interview with former vice president cheney tonight on anderson cooper 360 at 8:00 easter. thanks for watching. erin burnett "out front" starts right now. "out front" tonight, breaking news, three men on the run tonight after an illinois police officer is gunned down in cold blood. local, state and federal officers scouring northern illinois. we've live at the scene. donald trump and jeb bush trading attacks and insults on a daily basis but is trump targeting the wrong man? trump sounding like a democrat on one key question. let's go "out front. good evening, i'm pamela brown in for erin burnett. "out front" breaking news,

police, state and federal agents on the hunt for three men suspected of shooting and killing a police lieutenant. a ground and air search is underway for two white men and one black man that gunned down officer joseph glenwitz. a visibly shaken mayor remembered the officer known as g.i. joe. >> today not only did we lose a family member, i lost a very dear friend. >> community obviously shaken up there. this is happening an hour north of chicago right near the wisconsin border and the no fly zone is in effect over a two-mile radius in that area. ryan young is "out front" from the scene. what is the latest with the manhunt? >> reporter: you can hear the pain and see the officers that

arrived, a lot with stone faces. in fact, we're in an area where they are doing staging for the entire operation and seen officer after officer flow into this area to make sure they are part of this. we seen officers in the back of pickup trucks with long weapons and atvs and on train tracks as they try to make sure this perimeter is set. we talked to a business owner that believes the man ran toward the wood line in this direction and from every direction we can see, we can see groups of officers working together as far as the eye can see to make sure a certain neighborhood is off. the 32-year vet made that call and took off on foot of them. of course, he was shot and killed. the three men, two described as white, one black, we're hoping to get more information but so far that's what police provided us. helicopter, police helicopter over our head searching this area.

it's been a hot day and you can see officers obviously and everyone else, the heat is taking a toll but some hope the people out there are also feeling the pain of trying to run from these officers. this is a town of about 10,000 people and a lot of people have reflections on this officer, g.i. joe but served for quite a long time and at this point the massive manhunt continues, three men remain on the loose. >> okay. ryan young thank you so much. and "outfront" tonight, the owner of that business in the live shot located less than a quarter mile from where the lieutenant was shot and killed. mike, thanks for coming on. i know you must be shaken following events today. you got into work and then moments after this lieutenant was shot, what was the scene like? >> you know, when i first got here this morning at about 8:00, there was not too many cops driving around but there was a small police presence.

i probably would say three to six cop cars driving up and down the street and a couple police officers working up and down the road with their guns out, but we didn't exactly know what was going on at that point in time. it wasn't until half an hour later until we finally found out they were searching for somebody and shot an officer. >> and at that moment, i'm sure one of your first thoughts was my child, you have three children, one of them was in lockdown at a school nearby. we know the lockdown has been lifted. many parents, though, are still having trouble getting kids home. what are you doing right now to keep your family safe? are you concerned? >> you know, right away in the morning i was concerned for everybody. two of my kids didn't have school today but my oldest was in high school on lockdown today. they had them laying on the ground in their classroom for several hours today but they finally lifted that at about 3:45, but it took my fiancee

almost an hour to drive approximately a mile and a half to go pick her up and it was about 5:00 when they finally picked her up from school. >> wow. and police have said that the lieutenant was checking on some suspicious activity. we don't know exactly what that was. do you have any idea what it could have been? have there been issues with crime in that area recently? >> no, it's a pretty quiet town. we don't really have crimes so to speak. we live in an area where everybody can leave their doors unlocked still. we have a pretty small police force down here. not much like this happens around here for sure. >> and we're looking at live aerials where the manhunt is taking place. i'm just curious, you're familiar with this area. what is it like? set the stage for us, if you would. >> well, we live, you know, it's like a small community about 10,000 people. there's like a main artery that

comes through town that leads to the highway. a lot of people come driving through town. the area where this all went down is a pretty fairly big wooded area. the reason it's vacant is because it's flood territory so they can't build so it's empty and marshy back there. just to the back of my business is where the marsh land starts and goes probably, you know, it's at least a good mile, two square miles from end to end from highway to highway. so it's a pretty big area they can hide in. >> right. we know they are still on the loose these three suspects. thank you so much for coming on to talk to us. >> sure, thank you very much. >> "out front" a former commander for the u.s. marshals. thanks for coming on. joe, i'll start with you. we know these men have been on the run for almost 12 hours.

there is only about an hour left of sun light in that area. how crucial is the next hour for authorities? >> you want to get them as soon as possible. once it hits dark you have to scale back the massive manhunt. not only dangerous for the officers but dogs out there, marsh lands, some of them you can fall in three, four feet deep. they have to be mindful of that but also put some some helicopter with infrared, too, that might help. the heat in the dogs, that takes a toll on them so they have to make sure we can get them enough rest, too. we want to be able to get this over with as soon as we can. >> absolutely. on that note, lenny, what do authorities need to do to make sure that not only this next how were but moving forward make sure the suspects don't escape days, weeks or forever because i imagine time is of the essence and longer it goes by the harder it becomes. >> that's right. pamela. timing is everything. it's been several hours now that

they have been on this manhunt. it's certainly intense where the crime was committed but there is an investigation going on, too, behind the scenes so nobody has been identified yet. i mean, you got over 30-year veteran that approached these three individuals for some reason. a foot pursuit ensued and put it over the air. i don't see him in knowing about his background, he's not going to chase three, he probably chased one and caught up to one. they could have gotten into a wrestling match, gun comes loose, it's anyone's guess how it went down. the sun is going down. whether you have infrared or thermal imaging or k-9, law enforce the is against it. >> you mentioned the suspects have not been identified publicly we don't know if authorities know the names and aren't releasing them. how do they even go about identifying these men, these two white men and the one african american male, joe? >> they have to do an area canvass and see if there is a cause, first thing that might

give them the clue. we don't know if there is a dashcam on the officers video in his car, he doesn't know if he has a body camera. those could lead into it and such a small town, near a walgreens, near other places that might have surveillance video that might have captured some of this on tape and might have these guys on video and law enforcement will hold back because they want to be able to execute warrants and don't want people helping them. if they are local, they don't want people holding them up so there might be a good reason we don't know them yet. >> let's talk about the landscape you eluded to, lenny, because as we heard, where this happened was in a pretty wooded area and homes, suburban area, businesses, boats in the area, how does this landscape impact the search? does it benefit the suspects or police more? >> at this point, i mean, the way the landscape apparently looks and i'm not that familiar with the area but rough terrain. it happened early this morning,

the people were at work. kids were in school. there is a lot of unoccupied homes. they could have got into a home and bettered themselves down if they were contained in the perimeter. they did have somewhat of a jump start. did they get to a vehicle? we don't know who these people are. it's not like an escape case where somebody is identified and we can work them up a to z but we're not that fortunate. law enforcement, as joe said may have an idea. people talk. may have cooperators, videos shot from a nearby building and what not but, you know, like joe said i hope this gets taken care of and put this to bed quickly. >> it could be harder in someways, joe, the prison break i think about in new york, they know exactly who they were looking for. in this case probably more challenging but we do know there are k-9s helping out with this. does that say anything to you? >> well, i mean, they might have left something behind so they can use a k- 9 because the k-9

needs a scent. they could have went through touch dna process and taser holster and things, maybe can try to get that uploaded. right now we don't know so hopefully, they are doing everything they need to do. >> because we know some belongings on the officer were taken so perhaps that is providing clues to authorities. thank you so much. we appreciate it. "outfront" next, the deadly string of officer shootings across the down industry and jeb bush donald trump locked in words. should trump redirect his fire. raise taxes on the rich, is it politically impossible? we'll be right back. look like this.

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breaking news, take a look, live picture of chicago, just south of the wisconsin border this is a scene of police lieutenant charles gliniewicz was shot today. three men believed to be responsibl responsible. they are scouring this area north of chicago in a no-fly zone is in effect. lieutenant gliniewicz was pursuing the suspects but when backup arrived they found him with a fatal gunshot wound and stripped of his gun and pepper spray. he's the second officer killed in the line of duty in less than a week. we want to warn you, some of the video you're about to see is graphic. >> reporter: it seems like making sense of life on the streets of america is harder

than ever to unravel. the headlines the last few days are dizzying. a manhunt for the killers of a veteran officer in illinois. >> the chopper is overhead. >> reporter: a houston sheriff's deputy ambushed and gunned down at a gas station. >> cops lives matter, too. >> reporter: a san antonio man with his hands up gunned down by officers, and empty police chants in minnesota. houston's harris county sheriff still mourning the loss of one of his deputies where the debate is taking a toll. >> certainly those kinds of extreme rhetoric can lead to unintended consequences. >> reporter: the theory over incidents rages polarized opinions, even a video doesn't tell the whole story. in san antonio, this video shows bear county sheriff's deputies responding to a domestic disturbance call. they say he was armed with a

knife and injured two in the house. he has hands up and officers shoot. a local tv station aired the video and the sheriff's department says doing so endangered the police lives. >> it can't be us against them. it has to be police and community working together. >> reporter: cedric alexander spent 40 years in law enforcement. no matter how angry some communities might be, they don't want to live in a lawless neighborhood without cops. >> it's a tough time to be a police officer at this moment but these men and women doing the job aren't going to stop doing it. >> reporter: since the death of houston sheriff's deputy darren goforth, they helped organize a vigil around pump number eight where goforth was killed. he's seen the outpouring of grief but something else. >> it's a great feeling to see

what you see here and everywhere you look, you see people talking to law enforcement, giving them hugs and mainly this is a start to something different, maybe. >> reporter: maybe. these days feeling optimistic isn't easy. many people who come here to the memorial that is emerged at this gas station in northwest houston is one of the reasons why they come here trying to make sense of this and you hear that with people hoping that this time passes, and that all sides can find some common ground, but that seems to be very off in the future. pamela? >> seems like the divide is only growing, if anything. thank you so much. "outfront" tonight, former nypd officer bill stanton and van jones, a former advisor to president obama. thanks for coming on. bill, we heard there in the piece saying, you know, it can't be us against them, but it seems like that's the way it is and

the situation is only getting worse. who is to blame here? >> well, i think there are a small minority groups of folks that are painting cops really bad. they are saying if you're blue, you're guilty and that is a certain form of prejudice. cops are there to do their job overwhelmingly. they are good people doing god's work and going out with a target on their back. this shouldn't have to happen. >> you don't think cops are to blame at all? >> not at all. >> van? >> well, first of all, the first thing we have to do is say how sorry we are to the families. right now you have people watching this, someone has died. whether you're talking about the man who was shot with hands up or the officers, so i think the grief has to be first, let's find the people responsible, but let's not blame americans who are using first amendment rights to petition government for redress and blame them for

murders. i cannot believe we're in a country now where we blame black lives matter for bonnie and clyde? i mean, we have people targeting police officers for years and not you, sir, but other people have been indicating now that because americans are saying they want better policing, that they are now -- that movement is now responsible for these despicable murders. we had people murdering cops for decades. it's wrong but please don't blame an innocent political movement. >> van, so you know, you have the protesters who are largely peaceful, exercising the first amendment rights but then, let's listen to the march in minnesota over the weekend, a march to raise awareness for victims killed by police. let's take a listen to what they said. >> pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon. >> van, how is that productive? >> it's not and everybody that seen that video has been

appalled and should be appalled. i think the people who called demonstrations across the country have to take responsibility even if you have some people in the back doing and saying despicable things, you have to come forward and say that's not representative of the whole movement. at the same time, those kinds of things were not aired publicly before the shootings cannot be blamed. i don't care what somebody says at a rally or protest. nobody has the right to pick up a gun and shoot anybody else, even though a police officer. i'm from a law enforcement family. p if you do that, you are wrong and you cannot blame or chant someplace. i think we have to separate the two issues out. >> van, we're in rare agreement on this one but this is where i do disagree when you have these fractions, these small groups, cops are bad and we've seen what people, that guy from baltimore went to new york and executed those two police officers, where we're seeing people write notes,

you want a race war, you're going to get one. there is incitement and culture out there where cops are now open game, and we have to somehow mitigate that and trust our police officers. >> you know, i cover law enforcement on my beat. i talked to officers, van, who say i feel like i have a bull's eye on my back. i'm more nervous about my job. i work in an anti police culture. do you think officers have a right to feel this way? >> you know, i understand those sentiments. at the same time, what is actually driving the concern and the outrage are not the words of protesters, it's the videos of police officers who continue to do things that shock the conscience of the country. if i were a police officer, and i were blessed to have that role, i would be saying listen, let's make sure that our police departments are run better. everybody knows those officers on the force who continually go across the line, the police unfortunately have not been

empowered to go after their own and to be whistle-blowers. i don't think that it's the words of the protesters. it's the deeds of a small number of police officers who have been caught on camera again and again and by the way, none of these officers are in prison. you've watched now for a year and a half, officer after officer, video after video, not one officer is in prison -- >> officer wilson is guilty, van in ferguson? >> i'm not talking about officer wilson. >> because the hands up movement was based on total lies but yet politicians, celebrities, sports stars were doing hands up, all based on lies, even after they knew that it was a lie. >> but there have been -- >> you have hands up today. you have hands upright now today. >> law enforcement looks at -- >> those aren't cops, those are criminals. >> north charleston. shot him in the back. >> that's a murder and will be locked up. when you take the number of the police interactions that go on

every day from crossing an old lady across the street to wrestling with a man with a gun, the overwhelmingly small that end in shootings even smaller amounts are where a cop takes a life. van jones, bill stanton, thank you for that interesting discussion. appreciate it. "outfront" next, donald trump, jeb bush on the attack against each other. is this a fight bush can win? also, trump is looking to buck one of the corner stones of the republican party. can he reverse decades of gop promises and still be the nominee? we'll be right back. toenail fungus? seriously? smash it with jublia! jublia is a prescription medicine proven to treat toenail fungus.

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tonight donald trump and jeb bush both on the attack going round and round. the latest, a video on trump's website proclaiming no more clintons or bushes. >> we recognize the commitment of someone that devoted her life to public service. i want to say thank you to secretary clinton or president clinton. >> what does that make hillary clinton to the bush family? >> my sister-in-law.

>> sarah murray is "outfront" tonight with more. >> reporter: floundering in the polls, jeb bush firing off his harshest attack so far. using donald trump's own words against him in this youtube video. >> my views are a little different than if i lived in iowa. >> partial birth abortion. >> i'm very pro-choice. >> in an interview tonight with cnn, trump dismissing that attack. >> one other thing i'll say because he mentions the fact i was at one point a democrat. in new york city, everybody was a democrat, whoever wins the democrat primary is automatically, that's, you know, there was almost no election because the republicans hardly exist in new york city. >> reporter: but bush isn't limiting attacks to the web and taking it to the campaign trail. >> if you look at his record of what he believes, he accept ports democrats. using his own words is not a

mischaracterizati mischaracterization. >> reporter: so much for the the low-energy candidate. >> jeb bush is a low-energy person. for him to get things done is hard. he's very low energy. >> reporter: bush trying to show he has a sharp edge. retaliating against trump for an on slot of attacks via instagram. the latest, showing bush complimenting democratic front runner hillary clinton. >> we recognize the commitment of someone that devoted her life to public service. i want to say thank you to both secretary clinton and to president clinton. >> reporter: trump also hitting his opponent on twitter today calling the latest shot from bush yet another weak hit by a candidate with a failing campaign. will jeb sink as low in the polls as others who have gone after me? the escalating public battle between trump and bush as dr. ben carson quietly surges. the retired neurosurgeon suddenly tied with trump in iowa rallying the state's e van gel

kill voters. >> we have to stop listening to the people that tell us we cannot talk about god or our faith. >> reporter: this war of words has mainly been playing out on instagr instagram, twitter, the big question is whether anyone, especially jeb bush puts money behind the ads. i'm hering from his super pack that is not in the plans, no attack ads against donald trump but are still open to any possibility, pam? >> we'll have to see what happens. thank you. "outfront" tonight, rick wilson worked for george h.w. push and katrina pierson. katri katrina, i'll start with you. bush says not only is donald trump not a conservative, he says he's not even a republican. in your view has bush found the attack that can take down trump? >> i don't and this is why. simply because we've been hearing a lot the last few cycles about who is or isn't a republican or who is qualified

to run as president and the facts remain. all we have to do is look at the history, mitt romney was pro-choice. governor rick perry endorsed jon edwards. john boehner golfs with obama. everybody has these things to toss but at the end of the day, the voters are going to decide and the last two accomplishment candidates failed miserably. >> does katrina have a point. is this a fight bush can't win? >> listen, the problem with the fight with bush right now is that donald trump supporters are post rational. they don't care. donald trump could go out tomorrow and eat a live baby on television and think it's the greatest thing in america. this is a guy who supporters are locked into him. jeb bush is doing correctly is finally going after reminding the 75% of republicans who aren't in donald trump's camp this guy is not a conservative, never been and it's not one or two little things in the past, he's been proabortion and gun control and protaxes. he called hillary clinton a great secretary of state. this is a man who supported

hillary clinton financially, not just 25 years ago but four years ago. this is a guy, six years ago. this is a guy who is consistently, you know, tells his followers what they want to hear and ignore everything else. what jeb has to do here is keep addressing -- >> jeb bush did the same thing. he praised hillary clinton even gave her an award. >> here is the thing, jeb bush has never been pro-choice or progun control or protaxes. he's a long record as a conservative governor in the state of florida. this is not the same thing. this is not a guy and by the way, trump's excuse that he's a democrat because he live in new york i helped elect a republican mayor of new york city. 5-1 democratic registration and rudy won by being a guy tough on crime and talking about quality of life. this is not an excuse for donald trump because he lives in new york city to say i get a free pass to support hillary clinton

and harry reid and a whole host of people and the business case excuse for donald trump is mighty thin. >> okay -- >> he gives a response but you just don't like it. this is another thing most of the accomplishment establishmen getting. >> katrina, did barack obama spend more money -- >> they funded obamacare and amnesty and make promises -- >> katrina, barack obama out spent mccain and romney, i know you like to believe it's a republican conspiracy to elect obama but that's the crazy talk prevalent on your side of the fence. >> i believe if we had a consecutive -- >> we're in a situation right now, katrina, where donald trump is not a conservative, he's scamming conservatives on one or two issues pretending to be one. he's not a conservative. he's talking about tax increases, a wild expansion the size and scope of the federal government. this is a guy playing people on your side of this equation now

like chumps. you guys are being played like fools by this con man. >> so is medicare part d a big government program? is that republican? is -- >> katrina -- >> is that republican? because your republican establishment has delivered just that -- >> katrina, there is nothing -- >> here is what we do know, rick and katrina, the anti establishment candidates are topping the polls right now. yet, despite this, katrina, trump continues to go after jeb bush even though his ratings are sinking. although ben carson is the only other person, only other candidate in a dead heat with trump in iowa. is trump missing the target here? shouldn't he be going after carson and not bush? >> now, i think mr. trump simply does one thing. if you attack him, he attacks you and that's how it's been so far. >> rick? >> hold on a second, wait, wait, wait, that is not actually true. caroline kennedy, huma abdean. >> i'm talking about candidates

in the race. >> you have to make that clear. he's went after a lot of people and jeb bush he went after early on -- >> meets his attention that day -- >> go ahead, rick. >> the guy is a bully. he'll yell at whoever. i have no brief to demand huma but the fact of the matter he went after somebody not on his immediate radar screen and not somebody he's running against. the fact of the matter is, if you want to go after staff, donald trump is going to have a whole separate ride to have real soon now. >> katrina pierson, rick wilson, thanks for the lively discussion. do not miss don lemon's interview at 10:00 p.m. eastern on cnn tonight. "outfront" tonight, donald trump wants to raise taxes on corporations and the rich. it's a party that has long promised no new taxes so can trump make the case to republican voters? and across the country, the murder rate is soaring and many big cities, are police becoming less aggressive in a post

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>> tonight, republican front runner donald trump threatening a very non-republican idea raising taxes on some wealthy americans. trump's campaign says he'll release the complete plan in the next few weeks but he's already rattling the nerves of some party loyalists. tom foreman is "outfront." >> reporter: to hear trump tell it, his expertise is clear. >> who knows taxes more than me? i know the taxes very well. >> reporter: but what he plans to do about taxes is far mirkier. >> unbelievable. >> reporter: the poll-topping candidate floated a variety of ideas, easing the burden on working families. >> i want to lower taxes for the middle class. >> reporter: cutting back on government spending. >> there is so much fat in washington that if somebody got in that knew what they were doing, you don't have to raise taxes. >> reporter: and in a move that has alarmed some staunch republicans, trump is echoing a democratic line, make some rich people pay more. >> they pick the stock and all

of a sudden, they make a lot of money. i want the hedge fund guys to pay more. >> reporter: some probusiness anti tax groups like the club for growth are not impressed. >> he knows how business works for him to create money and he's happy to tax everybody else's business. that's a bad plan for the whole united states. >> reporter: trump says he can bring u.s. companies back from overseas by lowering their corporate taxes, but some of these groups are convinced heavier taxes on investors and punishing companies for shipping jobs will kill incentives for growth, wiping out jobs and productivity. ever since ronald reagan, republicans loved the idea of lowering taxes. >> read my lips, no new taxes. >> reporter: but many found keeping those promises can be tough and may require more than

trump offer so far. >> there are winners and losers in tax reform and those who lose scream really loud. >> reporter: it's the same complaint raised about trump's plan for immigration reform. what he is saying is popular, but hidden in the details he glosses over may be the devil that makes his economic plans impractical and politically impossible. pamela? >> tom foreman, thank you so much and now let's bring in ben ferguson a cnn political commentator. ben, great to have you on. >> good evening. >> just heard trump is proposing to raise taxes on some wealthy americans. what is he risking here? seems like that would alienate republicans. >> he's risking a lot but what he thinks he's going to gain from others that may not look at him before hand, a lot of people afraid of rich people. he's saying i'm so rich i know how the blame is played and i'll go after the rich people like me that aren't paying their fair share. it's a great mantra and the same

idea, i'll put terrifics ariffs companies that operate overseas. sounds great but when you're in a groelobal economy, you have te able to compete around the world and companies that go over seas to produce the goods. donald trump bought a lot of those goods. i don't think that has a shot of passing through congress, anyway. >> let's look at the recent poll numbers of likely iowa caucus goers found that 41% of them felt like trump's views were moderate. 35% said conservative. this looks like the majority of republicans are fully aware trump is a moderate. they like him anyway. does it matter if he wants to raise taxes? >> i think it will when it gets closer to election day and when you have people actually look and analyze this, i think he'll get hit by conservatives on this issue saying you do realize this is someone that's going against a complete opposite idea ronald

reagan tried to implement and you loved it so pay attention to the details and also people that will say you can say you're going to do this, but the reality is it's not going to happen so in many ways it's an empty promise and i think there is -- you're also going to see him be hit on stage in the next debate here on cnn on this exact issue but other candidates and i would do it. if i was advising them, i would say bring it up and i think he's vulnerable. >> and our don lemon did an interview. he said democrat wills vote for me. do you think there is a strategy to pull more democrats in? >> yes, i think he understands if he wants to win this, he has to pull from another group of people. this may be that strategy to do it to bring in moderates or democrats to his side. >> okay. thank you so much, ben ferguson. appreciate it. by the way, the full interview with donald trump will be on don lemon's show at 10:00 and "outfront" next, the murder rate up double digits in some of the

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years of decline, cities like dallas and milwaukee have seen double-digit increases in the number of murders. so what is causing this rise? our martin savidge is "outfront." >> reporter: i'm hitching a rise with the n.o.p.d., looking for trouble. what do you think it is in your precinct, the worst crime area now? in new orleans, the blood-spattered bad old days are making a comeback. here, two men are gunned down, murdered. we know that murder has gone up this year. why? >> if i had the answer, i would probably be a wealthy man. >> reporter: while violent crime overall has dipped, in the last year, homicide hs in the big ea have jumped 22% from historic lows. but it's not just new orleans. in atlanta, murders are up 12% over last year. chicago is up 20%. dallas, up 23%.

in the nation's capital, homicides are up 43%. an 18-year police veteran blames it on too many kids with too many guns with too little hope. >> youth that just don't know how to handle aggression. >> reporter: but could something else be to blame? some suggest police have become less aggressive and less visible in high-crime areas in the aftermath of public outrage following the deaths of michael brown and freddie gray, noting cities near or where those incidents happened have seen a huge jump in homicide rates from last year. ferguson's neighbor, st. louis, is seeing homicides up nearly 58%. and baltimore saw murders there jump up 56% over last year. speaking in disguise to brooke baldwin, this baltimore officer seems to admit cops have backed off, implying the public is getting what it asked for. >> i think the public really, really sees that they asked for

a softer, less aggressive police department. and we've given them that. and now they're realizing that their way of thinking does not work. >> reporter: you don't buy this theory that cops are backing off because of a public backlash? >> no, i don't. >> reporter: cedric alexander is a member of president obama's task force in 21st century policing. >> in terms of a work slowdown or not taking calls or only responding to 911 calls, that's not what's happening across this country. >> reporter: he points to other big cities such as phoenix and los angeles where homicide rates are actually slightly down from a year ago. >> i don't think anyone really has a handle on it. >> reporter: those who research crime say homicide rates can be a lot like the stock market. there can be short-term wild swings and you don't always know why. >> i think there are many

stories that people tell that are really not backed up by evidence right now. >> reporter: experts say we are still a lot safer than we were 15 to 20 years ago. as for the summer spike in homicides, it's a real murder mystery. martin savidge, cnn, new orleans. >> and philip banks is a former nypd chief of department. he joins us now. you just left your department not long ago, several months ago. what do you think accounts for this? in new york city where you worked, the murder rate has increased 9%. >> yes. well, nationwide -- i'm not sure there's one answer that fits all. i don't think that the reasoning for the increase in baltimore -- clearly baltimore, there's a problem with the amount of residents that they have in that particular city with their murder rates. there are issues there that need to be fix. in new york, one murder is too much. but it could just be an anomaly. certainly requires much more research analysis to determine whether or not we are going back to those particular days.

i certainly don't believe that we are. i haven't been introduced to anything. i would suggest in new york city this could just been a anomaly. it needs to be further researched. but i think we're in pretty good shape. >> one of the theories is that police officers are holding themselves back. i've spoken to cops because i cover law enforcement on my beat, they tell me that we're fearful if we do something, a split-second decision is going to backfire and end up going viral on the internet. how much of a role do you think that is playing, this culture right now between cops and their communities? >> well, i certainly would not think or believe or like to believe that police officers are holding back. the police officers that i've been blessed to work with over the years, i think it's a special breed. and i think they give their all. butly say it's human nature that

if you feel as though that you can possibly make a mistake and be treated like it was an intentional mistake, human nature could take over and you could be a little hesitant in how you apply your job. could that be happening? there's certainly a possibility. but i'm certainly not linking that to this movement that's going on in our country that wants criminal justice reform. i don't know that we can blame someone in this particular country who wants to create some type of a reform to link them to, they're a part of the problem -- i certainly reject that. i don't believe that you can put that on their doorsteps. i think the message has been manipulated. i certainly think we need to look further into that. >> the question now, how do you bring this rate down? thank you so much. we appreciate it. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] we know they're out there.

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thanks for joining us. "a.c. 360" starts now. >> good evening, thanks for joining us tonight. yet another police officer shot and killed in the line of duty and right now, a massive manhunt under way for his killers. fox lake, illinois, police lieutenant charles joseph gliniewicz, friends called him joe. colleagues on the force called him g.i. joe. this morning just before 8:00 reradioed he was on foot chasing three suspects, one african-american, two white people. a few minutes later, the radio went down, back-up units came, his body was found. three days since a houston's sheriff became the 25th officer fallen this year. lieutenant gliniewicz became the next.