n is d. italy holds the record for the most unesco world heritage sites with 51 in all. china is next with 48. and spain, france and germany round out the top five. the united states ranks 10th with 23 sites. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. donald trump dominating headlines while suing univision. how is spanish language media covering trump's anti-immigration message? plus the most anticipated book not only of the year but of the decade. did 89-year-old author harper lee even want it to be published? new information this morning from a journalist who met with lee a few days ago. what is going on at reddit, the ceo stepping down can women get a fair shake in silicon valley? it's time for "reliable sources." all those stories and more coming up. let's begin with what

increasingly looks like the story of the summer. the man behind me donald trump. the presidential campaign he's running, if it were a reality show it would be scoring record-high ratings. polls showing more and more support for the billionaire. news rooms are sending more and more reporters to trump campaign events like this rally in phoenix last night. some commentators well you can hear the surprise in their voices. they don't know what to think. two examples from msnbc and fox this morning. >> i used to say he'll stop whatever he has to file that form. he'll shut this thing down. i'm getting the sense this thing has gotten more traction than he was expecting. i'm wondering. this thing is bigger than anybody thought it would be. >> the question i think really is the buzz is actually a good thing this early on. still a long way to iowa or new hampshire. or is the sound of the buzz a chain saw? >> i don't think fox knows how to cover this campaign. two things are happening.

there is a growing sentiment that the press should not be covering trump the way it is should not be involved in what is basically an epic trolling of the presidential primary process. there is a growing sense that trump is reshaping the whole race challenging the republican establishment, exciting the base and writing a chapter of the 2016 story that almost nobody expected. now, everybody has an opinion about trump. a few people really know him like my next guest, michael cohen. executive vice president and special counsel of the trump organization. as one of trump's top advisers are you seeing the stream of campaign coverage a rejoicing or is this hurting his business somehow? >> donald trump is a mega-billionaire. when he releases his financials you're going to see just how wealthy he actually is. he is not worried about these ancillary businesses or these spineless individuals that want to run away from him. what he is interested in is simply making america great

again. that is his message. >> we've heard the message. you say spineless. are you talking about nbc, univision, macy's? >> i'm talking about them and all the others. >> you hear that. these are major corporations that have distanced themselves from trump. it must be hurting the bottom line at this point. >> i don't think mr. trump is worried about the bottom line. what he's worried about, again, is his message, which is to make america great again. he is worried about the veterans. he's worried about national security. he is worried about social security medicare/medicaid. he's worried about many different things. one thing he is not worried about is the small dollars that are coming in as a result of these relationships. >> let me play a sound bite from you from earlier this morning on "state of the union" on cnn. >> i think he's uninformed about the situation regarding the illegal immigrant population. i think he has high-jacked the debate. i think he is a wrecking ball

for the future of the republican party with the hispanic community and we need to push back. >> a wrecking ball? michael, any reaction to that? >> i'm not sure what lindsey graham is saying. i don't think anybody cares what he's saying, to be honest with you. donald trump has hit a chord. even from yesterday in arizona, what was supposed to be a thousand-person event turned out to be a 20,000. the silent majority has been awoken. mr. trump will talk about, there is a real movement out there, and the one thing donald trump is is he is authentic. he is not going to have individuals tell him what to say. he is not going to poll individuals before releasing what he believes is necessary in order to make this country great again. that is -- >> i think we can agree, first of all, every candidate wants america to be great again. a lot of candidates already think america is great. that slogan doesn't say much. it's like cotton candy, isn't it? make america great again.

>> i don't think so brian. i think donald trump is authentic to that message. >> you mentioned 20,000 people being there -- >> the other -- >> you mentioned 20,000 people being there. there were not 20,000 people in phoenix. i know donald trump said that on twitter. the venue was supposed to hold 4,000 people. "the new york times" says less than 10,000. how can we believe this man could be commander in chief if he can't even get his facts straight? >> whether it's 5,000, 10,000 or 20,000, it's a complete sellout. >> that actually matters, whether it's 5,000 or 20,000. it matters a lot. >> why does it matter? >> what you see is a movement. you see a movement of people that are angry. they're angry with the all-talk-no-auction policy of our career politicians. donald trump is not beholding to anyone. he is not asking anyone like lobbyists or the big financial institutions for money. he is doing this from his own pocket and he's doing it for a purpose. >> i think we can all agree

there is a lot of anger out there and that he's tapping into some of the anger. i wonder for you, who works with him every day and gives him advice how do you plan a strategy or a campaign for a guy like donald trump? seems like he doesn't have prepared remarks or a scripted speech. he just says whatever is on his mind. is it hard to work with a guy like that? how can you possibly plan a campaign? >> that's what makes donald trump authentic. that's why he resonates with the people. he doesn't have pre-scripted speeches that people spend two, three weeks on polling in order to find out, well if you say this it's going to resonate well in your poll numbers. here is the bottom line. donald trump is right now at the top of the republican candidate. he is polling number one. some say he is by himself. others say that he's with jeb bush. what he's saying is resonating with the people. the people are tired. we're all tired of the all talk no action policy of our career politicians. i think donald trump's honest

open authentic message is what the american people are looking for. >> you mentioned the polls where he is number one. i would add one caveat. those have been online polls. cnn goes with telephone polls. he's polling next to jeb bush in the telephone polls. we'll see more polls in the coming days that seem to show momentum from donald trump. my last question is whether you agree with his critique with the press, he was calling the press terrible last night. he loves to mock reporters. yet aren't reporters giving him attention and helping him rise higher in the polls? >> of course they're giving him attention because he creates ratings. that's what donald trump does. what donald trump is angry about is there was a statement that was made regarding mexico and every liberal media outlet jumped on it and they switched it from mexico meaning the government to the mexican people. and that was absolutely unfair. it was dishonest.

and it's created a swell of media attention. and in all fairness is back-fired on them because, again, he's polling number one. it certainly appears to be creating this ground movement by people who are angry with the way our politicians are dealing with our open borders. >> michael, i appreciate you being here. thanks for taking the time this morning. >> very nice to speak to you. >> he creates ratings. i like that line from michael. continuing on the theme of people who know trump, i want to bring in kate bohner the coauthor of the book "trump." you spent two years with him a while ago. you were looking at these pictures saying he doesn't seem to have aged one bit. >> he looks exactly the same. that was 1996 and 1997. the book came out in october of '97. >> tell me your reactions to michael. >> also your commentary as well.

it sounds eerily familiar. i came in after what he calls the depression of 2000, 2003 in real estate. i remember the story where he told me that he and marla were walking down fifth avenue and saw a homeless person panhandling. donald threw a five into the cup and said he is richer than me. i'll never forget the story because it set the framework for the book. and the ten lessons. he was very humble at that time. >> humble! >> i know. >> nobody is going to believe me. >> he was certainly -- one thing michael says is that he is authentic. i think we can all agree to that. >> even if he changes his story. pro choice now he's pro life? all those changes? >> i think he is a very passionate person. that's what my experience was with him. he has an opinion on everything.

sometimes it's exhausting. it's kind of daunting to try to get it all down as co-author. there is a way in which i'm not surprised that he changes his mind because he is so passionate an overingeverything that he talks about. i thought it was also interesting about, does he listen to his advisers? my experience in the '90s was trump -- he employs an army of lawyers, right. but there are four or five people that he listened to and that were in his inner circle that he -- i was in the inner circle as his co-author but i wasn't an adviser by any means. >> is that a problem for him, that he isn't taking the advice other candidates would be taking saying things that advisers wouldn't want him to be saying? >> you have to have a strom stomach with work with trump. he is challenging. he is a man of his own mind. one of the things, brian is that we all think outrageous things. i do.

>> i'll admit we do it too. sure. >> one of these crazy parades, you have to get across town. but we don't actual lily say them. we surround ourselves with colleagues friends, relationships. you probably have a concierge who you run everything by. a few of them. >> sure. >> mr. trump listens to advice. he listens to what people have to say. but in the end he does whatever -- in my experience he does whatever he wants to do says whatever he wants to. he used the term wrecking ball which i thought was tough, in the interview. let's say he likes to make a splash. >> do you have advice for the press out there covering donald trump every day? >> my advice is cover him every day. don't take a breather. this is from having written his book. i had to be on it every single day to get the fluctuations in terms of his messaging. that is my advice. don't give up and don't let up. >> thanks for being here kate.

>> thanks so much. let's turn to one of the reporters covering trump. there is one angle being overlooked. the miss usa pageant. it was the first casualty of his campaign. the pageant crowns a new winner tonight, but you won't see it on nbc or univision because both networks dumped the broadcast after trump's comments about immigrants last month. it will air on reelz. it's hard to find on the dial. athena jones is in baton rouge, louisiana, where we thought trump would be. but there has been a last-minute change in schedule? >> that's right. trump tweeted last night he won't be coming. i believe we have it. he said i will not be able to attend the miss usa pageant tomorrow night. i am campaigning in phoenix. wishing all well. we've reached out to the truch campaign about what events he has scheduled in phoenix or elsewhere in arizona or the west and haven't heard back about

that. as recently as the end of last month, june 30th. he said while on the campaign trail and in a statement he released that he would be here to support the contestants. so this is a big change. brian. >> perhaps he is seeing this issue of immigration, seeing the crowds he's able to have near the border and wanting to continue to play into that. perhaps it's a matter of this pageant being a side show from his main campaign story. >> perhaps it is. as you mentioned, now that nbc and univision dropped the pageant. reelz picked it up. that's a small cable channel. we asked the organizers how it came about and whether they're concerned about the smaller audience. they said they were talking to reelz within two days after the pageant was dropped by the other networks. they told me it might have been the quickest tv licensing agreement reached in history. this is a family-owned company. they were able to make the decision fast. the ceo said this is not political. he sees this pageant as pure

entertainment and he also says he doesn't like what trump had to say. he agrees with what macy's and univision and nbc has done. he called trump's comments about immigrants quote, ridiculous. there will be no trump on the red carpet or on the stage today, brian. >> i have a feeling reporters will be asking about him, though. athena thanks for being here. up next talking more about univision. it was the first network to drop miss u.s.sa. univision has a clear point of view about immigration. one of the most famous spanish language anchors in the whole world will join me in just a minute. ut dates. which is why most of this legal copy is just instructions on how to win a free trip! instructions actually written in this legal copy. use your dvr to read them. this is the pre-recorded voice of captain obvious. i am not a ventriloquist. ugh! heartburn! no one burns on my watch!

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welcome back to "reliable sources." you know thanks to donald trump, immigration is front and center on english language news casts like this one. it's different on spanish language news casts. on univision it's always front and center. it is growing every year. it proudly calls itself the voice of hispanics in the u.s. democrat candidate martin o'malley sought it out to pitch his immigration proposals. some republican candidates avoid it because they believe it's biased against gop and conservative proposals on immigration. where does the network find itself in this mix?

the perfect person to ask is one of the most prominent anchors at univision. nightly anchor at univision, maria elena salinas. thank you for joining me. >> it's my pleasure. >> talking about spanish language and immigration. we talk about donald trump. he is suing univision. how does that affect their coverage of trump. >> we're covering trump the way trump is being covered by everyone. it's of special interest to our audience because of some of the derogatory comments he made the day he launched his campaign were directed at part of our audience if not all of our audience. one thing i think people need to understand is that you can't have it both ways. you can't say i support immigrants as long as they're legal but i don't support illegal aliens. by the way, we don't use the word illegal because a human being is not illegal. a human being is undocumented.

we come from the same region. we have the same blood. we have the same ancestors and some had a better opportunity to cross the border than others. so for hispanic voters many of which have parents, grandparents that maybe arrived illegally. maybe they themselves were here illegally at one point or they have friends or family members that are now here in this country without documents, this is a personal attack. so you cannot separate them. you can't have it both ways. >> i know that trump has done interviews with univision and other spanish language media. if you could ask him anything, what would you be asking him right about now? >> you know to be honest with you, i don't know that i want to interview donald trump because it would be a very predictable interview. the interviews that i have seen with him, some of the answers just don't make any sense. so what can you ask him? even if you tell him the truth and give him facts, i don't expect that he is going to

expect those facts. he has his own facts. the fact checkers must be having a field day, especially this past week. >> i'm interested in how univision covers the topic of immigration. it's different than how english language networks do. let me put a quote on the screen from a martin o'malley adviser. they'll talk about immigration. number one, do you think that's true? number two what do you think that signifies about the hispanic audience? >> yes, it's true. if we have an opportunity to speak to any presidential candidate, immigration will definitely be one of the topics. not the only topic. hopefully they'll give us more han than five minutes to talk about other things. the even though the spanish electorate does care about jobs and economy, they care about education, they care about health care they care very much also about immigration. not because they have an immigration problem. because voters are u.s. citizens

and don't have an immigration problem. but because it affects the image of our community. it hurts our soul. so that will definiely affect their vote. in a way, i think we're adding to democracy so we can have a very healthy debate with two different sides, with two different realities. the reality of the immigrants you don't see in english language media, you see on univision. i wish more people could have a translation device in their television to see our coverage. >> that's a very good point. i wonder if at some point the coverage shifts into advocacy. there a line univision you think has ever crossed into advocacy? >> you can call it that. advocacy journalism can be considered whenever you give more importance that one topic than another. but we're certainly not telling people who to vote for. we have campaigns constantly asking voters or immigrants first to become citizens then to register to vote and then to

go out and vote. not because we want them to vote for one candidate or another, but because we think it's important for hispanics to understand not only what their rights are in this country but also what their responsibilities are. >> do you think this is one of those cases where you have critics working the refs accusing univision of biases and accusing univision of being anti-trump or anti-gop in order to pressure you all to change your coverage? >> no. we are very aware of the criticism. because we know it exists we're extra careful. we're very cautious of the words we use, the graphics that we use, the scripts that are written, to make sure that we are fair and balanced. and we are fair and balanced. that's the way we've done our coverage at all times. but when it comes to political coverage there is always more scrutiny on us than anyone else. as you know things can be interpreted in so many different ways. and because of the language

barrier, sometimes the wrong message comes out or the wrong message is received. >> what do you say to people who are curious about the connections between one of the owners of univision to hillary clinton. he is a prominent fund-raiser and supporter of hillary clinton. he has been public about that. people wonder if that affects any of the news content on univision. what's your answer on that? >> it has not affected our news coverage at all. we have always known one of our owners is supportive of hillary clinton, one of our previous owners was supportive of republicans. he donated millions of dollars to republicans. that never affect our coverage either. no there has never been any kind of influence in any way, shape or form. i don't remember and i have been an anchor here for more years than i'd like to mention, let's say a few decades. we've never, in this entire time had anyone in management ever come and tell us you need to give more emphasis to this candidate or you need to push this campaign or give more time

to a specific party. that just has never happened. >> it's precisely because of the language barrier that i think people are curious about univision and spanish language media. i appreciate you talking to us about it. thank you. >> it's my pleasure, brian. by the way, the business context here is that univision is a privately held company about to sell its own stock for the first time. it will be worth so many billions of dollars, and it's all crucial about being the voice of hispanics. it has to be perceived as the voice of hispanics to reach all the viewers and keep them watching univision. coming up on "reliable sources," atticus finch, a racist. "to kill a mockingbird's" follow-up is coming up. did harper lee want her new book published? in a moment we're hear from a film maker who asked lee.

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decade comes out on tuesday. and it's by an 89-year-old author. this is what i love about publishing. this morning we have an exclusive for you on the famous american literary recluse, harper lee and the film maker who spent time with her this morning. she published the classic, "to kill a mockingbird," 55 years ago. her only other book "go set a watchman," is about to hit book stores. mock "to kill a mockingbird" sold more than 40 million copies. many question whether the writer now 89 and nearly blind and deaf actually wanted to publish the new book. it was a long-lost rough draft. the film harper lee, from mockingbird to watchman documents her disappearance from the world. this is the last interview she

gave in 1964. >> i never expected that the book would sell in the first place. i was hoping for a quick and merciful death at the hands of the reviewers. but i was hoping that maybe somebody might like it well enough to give me some encouragement about it. >> this week the film's director mary murphy actually last week travelled to lee's home town of monroeville, alabama, for a rare meeting with the author to ask her about her intentions. she joins me on the set in new york. you're putting the finishing touches on your film. >> it's a coda to my film. >> tell us what happened. >> i was eninvited by her attorney with her permission to record an event in monroeville, alabama, on june 30th. this was the day that harper lee's publishers both british and american came to her hometown to hand her a spanking new copy of her new book. most authors don't have their

publishers show up at their door. it gives you an idea of what a rare publishing event this is. >> you were able to talk to her briefly. >> yeah. >> did you have the sense she wanted this publish? there have been many stories speculating about that. >> she has issued statements and her lawyers have issued statements. her close friends have been interviewed. everyone says she is delighted and happy to have it published. i asked her if she thought it was ever going to be published. she said don't be silly, of course i did. so that was her answer. >> hmm. did you believe her? did you sense that she was -- >> you'll have to see. i've got the video, and i've got the audio, and you can look at it. >> it's obviously a sensitive subject, you know because we haven't heard from her in decades. >> yes. yes. and absent her speaking directly and at length questions come up. they don't get answered because harper lee doesn't answer question. >> the publisher, harpercollins, no relation to harper lee,

putting this book out this week. the "wall street journal" had an excerpt. "the new york times" had a review. apparently finch is a much different character than in "mockingbird." what's your opinion? >> in the book it says ate kiss thinks. alabama was a state that would have rather closed the public schools than integrate them. this is the climate in which the book appears. this is what's going on in the novel. a truly liberated white southern man wasn't something you would find in these small towns or across the state. so atticus in the book reflects the time and reflects the culture of the time. >> something suggested on twitter, maybe this is a more honest accurate real portrait. >> it's in keeping with the way

people were in alabama at that time. there are other parts of the book that in which you can see the old atticus or of "to kill a mockingbird" on display. it's the wonderful, father-dear relationship. they do argue, but it is a real family. >> some people are saying they're not going to read the new book because they don't want their perceptions to be tainted at all. >> well, i think reedersaders will do as they wish. they're two different novels. some will be able to separate them. others will find them too closely linked. >> talk about this moment for the publishing business. this is the most anticipated book of the decade. what does it mean for the print/publishing world to have this book be such a big deal. there are even midnight release parties like there were for harry potter. >> it is highly anticipated. it is like harry potter. "to kill a mockingbird" is such

a beloved classic, the readers are greedy readers who want more. nobody thought they would get more and they are. that's a big deal. >> the fact that it's a surprise even adds to the level of excitement. >> i think it was a surprise to the author herself that the manuscript was still in existence. >> mary thanks for being here. the film airs on pbs on monday and is also available on itunes. coming up is the political press going easy on bernie sanders to give the democratic primaries a better narrative. i'll talk to the editor of the primary nation after this. . and clearer skin. this is my body of proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis from the inside out ...with humira. humira works by targeting and helping to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. it's proven to help relieve pain stop further joint damage and clear skin in many adults. doctors have been prescribing

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. welcome back. if donald trump is the republican story of the summer then the democratic story is probably bernie sanders. he has gone from in some ways a marginal candidate to serious contender in record time doing better in polls and fund-raising than most talking heads ever imagined he would. but has his insurgent campaign

dodged the scrutiny that candidates typically get? does he have a media cheerleading section. an example. sanders on the cover of the latest issue of the liberal magazine "the nation." reviewed by john nichols. the same one who introduced him at a rally earlier this month. [ cheers and applause ] >> it starts with progressives. you demand a candidate who spoke your language. ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, please welcome senator bernie sanders! >> when i saw this i couldn't help but think about fox's john handy, barred from speaking at a tea party rally a few years ago. fox did not want him doing that. the editor and publisher of the nation katrina vanden heuvel joins me.

i don't want to present a false narrative. john is foremost a television host. what's your reaction to the idea that someone interviewing bernie sanders shouldn't be up on the stage introducing him? >> "the nation" has been up front about our values and principles. we are independent. we've called it like it is. we've criticized democratic candidates and presidents. john nichols has introduced bernie sanders for over 25 years. >> does that make it right? >> let me just say. john nichols was talking in that context about wisconsin's tradition tradition. in the cover story, john nichols pushing bernie sanders on issues of policing on emigration on issues he is not leading with because he is talking primarily about economic inequality in this country, how billionaires are controlling our politics. one thing i would say, brian, is when you talk about going soft it's important to look at the

corporate media and how it has gone soft on what matters to millions of americans. i like to say, too often the mainstream corporate media gives us a down-sized politics of public media. >> down-sized? >> bernie sanders speaks for millions of americans in this country. the issues he speaks to are tapping into anxieties, passions about where this country is heading, issues that are in essence mainstream but for too long the corporate media has written them off as marginal. >> he has been in office since 1990 and on "meet the press" last year. john mccain sleeps at "meet the press." >> why do you think that's why? >> -- policing of the parameters of what is acceptable politics. the gate keepers too often will say, debt-free higher education? nah. defense cuts? cuts to the defense budget? tax hikes for the very wealthy.

"the new york times" had a story last month about why those issues might make bernie sanders unelectable? why? the majority of americans are in sync with him on this issue. on monday "the nation" has a piece about bernie sanders' stand on gun control. hillary clinton is teeing that up. there are tough questions. i would submit the corporate media has been unfair to the people of this country for too long by not giving them the full range of views that this country deserves to hear. that's what i mean by a down-sized politics of excluded all terns alternatives. >> now that bernie sanders is a presidential candidate he's being taken more seriously than he was for decades. >> millions of people are meeting bernie sanders for the first time. the nation has been covering him for close on to 30 years. but you read about a woman who has gone to a bernie sanders' rally and she says wow. i never knew people were talking about these issues. it's almost like a lifeline for

people who felt they were alone. >> showing these crowds. the crawedowd he had ten days ago. very big crowd. a lot of attention in the press. >> he is an insurgent candidate, but he is speaking about solutions. he is speaking about ideas that this country is hungry for. and the gatekeepers, brian, i have to say, you know, the idea that -- it's only two months out, right. the media will play a big role in his name recognition. will they give him a space? will they keep saying he is unelectable or will they give him and his issues space? the issues bernie sanders wants to talk about desperately. running a serious campaign talking about serious solutions, can that be heard in our system? because to me the measure of democracy is whether our elections become vibrant

debates. >> does the media try to attach themselves to sandsers? >> john nichols did a terrific piece about martin o'malley's proposal to restructure puerto rico's death. our columnist had a terrific column about why she is excited in supporting hillary clinton. >> interested in running the gamut. >> we're interested in hearing what hillary clinton has to say more with her economic speech. i think bernie sanders speaks to the prospects for progressive politics in this country. it is an opening. when you have a pope traveling to latin america talking about unfettered claptapitalism, perhaps we're now looking beyond labels. he is a new dealer. he is modernizing the new deal. people i think are hungry brian, not for opposition ads, and you know at the end of the day, the air waves -- this may be shocking although bernie sanders talks about it as do

others the air waves belong to the american people. we don't need the saturation of these warped attack ethics. we need issues. we need discussion and debate. >> talking about the broadcast networks. >> yes. >> local networks where there is so much money funneled in for campaigns. >> why are campaigns so brutally expensive. media also measure candidates by their fund-raising. that becomes a metric which i think is not a healthy thing. >> it's actually helping him right now. >> rand paul 24 hours after launching his campaign he raised $1.5 million from small donors. i want to hear more. "the nation" will be covering the full gamut. that's been our role. we want to lift up ideas so that we've been covering for decades. now they're out there because they're mainstream. what was once considered is now mainstream. i don't think a lot of people with all due respect in the

mainstream corporate media, have fully woken up to it. there are some who are saying, hey, this may be a moment. what's going on here and trying to check the bramarometer of this country. >> a lot to write about. thanks for being here. good to see you. >> thank you. up next, story breaking over the weekend, a community uprising at reddit the social media site that calls itself the front page of the internet. ceo allen powell has left. is it a case of sexism in silicon valley or is there more to the story? right back with that. ts. there has got to be a way to redeem our hotel points. i just want to take a vacation. this seems crazy. oh really? tell us something we don't know, captain obvious. ok. with hotels.com, when you collect 10 nights you get one free. oh. so you only need to know how to count to 10 to earn a free night at places like that nudist resort. yeah i don't know how that got there. because you stayed there took a selfie and hung it prominently on the wall. hm? hotels.com. they won't judge your life choices.

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. welcome back. a major shake-up in silicon valley this weekend. ellen pao forced to resign after a revolt by reddit users. reddit is one of the rapid sites on the internet. some have called it the man cave of the internet. that's because out of the 160 million monthly users, close to 120 million are male, many young men. many are wondering if this is sexism at play in silicon valley or was she the wrong person for the job? here is sarah lacy the founder of pando daily. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> what really happened in this case? when i've looked at the message boards all of the

conversations, some of the chatter about the ceo was disgusting misogny was directed at her. is that what ended her role as ceo? i think her role was adopt the from the moment she came in starting with calling her interim ceo. reddit is a weird beast. >> you can say that again. >> it's indicative of silicon valley at large. it was a company that was acquired by condo nast. it was seen as the failure compared to dig. ten years ago. and it was kind of left for dead and continued to grow. it grew because of unpaid moderators who essentially run the site. ellen pau had no control over whether or not the site was shut down. when this whole revolt started a few weeks, moderators were shutting down threads. it not only wasn't an issue where she didn't understand the community and a lot of the community, frankly, wasn't ever going to like her because she was an asian woman but she

didn't understand the community or how to put something up on the site that wouldn't get voted down. these weren't even people that worked for her she could fire. >> she was going to be rejected by the community? what kind of community? >> parts of the community. i mean look it's possible if she had been running this site and she had the thickest skin in the world and was super devoted to free speech then she could have handled it. this is someone who brought the most high profile gender discrimination suit we've seen in decades and it was mostly about the unfairness of microindignities that women suffer. not someone who thought it was acceptable to be a woman in the world and see that hate lobbed at her. it was not a good fit. the arrogance of the board to think, this is a great site that the community has built, 170 million people less than 80 people working there, let's give it a half a billion dollar evaluation and turn it into an ad platform it was never going

to work. anyone like ellen paw going into that role was going to fail. >> i wonder whether the invective, the hate fullness and misogyny whether it's getting worse and whether it's possible to make it better. what's the solution here? >> you know part of this is just human nature. i don't think it the reddit story is about silicon valley. it's a story about the internet. people loving hate at her aren't gatekeepers in silicon valley they weren't her former partners at kleiner perkins. this is a different story. there is always going to be that addressed to women. when i get off the air with you now, i will have e-mails in my inbox that are never things you would get from appearing on tv for a appearing on v. i do think culture is starting to change. reddit is a throwback to the early towels when it was seen to be okay to bully women.

things went so far in gamer gate over the last year that actually the public at large has lost a lot of taste for this. sites like gawker they attack women less than six months ago. some of it is changing. there's always going to be this basement underground cesspool to the internet the way there is in humanity and real life. if we try to shut it down it's going to going somewhere else. it's unfortunately human nature. >> i suppose the answer is to be better knowing where it is how to avoid it it, having better tools to manage some of that nastiness. thanks for being here. >> i don't think it's going to become a billion dollar ad business because it's not. >> thanks for being here. a preview of one of the biggest stories of next week right after this quick break.

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i like to close the show

with a look ahead to a big story this coming week. that's espn's annual sports awards ceremony the espys. the arthur ashe courage waurd is going to caitlyn jenner her first time speaking to the cameras since appearing on that magazine cover. that's all for this edition of "reliable sources." stay tuned. state of the union starts right now. >> donald trump's relentless rhetoric on immigration. >> these are people that shouldn't have been in this country. they flow in like water. >> is drawing huge crowds but threatening to tear the gop apart. can the party contain trump? >> and has the republican infighting created an opening for hillary clinton? >> they range across a spectrum of being either grudgingly welcome or hostile toward immigrants. >> she reacts in an exclusive