbc kept him around after all those comments. why dump him now? is it ratings? is it the fact that he is a presidential candidate? is that all the difference? >> i think those are the two big things. if you are running for president. everything you say is magnified, hugely magnified. the run of trump as a huge success for them has not

continued. he is still a success, i guess. and they would look toike to keep his show. given the kind of comments and the fact he is going to be running for office means he wouldn't be on the air for them. they have to take the show off the air. i think it is convenient for them to step away from him. you are right, all the comments he was making about president obama you think would have drawn some level of reaction from them. it didn't. that was donald being donald the way they thought in those days. now he is donald being presidential candidate. a big difference. >> bill nbc wasn't quick to make the decision. it has been several days since he made the comments. i mean i am wondering is it univision's decision that forced nbc's hand? they're keeping "the apprentice" just getting a different host is that right? >> that's what they're saying. i don't know if that is going to work. they tried martha stewart, it didn't work. i think they were boxed in by the fact that univision made this this decision. there was huge pressure on them from social media.

i think they were generally uncomfortable the they have been uncomfortable before with things mr. trump said. this is what he does. they liked it for a long time. because he is excellent at drawing publicity and attention. very good. very skillful at that. this is of a different ball game now. running for office. saying thing that are extremely controversial t to try to you know enhance his standing in the republican primaries. and that's an inconvenience for them. i think they finally said we have to do something about it. >> jeff legally, he says he gigs to is going to sue univision, perhaps nbc, likely? >> it depend on one thing. which is the contract. this is not just a judge is not going to look at who is right and who is wrong. a judge is going to say what does the contract say between all the parties. what are the provisions that allow nbc and univision to drop trump? now most of the time in the entertainment business there are provisions that allow talent to

be dropped if they do something that embarrasses the company. what that is is often up for debate. that's where a lawsuit can come from. but the one place where he might have a, a hook for a lawsuit, is like i'm donald trump. what did you expect me to say? this is why he is famous. he says outrageous things. the idea that he could be fired for saying outrageous things is maybe something that he could work with. >> bill, does he have ownership in the apprentice or just the paid host? >> he does not have ownership in the apprentice he has ownership in the beauty pageants which they separated from. i think that would be the area where he would pursue legal action. i think one thing jeffrey said which is true in the entertainment world, relationships are severed for all kind of reasons. usually called creative differences. and clearly they're going to say

there is a creative difference here in terms of what image he has, et cetera. and they're uncomfortable with it. i don't know of many lawsuits in the entertainment world ever been successful based on the fact that they have done something with the talent and they decided he is just not what they want anymore. >> the talent almost always loses in these circumstances. often it end with some kind of settlement. the talent gets some money to go away. i think trump is enjoying as all way the attention and the controversy. >> you're so cynical. >> you know i should be much more naive about how decent and good donald from temperature istrump is. perhaps i am not. i think he will probably not wind up filing an actual lawsuit. if he does it will probably just sort of peter out. but, you know he is where he wants to be on television. >> athena i understand trump was asked about who he goes to for advice when giving speeches. what did he say? >> well this was interesting.

a lot of us tried to get a lot of questions in. cnn producer betsey klein asked him who does he go to advice for generally? he said i lookike to sort of think for myself. you know who is very good for advice my wife melania and ivanka his daughter, ivanka trump. interesting he brings up two family members he seeks, looks for advice in addition to himself. he didn't mention any other experts or friends. >> the only experts have the last name trump apparently. >> how about that? how about that? >> jeff thank you very much. bill carter great to have you on. athena jones. jeff will stick around. we have more legal issues to address. celebrations of the supreme court decision legalizing marriage for everyone barely over. a county in texas refusing to give same-sex couples marriage licenses and even talk about whether they're actually allowed to do that in that county. next.

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just days after the landmark supreme court ruling that made same-sex marriage legal. there is resistance issuing a

statement, the supreme court manufactured a right that simply does not exist. he said county clerks can refuse to give same-sex couples marriage licenses. it is important to know any clerk who wishes to defend their religious objections and chooses not to issue licenses may well face litigation or a fine but numerous lawyers stand ready to assist clerks defending their religious beliefs in many cases on a pro bono basis and i will do everything from this office to be a public voice for those standing in defense of their rights. we asked the attorney general to come on the program. he declined. some county clerks in texas are taking his advice and won't give marriage licenses to same-sex couples. one of the clerks is in hood county. cnn's ryan nobles joins us from granbury texas with more. i know you fried to talk to the county clerk. what happened? >> yeah andersen.

katie lange, the county clerk in hood texas, among clerks who weren't going to issue licenses to same-sex couples. we came here to find out why. went into her office. she wasn't granting any interviews. we waited for her to leave for the day and this is what happened. hi ms. lange, ryan nobles from cnn. hoping you could provide clarity how your county will handle the same sex ruling from the supreme court. >> i already gave my interview. i don't really want to talk to you right now. >> you are a public official ma'am. there are people that don't have the clarity how your county is going to handle this could you explain that to us? >> i already gave an interview. >> you didn't give an interview to us ma'am. are you not going to issue the licenses then? >> i am going to post something on my website. you can read about it tomorrow. okay. thank you. >> you can't tell us one way or another the county is going to do it or not? >> thank you, appreciate it.

>> thank you. >> wow. >> so a public official will not even explain her public position despite her position of authority and people in that county now just have to wait until she decides to post this on her website? >> she did not give us any clarity what will be in the statement tomorrow morning. the interview with the fort worth star telegram where she said she believes she has the right through the first amendment to deny licenses based on guidance provided by the attorney general. we talked to a constitutional law professor from university of texas today he said it is not quite that simple. that perhaps there is guidance within what the attorney general is saying to individuals within the office but not the entire office itself. and he said that the best evidence of that is while the attorney general said he is going to publicly help the county clerks he is not going to represent them himself, but hand

them off to lawyers who will do it for free. same-sex couples here we should point out that ms. lange has the not received any requests from same-sex couples yet we'll have to wait and see tomorrow. >> ryan nobles appreciate it. a lot of questions whether a clerk like that lady katie lange, in texas can do this. where this will end up? back up with us is jeffrey toobin. can she do that? just say it is against my religious beliefs to issue marriage licenses though the supreme court said it is the law of the land. >> she can't do it if she stops the whole county from issuing marriage licenses. now if she makes other officials in her office available to to conduct those, the ceremonies then i think she personally could refuse to do it. but hood county is part of texas. texas is part of the united states. after the decision last week same-sex marriage is the law of the land in all 50 states.

they have to comply. >> can, i guess, where does the role of a public official and private citizen, where does that -- where is that line? because can somebody at the dmv say well i don't like gay people. they're violating my religious beliefs i am not going to issue them a driver's license. >> that appears to be the position the attorney general of texas is taking that individuals have that right. i don't think -- the courts would recognize it in those circumstances. i think perhaps in a marriage situation the judge, a judge might allow an individual to excuse him or herself. but for a whole county, no way. >> we should also just point out this is not churches being forced to marry gay people against their teachings. this is this is the couldn'ty. this is the state. this is a completely secular office. >> another way of thinking about this whole issue in 1967 the supreme court said that interracial marriages had to be

allowed. and the justification. >> based on equal protection. >> very much the same. the loving decision, cited repeatedly in justice kennedy's opinion last week. and a lot of the say justifications were used for banning interracial marriage. that god didn't intend for the races to marry. and there was a lot of objection. in fact public opinion polls were more opposed to interracial marriage than they are opposed to same-sex marriage today. but the court was very clear that this is now the law of the land. people had to comply. >> using that argument though could then based on what the texas attorney general said could, could if that woman decided she didn't like interracial marriages, obviously she has not taken that position but if a public official says i dent like interracial marriages it goes against my religious beliefs and my reading the bible, can i ignore the supreme court ruling on this? >> ted cruz was asked that exact question today by savannah

guthrie on "today" show. he ducked it. a parallel situation. the opponents of the supreme court decision don't want to answer that question because interracial marriage is now so accepted in our society and so recognized as something that only you know really bigoted people oppose. they don't want to draw the parallel. the parallel is precise. >> it's precise because the ruling by the supreme court back in '67, loving v. virginia it's the same idea it was used to justify the supreme court ruling this time. >> precisely. >> equal protection under the law. >> weekable proequal protection of the 14th amendment. the state is different from a private individual and different from a church. one thing that is clear. justice kennedy went out of his way to say this. is that no state can force a church to marry two men or marry two women. churches have absolute discretion to decide who can

conduct, who can be married under their auspices. but the state is very different. you know, marriage is a set of rights you get from the state. it gets you tax rights. rights for custody. rights to visit people in the hospital. and that is something that -- is -- is the state has to abade by the 14th amendment. >> how does this get worked out? does this end up going back to the supreme court? >> if there are counties, count yelz that refuse to conduct the weddings it will gel to federal court. i don't think the supreme court would waste its time on this. there is no question federal court in the most conservative jurisdiction in light of the supreme court opinion on this exact subject. >> interesting, the state attorney general, clearly playing politics whatever his personal beliefs are. he is playing politics. look i am not going to defend you or pay your court costs. but i am rooting for you. >> i am rooting for you. basically a meaningless statement. >> moral support. >> jeff toobin.

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