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tv   CNN Special Report  CNN  July 8, 2015 6:00pm-7:01pm PDT

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clinton to get his thoughts on all of them. you will want to hear that ahead. that will be tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. hope you john us. that does it for us in this hour. the cnn special report, no laughing matter inside the cosby allegations starts now. >> reporter: last fall the legendary bill cosby was restaking his claim as an a list superstar at the age of 77. >> bill cosby was really looking at a career rejuvenation. >> reporter: 30 years after his nbc blockbuster the network was cooking up another cosby sitcom. netflix had plans to stream a come despecial. and a 500-page biography was a "the new york times"
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best-seller. >> and then it hits. >> reporter: an avalanche of sexual assault allegations. >> and he offered me a large white pill. >> last thing remember i had blacked out. and cosby mounting me. >> he drug and raped me. >> you are such a perverted creep. >> and now, shocking newly released court documents show cosby talking about a powerful sedative. in a deposition, the plaintiff's lawyer asks, when you got the quaaludes was it in your mind you were going to use these quaaludes for young women you wanted to have sex with? cosby responds, yes. >> do you see this as the sort of the smoking gun that's been missing in all of these allegations? >> reporter: bill cosby has not been charged with any crimes yet he has gone from one of america any most revered entertainers to one of its most reviled. >> even las vegas canceled his show. when you are too sleazy for vegas. >> reporter: no laughing matter.
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inside the cosby allegations. >> reporter: denver, colorado. it's 1,000 miles from los angeles. 2,000 miles from new york city. but denver is where barbara bowman decided she could grow up to be an actress. >> i was a go-gert, i was adventurous. i wanted this career. i had a passion to do this. >> reporter: by 16 she was starring in local commercials. >> come on up to colorado's favorite ski resort. >> reporter: by 17, she was ready to audition for a superstar. bill cosby. >> he was america's favorite dad. he was everyone's father figure that they watched on tv every, every week. >> reporter: cosby was friend with bowman's talent agent joe
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farrell. tell me about your agent, can you describe her? >> well she was known in town as the barracuda. >> jimmy: jo farrell herself told the local kiwanis club if being a barracuda means i work very hard, protect my people, and being a good business woman, then i accept it. her talent agency, j.f. images had a big reputation. and barbara bowman had what it took to be a star. >> and she would come in there lay down the law. you think this is tough, wait till you get to the next level. you think i'm tough. get used to it now. >> reporter: bowman's shot at the next level she says came in 1985. bill cosby was coming to denver. and her agent said he was scouting for potential stars. >> so when he came into town and she selected me you know it was a big deal. >> reporter: a big deal because
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cosby was the quintessential success story. rising from the projects of philadelphia, to the heights of hollywood. >> you don't get larger, more successful than bill cosby unless you are barack obama. >> bob huber covers cosby for "philadelphia" magazine. >> he was the first leading black man on a network back in the mid '60s. ♪ >> reporter: cosby's performance in "i spy" won him three emmys. but that was nothing compared to what came next. by 1985, he had become a television juggernaut with "the cosby show." >> what you need to do now is go to the next level if you want justine back. >> what's that? >> begging. >> reporter: for eight seasons on nbc he starred as the lovable dr. cliff huxtable, patriarch of
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an upper middle-class family that defied racial stereotypes, revived the sitcom genre and generated mega bucks in syndication. >> that made him a huge, huge star not only in the african-american world but of course for white middle-class americans as well. >> reporter: barbara bowman says the plan was to audition for the superstar at the turn of the century nightclub. she was nervous, excited, groomed, and ready to meet bill cosby. it was a moment that would change her life. when we come back. >> at one point i went like this and started to move his hand away. he said no you can't do that. you need to relax.
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bill cosby has earned millions of fans. hundreds of millions of dollars. and the admiration of many including colleagues like felicia rashad. >> he is generous. kind, inclusive. >> reporter: in 1985 with cosby's popularity soaring, barbara bowman says she was tapped by her agent to audition for him at a denver nightclub. she recalls he asked about her childhood. >> he zeroed in on the fact that i really was sort of a vulnerable kid. no dad. no father figure in my life. and wanted to take on that role. and it was an honor to be there. and i wanted him to care about me. like a father would care about a
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daughter. >> reporter: then she says it was showtime. to see how well this budding actress could perform. >> he wanted me to do an acting improv exercise. where i was intoxicated. so he explained to me that it was going to be a little uncomfortable. that if we are really authentic in our acting we would have to tap in and let my guard down and trust him. he had me close my eyes and proceed to act drunk. he is behind me. he is, he is stroking my hair and stroking my neck. and you know, and rubbing my shoulders and getting me to relax. and meanwhile his hands are moving down onto my breasts. and at one point i, i went like this and started to move his hand away. he said no you can't do that. you need to relax. >> reporter: for a 17-year-old aching to be an actress she says
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it was confusing. >> you know i wanted to trust hip the him. i really, really wanted to trust him. >> reporter: bowman's agent jo farrell is now retired. she declined to comment to cnn but in 2006 she told the "denver post" i don't know the truth of it. it's mind-boggling. i don't set up interviews in bars. and it makes me sad because my reputation has always been golden in this city. i have never seen cosby to be anything but a gentleman. that's what bowman says she wanted to believe too. >> and that he was really going to groom me and mentor me and he had a lot that he could offer me. >> bemowman says cosby invited r to see some of his shows. there was seattle and then reno. there he pressured her to perform a scene in his hotel room. >> he turned out the lights. he made me close my eyes.
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and went through an exercise, a trust exercise. it was sexu >> it was sexual? >> that was sexual. >> he had his pants off? >> yes. or down at least. >> he had his pants down. and he forced your hand on him. >> yes. >> and were you drugged? >> i don't know. but i know that i was frigid and frozen with fear and just went into a zone. and mechanically went through the motion. i felt so violated. and i felt like disgusted. i couldn't tell anybody. i felt dirty. >> why was it not an option to tell anybody at the agency what hap ♪ >> i was full of shame, fear, dis
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disgust. it was just too far-fetched for anybody to believe. >> how were you able to get past that to see him again? >> a coping mechanism, survival mode kicked in. i was just, i was so shocked that i wanted to just believe that it didn't happen. >> you know it was way back when nobody sued any body. >> reporter: after working as a model and then for jf images diane mcfarland knew how the acting business could be. >> and i think there was a lot of confusion with these girls. maybe everybody has to do a little something. so it was, it was terrifying. you wouldn't know what to do. >> reporter: mcfarland says bowman would eventually confide in her. >> when she came to you what were the conversations like? >> i just remember that sunny was traumatized from sexual abuse. i don't remember the details. i just remember the tears and holding her and telling her she would be okay. >> reporter: mcfarland wish
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she's had done more to protect bowman. >> i would have lost my job, that is scary. i am just a different person now too. i am not excusing it. >> reporter: for a year, bowman took classes and prepared until she says her agent jo farrell declared her ready for new york. >> she was looking to always graduate her talent into the big leagues. >> reporter: so bowman left college for the big apple. >> just getting off the plane was like, oh, my gosh. i am really here. >> reporter: bowman says her agent and skcosby paid for her apartment and classes at this acting school. >> i felt that this was an amazing opportunity. >> reporter: an opportunity with hard work might lead to a role on tv's number one show. was the thinking that bill cosby was recruiting to be on "the cosby show." >> yes, not necessarily like i'm taking you out of denver, taking
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you to new york and you are going to be on the show. that was all paufrlt trt of thef items that would be available. >> reporter: success for the actress also meant success for the agent. >> millions of young women want to be actresses. and i have got a team of people behind me that believe in me. that care about me. i felt lucky. >> reporter: but bowman says that feeling would change. drastically. when we come back -- >> i was drugged. i was assaulted. and i was raped. >> reporter: and later in newly released court documents. cosby reveals his secret about drugs and sex. i take these out... ...to put in dr. scholl's active series insoles. they help reduce wear and tear on my legs,
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find the acting career he dreamed of. with the backing of her agent and bill cosby one of the country's biggest superstars she thought she had a shot. >> i'm going to prove it i have it in me. i will be the model actor. model student. they were going to open those doors for me. >> reporter: open those doors she says as long as she played by their rules. >> i found myself in new york then under complete and utter control of him and my agent. i became very isolated, i was put into an apartment, and i was supposed to just very, stay on the straight and narrow. go straight to acting classes. come straight back. the rude awakening came here. bill cosby's manhattan brownstone. when's the last time you saw th this? >> that night.
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>> reporter: she says cosby invited her over for what was supposed to be tutoring. >> i had one glass of wine. went upstairs. started the acting exercise and that was it. i -- i just remember putting the script down because i needed look i was feeling fuzzy, dizzy. it was like a lobotomy. where you are there, you are awake, but you're not there. you are vacant. and just the baffled state of mind. next thing i know i'm in the bathroom. and -- and i am throwing >> reporter: bowman says she didn't know why she was throwing
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up. cosby would tell her she drank too much. she didn't even finish her glass of wine. >> as i am throwing up over the toilet and he is right here. and the robe is tied but it's open. and the boxer shorts are open. and his penis is out and brushing against my back. >> reporter: your panty are on you or off you? >> they're on and pulled over to the side. and like all messed up. and i knew what happened. >> reporter: how did you know what happened? >> um, because a woman knows. and i was -- i was -- wet and dirty. i was drugged. i was assaulted.
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and i was raped. >> reporter: and this time bowman says she mustered the courage to tell her agent, jo farrell back in denver. >> and she did nothing. and insinuated that, that that didn't happen. what are you talking about? how could you say such a thing? >> farrell says that conversation never happened. telling the "denver post" the women she represented never said anything to me about this. but back in new york, barbara bowman says she was distraught. >> i was so freaked out, getting that response was just crushing. >> reporter: unable to get support from her agent. bowman says she turned to a lawyer. >> he didn't believe me. he called my claims preposterous. that's bill cosby you are talking about. and laughed me out of the office. that's all it took was one more
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person not to believe me. >> reporter: demoralized and alone. bowman did not file a police report. after that, why didn't you sever all contact with him? >> it wasn't like that. i was a prisoner -- i was completely and utterly dependent. >> reporter: dependent and with no choice. when she says cosby and her agent moved her to long island, 25 miles away from manhattan. why did they move you out here? >> i've don't know. you know. i felt like they were hiding me. in this tiny little world. and i was isolated from everybody. one of the rules was no visitors. it was very restricted. >> reporter: restricted, isolated and controlled she says. >> it was like i was always on edge. >> reporter: it was while you were living here that atlantic city happened?
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>> yes. bill cosby invited me down to the shore. he was performing down there. >> reporter: she went. once she got to her hotel room, bowman says she realized her luggage was missing. and she started to panic. >> i felt very vulnerable and just i wanted my stuff. and i started to call from his room. he called me done to the room. as soon as i picked up the phone started calling concierge, he started to just go crazy. and slammed the phone down. told me not to worry about the luggage. turn the lights out. bowman says all she remembers is waking up the next morning in her room, undressed with her suitcase. >> and i got a call from cosby. and he summons me over to his room. yelling at me. >> reporter: what was he yelling at you about? >> that i embarrassed him. i was loud. and i let the whole hotel know
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that i was there. now the hotel is going to wonder what he is duoing with a 19-year-old girl in his suite. and what's the big deal about the luggage. and on and on and on. >> reporter: cosby she says became violent. as she described in a phone call to her best friend denise victor. >> she told me, you know, it's bill cosby. it's bill cosby. >> he threw me down on the bed. jumped on top of me. straddled me. put his arm under my throat. >> she kept saying he is an animal. he is an animal. >> i am laying there like this. begging him. screaming. crying. stop, please stop. get off me. screaming. kicking him from behind. like this. he is struggling with all his might to get his pants off and undo his belt buckle. >> she kept saying, i fought him. i felt him hard. >> the belt buckle is getting caught. clinking, making racket.
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he adjusted his grip. went then for my pants. i wiggled out. it was like, a light switch just clicked. and it was look she snapped i-- was like he snapped into reality. and caught himself that he was creating this huge scene. he was just seething and finger in my face and just called me a baby and kicked me out and he said you are done. that's it. and i literally went back to denver with the clothes on my back. >> reporter: it was over. bowman tried to pick up the pieces of her life. and restarted her career with roles in several films. >> oh, i am checking it out. >> reporter: she tried to put bill cosby out of her mind for the next 20 years. >> i thought i was the only one. >> reporter: that is until 2005 when another woman took on bill cosby in court.
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and bowman decided to join the fight. >> i said i will be damned if i will sit in silence anymore. i will do whatever it takes to let people know that that woman is telling the truth. stay withu forever. ♪ especially if you don't leave. ♪ you got it booking right. booking.com booking.yeah ugh! heartburn! no one burns on my watch! try alka-seltzer heartburn reliefchews. they work fast and don't taste chalky. mmm...amazing. i have heartburn. alka-seltzer heartburn reliefchews. enjoy the relief.
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>> reporter: barbara bowman determined to succeed in a tough business tried to put cosby out of her mind. she felt she had to. >> i was scared to death and in my world i didn't think i had anybody else who was listening. >> reporter: 20 years would pass from the time bowman says she was raped until 2 2005 when she read about another woman accusing bill cosby of sexual assault. >> i really believed that is the only other one. my god, another woman i became enraged. i said i will be damned if i will sit in silence anymore. i will do whatever it takes to let people know that that woman is telling the truth bah ecause happened to me. >> reporter: that woman was andrea constand, director of
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operations for women's basketball program at temple university in philadelphia. there she met bill cosby. a temple graduate and very big man on campus. >> we all know he was a very active alum. and that included the women abasketball team. >> reporter: a reporter on constand and cosby. >> he would have her over for dinner. she thought he was some one that wanted to mentor her. >> reporter: in january, 2005, constand told authorities cosby sexually assaulted her at his home in philadelphia the year before. bruce caster was the county prosecutor at the time. >> the impressions the detectives gave me about andrea that she was clearly telling the truth but that her recollection was fuzzy. >> reporter: a fuzzy memory he
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says is consistent with victims of date rape drugs. >> reporter: we actually were building the theory she had been drugged. >> reporter: cosby's lawyer called the accusations utterly preposterous and truly bizarre. but cosby agreed to talk to detectives. >> cosby i believe felt he was going to be arrested and was frightened. >> reporter: in the end the prosecutor decided there was not enough evidence to bring charges. >> what i think and what i can prove are two different things. >> reporter: undeterred, constand filed a civil suit against cosby laying out her accusations for everyone to see. >> she sued because she was the first woman to come forward and say this, come forward and say it with her name. >> reporter: she claimed cosby invited her to his home offering career advice. >> she was talking to him.
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she was thinking about a career change very nervous wanted his advice on it. she was talking how nervous she is. and he offers her three pills. saying this will help calm you down. >> reporter: constand says he told her it was an herbal combination. he said it was one, one and a half tablets of benadryl. >> reporter: she trusted him? >> sheep tru trusted him. he's bill cosby. >> reporter: constand claimed after taking the pills she was only barely conscious. >> she felt dizzy. she felt weak. there wasn't much she could do. >> reporter: unable to walk on her own, constand says kz be led her to a sofa. >> takes her to the sofa. he touched her breast. touches her vagina. eventually digitally penetrates her. >> reporter: answering the
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accusations, cosby denied drugging or sexually assaulting her. >> he is telling the media this all made up. this family is in it for money. that they're trying to, you know, extort money from him. >> reporter: as part of her civil suit, andrea constand was lining up one witness after another. >> when i finally got in touch with her attorney and said my name is barbara bowman, and it happened to me too. and she told me you're not the only one. >> reporter: far from it. in all, 12 women listed in court documents as jane does had similar accusations. long past the statute of limitations but nonetheless willing to testify about an alleged pattern of wrongdoing. most of the women wanted to stay anonymous. but a few went public. >> you produced two capsules. >> reporter: california attorney tamara green on the today show. >> groping me, kissing me, touching me, handling me.
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>> reporter: cosby's lawyer says the incident she describes did not happen. >> i did not ever deserve that. >> reporter: former model beth ferrier talked to the philadelphia daily news. >> he hurt me in the most wicked horrible way. >> reporter: spokesman for cosby declooined to comment. >> barbara bowman in philadelphia magazine. >> what happened was horrible, painful, and frightening. >> reporter: cosby's lawyer called bowman's claims abslultly untrue. but bowman, green, ferrier and the others would not back down. >> i want people to know that we are real people out here. and it is happening. i am going to let people know. >> reporter: let people know by testifying in andrea constand's civil case. but when we come back, constand vs. cosby takes an abrupt turn.
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by late 2006, four women had publicly accused bill cosby of drugging and sexually assaulting them. andrea constand and his lawsuit against cosby. tamara green, beth ferrier and barbara bowman. allegations like these would bring down most public figures but not bill kz be. -- cosby. >> i wrote my 6,500 piece for "philadelphia magazine" thinking with all these women claiming they have stories similar to andrea constand's, this thing is going to explode. >> reporter: but it did not at least not in 2006 because cosby and andrea constand reached out-of-court settlement, the terms were never made public. when the lawsuit ended so did the media interest. >> get a little bit of media attention and it will go away. the mainstream wouldn't touch it.
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nobody would touch it. >> reporter: cosby maintained his image as america's favorite dad. >> if you really wanted to seek it out you could find it or just go about your day watching cosby show re-runs and have no idea this ever happened. >> reporter: though cosby remained silent aboutle allegations he had plenty to say on other matters. >> your 13-year-old son got no business seeing himself as a man who can drop a seed and walk away and somehow call himself a man. >> reporter: he toured the country urging african-americans to take personal responsibility. >> you are dealing drugs to each other. you are impregnating our 13, 12, 11-year-old children to each other. >> reporter: he billed these controversial lectures as "call outs." >> i'm calling you out. and i'm holding you accountable. >> it was a pretty big irony
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that he is lecturing african-american communities about their behavior and what they need to do. and at the same time if these allegations are true certainly hiding behind his own behavior. >> reporter: for the next eight years, cosby was mostly out of the entertainment spotlight. but the accolades continued. >> bill cosby would go off into the sunset unless there was some drama, unless there was something to happen to trigger a change. >> reporter: that trigger would be an up and coming comedian named hannibal burress. >> last october, burress called out cosby in a stand up routine. >> i can talk down to you because i have a successful sitcom. yeah, but you rape women, bill
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cosby. so that turn the crazy done a couple notches. >> he accused bill cosby directly of being a rapist. and that changed everything. >> reporter: it changed everything because on that evening, a reporter from "philadelphia magazine" was in the audience. recording this video with his phone. >> you heard about the hannibal burress thing. >> reporter: the video goes viral. >> hannibal burress called bill cosby a rapist. >> team cosby is inviting fans to create memes, captions using classic photos from his website. >> what a huge miscalculation did think they were going to combat what he said with an initiative of people saying nice things with the old photos of bill koz beach. >> reporter: whether or not it was a tactical move, meme me
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back fires. barbara bowman sees the irony. >> it took a man to crack a joke on stage in a comedy routine calling bill cosby a rapist for people to go, "wow, maybe there is something to this." >> reporter: a month after the burress video, bowman writes a piece for "the washington post" online. bill cosby raped why did it take 30 years for people to believe my story? >> so joining me now, barbara bowman. she alleges she was raped by bill cosby. >> reporter: bowman also tells her story on cnn. >> i have been speak out publicly and trying to have the story believed and heard since 2004. >> reporter: now the media are finally picking up the story. >> rape allegations. >> reporter: over at the smithsonian where bill and his wife camille are displaying their african-american art
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collection. npr's scott simon asks about the rape allegations. >> there have been serious allegations raised about you in recent days, you are shaking your head no? i'm in the news business, i have to ask the question. do you have any response to those charges? shaking your head no. the associated press also tries to get a response. >> i have to ask about your name coming of in the news recently regarding this comedian. >> no, no, we don't answer that. >> reporter: cosby berates the reporter for bringing up the subject. >> and i would appreciate it if it was scuttled. i think if you want to kid yourself to be serious that it will not appear anywhere. >> it didn't play well. it didn't look good for bill cosby. >> reporter: under mounting pressure, cosby's camp respond to the renewed allegations. fact that they're being repeated
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does not make them true. mr. cosby does not intend to dignify these allegations with any comment. but one thing is clear, reporters who for years failed to ask cosby the hard questions are now paying attention. and this time the story is not going away. >> we believe the women! >> reporter: when we come back? >> he drug and rained me. >> reporter: more than two dozen women come forward. and to revelations in cosby's own words about drugs and sex. i take these out... ...to put in dr. scholl's active series insoles. they help reduce wear and tear on my legs, becuase they have triple zone protection. ... and reduce shock by 40%. so i feel like i'm ready to take on anything.
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i'm able to do this because i have really good survival skills. >> for more than a decade, barbara beauman has been fighting. telling a story few people wanted to hear. in the fall, 2014, she pushes, again, this time with a first person account in the washington post and a round of 26
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interviews. >> victims don't come out. they don't talk. they're ashamed. they're embarrassed. >> every bit of media i did was directed at victims. i practically pleaded for them to come forward. >> rape allegations by multiple women. >> and this time, they do. >> when i came to, i was in bed with him naked. >> the next week, an avalanche of accusations in the media, as women aledged that cosby sexual assaulted them during the '60s, '70s, '80s and '90s. >> and then he started to push himself on top of me, like, against the seat. >> he was mind me having sex with me. >> the stories just keep coming. >> several claim they were drugged. >> i was feeling more and more groggy. >> including former playboy play mate, victoria valuen tee know. >> and then he asked me for oral sex.
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he turned moe over. and, when he was done, he got up and started to walk out. >> it went blank. >> and a former talent agency secretary. >> he had his hand on the back of my head and he was trying to push it towards his erect penis. i lifted my head away and pulled myself away immediately. >> cosby's lawyer says the allegations are absurd. these events are becoming completely ridiculous. and no reports to law enforcement if they thought they had been assaulted over a stand of so many years. as for cosby's comeback, the damage is done. netflix shelves his comedy special, nbc abandons his plans
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for an upcoming rerun. >> people believe these women now and nobody wants to be associated with a man who's being accused of being a serial rapist. >> cosby breaks his silence to a local paper in florida. i know people are tired of me not saying anything. but a guy doesn't have to answer to innuendos. people should fact check. people shouldn't have to through that and answer to innuendos. >> i want people to know that i had an encounter with bill cosby. he built my trust by pretending to be a friend. he drugged and raped me. >> i didn't move or say anything. i felt something warm on my legs. >> in the weeks that follow, the number of accusers grows to more than two dozen. >> i knew he had drugged mel. >> cosby was on top of me, kissing me forcefully. >> i woke up in a bed naked,
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bruised. he was laying next to me. >> bill cosby declined our request for an interview. but, last december, cosby's wife of more than 50 years, camille cosby, released this statement. >> the man i met and fell in love with and whom i continue to love is the man you all knew through his work. he is a kind man, a generous man, a funny man and a wochbderful husband, father and friend. he is the man you thought you knew. a different man has been portrayed in the media over the last two months. it is the por trade of a man i do not know. >> a portrait, plsz cosby says, painted by irresponsible media. none of us will ever want to be in the position of attacking a vict victim. but the question should be asked, who is the victim? >> bill cosby under oath. >> now, seven months later, the
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question is once again in the headlines, triggered by new information. >> is this really the slam dunk that vindicated cosby's accusers. >> sealed court documents released after the associated press pushed for them in court contained a startling admission. in a deposition, cosby says that in the 1970s, he had prescriptions for the hypnotic sedative quaalude. the lawyer asks when you got the quaaludes, was it in your mind that you were going to use these quaaludes for young women that you wanted to have sex with. cosby responds yes.
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>> i was absolutely elated. i couldn't stop screaming. i was just going oh, my god, my god. obviously, we already knew it's high time the world finally starts to look and see directly at mr. cosby and that he is the one that's at fall e fault. not us. >> it is a game changer, and it's about time. >> cosby's legacy already clouted hangs in the balance. >> you can't tie the parts of the cosby show. it's also the man that created that character and is accused of doing and also remember that. >> because the statute of limitations has expired by almost all the alleged incidents, it's unlikely will face criminal charges. but, for barbara bowman, the
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long battle has been worth it. >> i have to imagine that there's a sinking feeling somewhere in his gut. that it's over. >> in the days we spent with her last fall, she spent painful, s intimate details about the last 30 years. and she was stoic. that is until the end of our last interview. >> people are listening. my story is told. i'm not lying and now people know it. and i'm so sad for all of us. but it validated every one of us to be able to compare our stories and see the similarities and knowing in our heart, finally, did it happen? did it really happen? yes, it really happened. and it's over. it's over.
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you have heard from the women who accused bill cosby. but there could be even more legal trouble ahead for him. this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. our big story tonight is donald trump. >> this man or this animal that shot the wonderful, that beautiful woman in san francisco, this guy was pushed out by mexico. we bring them back and they push him out. >> he is a mogul who wants to be your next president. but could the gop learn a lesson or two from donald trurp. and is he putting them between a rock and a hard place? i want you to listen to an interview with anderson coor

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