it's expected to become the ninth biggest economy by 2050. a big change from number 20 in 2014. according to pwc's latest world in 2050 report. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. good morning. i'm brian stelter. it's time for "reliable sources." ahead this hour, the big media questions of the week. is donald trump unraveling? is fox news the reason why? i'm going to ask the dean of political journalists. carl bernstein, ahead. hear from two women who were contestants on trump's "apprentice." one of the country's most influential anchor men has a surprising review of fox's debate moderators. i'm beginning with this, exclusive reporting about donald trump's assault against fox news. on thursday he did not like the way he was questioned by fox's debate moderators, especially

megyn kelly. he called the questions vicious, rr ridiculous, unfair. he said kelly really bombed. he said fox should be ashamed. then on friday night, here on cnn, he said this. >> she gets out and she starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions, and you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever, but she was, in my opinion, she was off base. >> now, trump says he meant her nose. but many people perceive it as a reference to kelly's period, her time of the month. honestly, i can't even believe i'm talking about this on tv right now. so because of that, because of that exchange, trump was disinvited from a gop gathering in atlanta on saturday. his rivals are hoping that his campaign is now going to self-destruct. this morning cnn's jake tapper challenged trump. here is what happened. >> let me just ask you a question, sir.

do you -- i understand you're saying that you -- you did not mean to suggest that megyn kelly was having her period. you were saying -- >> of course i didn't, jake. who would say that? jake, i went to the wharton school of finance. i was an excellent person. i am a smart person. i built a tremendous company. i had a show called "the apprentice" that nbc sdesperatey wanted to do another season. do you think i would make a stupid statement like that? only a sick person would even think about it. >> i guess i am a sick person. trump says he is not going to apologize. this is a true clash of titans. he is the republican frontrunner and fox is the favored network of republicans. fox news chairman roger ailes is a gop king-maker. how can this be a winning strategy for trump? let me take you into the mind of ailes for a moment. fox hasn't covered this blood comment once in the 36 hours.

fox is not commenting and megyn kelly personally is not commenting on what trump said. there has been so much viciousness directed towards kelly online it's created security concerns for fox. she'll be back on the air tomorrow night. maybe trump will come on her show at some point. for the time being she doesn't want to be seen as a victim. she wants to be seen, rightly, as a tough journalist. she is taking the high road. ailes' strategy is to let trump's campaign implode on its own. it's notable that fox has not covered this controversy at all in the last day and a half. joining me nowi joining me is george pataki. thanks for being here. i have to ask you at this point should trump drop out of the race? >> his candidacy is an there ab

travesty. he started out by sunlandering a group of people. he slandered our p.o.w.s. this is not being politically correct to not speak like this. we're referring to basic decency. his candidacy, in my view, shouldn't have been taken seriously from the beginning. i know the american people and republicans will reject it and want somebody who can actually lead. we need grown-up government. that's what i hope to bring to this campaign and to the white house. >> you say we need it, but he is leading in the polls. presumably he'll still be doing well when the polls from after the debate come out. so what does that tell you about the republican party and about grass-roots conservatives? >> it's biased, the summer before the election. this is theater. he has 99% name i.d. ultimately the american people want someone who can bring the american people together. i've never seen us more divided as a people.

i want to reach across party lines. republicans and democrats working together to solve problems. the world is in flames. people don't have the jobs that they want. people doubt the future of america. we're talking about this. this is nonsense. this isn't who is auditioning to be head of the next reality show. this is about who is going to be the next president of the united states. >> it may be nonsense -- >> that's why i'm running. >> yet trump himself keeps talking about the blood comments. he said he meant megyn kelly's nose. you have daughters, i wonder if you have discussed his comments with them. >> we all know they are reprehensible. in my view, just one of many reasons why donald trump is unqualified and unfit to be president of the united states. but brian, this election should be about who is going to protect us from radical islam, who is going to get our economy going again, who is going to end the crony capitalism in washington where the powerful and rich get all the breaks and the average

american gets the short end of the stick. who can governor successfully. i ran a deep blue state for 12 years successfully, bringing people together. that's what we need as the next president. not that's right. not reality show. not candidates setting their hair on fire so they can get on tv because that's all you guys talk about. they want to hear about who can lead this country forward and that is me. >> he has a lot of hair to set on fire. governor, thank you for setting the table with us this morning. appreciate it. >> thank you, brian. good being on with you. not everyone agrees with the governor. while there is an establishment push against trump, there is a whole lot of grass-roots support for him. the headline on the drudge report, republican leaders declare trump dead, again. there is a lot of chatter in the tv industry this weekend that fox news has turned on trump, trying to take him down. alex marleau is here to talk about that. alex, you do feel that way, right? fox on thursday at the debate

set out to go tough on trump to hurt him. >> oh, absolutely. i think fox is trying to consolidate support of the gop establishment as well as people in the center. the fox bosses are geniuses. they've proven they can dominate cable news and dominate the republican party in terms of media. they're making a play, it seems like by this line of questioning, that they're now going to go after the center, cbs, nbc, abc. the media landscape is changing. >> you're saying fox is being a moderate. >> yes. i think this is a big push towards the center. they put up a centrist host. >> you think kelly did a nice job? >> i don't believe she did a nice job. i thought her line of questioning led to a lot of gossipy answers, and trying to create this sort of negative energy around trump. i take issue with a lot of that, but i see fox' strategy. they put on a show. >> you don't think kelly was just doing her job, being as tough as possible on the candidates to see if they're

ready to be president? >> i think she was releasing opposition research similar to what you've seen from the dramatic party. going through harassment claims like season six for the guest doesn't recall what happened and wasn't offended by it at all. 14 seasons. going back eight seasons seemed strange. there is a war on women going on on this planet, brian. it's not happening in donald trump's boardroom or his twitter feed. yet that was the second question of the debate, setting the tone for a snarky night. >> wasn't it a test and trump failed the test showing he is not ready to be a leader? >> i don't think he failed it. i don't think he gave great answers on that question. it's shocking to have to defend your family. the rosie o'donnell clip, which megyn kelly didn't talk about, rosie o'donnell is mocking women in trump's pagganeantspageants, trump's family in the clip. hopefully trump will improve with his answers. i think his answer to the first question wasn't great either.

but it was his first debate as a presidential candidate. he didn't look nervous, unlike many of the others. i think he'll be around for a long time. >> your message to fox this morning is what? >> my message to fox is i think the grass roots were a little bit let down by their line of questioning, but i think, by and large, the mainstream media and i think the viewers praised on your site, cnn, praise at the new york times, a lot of the media elite appreciated what fox news did. from our commenters, from our 18 million readers, it's overwhelming that they were let down. they love fox. i don't think this is the end of fox as a conservative brand because they're so dominant but you see this is a move in a different direction. >> it's important to hear that perspective because so many journalists were applauding the tough questions from megyn kelly and the other moderators, yet some of the viewers at home were

taken aback by it. >> this is why i appreciate you having me on the show. our audience, it's a vast and diverse audience, but it is largely conservative grass roots. that's the primary voters, people who are going to "the new york times" opinion page might not be those voters in the republican primary. and some of these comments about megyn kelly will just solidify trump support. >> he said the anger that is out there, that's real. whether trump is the right guy for it or not, has to be taken seriously. the grass roots anchor. thanks for being here. for the record it's important to say, fox news chairman roger ailes says he is not pulling strings and not s i trying to turn his network against trump. he said he had no hand in coming up with challenging questions in the debate. there has been speculation that he was behind it. let me bring in carl bernstein, the famed author and journalist. we heard jon stewart sign off from "the daily show" this week.

he said it's important to listen and smell for bull out there. he said bull is everywhere and we have to be vigilant against it. did you hear bull from trump yesterday? >> i know donald trump for 25 years, i've heard a lot of bull over those 25 years. but the important thing is that he is getting what he wants, and republican party has got a huge trump problem that is liable to persist into election day. i think joe biden is probably recalculating whether he is going to enter the race. i think carly fiorina may have to be on the republican ticket because of what trump has done here. and that hillary clinton is the real beneficiary, assuming biden doesn't come in, of all of this. this is an unheard of problem for a major party, and they've got it. >> when we're covering something like this, in this case the republican primary, it's important to think about what we're not conferring, the democratic primary. biden and clinton. the single most retweeted

message on twitter from any candidate on thursday night? the tweet that resonated the most of all was from bernie sanders. let's put it up on the screen. his critique of the debate. he said not one word about economic inequality, climate change, citizens united or student debt. that's why the republicans are so out of touch. do you agree with that perception that the democrats benefited from the republicans' performance on thursday? >> totally. because nobody took donald trump on, including the head of the party, after trump said he might run as an independent, which i suspect he's going to do. because he is the most, you know, notable person in the world now, and that's what he's always wanted. when the head of the party is afraid of donald trump and won't condemn him, as he did the other night, this is huge. and -- >> you mentioned that of the party -- head of the republican party backed out of an interview on face "the nation." he was booked and saturday he canceled. i wonder if he doesn't want to talk about the trump issue right

now. you heard what alex said about the grass roots. i think the idea that many fox viewers were turned off by the tough questioning on thursday of trump and maybe they'll actually solidify their support for trump because of that. >> i think that's true. he has a constituency that is so disaffected that if he says, stay home, don't vote for the republicans, i think an awful lot of those people are going to do that. he has produced not just theater -- don't say that this is just a reality show. this is the united states of america, and he has tapped into the reality of the united states of america, and that includes our penchant for crazy theater. and he is right on stage in the middle of the stage of crazy theater in america right now. >> do you buy into the idea that fox news is tilting the scales by being tougher on trump and now this weekend by just ignoring him altogether? >> significanis that significan?

>> i think fox news did a terrific job with the debate and that they ought to perform as a real news organization more often, and it was good to see. >> what would your advice be going forward as reporters cover trump? i always like to hear your advice for journalists because you have been at it, you know better than anybody what it's like. when you're covering trump, when you're interviewing trump, sometimes it's hard to even get an answer out of him. what's your message to journalists who have to do it? >> i think there is a similar problem with covering trump and hillary clinton because both of them are huge celebrities, and they don't want you to be deep down and personal and looking at who they really are. so i would say, in the case of both, and having written a book about hillary clinton, a biography, we need to go deep down and see who these people are, see what their real records are, as we learned some of during the debate. and meanwhile, unfortunately, we have to cover the theater.

and that is a very difficult thing to put context to, because we now have two huge theatrical performers, trump, clinton. let's also see what joe biden is going to do in the next few days, because this might really push him in. i talked to his people earlier in the week. i think he was undecided. but i don't know what this might do, because he knows enough that the republicans are really vulnerable now in a way they haven't been. and also that hillary is vulnerable. >> that's a great tease about biden there. carl, thank you for being here this morning. coming up on the program, fox news pulled off one of the most viewed cable shows in history. i'll tell you how it was even higher rated than you think. with all the accusations of misogny related to trump, two insiders are here. up!

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the official number is 24 million. 24 million people watched the prime-time debate. how big is that? it's almost bigger than everything else that's aired on tv this year. wigg bigger than the world series, the nba finals. bigger than the finales or "the walking dead." that underestimates the audience. it's only an average. the better way to look at the ratings is the overall reach. the people who watched at some point between 9:00 and 11:00 even if they didn't watch the whole thing. that number is 36 million. that is extraordinary! the average viewer actually watched for 87 minutes, almost the whole thing. so once you tuned in, you were hooked. i actually woke my wife up out of bed to watch the debate. it was that good, right? trump does have to get a lot of credit for the viewer turnout. but it wasn't just trump. even the happy hour debate at

5:00 p.m. had 6 million viewers on average but a total reach of 10 million people. trump wasn't even there. great exposure for the candidates. now, compare that to the first prime-time debate in 2011, an average of 3.2 million people watched that one. there is a huge amount of interest. trump keeps saying he was the winner. it got me thinking. maybe trump means something else. maybe his definition of winning is not becoming president. maybe his definition of winning is being on tv. being the center of attention, getting the biggest crowd. and he won, if that's the case. what the ratings tell us is the trump show is now the biggest show on the fall schedule. fox has earned high praise for the season premiere. so let's analyze it as a tv show with two experts. abbey and david. thank you both for being here. >> good morning, brian.

>> thanks. >> abbey, you're used to being on a different channel. msnbc. >> is that not msnbc? >> no. new change for you. your reaction to the blood comments that are dominating msnbc and cnn this weekend. if you're megyn kelly, are you doing the right thing by not commenting and hoping this thing blows over? >> it is so weird to hear people talking about periods and blood on national television. jake tapper's interview with donald trump. we're talking about running for president here. you had megyn kelly positioned perfectly to ask the question to him about how he talks about women, calling them pigs, calling them disgusting. >> you think it was a fair question. >> it was. had she not asked it, we would be talking about why weren't the questions asked. he is running for president of the united states. how you talk about people,

things you say matters. if any of the other candidates had said those things before, first of all, they probably would not be up on the stage. if they were, they would be asked the same question. i think it matters and people should care. >> fox is able actually i think to ask tougher and sharper questions than the other channels. if the cbs or nbc person had asked those questions they would be accused of bias, of being unfair. david, you predicted what would happen in a july 26 column. you called for a tv journalist to take on trump. you wrote, maybe megyn kelly is the one to bring the donald to heel on august the 6th. you called it. you saw this coming. what was your take on how kelly handled mr. trump? >> well, that actually was the last column of that paragraph. brian, the point was -- thanks for mentioning it, by the way. but the point was -- the point -- now everybody will know that i called it.

but the point is that i was saying that every -- for over a month at that point we were talking about trump every day. all the coverage, everywhere, instead of talking about who was going to be the next leader of this country, what we wanted in a leader. it was a conversation -- it was a conversation filled with put-downs, with really, you know, crude things, nasty things said about mexicans, about p.o.w.s, all the things governor pataki mentioned earlier. and then -- so we're not talking. we're not -- the conversation of democracy is literally debased. i know that sounds like high-sounding bull talk. >> but it's true. >> but it's true! thank you! that's exactly what he does. so i said, look, this isn't -- this isn't a moment of joe mccarthy and edward r. murrow, but it might be katie couric and

sarah palin. no other journalists were able to step up and take him on that way. it says something about their political courage or lack of it, i think. i said, look, i think a journalist or a television personality, a strong one, needs to take him on. and you are right. someone from fox has kind of an authority that others don't, because if someone from another channel, say cnn did it, conservatives would say, oh, it's all political bias. that's why they're doing it. if say bill o'reilly or megyn kelly did it, they couldn't make that charge as easily. that's why it had more power. o'reilly had a shot right after the john mccain comments by trump, and he didn't take it. that's why i didn't think he was going to do it. i don't think he wanted to do it. but kelly went for it. i tell you, part of the reason i think, for the ratings, brian, is for the last two weeks at least, journalists like you and me and others have been building to this because we wanted to see what happened when somebody came at him. >> true.

>> i just want to say this about what kelly said. i think she did really good research. i don't think it's oppositional research. i think it's journalistic research. i think the tv element that you were talking about that she brought to it is she asked these questions about an edge. when she said, for example, when she questioned him on some of his more liberal views and said, so when was it that you became a republican, essentially. that kind of edge is good television in a way. they were pointed, kind of aggressive questions. i just -- >> even the staging. >> yes. >> looking on camera right now, megyn in the mild between the two men. it was produced very well. >> they thought a long time before the event how it was going to look and play out. give them a lot of credit. being a moderator of the debate with that many candidates is not easy to do. fox lived up to its brand. it was newsy, provocative and still conservative. even from the starting moment of the first question, raise your hand if you cannot commit to the

party, promise you won't run as an independent. they knew donald trump would be put in a corner. from the moment it started, you didn't want to leave your seat. people stayed through the debate. 24 million viewers. for the most part people watched it for the entire two hours. >> right. >> the most telling point to me was the awkward two minutes or so before it actually officially started. >> right. >> it was like, what is happening here? in a way it was brilliant. even though they didn't plan the moment it was brilliant. you wanted to see what was coming next. >> great to see you, abbey and david. thank you for being here. america's premier spanish language news anchor, jorge ramos is here with us after the break.

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it was one of the most dramatic moments of thursday's debate. fox's chris wallace challenging donald trump to defend his comments about mexico sending illegal immigrants to america with actual facts. here is how trump responded. >> so, if it weren't for me, you wouldn't even be talking about illegal immigration, chris. you wouldn't even be talking about it. >> i don't have a clip to show you of trump giving evidence because he didn't give evidence. how was the debate covered by the hispanic media? how did the moderators do from the perspective of a moderator himself? our next guest is the perfect person to ask. not only is he an anchor on univision. he is one of the best interviewers on television. jorge ramos. i'm eager to hear how you think the candidates performed.

how do you think the typical jorge ramos viewer did? >> everybody was interested and listened to donald trump, whatever he had to say on immigration. and also for us, remember, it's the first time in history in which we have two presidential candidates who are latinos. so that was also -- part of the community was interested in finding out exactly what they -- they were going to say on immigration specifically. >> did trump worsen his position with the hispanic community through his comments about immigration? >> i think so. i think donald trump is the loudest voice of intolerance, division and hatred in america right now. what he is saying about immigrants and women is not only disgraceful but dangerous. just imagine a presidential candidate talking like that. it's a terrible example. >> how is it dangerous? tell us. >> i think it's dangerous when other people might not only repeat what he is saying but act upon it. that's -- that's very dangerous.

now -- >> you're saying donald trump's comments could incite violence? >> when you are saying falsely that mexican immigrants are criminals or rapists, that's absolutely false because all the studies suggest that immigrants are less likely to be -- to commit crimes than those who were born in this country, according to most studies. of course it is dangerous when a candidate talks like that because, just imagine what other people just might do with it. absolutely. >> what's your relationship like with trump? back in june he published your personal cellphone number. >> he did. >> he says he is suing your parent network, univision, for $500 million because of the miss u.s. situation. tell me what your relationship is with him. >> i think, to publish my cellphone was childish and immature. it shows you that, to have a lot of money doesn't mean that you can have good manners. and i've been getting -- it's been like a birthday because i

have been getting tons and tons of phone calls and texts of people congratulating what our coverage instead of just getting people criticizing our coverage of donald trump. >> wait. you haven't changed your number? >> i changed my number, but i kept many of the calls that i got. >> oh, okay. >> and hundreds of texts. so it was quite an interesting experience. >> donald trump basically made you change your cellphone number. that's a pain. >> he did. but he has my number. is he afraid of talking to me or univision? why doesn't he want to talk to us. obviously this bravado that he has is not communicating well with the latino community. >> aside from immigration what are the other priorities you think univision viewers, hispanic audiences in the country, were paying close attention to in this debate and will be in future debates. >> i wanted to know what they would do with 11 million

undocumented immigrants. nobody challenged donald trump on that one. also i wanted to know if the republican candidates will take us to war. all of them are against the iran deal. i understand that. however, what's going to happen with that? does that mean if iran decides to continue the nuclear program, that they will bomb iran? or are we going to get into war if they try to defeat isis? i mean, those were questions that i didn't find answers in the debate. >> take me inside the mind of a moderator. i want to hear your evaluation of the three moderators from fox's debate. what i saw online as the debate was happening from journalists who rarely say nice things about fox actually praising the moderators. did you feel the same way? >> exactly the same way. i thought that fox news -- that they were going to do exactly the same thing that they've been doing for many years, which is being sympathetic to republicans, protecting them, defending them. and what i found were three real journalists asking tough questions, not open-ended questions. no softballs.

i was pleasantly surprised. i thought they did a fantastic job. if we can choose winners for the debate, they would be the three moderators from fox news. i would never expect myself to say something like that, but they did a fantastic job. that's what we want as journalists. you want to ask tough questions. and sometimes you have to take a stand as a journalist. and they did take a stand. when it comes to corruption, discrimination, racism, lies, dictatorships or human rights. you have to take a stand. >> you've been impressed by how they handled the debate. why do you think they were tough on these republican candidates? one cynical view would be they're trying to toughen up the nominee to put them in a better position against hillary clinton in the general election? >> our job depends on being credible. if people don't trust what you say and what you do, then that's it as a journalist. it was a huge challenge with a huge audience, and i think they did fantastic. >> univision has been seeking to have a debate as well, coming up

in the winter, right? >> either in february or march with the democrats. we're trying to get the some one with republicans but for some reason they don't want to do it with us, yet. >> yet! >> yet! >> i hear you saying, you think they'll eventually come on board. >> we're negotiating, we can call it a debate. we're interested in having republicans talking on the record to us and to our audience. >> thanks for being here, jorge. >> great talking with you. the next republican debate is here on cnn in september. we found out this week that the democratic debate schedule, the first debate will begin in october, october 13th on cnn. up next did megyn kelly give donald trump a fair shake? we'll ask two women who have worked with donald trump one on one. i think you'll be surprised what they have to say, right after this. ♪

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. welcome back. this morning donald trump said here on cnn that he cherishes

women. but it was pretty clear on thursday's debate and subsequent interviews that he does not like answering questions about the comments he makes about them. when megyn kelly challenged him about calling specific women in the past fat pigs and other kind of nasty words and language, it left trump fuming. and fuming at megyn kelly and at fox news. it's left many people wondering if donald trump, to be frank, has a woman problem. if he is sexist in some way and what his attitude around women. people are asking if it will be his campaign's downfall. let's hear from two women i think support trump. they used to be stars on the apprentice. joining me from miami, first season contestant katrina campins and from los angeles, three-time contestant omarosa manigault-stallworth. thank you both for being here. >> thank you, brian. >> thanks for having us. >> i think you were room mates in season one. is that right?

>> we were. >> we go way back. >> omarosa, i heard you saying you think trump did a great job at the debate. speaking bluntly here, does he have a woman problem? >> first of all, donald trump does not have a woman problem. i think this is equivalent to going through somebody's trash and cherry-picking the things you think will bring down his campaign. going through comments donald trump has made in the last 30 years is the lowest form of journalism. yeah, he said things off the cuff. to use them and try to apply them to all women. because he doesn't like rosie o'donnell doesn't mean he hates all women. i think it's ridiculous to paint with such a broad brush. he does not have a woman problem. >> was megyn kelly's question fair on thursday, then? >> look, it's so clear to me that megyn kelly has a bone to pick with donald trump. everybody saw it. they're calling it hard-core journalism. i call it very, very personal. donald trump is really good about reading people's

intentions, and her intentions was not to give him a fair chance of showing where he stands on women's issues. if she wanted to know where donald trump stood on women's issues, he would ask about reproductive health or how to make the minimum wage work for women in the workplace. asking about his comments about rosie o'donnell didn't give him an opportunity to show on where the stands on the real issues that affect women. >> katrina, have you heard trump talk in a way about women that's made you uncomfortable? >> i have to say that i have a great working relationship with trump until this day, for over a decade. with trump and with his children. and i say first and foremost, it's important to note that i think he has great potential to really reform the political corruption that we have in our system now because he is independent from lobbyists and special interest groups. so, because of that, i think he struck a chord with so many americans. as far as his comments about rosie o'donnell, i mean, that feud goes so far back.

when he commented on rosie o'donnell, he was an entertainer on reality television. as a woman who works with him today, i don't think donald trump has a problem with women as omarosa stated. i think it's petty and that focusing on this is losing sight on the other important issues we should be discussing like health care and immigration and other things that are more important to the american people. >> that's fair. but i do wonder if trump sets himself up for this sort of thing by making comments like he made to don lemon like he did on friday night. he didn't refer to her period specifically but he put his foot in his mouth. don't you think he damaged his own campaign at moments like that? >> let's reflect. he was uninvited to an event that basically i think erick made a big mistake. he is dominating the headlines. regardless of what he said and

how he said it, you all are talking about him this morning, and in my book, that's a win. >> that's a win says omarosa. do you agree? >> another thing, to that -- to that point, i think something else that's interesting is he is getting a lot of grief in the media for raising his hand. as a republican -- >> saying he might run as an independent. >> correct. and that would absolutely be detrimental to the republican party. but then i found out after the fact that allegedly three of the republican candidates threatened to boycott the debate if trump were involved. now, what would your reaction be? you know, so it makes sense in content now looking back to why he had that stance. if that is indeed true. >> katrina, omarosa, thank you for sharing your points of view with us this morning. >> thanks, brian. i mentioned last week, trump really is the story of the summer. but there were ten republicans on that main stage on thursday.

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all over the tube today, people have been looking back at thursday's debate, i'm as guilty as anybody. let's look forward to the next gop debate, the one on cnn here in september. the race is already on to be in the top tier. the question is are television networks being fair by using national polls to decide who gets valuable air time? lee marin goff is here with the marist institute of public opinion. you decided to stop conducting national horse race polls because you don't want to be helping figure out who is in the top tier and the lower tier,

why? >> from the statistical standpoint, all polls are estimates there is a range. 5.2 suspect necessarily more than 5.1, yet politically it has a huge impact. so there's -- what we are seeing here in the use of these polls, there's a big distinction in terms of whether you make the debate but stat test delicious's no difference. >> let's look at the cutoff from thursday, between ohio governor between john kasich, he according to fox had a 3.2% approval rating -- support rather and former texas governor rick perry had 1.8%. how big a difference would that actually be? it sounds like it is not very much. >> it could have been flipped and in our national poll that we did do with mcclatchy, we asked electability question, who runs better against hillary clinton, perry ran better than kasich? who has a better favorability rating in terms of republicans, perry was actually higher. >> perry to go to the 5 p.m. debate instead of the 9 p.m. debate. cnn will have everybody in primetime, you say a better way than doing it, rather than an afternoon and debate. >> don't have 6 million viewers

and 24 million viewers and don't get the sense here there's 1% for everybody, a floor, low standards. >> so, fox had no floor. you think it is better that cnn will have a 1% floor? >> yeah, because what if there was a 5% floor? well, and the fox, 5% support, you split made the cut, you might have not made the cut, depending on the ranking. we don't want to have a ranking because of the error margin and the range. so you have taken away the rounding, that's good. both you and fox are using good, scientific polls. the democracy will not suffer if there's no mcclatchy/marist poll for your debate as there wasn't for the fox debatism just think from a public poll standpoint, do we really want the polls playing such a big role and do we want the media relying not on their own news judgment as to who should be include bud on what the polls are saying, which statistically, may not be all that important, might be rather meaningless. >> also, the parties issue, the ones that have 17 canned dad and decide to enter the race. the networks have to do

something about it and i don't know if you have a better solution, instead of using polls. >> polls have been used in a lot of context and a lot of campaigns before. so, 1% may actually have the effect of equally treating everybody and eliminating a few. that could happen. then if you get down to maybe 12 or 14, how about 6 and 6 or 7 and 7 mixed up in primetime, which you are doing, you don't have this, you know, not ready for primetime poll -- not ready for primetime candidates and the primetime candidates so you mix it up, you don't get into this carly fiorina problem. we don't know what she would have done in the primetime. she is getting a bounce presumably because she was doing very well in a slow pack. >> and now everyone predicting that she might be in the debate. >> and musical chairs. so, who gets left out as a result of her bounce and then we see -- so it's a real convoluted way of doing this or picking the president, there's a better way. we are going to get into horse race polls. we are not out of the business, but down the road, particularly not during these first debates

when there's such a huge audience and it's an opportunity for candidates to strut their stuff and this is sort of limiting in the way the polls are being used that way, a bad use of public polls but, you know, as i say -- >> stepping out for now. >> taking a poll and we did other things and we will do, you know, iowa, new hampshire tossup questions, not being used. >> no national for now? >> a thank that agencies correct. >> lee, thanks for being here. good to heart scientific perspective. we will be right back with more "reliable sources" in just a moment.

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>> i'm out of time, but state o