to jail following a corruption scandal. he will find cleaning it up will be very tough and very serious work. thanks to all you have for being part of my program this week. i'll see you next week. good morning. it's time for reliable sources. our weekly look at the story behind the story of how news and pop culture get made. today we're pulling up the curtain on the gop debate process. every one in politics and every one in journalism is talking about one thing, cnbc's messy debate. the candidates are declaring mutiny and breaking with the national republican party. they're talking about their debate complaints. the big question is this. will all the future debates be actual debates at all. are the claims of media bias at cnbc legitimate or are the candidates trying to avoid media

scrutiny. he's covering what will be happening at this meeting tonight. what do you believe the campaigns want to see changed about the debates? >> representatives from the campaign's gathering in alexandria, virginia to discuss their proposed reforms for the debate. what they won't, they don't have a cohesive vision of what they want. in fact, what some of the campaigns want are rather extreme. we know that the carson campaign, for instance, wants to have all 14 candidates on stage. they want to cap the debates in two hours. they want to have five minutes for opening and closing statements for each candidate. you do the math there. before you get to commercials you're talking about 45 to 50 minutes left for an actual

debate. on top of that, they want more time to answer the questions. what you're looking at is really more of a forum than a debate. what that reflects is the desire among some of these campaign, not all, they really don't like the debate. they would have the forums where they can present their message in their own format and get off stage. that's really not what a debate is all about. >> it goes right to the heart of a definition of a debate. are they supposed to be promotional or journalistic? i think we would say journalistic but a lot of voters and viewers say they don't want to hear gotcha questions tossed at the candidates they are thinking about voting for. this is the tension that exists right now, isn't it? >> yeah, this is the tension. as we saw at the cnbc debate, the attitude toward the media right now especially on the right is at an all time low. there's not really a lot of leverage that the media organizations have here.

the republican campaigns have a ton of leverage but there's 14 campaigns. they don't all want the same thing. they can say we want to rest more control away from the republican national committee which we don't believe has done a good job handling the situation. at the end of the day they'll need someone who isn't a representative from these campaigns to be the go between with the media organizations. that's why i don't think we'll see the rnc fall out of this process. >> tell us about ben genzburg who will be at this meeting tonight. >> also the premier republican negotiator when it comes to the debates. he's not aligned with any campaign so far. he's the perfect guy to step in here. >> the go between? >> he's going to sort of facilitate the discussion in alexandria tonight. i wouldn't be surprised to see him serve as the go between with the media organizations and the

republican national committee coming out of this debate. >> it seems the rnc is trying to reassert control. we can put on screen part of the letter he sent in. he said that he thought the cnbc debate was out of control and it wasn't what was promised and we cannot continue with nbc without full consultation with our campaigns. this is him trying to get ahead of the these complaints. >> absolutely. it's a very dramatic move. as we know as people who cover the media industry, nbc news is not responsible for what cnbc does. it's very strange move. it's a dramatic move by the rnc to tell the campaigns we're serious. we understand this is an issue. the problem is nbc is partnered

for this debate is telemundo. >> that's the only spanish broadcaster. univision is not getting a primary debate. >> as you and i both remember from the 2012 campaign, is that after mitt romney lost, all these republicans came together and said we need to do a better job of reaching out to hispanics and latinos. taking away the one hispanic media partner is not a good way to go about that. there's a lot of time between now and february when the debate is supposed to happen. i wouldn't be surprised if we see both parties come to the table and figure something out and we have that debate come february. >> thanks for being here this morning. >> thank you. >> no new comment from nbc about the debate. they are waiting to see what happens at this debate tonight.

will you be attending. >> if that's appropriate but i'll at least have representatives. who delegated to the rnc and the networks to decide who is a candidate. you just did it again in your opening presentation. we talk about the 14 candidates. there are 15 candidates. cnn is trying to narrow the field the same way the rnc is. it's against the best interest of the people. i resent it. >> right now the candidates have a lot of leverage. the ratings are sky high thanks to donald trump and other candidates. how should the fox businesscnn should they be changed? >> i think they should be inclusive. i'm on the south carolina ballot. yet the networks and the rnc

have been rigging the rules in order to try to exclude me from these debates. that's improper. it's not in the national interest. it's not in the public interest. i want to see a proposal that says the 15 candidates all who are legitimate, previously elected officials, well, some of them are, people legitimate participants have an opportunity to have their voices heard. >> are you saying donald trump should not be on the stage? >> donald trump can be on it. no, to the contrary. it's the networks and the rnc who are trying to exclude people from the debates. i believe that people should be included in the debates. >> i hear what you're saying. i believe we should hear from more and not fewer. how can we fit 14 people on one stage? >> you don't have to. there's been proposals that have been very reasonable and fair. include everybody and have more than one debate and over more than one hour. why should you be setting up a

fake proposal about poll numbers when people who get on the stage get better poll numbers and people who don't get on the stage. >> i said 14. i should have said 15. i wonder if it's manufactured outrage. >> by me? >> what is wrong with debate moderators asking hard questions? why would a candidate want all 15 on stage unless the goal was to answer fewer questions? >> no, not at all. i have no concerns about questions. all my political life i have responded to hostile questions. >> and you're here today. i appreciate that. >> i'm worried about the rigging of the system by the rnc and the network, including your own. i had real momentum in this race until cnn decided to rig the rules in order to prevent me from preparing on the stage. they rigged it to advance carly

f fiorina. this is not just in the public interest. i have a voice here and something that needs to be said in the public interest about what is necessary to get people jobs and opportunities in this country. by voice has been quieted by the rigging of the system and the networks who have been given that authority by the rnc. that's not proper. >> i believe they made these rules in order to create manageable, producible events. i appreciate you being here. >> bologna. that's why they changed the rules to put carly fiorina on the stage. this whole business about the questioners, i get that part. i don't worry about that. tough questions are appropriate for a presidential candidate. to actually try to silence a

candidate, to silence a legitimate candidate who is on the ballot in many of the states and working from the basis of being a previous elected official is wrong. it's crooked. it's improper. the fcc -- one more thing. >> listen, i'm here. i'm trying not to silence you. i do appreciate your point of view on this. i do have to go. thank you very much for being here. >> thank you. >> let me underline one more point. the rnc declined interview requests this weekend, so has cnbc. i can tell you what's happening inside the network, a lot of finger pointing. much of the blame is rolling uphill to cnbc president. they're in two silos. right now there's some

resentiment internally. it's a sense that cnbc has endangered nbc's debate. to figure out where we will go next with this, let's bring in david borman. great to see you this morning. >> how are you? >> what is nbc going to do to get its debate back on track? >> they've got to keep pushing forward. once you get all the hot air from all sides out of the way, dylan's point is really important. this is telemundo debate. you mentioned journalism versus forum. debates are to inform republican primary voters and the other party democratic primary voters and people who will go to those caucuses. these debates are critical for the candidates to begin to punch

through and become known and even governor gilmore, although excluded from the debate, didn't seem to mind the questions and fox's debate were full of very tough questions. >> absolutely. >> in the candidates think they will get a free ride in the fox business news debate i think they are sorely mistaken. fox understands that they need to poke at these candidates to see how they think, to see how they react and you can't do that in talking points and position papers which is the result of what ben carson wants to do. >> let me play part of cnbc's debate. i want to hear why you think this happened. this is a couple of examples how the debate spiralled out of control. >> i got a question for governor bush. >> just a minute.

>> you don't want to hear the answer. you don't want to hear the answer. >> you want me to answer or do you want to answer? >> what are the rules on who gets to follow up? how do we decide who gets to follow up? >> it was at the moderator discretion. >> governor kasich, let's talk about -- >> short question. how could that happen? >> again, a bunch of factors but the most important one was that there was not a strong moderator. there were questioners. john harwood is a great guy. he did not assert himself as the moderator. cnbc paid no attention, to all the signals that were pointing at they were the low hanging fruit and the candidates were going to go after them.

the third leg of that stool you've got to come to a debate armed with good questions and your sources and where you got that information so that when trump through that very disingenuous misstatement back at the cnbc questioner, she had nowhere to go. she couldn't immediately say it's on your website. you've got to be able to be armed with the weapons that you need. in a way it's weapons because the goal is not to beat the candidates. the goal is to have the candidates emerge and speak so that voters know who their going to have to go into that booth or caucus and support for president. >> absolutely. thank you so much for being here and shearing your perspective. you have to hear from dan

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14 million people watched the debate. cnbc's rival, fox business, is hosting the next debate on november 10th. they've wasted no time piling on. >> cnbc never ask the real question, never cover the real issues. the real debate about our economy and future is only on fox business network. >> there's been a pile on. not just over on fox. all the media seems to be criticizing cnbc, but has it been fair? dan rather presided over a whole slew of debates. he knows as well as anybody what

it's like to be caught in the glare of media attention. >> you've been on those stages so many time, how would you review the moderators of the debate? >> they didn't do it perfectly. it wasn't their best night. i think we have to see clearly what's at play. candidates on the right side of the spectrum, a large part loves attacks on the press. the moderators open themselves up. it's a very tough role to be there. i see this as strictly optics. by the time we get to the snow season of the primaries, a lot of this will be forgotten. it doesn't amount to very much. everybody wants to talk about. - of course, you have to talk about it. in the great scheme of things it's not going to matter very much. >> did you ever have one of these "not your best nights"?

>> sure. >> what did you do afterwards? >> criticize myself. talk about what should have been, could have been. i do think the public, at large, i think they understand that moderators are doing the best they can. use to be these signs that said please don't shoot the piano player, he's doing the best he can. it's easy to jump on mistakes and lack of follow up and all the criticism that's been made. it's part of the political game. they're going to attack the press because a large part of their constituency likes it. that's what this is about. by in large, voters job is to separate bull shine from brass tax. by in large that's what the press does. when they do it it's easy to hang a sign around somebody's

neck there's a certain part of the public that will believe that. public at large understands. if you ask me on issue by issue where i stand i'm for clean air and water. i'm for strong national defense. i'm for tight money. if you think the question is too hard to hang a sign around someone with an unattractive label and make that the issue whether that have the politician answer the question then didn't answer the question. >> how do we make it less fun to play, less rewarding to play? >> i'm not sure. if you find the answer to that question call me collect.

if you're going to play at game at our near the top, one way or the other you're going to face the furnace and take the heat. let's take a deeper look at what happened in boulder on wednesday. he said one smart journalist saw the cnbc debate debacle coming. i'm also joined by cnn senior political analyst. you called out john harwood. do you believe he was out there to trap the candidates on stage? >> i think this should be been obvious to everybody. i'm shocked they chose someone. he is a reporter who has a sort

of liberal bias in his approach to thing. there's nothing a republican can do that's good. this is perhaps fine for a general debate where most of the voters identify as conservativ s conservatives, this is guy that doesn't understand he has the biases and he doesn't understand how conservatives think. >> do you agree? >> i think it's really unfair and it kind of misses the point what the problem was with the debate. they have been very revealing and very strong and kind of exploring. the debate was disjointed. it was chaotic.

i think the problem was much larger. the primary interaction is between the moderators and the candidates. to me it wasn't so much a bias one way or the other. kind of the moment to show what was wrong with this debate is a more extreme version of the problem. the candidates were having a pretty revealing conversation about taxes and one of the moderators say we have to mover on. we have a question about marco rubio as a young man in too much of a hurry. we need less structure. we need the debates to be organized around topics. let the candidates move in much of the discussion and bring in the moderators to mover it forward. this has to be revealing the differences between the candidates. i don't think that's the primary

sbr interaction. there's a broader problem. >> molly, who are the proper kinds of moderators you would have in mind. who would you want to see moderate debates? >> what's important is you have moderators who understand that a lot of the way these questions have been phrase, they take progress ifr asuive assumptions into their debates. it's sort of undeniable that there is that problem. >> how would we actually truly learn about these candidates, see them tested in the way they need to be tested before the general election before they are up against hillary clinton or bernie sanders or someone else?

how would that happen if rush limbaugh is plmoderating the debate? >> i don't think this would be that helpful. their concerns will be about people having support of subsidies. people supporting imminent domain. the conservative viewpoint will be different than the traditional media. it should be someone who understands conservatives. there's tons of people who are in news rooms around the country who could fulfill that test. >> ron, allow do you see this ending? do you believe there will be big changes or will there all boil over? >> there's a market in the republican primary for going after the media. i think candidates are going to do that. i don't know the answer. i think the candidates are legitimately frustrated that in

many ways they are not getting to explain the differences this their views. having moderators who are attuned to the nuances of conservative thing s a good thing. i do think the broader problem is that we're thinking these debates in the wrong way. they are fingsing more like an extended version of the sunday show. they should be about the candidates drawing out the distinctions with each other. whether we get there, i don't know. i know the hard questions that people don't want to hear asked this the hall are the ones you'll get if you're the general election nominee. >> i have to run. downwere here on friday night for the mets game, they're only win. will you come back to help the team tonight? >> it's a bit long of a commute but it was fun to there there. >> thank you for being here. appreciate it. >> thank you. coming up, reeling from the

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there's been so much debate over the performance and alleged bias in cnbc in this wednesday's republican showdown. we should talk about it in more depth. there's good questions whether the critiques are valid or a reliable tactic being used to control the way journalists ask

questions in the future? if that's true it wouldn't be the first time republicans have used this liberal media bias sword in journalism. >> most believe you're biassed against all of us. >> i can spot them to write their annual conservative in crisis stories. >> i think it goes without saying there's definitely a media bias. >> sometimes there's signs of conservative media bias and other biases like conflict bias or geographic bias. the question is what should journalist be doing about it. it is possible for the press to show solidarity on this issue.

i wanted you on the program because of of this tweet you said the media outlets should take a stand. is that possible? >> it's definitely possible. the question is it is probable. there's three things that come out of this. as you said is cnbc has been universally panned on this but everybody including people at cnbc. there's no question it could have be produced better and it would have made a better debate. all of us have biassed. the second thing, the candidates complaints on this. everybody loves to blame the

refs. who on that stage has been hurt by this? ted cruz hasn't been hurt. donald trump hasn't been hurt. the only person hurt by the debates is jeb bush and he hasn't complained once. he's been hurt by there. we are becoming a culture of tribes. in the course of that, as our founding fathers, george washington and john adams said, when we fall into factions and we fall into political parties, that's the danger. one of the only things that keeps us from that is a free and vigorous press. yes they can do something different and improve that. i'm sure all the networks saying we don't want to do it that way,

but the question is do we want to have a free press? >> do you believe there was a perception of liberal bias? did you hear it in the questions and sigh it in the comments and the tones? >> i did not. i saw a bias by conflict and a bias toward gotcha. i was very uncomfortable. they gave them a sword, to use the old nixon phrase. that's something fox news has made a whole network out that there's liberal bias. the questions were not followed up.

the mood in the hall turned angry. we're not the story. we really are not. you're not supposed to be grand standing. >> every moderator says i don't want to be the story the next day. that's where those moderators failed. sty with me for a minute. let's take a quick break and come back with more in a moment. ♪ is it the insightful strategies and analytical capabilities that make edward jones one of the biggest financial services firms in the country? or is it 13,000 financial advisors who take the time to say thank you? 'night jim. gonna be a while? i am liz got a little writing to do. ♪ it's why edward jones is the big company

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i'm going to dig deeper on this issue of all the upcoming debat debates. what do you think will happen after this debate? we know the fox debate in november and the rest still on. do you think this issue will end

up fading and the debates will go on as planned or will there be structural changes? >> it will probably be some structural changes. my guess is the nbc debate will be put back on with their tell between their legs and done in a way that the republicans are generally satisfied with. the fox business debate is coming up. it will unfold. it will probably be some changes but not fundamental changes. i want to go to something said earlier. there is a liberal bias in the press for a number of years. today the solution to it isn't let's create a conservative bias and let's create a liberal bias and divide everybody up and leave everybody else out in the middle. i hope the meeting tonight pursues not like how can we get the better press or moderators but arrive at a place to create a better forum to gets to a

conversation about could be stantive issues without name calling and candidate interviews. one person on your show said let's divide it up and have two. my solution would be have three. five candidates, three separate debates. it would be much more substantive. the problem is whoever has donald trump is going to get the higher ratings. that's what i think so many are pursuing is whoever has more eyeballs is where they want to be. >> let me go to this issue you brought up about media outlets uniting. should all news outlets be standing up if the notion of more debates. is that inappropriate and impossib impossible? >> the candidates are starting to speak for the united voice. it's not bad idea. we should stick up for the idea we should have spirited debates where you ask people about their positions and try to illuminate differences among them but you

don't, i think part of the problem is these candidates are tired of being asked what they think of donald trump. donald trump is negotiating this and rightfully so in some ways as if it's the apprentice. he's right in saying i brought you a lot of ratings. cnn has him on. it's not as if there's not conservative voices. we do need to stick up for journalism. i agree with what you're asking us. it's like i'm shocked gambling going on here. we have ten candidates on stage with the reality star in the center of it. we wonder why debates have devolved in this way.

the media and cnbc can be blamed for some of the things they ask. they should be faulted. the reality of what a reality star leading the polls has contributed to this. >> cnbc believes a few weeks from now we'll be talking about how their debate changed the race and not about the ugliness of the debate. we'll see if that's the case. thank you for being here this morning. >> thank you. what is the truth behind the new movie "truth." dan rather calls it the darkest time of his career. he'll join me next to tell me why.

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do you remember rather gate, as in dan rather? his scandal is back in the news 11 years after it happened thanks to this new movie titled "truth." he pursues new information about george w. bush's time in the national guard. the real life person had kunllated evidence of the bush family's political connections, helped him avoid vietnam and then he vanished for a year in the 19670s.

this was in the fall of 2004. so this was an explosive story, but it was also sloppy. critics seized on some of the key evidence calling it forgeries. four documents originally written by bush's national guard commanders. twice by a russian history tore january and a third by stone walling. rather says, yes, we made mistakes, but the new movie tells the truth. i sat down with him and tried to find out why. >> we reported the truth. we reported true stories, the actual story. we should be faulted, look, this was the darkest period of my professional career, because we were not perfect. but we got to the truth. we got to facts. and because we got to facts, facts such as yes, political influence got a young george w.

bush into the air national guard as a way of avoiding service in vietnam. that's a fact. two, once he got in, he disappeared for a year. nobody in the u.s. military disappears for a year. and number three, strangely enough, mysteriously, his military records disappear. the defense department is among the best in the world at keeping records. they were truths. they were uncomfortable truths for some people. they couldn't attack us on the facts, so they changed the subject very successfully. they changed it from the truths of the story to how we got to the story. we were vulnerable in the documents because the source changed the story. so we apologized for using the documents. we never apologized for the story. we never retracted the story. set the documents aside for a moment -- >> it's still unclear to this

day whether those were real or fake. >> even the "wall street journal" recently said that the documents that had been proven to be fraudulent, that is untrue. >> because we don't know for sure. >> no. well, i think we proved it beyond reasonable doubt. well, you didn't prove it beyond any doubt. that's a fair argument. this was the purpose of those who wanted to discredit the story, to change the conversations from the facts to how they arrived at the facts. >> been talking about how the fundamental story was accurate. that's caused a lot of mockery online. people saying, how could you possibly be standing by your story. you're saying they just don't know the facts, is that right? >> the facts speak to themselves. >> specifically where former president bush was in that lost

year in 1973 and 1973. >> and how he got into the national guard as a way of avoiding vietnam. the president nor anyone close around him, never been denied because it's undeniable. >> it's been rejected in broad terms. you're saying maybe they haven't explicitly denied the specific facts. >> that's right, they haven't. the boston globe did this story long before we got on the story. the white house power and bush operation managed to contain it with the boston globe. but they were able to contain it to the boston globe. when it got on television, they, being the white house and close supporters of george bush said wait a minute, now the whole nation as a whole is going to get this, so they had to attack it. they attacked where we were most

vulnerable in the source of the documents. >> so still in 2015, we don't know where the former president was in that lost year? >> no. and isn't that amazing? he's never answered the question of where he was during that period. nobody ever said they saw him doing his duties during that period. unitedhealthcare insurance company, go long. of course, how you plan is up to you. take healthcare. make sure you're covered for more than what just medicare pays... consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company... you might give this a try... the only medicare supplement plans that carry the aarp name, and the ones that millions of people trust year after year. plan well. enjoy life. go long.

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thanks for being here this morning. look me up on twitter and facebook. and i want to tell you about a very exciting launch tomorrow. a digital version of "reliable sources." it's a news letter you can subscribe to.

we'll be covering all the day's media news every day. you can sign up at cnnmoney.com. that's all for this edition of "reliable sources." state of the union starts right now. republican revolt. the candidates lash out. >> these nasty and ridiculous questions. >> the bias that exists in the american media today. >> the american people don't trust the media. >> and the party vows payback. then, the governator. >> i'll be back. >> arnold schwarzenegger may be replacing donald trump on the apprentice, but he's raising cash for another candidate. and who may surprise you. and, the reluctant speaker embraces his new role. >> we've been too timid for too long around here. >> as his predecessor explains why paul ryan finally took the job. >> he figured out that god has another plan in mind for him. >>