much. on the phone i want to bring in a man who own as restaurant right next to the radisson where this is ongoing, says he heard the attack. what have you heard and what has happened since that transpired? communications are not great. we have storm conditions here and obviously speaking to africa. when we get him back on, we will. to the panel. k christiane amanpour -- we know what's going on. evolving, at least ten gunman a terror situation. this is a deadly situation, they're going floor by floor, there are counterauthorities trying to deal with it. it's called a hostage situation, 140 guests at least, 30 employees as well. some u.n. employees have been extracted. so that's the situation on the ground. let's talk about why. tell us a little about the con in the case of when th-- contex

where this is happening and why. >> nobody knows but they are saying, islamists, quote/unquote, going floor to floor. there are three dead already. a hostage situation brings back the situation of one week ago that led to a slaughterhouse at bataclan and france, pro active pushing back al qaeda from 2013-14, a success there, and last year einvolved in a slightly smaller, more narrow special forces operation and they've been very successful. this hotel, we understand, is one where many foreign flight crews go, air france crews go, other crews go when overnighting and obviously foreigners at the hotel. so it could be revenge for this, or the second wave of different attacks in different places. >> one little bit of more favorable news in a horrible

situation, obviously. the early estimate of ten gunmen reduced. it may be two or three. nevertheless, there's chaos inside that hotel. now we have amin trie, own as restaurant. heard this as it began. amin, if you can hear me, what did you hear? take us through it. >> hi, chris. let's say that, some people have be been -- seen two terrorists, that went to the, in front of the hotel and the security there, then they gained access to the hotel. after that, they start -- they made some -- some inside deal. we don't know yet. really starting through there. around 8:00 we heard a huge explosion coming from the hotel. we don't know yet it was inside or outside the hotel.

later, the terrorists went to the roof of the hotel with the hostages. there were 170 hostages there. actually, now arm few of them have been released. as we talk now there is a police force on the hotel trying to, to get the hostages, and -- >> okay. amin, thank you very much. please, stay safe. we want to learn what's going on, obviously, but safety should are paramount. stay at a safe distance. you know these things. please check back with us if there are developments you are able to observe. again, safety is imperative. this involves the initial context, a group of insurgents go in, lock the place down.

they're going floor by floor, it's fluid, but in the situation like this, what are the countermeasures. >> this is a mumbai-style attack. right? in fact, many parallels. a number of gunmen taking over a hotel. we talked how european, u.s. officials worried about just that kind of attack for months. we saw that in effect on the streets of paris on friday. it a great way to grab attention, to kill a lot of people, and to hold their attention for some time. that's one thing to keep in mind. the other thing to keep in mind, terrorism is a competitive game. right? we don't know of any tie to isis to this. in fact, it's more likely to be al qaeda and the islamic maghreb. al qaeda conscience how isis has stolen the attention. right? it's stolen the world stage, and we've seen this before. one group attacks. the other still tries to establish its relevance. we've seen al sa rauhi to perk up from his cave in afghanistan, pakistan and say we're still

relevant and call on attacks themselves. so it's potentially competitive as well. >> what a perverse style of competition. take us through this a little more. >> as you were just saying it is very different groups that operate in mali, and what government sources tell me is that they believe ansar hadean could be behind this. took over the northern part of mali. this group was at the forefront of it, and its leader, eyad iagalley went in and pushed the groups back vowing to revenge and threatening french interests. now, he is an ally to the south of the country. you have to remember, mallsy a country split in two. there's the north in which the french operates and continues no the south where the siege is happening in bamako. and mali's ally is a man who is a very vocal preacher who very recently these last few weeks

called for attacks against french interests, and sources within the malian government believe these groups could be involved. these are very different groups. >> take us through the ropes a mali, a transit port into more hotbed areas, ralgeria. >> this is exactly why it happened. in the wake of the libyan revolution, all of these arms and men float across the border in mali. extremely poorest borders, hard to control and vast, and these groups came in, tremendous amounts of arms, huge amount of power and the malian army was overrun, why a push took place in bamako in 2012. they were no longer able to fend off the islamists and being massacred in northern mali that led to more chaos and indeed the taking of country by the islamist groups. >> in terms how to stop this situation, local forces are

assisted by u.n. forces. some type of u.n. meeting going on inside this hotel. the numbers, the procedures we're not sure. we do know the u.s. president in kuala lumpur has been briefed on the situation. can you take us through what is going on in this briefing? what are you being told? >> hi, chris. we haven't gotten a response what's going on from the white house. what they said was that the president was briefed while on this trip by his national security advisers susan rice and asked this national security team to keep him apprised of this situation. we expect to hear from him soon after a bilateral meeting with the malaysian prime minister. so he may address the situation then. what we've seen throughout this trip, which is supposed to be all about economics, his pivik to asia, but it has been darkly, darkly overshadowed by terrorist attacks and then tough questions about what to do next, and how to keep the american people safe, chris. >> okay.

all right, michelle, thank you very much. as you get information in terms of what the white house understands in this ongoing situation, please, let us know and i'll get back to you. but let's not forget where we are now. we are in paris. one week to the day since these horrific attacks that certainly served as a wake-up call to the world and the depth and breadth of the fight against isis and there is still a lot of ongoing activity. there are new developments that came as a function of this operation that took out the so-called planner of these france attacks. so let's bring in fred pleitgen monitoring developments. fred what do we see today? obviously not a good marker in time, one week now since one of the worst days in french history. what do we know? >> reporter: new developments in the case. cctv surveillance video that turned up from a subway station close to where one of the getaway cars were. the black fee @asset leon and the alleged mastermind of this

attack bp we know from there he then made his way back to that apartment and be also new information that we're getting from that as well, that apparently there's been a third body discovered inside that apartment, amale body and don't know who that body belongs to, no positive dna tests on that yet. they are also still saying they don't have positive dna tests for the female body but we believe it's his cousin but -- >> keeping it in paris, deceased? >> the third one added today, keeping it at three at this point. we have to keep in mind, we've been seeing this, it's difficult to operate there. still throughout the day yesterday they were controlled explosions going on. the french put out a warning to residents, a few explosions. don't worry. very difficult for them to work. right now three inside that apartment. >> to ivan watson in belgian. point of context. reluctance to call this guy a mastermind is not just the factor of heroization also that authorities feel you don't have to be a genius to plan something like what happened here and

there are many others that may be able to step into his role and do so quickly. another reason for minimizing his relevance, but that said, there's an eighth suspect from the paris attacks, an eighth terrorist on the run, they believe he was in belgian and that where our senior international correspondent is. what's the latest from there? >> reporter: that's right. i mean, authorities here and across europe are still looking for this fugitive suspect from the paris attacks. 26-year-old salah abdeslam, born here in belgium. his older brother blew himself up in the attacks and a third brother retained for questioning but released by investigators a couple days after the attacks. he has spoken out, again, to cnn now, after initially making a public appeal for his fugitive brother to turn himself in. he's given another statement. i'll read it now "if saleh is still alive i want to tell him

abaaoud is dead. he doesn't have to be afraid" nap is an older brother of the fugitive suspect of the paris attacks, saleh abdeslam, briefly questioned by french authorities after the paris attacks while apparently driving from paris towards belgium, he has since disappeared, though his vehicle was later found here in brussels by belgian authorities. chris? >> all right, ivan. stay with us for any developments as they go on. another added to the victim pile of what they did is this man's family. we're now in an impossible situation of justifying their connection to him. so we see that from france there's certainly a spiderweb situation being uncovered here, whether it's belgium what we heard about in germany, the arrests in turkey, what's now going on in mali, northwest africa and italy. there have been reports consistently since the attack

there's was coordination by italian officials to chase down those that fled and now situations that may have been originated in italy itself. for that, cnn deal la gallagher joining us live from rome. delia what is the situation there? >> reporter: well, chris, italy is on alert level two, their highest security level, outside of being under direct attack. the italian foreign minister said last night in they do have names of five potential terrorist suspects in italy, whom they are working to identify. that's the extent of what he will say on the matter at this time. the u.s. embassy here in rome issued a warning to u.s. citizens identifying three potential sites for terrorist attacks. st. peters basilica, the opera house in milan and the cathedral urges those to be vigilant around synagogues, hotels and

restaurants as well. the interior ministry, chris, says they've moved 1,000 military to guard sites around italy. the police say that they want to give a visible security presence here and throughout the country, and i'd can atoa that, in the vatican, around important sites we are seeing beefed up security. not necessarily new, chris. we saw this in september of last year and in january when there were isis videos specifically mentions rome as a potential target and of course french authorities saying firmly they have no credible information about potential attacks at this time, chris. >> delia gallagher, thank you very much. good news/bad news. good news, seeing rapidly increasing coordination among countries sharing information in the fight against terror. bad news, a lot of situations for them to do so. right now we are following breaking news out of mali, northwest africa in respect has been what is called a terrorist

attack there on a hotel in the capital. some unknown number of gunmen entering in, taking more than 160 guests and employees hostage. there are reports of deaths already. we have late-breaking details next. stay with cnn. hi i'm heather cox on location with the famous, big idaho potato truck. our truck? it's touring across america telling people about idaho potatoes. farmer: let's go boy. again this year the big idaho potato truck is traveling the country spreading the word about heart healthy idaho potatoes and making donations to local charities. excuse me miss, have you seen our truck? you just missed it. ahhh! aw man are you kiddin' me? you can't breathed. through your nose.

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people entered the hotel. it's one of the biggest hotel in the area with ak-47. they came and immediately they started shooting at people, before entering the hotel. we had three u.n. personnel inside the hotel amongst many other people, they extracted. what we are doing right now is that we are supporting the malian authorities on the side with our quick reaction forces. we also deployed emergency equipment and trucks with ambulances, too, and i can give you many more details, because you have to understand that the operation is currently happening as i speak. apparently the people entered

the compound of the hotel with diplomatic plates. that's what i can tell you. >> diplomatic plates in cars. explain what that means, olivier, and also the nature of this operation you're talking about. is this an intention to negotiate or is this just about a countersiege to take out who's in there and rescue as many as possible? take us through those two points. >> i can't tell you what the intention is. what i can tell su thyou is peo entering with ak-47 in the hotel, i'm not sure they are here to negotiate anything. regarding the diplomatic plates, you have many, many international organizations operating in bamako, and in mali, so that's just diplomatic

plates. a fake, or a stolen car, i don't have details on that. >> all right. just so we're clear. are you saying that the gunmen showed up in vehicles with diplomatic plates? >> yes, that's the latest information i got. yeah. >> all right. olivier, thank you. the communications aren't great. i want to know, is there any additional detail you can give on what they were saying as they entered? any context for that? >> i don't have the confirmation on this. i heard many stories, but i can't confirm anything so far. you have to understand, it's happening as we speak. >> all right. olivier, thank you very much. thank you very much. the communications aren't great but thank you so much for reaching out to us. let us know if you have nmore information so we can stay apprised, but, please, stay safe in doing so.

spokesperson for the u.n. mission in mali. that's what we know right now. it is active and ongoing. it a terror situation that is how it's being reported. two to three gunmen entering this hotel in the mali capital. obviously there with deadly intentions. people have lost their lives. there is an active operation to try to get others out and take out the gunmen. more as we get. now, help me christiane, while i was trying to listen, you were trying to explain what he was saying to me. the men showed up with diplomatic plates on their vehicles. >> that's what he's saying, basically, it's just this whole business of stolen identities and how these people, whether in paris or mali now are using stolen identities. he said and confirmed again when you asked him again, that these people came in with ak-47s in vehicles that were carrying diplomatic licenses, and he further explained that bamako is the center of a lot of diplomatic, even u.n. vehicles have special license plates. so there's a lot of that

opportunity, and obviously, he believes that they were stolen vehicles. they came in and so got through all of the checkpoints, of course. you know, just like these people with stolen passports have done through european borders, one of them at least committing this crime. that seems to be the news he was telling us as well as there's an operation under way to try to end this. >> this is a well-known, very powerful tactic we've seen in afghanistan, pakistan and elsewhere, stealing police uniforms, military uniforms so you get past, here in this case going under cover of diplomats. it's very powerful. we know security think is very high. it's a great way to get in. the other point i would make, you see police forming a cordon around the hotel. we know this from u.s. counterterrorism forces. the whole response has changed dramatically. >> that used to be a model. saw that a little buy the bataclan. >> that doesn't work, the understanding, because they're going to start killing.

we saw that in bataclan. >> i don't think they have any intention of negotiating. >> absolutely not. this new york police department trains its officers now, you get to the scene you go inside. don't wait for the tactical team or negotiate if you can because you know waiting sadly means more bodies. >> part of the analysis of what happened here, the reason i was asking, when the authorities, the assets going on-scene, there was some deliberation, some delay in terms of what to do at the bataclan as opposed to going in as you arrived. true? >> of course once they realized they were dealing with people whose intention was to massacre rather than hold people hostage, then the situation had to be made to go in, and the point about the stolen cars and identities have very important when talking about a part of bamako where all the government ministries are, controls are super tight. checkpoints all over the malian capital and in front of this particular hotel you have to go

through several security checks. your car, the people inside are check, properly check before anyone can get inside this hotel. obviously they had to find way in and the way was diplomatic plates and vehicles that could get through the checks unnoticed. >> here's the status. right now there's an ongoing described terror situation in mali, in the capital in a hotel. gunmen showed up in vehicles with diplomatic plates which may explain their ease of entry and ak-47s and laying siege to this hospital, inside at least 150 or upwards of that number between guests and employees. it has become deadly already. mali officials and their assets as well as u.n. assets are responding right now. it is an active operation. we have late-breaking details coming in as i speak. let's take a quick break. stay with cnn for more. ♪

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♪ sleep train [train horn] ♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ you're watching "new day." we are following breaking news right now. this, the one-week mark since the attacks here in paris, and there is another terror attack going on right now in mali.

that's west, northwest africa. at least three people are dead. it is an active situation. let's bring in cnn's david mckenzie live in johannesburg with the details. david? >> reporter: yes what we know, chris, around 7:00 in the morning local time, two or three gunmen according to the u.n. arrived at that hotel with diplomatic plates on their cars, and kalashnikov rifles. witnesses on the scene heard several rounds of gunfire and explosions, ongoing for some time. there's also sources telling us that a local and's international through the u.n. forces moved in at around, maybe two, to two and a half hours later, into the scene, and at least 20 or at least scores of people were able to flee that hotel. three u.n. officials have managed to escape. there are a multitude of nationalities there. this is a hotel, chris, popular with europeans, americans and

others going through mali, conducting business as well as expats in the country. key targets for terrorists. we don't know who they are but there's a history of terror history in mali and word from the u.s. embassy that u.s. nationals should hunker down, lay low, don't move outside and listen to media for updates that might be. chris? >> all right, david, and, again, there is supposed to be a good security environment within this capital. how did they get in? well, there are reports from the u.n. that these gunmen showed up in plates that are diplomatic on their vehicles. was that the way they avoided detection? in any event, they're in there now. there's an ongoing operation. let's get back to new york and mikaela with other headlines? more breaking news overnid. jonathan pollard, an american, spy for israel, released from a u.s. prison after spending 30 years behind bars. pollard was arrested in 1985, convicted of selling u.s.

intelligence secrets to israel. pollard, who is now 61 years of age will have to spend the next five years on parole and is barred from leaving the u.s. without permission. an american student is among three killed in the latest israeli/palestinian violence. israeli defense soisofficials s west bank attacker rammed them with a car. earlier thursday, in tel aviv, two israelis killed in a stabbing attack. the fbi isic taing a closer look at dozens of people they believe pose a terror threat following those attacks in paris. fbi director james comey says the concern is the potential for a copycat attack in the united states. law enforcement officials say there are no specific credible threats to be concerned about, however, at this time. well, the house defies the threat of a veto passing a bill to restrict the flow of syrian refugees in the united states. now the presidential contenders

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we're following breaking news. there's an ongoing terror situation in mali right now, in northwest africa. at least 160 people are inside that hotel. it is already turned deadly, and that takes us to another part of the world. remember, we're here in paris because of what happened here just a week ago. and yet there are all of these spider attacks going on, and different operations throughout europe, and the reverberations aren't just here, but also in the united states. this is increased the attention to the war against isis, to domestic safety, and to what we do with refugees specifically syrian refugees. this has become such a flash point in american politics. you have gop coming forward in the form of governors saying, we don't know who these people are. they cannot come in. that momentum matches the mood of the country. a recent poll says over 50% of americans are worried about

allowing syrian refugees into the country. the president is taking the other side of this. he is rallying democrats to his cause of supporting what he says is the soul of america in allowing in these people who are running for their lives from syria. however, not all democrats agree. the house just pass add bill wi -- passed a bill with democratic support, you have to close the program until you can guarantee the vetting. let's discuss the political, the policy implications of this. we have two of our best, cnn political analyst and presidential campaign correspondent for the "new york times," ms. maggie haberman and cnn political commentator and political anchor for new york one news, errol lewis. maggie, start with you. you can't say it's pure partisan bickering when the have the american people weighing in heavily as well. what is the state of play? >> an absolutely accurate assessment. a difficult blow for the president on this house bill about refugees. there were 47 house democrats

who voted with republicans, many who basically made clear they don't think this is politically worth it. you had one congressman say essentially, we have existing systeming that work better than what we're talking about here, and as you say, when the national mood is not in favor of what the president wants, that makes it very, very difficult. this is a moment in time, it may mot look this this six months from now, but right now there is a real fear in the country about what is going on. there is a real concern among americans that there's going to be an attack again here. there obviously was major one in 2001. that has not been one since, but that is very much royaling the political landscape and the way that people are talking about what otherwise in another scenario would be a refugee crisis where people would be welcomed, but that's not what's happening right now. >> errol lewis, we see the two top contenders on the gop side for now, dr. ben carson, donald trump, playing this to advantage. how so? >> well, they've been almost

competing to see who can say the most outrageous things. where you've got donald trump calling for, you know, registration of muslims and so forth. you've got ben carson also saying that we should not take any refugees in whatsoever that we should create some kind of a system for tracking them, comparing them to rabbit d-- rabid dogs and so forth. they're discover this when voters go to the polls starting in about 78 days. this is the way the conversation has gone. it's not going to be seen in retrospect as a great moment for either offer their campaigns. maggie pointedous, this could look very, very different just a few months from now, when we saturday see itting who's coming in and not hard-end fighters clutching ak-47s arriving at the airport, but it's grandmother, it's orphaned children, it's people who are sick, people who need medical care. i think the whole question is going to be different.

one suggestion i would have is that anybody who wants to demagogue on this issue should first be asked to find syria on a map, and show exactly what they do know about this. i think it's very, very little. >> well, look, people are always entitled to opinions, despite their basis, but, maggie, if we look at the political forensics of this, you have a lot of facts on the side of what errol is suggesting. the demographic and gender makeup what we know about the arrests of sear yn refugees in the united states and abroad, the complexion of isis in the united states. all of these things go in favor of giving refugees a shot especially giving the vetting they undergo, more than most other immigrant populations get and that case has not been made by the administration, in part empowering the resistance? >> that is absolutely true. democrats and aides yesterday said they did not find the sell

from the administration on this bill to be convincing. they didn't find it a way to give them political cover, going forward. they didn't find a way where they could sort of blauunt as you're seeing very lout criticism from donald trump and ben carson. let's be clear. this started with governors. you have governors in this race. governor chris cuomo of new jersey who sa jersey -- chris christie of new york, wouldn't admit children, orphans into the country. that is the tenure and you're not seeing pushback. it may cost them votes but right now it's not. right now there a real sentiment against the overwhelming sentiment, not the -- not the vast majority, certainly a majority, is trending in this direction, and so where the republican primary has been fought for the last nine moss, mo mo months going back to the

midterms, a lot of talk about immigration and terrorism. you saw it in 2014. donald trump blasting that message with a megaphone if not terrorism specifically suggesting illegal immigration is a security threat and this is some kind of evolution from that. >> the left isn't going to like this last point here, but here are the reality -- that the reason that this is going on in part is because there's a challenge of authority. republican governors saying they're not going to let people in their state has no basis in law. they can make it difficult, stop funding, depending on their contract with the federal government with respect to medicaid, but they don't have the legal authority but are taking it anyway because of distrust of the administration. vetting is in place, but people don't trust it, because they don't trust the government ability to vet. that's part of this as well and falls on the administration to make its case and flex its muscle differently than it has so far. maggie, thank you very much as always, errol lewis, appreciate the perspective.

here we are in paris, just one week since the horrible attacks and the concerns are ongoing. all of the police activity, it's good, but will it create a backlash, islam phobia? we'll take you through that just it's a important as any other part of the society how this society hamm healed after what happened. me way to say happy ho. switch to t-mobile now and get 4 lines with up to 6gb each, and no sharing. just $30 bucks a line at t-mobile. to folks out there whose diabetic nerve pain... shoots and burns its way into your day, i hear you. to everyone with this pain that makes ordinary tasks extraordinarily painful, i hear you. make sure your doctor hears you too! i hear you because i was there when my dad suffered with diabetic nerve pain. if you have diabetes and burning, shooting pain in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence!

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what's going on in france that doesn't get enough attention. give it now. a very large muslim community here in france, specifically in and around paris, and the relationship between the french and french muslims is real and relevant to what's going on from a terror perspective. feelings of phobia, muslim leaders feel they're being blamed with something they have nothing to do with. the community who looks for them for more of what they've done in terms of condemning terror. this is an important -- and a

collector for the muslim leadership against islamic phobia here in france. thanks for joining us. from your perspective what going on in france today with respect to the muslim community? >> right now we are sharing our feelings between deepened grief, outrage and now total scare. the government now is treating us as the enemy within instead of us victims of terrorism in this war against terrorism. as seim speaking to you, two raids terrorizing families the past two nights. one of them saw a 6-year-old child, receiving bullet fragments in her neck, and then the police walked away saying, sorry. wrong house. we have the police rushing the mosque, walking away without saying why they came in here first. we have over 100 people put under house arrest. again, because a certain emergency allows the government to act with such brutality

without justification. >> the justification, they were just attacked by people who said they were doing it in the name of islam. why they're looking in these communities, found them in a largely muslim enclave there. there is a reasonableness why they are looking in the muslim community? >> they should be looking in the fetters of our entire service and do you obviously think they can win a war by terrorizing everyday citizens? the very victims of terror? radicalization does not happen in our homes or mosques or schools. it's the government's job to look out for these criminals, where they are in circles and unfortunately i keep saying it over and over again, every suspect was identified. i saw yesterday one of suspects, she had nothing to do with islam. in pictures half naked and known for partying. >> what do you do when someone

says i am muslim, attacking the west or whoever in the name of islam, if they say that, they have to be believed as that, even if from your perspective as a muslim they are not muslim. do you understand the dynamic? they say they're muslim. >> okay. >> they are in and among muslims, the authorities believe they may get protection from the larger muslim community. what's the balance? >> which city are you from, sir? >> new york city. >> if i go to new york city and raid a bar and kill 40 people, i'm doing this in the name of france, is my claim legitimate? no, it's not. of course, muslims are being killed by ex-centrists all over the globe. >> more so, by islamists. 80% of victims are muslims and hitting us here in the west because we refuse any connection with them. the problem is, the government is raging its war against terror, i thought the war against terror was declared a war ago after the january

attacks. now declares a war on the muslim community at a whole. >> i understand why you're angry. you don't want to be blame d fo the error of a few. it isn't easy because this government is playing catch-up. what needs to happen to make it better for the large ef muslim community and find the bad guys hiding among you? >> the groups, they are blaming our foreign policy, first of all. second, started killing people at the bataclan concert hall, doing this as retribution for what your president is doing. muslims have nothing to do with this and using internal social problems as a false pretext saying you are persecuting muslims in france and therefore this is revenge. unfortunately major underlying issues leading to terror. we cannot win tearer by working towards the end results. look at the machine behind it. one of your famous men, he says

the measure of success is not whether you have a problem, whether you are not facing the same problem you had ten years ago. and now we are facing the same problem in the early 2000s and '80s and '90s. we are not addressing what led to radicalization. in one year the presidential election, president francois hollande preparing for next year and wants to put himself on a list, someone against terrorism, a tough guy. >> given the context what's happened it's giving them political traction, because they need to keep their people safe. to be clear and end this part of the conversation, you condemned what happened here. you say that is not muslim or islam and are against what happened as anyone else? >> sir, i just came back from prayers for a muslim victim and

why i'm late here and going back to a mosque to attend a prayer saying we have nothing to do with this. we can't do anymore than that. if the state fails to protect its citizens they cannot be minorities responsible for their failures. >> i know this is a frustrating situation and angering to you, but thank you for coming on to condemn what happened here and ask for more unity in france. we'll stay on this story. >> stay safe. >> all right. so this is a big part of what's going on here, and now there's another part of the battle about, well, how much can you do to stop terror? how far can you go? the government, should they have access to encrypted messages that allow terrorists to go dark? is there a privacy issue there? we know terrorists use this to speak now this privacy issue will come up specifically in the united states. an expert will tell us what's legal and what may change. stay with us. on my long-term control medicine, i talked to my doctor and found a missing piece

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bring in howard schmidt, cyber security, and laurie segall is here as well. laurie, new reporting isis is using some of these chat apps that are encrypted. things like telegram and maybe educate us on what that is, to communicate, and maybe perhaps even plot. we don't know they were direc y linked to paris but there was conversation what they were using. >> just hearing about telegram. an app that terror analysts tell me isis is broadcasting propaganda on and direct messages offering into encryption, making it very easy to do, and the last week telegram actually said they're taking down isis propaganda channels. i'll say this -- you know, after what happened with the snowden revelations on how much oversight the government had, you had a lot of companies, a lot of companies in silicon valley and around the world say we want to make the encryption easy for anyone to

use. we want to build tools that anyone can be able to communicate security will on. not necessarily a bad thing, encryption helps with bank accounts. encryption helps dissidents be able to communicate in a secure way, but it does good and oftentimes as we're seeing here, allows for secure communications for terrorists. >> however, then it becomes, howard, an issue of all sorts of privacy issues that come up and it's interesting to get your perspective, because you not only were the cyber czar for obama and bush, also microsoft. you've been on both sides of this debate over how we keep these systems secure for companies and regular citizens like ourselves, but also allow government to track and keep these terrorists from furthering their propaganda. >> yes, it's interesting. when i was a federal agent, i've really, really wanted to ban encryption, because it affected us and our ability to investigate a case. then i went to microsoft

thinking, boy, look at all the affects that it has on this if we allow it to happen. then you start adding in the issue about, okay. we're an international company. so another country will ask us, now, we want the keys to that, and we go on and on and on. and so then when you -- look at the whole end run, you don't do anything to hurt the country by helping the country. >> right. so bottom line is there, howard, i want your take on this. is there a solution to this, or is this going to be one of those endless tug-of-wars? >> well, i believe it's going to be an endless tug-of-war, because i look at the technical aspect, the policy aspect, the business aspect, and i can't think of any one, go do this, and this will fix the problem. there are a lot of assets on both sides that have valid, valid ways of doing things, but nothing is going to come in and solve the problem for everybody

and make everybody happy. >> howard, laurie, we'll pick up this conversation again, because it is not going away anytime soon. thanks for joining us. 7:00 here. we're following a whole lot of news. let's get right to it. to viewers in the united states and around the world, you are watching "new day" and we are following breaking news out of paris here. one week to the day of the paris attacks, another attack going on right now in mali. armed gunmen taking on and laying siege to a hotel there. at least 150, maybe more, people held inside of this radisson in mali's capital. we have global coverage with cnn david mckenzie live in johannesburg. david, the latest? >> reporter: well, the latest is in fact some good news, chris, in this ongoing hostage situation in the capital of mali. the state media is reporting that 80 people have been released or rescued by special

operations force, moving into that hotel. in the recent moments. there could be still at least 100 people, though, chris, in that hotel, in a hostage situation. i want to bring you new video of the security forces moving in at the scene. it's a combination of local forces from mali, special operations forces, as well as a u.n. peacekeeping force, heavily involved in this operation. earlier we learned from the u.n. that at least two or maybe three gunmen were in what they believe were diplomatic cars or cars with diplomatic plates. they arrived at around 7:00 a.m. local and then stormed the hotel. three people confirmed dead. two malian citizens, one french citizen, and it's hard not to say how international this hotel is in this country. it is the place for flight crews, for business people, for diplomats, going through mali, a key western and international asset. so far we know there are french,

chinese, indian citizens in that hotel and perhaps many others indeed. chris? >> all right, davids. there's a lot going on right now. this is new video we're showing you of the actual interior of the hotel. you see lots of mixed assets on the ground. we also have a journalist that is very close to the situation on the ground. so let's get to him right now. katerina hoje, a freelance journalist in mali what do you know? >> reporter: i am a couple of streets down from the hotel. all of the streets leading up to the hotel are, of course, blocked, or closed off by malian army soldiers and police. the situation is calm but tense. we haven't heard guns or explosions in a while. as far as i know, malian forces and possibly international forces, not necessarily the u.n. peacekeeping force, who have a presence in mali, have entered the hotel.

>> atv is reporting right now that 80 hostages have been released from the hotel, or, really, have been freed. this is not an ongoing negotiation. it is a military operation to take out these terror suspects who laid siege to this hotel. that is the latest going on right now. we were just hearing from katerina hoje, a journalist in mali saying there's a relative period of calm right now. hasn't heard any explosions in a long time. let's turn to the panel we have. cnn chief international correspondent christiane amanpour, cnn military analyst paul crookshank, terrorism analyst, rather and cnn senior national security correspondent jim sciutto. good news, seems to be calm there right now. hopefully there's a result. we are hearing reports from atv they got maybe 80 people out. >> that would be good news, but that means there's still dozens left in, and it's really a horrible situation, and we don't want to prejudge, because of

what happened here at bataclan and horrible terrorists with terrible aims, and one of the most important pieces of information we heard from the u.n. spokesman who you interviewed last hour was that they came in with kalashnikovs, two or three of them in a car that was stolen, obviously, diplomatic license plates which allowed them to do what they're doing. that is what we're hearing and what we know about those terrorists who came here to paris. they were stolen i.d.s. at least one, maybe more according to french authorities, who infiltrated refugees and who took advantage of the borders which be opened. no checks. no checks against interpol database and a big traffic and a big market of stolen i.d.s right now. >> in terms of who's fighting against the terrorist, we know mali forces, obviously, the u.n. and also france president, francois hollande speaking right now saying that french authorities are doing everything they can. they also have military presence there, as does the u.s. jim, in terms of the complexion

of this place, why would this be happening in mali? what is the situation there? >> well, you have a witches' brew of terror groups there. sometimes isis, some tied to al qaeda. i'm sure paul will detail behind this attack and this is a place france deployed ground troops. this debate about ground troops in iraq and syria, france felt the need to deploy ground troops two years ago there to fight islamist forces there and still have them. the u.s. has ten, not a big number, but they're training mali forces, because, again, it's a priority for the u.s. they know they need help on the ground there. >> to place a target. if you have the french, the u.s., it becomes a target. >> absolutely. >> tell us, who could these guys be, paul? >> well, you're looking at isis or you're looking at al qaeda alliance groups. on the isis side of the ledger, there was a major group, a powerful group in mali that in may of this year declared a legion to al baghdadi, head of isis, and movement in jihad in

west africa. it's possible this may be its coming out party, so to speak, in mali, a very powerful group over there. but you also on the al qaeda side of the ledger, you have the one-eyed algerian terrorist in the news a lot. americans tried to target him in libya in june, not clear whether he was killed. his group carried out a attack in the capital in mali in march, where they killed -- >> talking about inner its of this region of the world, talking about porous borders in europe. it's that exponentially worse in africa. mali on the border with algeria, a transit point from the morocco leading into libya. a lot of connectivity here. >> and after the arab spring, all of this mayhem and splintering of al qaeda and all of these franchises. there was al qaeda in the ma grib, aqim they call themselves and the french started threatening mali and the french

have interests there and started destroying cultural sites, really important things they were doing and killing people from the opposite, you know, ethnic groups and this and that. the french went in and pushed them out. >> so now, one thing here. let's shift our focus back to france for one moment. a big part of the dynamic here as we mark one week and how things get better here is going to have to deal with relations between the french and french muslims. we just had a moslem leader from a local mosque on who was angry, frustrated, saying you're not going to solve terror by terrorizing your muslim citizens. that is going to be met with a lot of controversy. people are going to say -- too bad. these people are muslims that did this. the community is the going to be targeted oonchtsy talked to the grand mosque chairman, so he is the chairman of the french islamic faith, as it's called here, the big council of it, and he was outraged at the actions of those terrorists and said -- >> so was this guy who was here. >> of course, but didn't give

namby pamby, woe is me. we don't do this. he said of course most muslims don't believe in this but said very sadly some of the young people are getting pooled further and further into what he called a fundamentalist direction. i asked him what about big marches from the muslim community? just bring them all out, show that it's not in our name, if those of your hash tags and this and that. he said i do that, and when i do that in this mosque in the center of paris and i'm the cheer here they say to me, you don't represent the mouz lims, the young. they think differently from you. he said, this is crucial, because french president francois hollande said syria is the world's biggest terrorist factory just like al qaeda when they plotted 9/11. these isis targets are giving themselves such kudos having land from which to plan and operate and this and that, the only thing that's going to change that, deny them the land. take the land away from them.

>> understood. jim, you wrote a book about this. this is something that falls on deaf ears especially in the united states, when muslims say, you know, if you don't want to address poverty and what's making people disaffected, that feeds terror also, the response is almost unanimously, don't you blame this on what's being done to you. this is what you're doing to everybody else. where do you see the balance? >> it's a difficult balance playing out in the presidential race. i interviewed bruno from the conservative party says hollande is too soft on the muslim community. talking about preventative detention of many of these 11,000 in this system basically a sort of warning system about potential jihadis and radicalized, in a political debate in the u.s. in the presidential race it is very much here, but you have a debate. listen, these are difficult decisions for governments to make. you want to be more alert, but you don't want to antagonize the communities. frankly, you need the community's help, and i'll give

an example. is the anger in those communities real against radical islam? the father of abdul hamid abaaoud called his son a psychopath. attempted to go to syria. alerted police here. he said, my son is trouble. >> the mother of one of the attackers, i can't control him anymore. >> they try to help. >> saying with some of the kids groomed to go over, we've had a story about a mer who tried to tell the police, my 16-year-old was allowed to cross the frontier and you did not stop him. a minor traveling alone. >> what do we also hear? go to clarissa ward and as you have been reporting, you hear something else, that in communities like this sometime there's is a reluctance to report, a feeling of isolation, there is a question of identity. what is your take on this issue? >> reporter: well, i would say two things, chris. first of all, this is not a lot of trust and communication going on between communities like this and the french authorities.

and there is also a sense when you live in a neighborhood like this that you want to stay out of trouble. that you want to keep your head below the power pit and stay below radar. we interviewed a woman who lived in that building where abaaoud was living and she said, i asked her, did you not notice him? did you notice this other woman, his cousin? and she said to me, listen, in this kind of a neighborhood you just want to keep your head down and mind your own business. that's exactly why rougher neighborhoods like this are much more, they're easy prey for people like abaaoud, they know relatively speaking it's easy to hunker down here and far less likely people are going to report on them than say, if they were staying in some apartment on the shauns aliel leeze. and this is absolutely a reality here in france.

>> clarissa, thank you very much. go to belgium, also a flashpoint here much of the planning, much of the activity and membership of what happened here in paris came in some way out of belgium. we have senior international correspondent ivan watson there. ivan, you've been reporting about this. why does belgium have such a robust, radical environment? and the question of poverty. the question of services, of education comes up, but people don't want to hear it. they say it's jihad, not poverty. what's your take? >> reporter: i think that there's clearly been, and we've sensed this in our discussions in some of the neighborhoods that have tended to draw a lot of recruits to isis, that there is a sector of society here, very frustrated, very alienated by what they see. again, this is what people have told me. as western governments bombing muslim countries for years. they see that as a great injustice, and there was even a woman who spoke to us yesterday and said, you guys keep

attacking islam. you guys keep attacking muslims. i feel sad that this abaaoud guy died because he was fighting to defend islam. when you have that sentiment on the ground in communities, you can see why that would lead in the end to young people becoming radicalized, and convincing themselves that violence is a way forward. of course, there are voices on the other side of the debate here from within the muslim community that denounce people like isis and say that they're awful for everybody in humanity. again, that gets back to where some of the support comes from, and why a little country like belgium would be per capita the biggest contributor to the ranks of isis in western europe, with an estimated 500 young people from belgium who have gone and joined groups like isis in syria. chris? >> and ivan watson, thank you and christiane, button it us. you hear this, it leads to one

conclusion? >> the conclusion is, these people who go over to join isis are not religious people, these are not muslims they are psychopaths and belong to a sect. what many people, muslim leaders and others are starting to say. a death cult. it is a kind of cult and many of these people are very troubled and even their own families calling them sociopaths, psychopaths, like abaaoud's family. of course it's not the muslim community, but it is those who hijacked the book for their own gang-land, let's wave clikalash around, and led by charismatic people who have global totalitarian ambitions that is abu bag rabb bhdadbaghdadie. >> we have to report both sides

even though people don't often want to hear it. back to new york. other head lynlines. mikaela. jonathan pollard, an american who spied for israel, released from a u.s. prison after 30 years. arrested in 1985 convicted of selling u.s. intelligence secrets to israel. now 61. he will have to spend the next five years on parole and is barred from leaving the u.s. without permission. an american student among three killed in the latest israeli/palestinian violence. israeli officials say a west bank attacker shot at a group then rammed them with his car killing 18-year-old ezra schwartz from boston and two others. earlier thursday, in tel aviv, two israelis were killed in a stabbing attack. the president of the minneapolis police union has strong defense for one of the officers who shot and killed jamar clark sunday. the union and officer's lawyer say clark had control of one of the officer's guns during the

fatal scuffle sunday leading to two days of protests claiming he was handcuffed when shot. demanding release of video from the area. officials say they won't be released until the investigation is over. house lawmakers voting to stop syrian refugees from getting into the u.s. without much tougher screening. ahead, we'll speak to a congressman who sponsored the bill to find out what he wants to see happen. i know how it is. you're all set to book a flight using your airline credit card miles. and surprise! those seats sometimes cost a ridiculous number of miles, making it really hard to book the flight you want. luckily, there's a better way... with the capital one venture card. with venture, you'll earn unlimited double miles on every purchase, every day. and when you're ready to travel, just book the flight you want, on any airline, then use your miles to cover the cost. now you're getting somewhere. what's in your wallet?

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new developments here in paris. you've heard about the operation that took out the alleged planner of the attacks here a week ago today. now you can see it. here is cell phone video of the actual operation that involves a female suicide bomber detonating herself. here it. here it is. [ explosion ]

>> now, obviously, that explosion, the matter coming out of that window, that was someone detonating their suicide belt. this shot by a local neighbor on her cell phone, that was the situation of the operation. that was near the beginning. it would go on for almost seven hours. 5,000 rounds were dumped in there by the french forces. the reason they it was that they are telling us that this was no ordinary group of bad guys in this building. this was a team with military training that wanted to exit these apartments and actively engage the military in close proximity, one, because they felt they had equal tactics and training which may be the case because they are going abroad and getting military training and secondarily, because several of them had the suicide belts, giving them the ability to blow themselves up and take out large numbers of the french forces which is why this, one of the

reasons it took so long was that the french force had divided. they kept half s.w.a.t. assets back because they were afraid of encountering this suicide belt obviously. they didn't just want to lose men and women in this assault because of proximity. that's what was going on, the latest information in terms of insight into it. let's discuss. the international affairs editor is with us and from the join chiefs of staff with us as well. thank you both for being here. sedrick, tactically for these commandos, you've helped me understand it, why i'm able to report it, this is a new threat. bad guys who do not fear your capabilities who believe they have equal training want to take you on in proximity. if it doesn't go well, kill themselves and take you with them. >> right, because they don't care whether or not they die. the dig difference between their philosophy and the philosophy of police and law enforcement officers engaging them. >> even five years ago we didn't

hear about terrorists wanting to come out into the open and take you on man to man? >> very different. no. in the past you had people afraid of are counterterrorism forces. counterterrorism forces who basically had the corner on those tactics. now, these groups have studied the tactics of counterterrorism forces, they are adopting countertactics and what you see here is the actual operational use of those countertactics, going through detonatingal themselves in a way never done before, confronting like you said, chris, one on one. because they're able to do that it creates a dimension of change in the whole counterterrorism arena. the tactics around the world for counterterrorism have to evolve when they deal with something like this. >> an obvious change. no negotiation. if they take hostages like we're following out of mali, no more talking to them. the assault is immediate. first assets on the scene go right in. something else i'm hearing from

investigators i want your take on. will you keep this pace up under the state of emergency? the guy slowed me down. remember, when we burn the bushes, the snakes run. that creates waves of issues for us. accelerated timing of attacks. you know, more counteractivity as well as beneficial activity and intelligence. help me understand that. >> what's basically happening is the operational tempo is being sped up here. both sides are reacting to each other, and in the course of conflicts like this, just like you would have in a standard con flicks, but here it's exacerbated because it can happen anywhere. you're having a different style. used to be like you said you went into a negotiation phase with almost any hostage situation, doesn't happen anymore, because the hostage-takers know that that's what the tactic is, and they've decided, we don't even want to negotiate. there's no reason to talk to each other. we are here for our mission, our purpose, and we are going to go in and we're just going to take out as many people as we can. why we saw the disaster here in

paris. >> melissa bell, two aspects pr you. first, state of emergency, your senate voting on it today. it's presumed parliament will get president hollande the authorities he wants. it would be rare in french history, but circumstances like a week ago, rare as well and not wanting to be repeated. is there a chance that french society when it sees that one of the outcomes of this increased police activity is, perhaps, potentially, more attacks, because it is forcing the hand of these cells that fear detection, do you think there could be pushback because of that? >> i think at the moment the government is benefiting from huge popular support for what it's doing. there are these questions about whether he's going too far, because there is extended state of emergency you talk about and a new legislation prepared by the french government which goes further. stripping binationals, for instance, of their french nagsty a naty. for now, the french government

has 94% of french people in the latest poll support what the french government is doing. that is strong, a strong response to this getting a grip on the situation and making sure it can't happen again and extension of powers. the fear from the other side is that the government's going to take this support and cross-party consensus, it enjoys the moment to push more perhaps more than is should. the fourth piece of legislation on terror in the last three years in paris, france has since the past attacks installed some of the strongest internet surveillance legislation there is. extraordinary powers already they've given themselves since january and those say perhaps what we need are not more laws, but more people keeping an eye on these terrorists and so on. also one of the things francois hollande will do. >> equally at important, part of that 6%, assuming the 94% acceptance rate, muslims feeling unfairly targeted because of this. just had a local leader, those

guys are not muslims who did this in the name of islam. they kill muslims more than anyone. you will not fight terror terrorizing citizens talking about muslims focus of the operations. where's the balance? >> hard to find that balance and something that muslims are at pains to express to make themselves heard, moderate muslims, that is, here in france. in france you have muslim's largest community. a big issue for france and they want to feel not being stigmatized, people aren't confusing things after things that happened, and a lot of leaders urged and going out saying this has nothing to do with us and important to keep the issues separate in people's minds. for now, francois able to get through what he wants. people are scared. what add week ago. the extraordinary raid mentioned wednesday and, of course, yes, they caught them, when you consider what the forces came up against an talking a moment ago about the vilolence of the sieg,

and elite special french forces went in and afterwards we heard from the french prosecutor they encountered violence they'd never witnessed before. people around france are watching thinking, this is at home. this is in the suburbs of paris, and you had this, the man in charge, abaaoud, killed that morning on french soil, captured, we've learned today, a few moments after the enclave of the attacks on cctv walking around the metro as if there weren't an arrest warrant out for him. there's a lot more fear than there is concern for civil liberties. >> we'll see how it progresses. >> for now the curse son that side of things. >> thank you very much. we're going to take a break. remember, we are following news out of paris of this siege of a hotel in mali. at one point there were 150-plus people inside. many have been released. it did turn deadly. there's late-breaking details. stay with cnn. people don't have to think about

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we're live here in paris.

sirens in the background. not unfamiliar a week after the horrible attacks here in paris. but we are following breaking news right now out of mali. a terrorist situation there, an attack on a hotel, a siege that at one point had at many as 160 people held captive inside. it is an ongoing operation. it has turned deadly. for the latest, david mckenzie in johannesburg. david? >> reporter: well, chris, it's a rapidly developing situation, and we have the latest info from state tv that 80 people have in fact been freed by special operations forces who were being held, or in that hotel, at least, taken by two, perhaps three gunmen, in an early morning raid. also information that 12 members of air france have been taken or are in a safe place. also good news. air france is cancelling its flights to bamako, a major strain on their country. new video showing the aftermath

of the initial attack on that hotel. two, perhaps, three gunmen in what we believe according to the u.n. diplomatic cars, or cars with diplomatic plates with kalashnikov rifles. two confirmed dead. one french system. seems the special operations team is working door to door, floor to floor, to try to get people to safety and to get to the two, maybe three, terrorists holed up in the hotel. the hotel is popular for nationals, many different nationalities in the hotel right now. asking people to hold fast. france's president, francois hollande weighed in saying "terrorists want to work their barbaric presence on all sites where they can kill, shoot and massacre." asking french citizens to move to the french embassy for

safety. chris? >> david, thank you very much. keep us apprised of any developments and the big headline, 80 freed. that means there may be still an equal number inside. we'll stay on that story. let's discuss in context what's going on here and who these attacker, may be. we have senior international correspondent christiane all amanpo amanpour, and jim sciutto. paul, start with you. who might these sayre rifts be. a lot of places that are bad guy operations. what do you think? >> could be isis. a group, powerful group in mali, pledge allegiance to baghdadi in may, this may be their coming out party in mali. there's been a lot of concern about this group. there's a gathering insurgency in mali, a lot of jihadi activity in the northeast of country, they've been targeting u.n. forces, the african-led u.n. forces over there, but it could also be al qaeda-linked groups.

you look to an agerian terrorist one-eyed guy who american was trying to target in libya in the summer and not clear whether they got him. the same group responsible for the hostage siege in southern algeria, in a facility in 2013, also foreign attack in the capital where they killed a french and belgium at a restaurant in the capital in march. it could be them as well, and could also be a group which is a powerful indigenous group that last month the leader of a group affiliated to al qaeda said they would launch renewed strikes against french national interests. >> a fact to give to you, put in my ear, not just vehicles with diplomatic plates, but someone who just got out of the hotel said she heard who she believed were the attackers speaking in english. what would that mean? >> a stunning development. you know -- >> reuters is reporting that. >> potentially either africans

who had some knowledge of english, but the fact they would be speaking english together suggests maybe anglo in some way. westerners have been trying to join these groups in the region. remember that attack on the gas facility, there were canadians involved. westerners on the side of the terrorists involved in that attack. >> some part of the world, jim sciutto, doesn't mean you are from that part of the world, in terms of are joining one of these terror teams? >> no question. one thing we know about all of these groups, they're very international and have an ability to attract western recruits. we certainly see that with isis. i would fwheet we're ssay what the lobby, saw them, the new react terror tactic, get in early. you don't wait, negotiating, set up a cordon, you know these groups kill first and negotiate later if they negotiate at all. that's important. the second thing i would say is

mali special forces involved, the u.s. special forces have been training mali special forces for a number of years now. there are 26 u.s. troops in mali. i mention that, it shows the issue has been on the radar screen of the u.s. and western governments for some time. >> why mali? christiane, talk about this place and why it would get this kind of attention? >> well, in terms of this particular attack, we don't really know, but in terms of that number of u.s. special forces, that number of splintering islamist groups and about 1,000 french forces who are remaining there after their -- quite lengthy, it started two years ago -- attempt, and successful attempt to push out what they called then al qaeda, aqim based in africa. at the time was considered one of these other affiliate offchutes of al qaeda. now spreading boo al qaeda, et cetera. it's long been an area where, you know, in the post-arab spring craziness and sort of failed states and borders that

are not manned, gathered in that area as well. >> take a quick break to gather more reporting, and if you need to figure out, why mali? not a name you hear often. look at it on a map. it's an obvious transit point from morocco into algeria, libya getting into north africa. a lot of hot spots can get you there going through this place, and that's exactly how it's been used. stay with cnn. we'll have late-breaking details right after the break. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for her she's agreed to give it up. that's today? we'll be with her all day to see how it goes. after the deliveries, i was ok. now the ciabatta is done and the pain is starting again. more pills? seriously? seriously. all these stops to take more pills can be a pain. can i get my aleve back? for my pain, i want my aleve. get all day minor arthritis pain relief with an easy open cap.

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all right. you know why we're in paris. you know what happened a week ago today. rocked french society. rocked the world, frankly, as a

wake-up call about the depth and breadth about the war against isis. reverberations around europe and center the united states. a major kroefrconfrontation whao about isis and syrian refugees, personification of the risk for americans over 53% who say they shouldn't be allowed to enter country. certainlypluralitiy of governors saying the same. let's have this discussion. mike rodgers, commentator and former chair of the house intelligence committee, mike, you know this situation very well. you've served as a mentor for me and others on it. let's have the discussion. you make the points of fact and policy that you believe encouraged this position of keeping the refugees out, and i'll give what are the pushback points on that, ignore these sirens going by now. part of the new normal in and

around paris. police van going by, use sirens often, does not mean anything urgent in particular. mike, please, go ahead. what's the case? >> a couple of things, chris. first of all, you have to take race and religion out it. i think the president did a disservice trying to put in race and religion, into this debate. you know, a few years ago it was the, that we had some very serious national security concerns about the porous border in the south. some 200,000, they would call them in the department other than mexicans were coming across that border, and any talk trying to say is there a way to improve on that, you just don't like people of color. that's ridiculous. this is a national security issue. we're finding that out with the syrians trying to use our southern border to get in. same with this program. >> mike, take it point by point. >> you have the ability to check data bases in eastern syria and western iraq and other places. you don't have that. so you need to van honest debate about it. they don't have access to that information about those

individuals, and the process of which they go through doesn't have access to that information either. so you're taking a bit of a risk, and then you have this other problem, chris, with people, we know that they've said they're going to infiltrate these syrian refugee populations and they have successfully done that. so you ought to step back, work with the governors about a process that says, all right. we have concerns. we don't have the resources to police the problem that happens. how do we do this in a better way? the president did do that. he just said, well, you don't like people of color, therefore, i'm right, you're wrong. that's the wrong way to approach this and we'll never get to a common sense answer if we continue to have this fight. >> all right. okay. mike, you put a lot out there. give you the points of push bba and you answer them in some order. one, syrians trying to attack the border. one group of guys investigated from honduras, not a flood. in terms of what we know about syrian refugees, you know the

facts and breakdown, it's largely male, female, 50/50, not a warrior class we're letting in. almost no arrests in any relevant context of seyrian refugees. fear for republican governors. legally, our governor has not a scratch of right to say they won't take a refugee. it's a federal situation. maybe if they negotiated a right or privilege with medicaid with the frod government, funding leverage but can't say, no ultimately, should be negotiated. how do you justify shunning a group of people without a basis with them as threat? maybe this last attack in paris went through a refugee route as a fake syrian, maybe one. we don't even have that substantiated yet.

where's the threat? >> either all in or all out, it's fearmongering. it's not. governors have a point. can you verify that these people don't have these problems? by the way, we think, you know, the numbers are in the thousands that they think have infiltrated into europe. thousands. so -- intelligence shows that. others show us that. the fbi director came out and said, no, we can't guarantee that these folks aren't trying to use this system to infiltr e infiltrate. >> if you want to scare them -- >> here's the problem. the president created this problem. >> go ahead. >> you're either with me or some kind of bigot or racist. that is so non-productive. why don't you bring thez goveos governors in, go through a process. if they need extra help on security, offer it. he looks for this to be divisive and leaves the governors no better place to go and makes everybody look bad. i think there's a way to go through this. >> look, no question -- >> they cannot. this is really important. they cannot verify that those folks have not been infiltrated,

because the intelligence services and law enforcement know that they have in the past. that's the problem. even the kentucky case where the iraqis got in and were collecting weapons and looking to do terrorist acts as a result a few years ago. >> right. >> with the refugee iraqi refugee program. so we know it has happened. not a notion that it's never happened. it has happened. that's what the governors are basing their decisions on, i think. >> it's happened with iraqis. nerve irwith syrians. taking in syrians for years. as you know, mike. you know all this. i don't mean to condescend, you've taught me much of this. it's happened with iraqis. it has not happened with syrians and certainly president obama would take exception how you're framing his perception, but that's for him to defend. if you want to scare people about this, if that's what's going on here and the syrians are scary because we can't vet them completely at comey said, one, talking about proving non-existence of facts. he's saying, well, not making a

mark on the system i can't tell there's anything wrong with them pap presumption, if there's no mark there still may be something wrong with them and compare it with the vetting of every other immigrant. they of any other immigrant population. these refugees go through layers of vetting no other part of the population undergoes. and don't you think that should be part of the calculus. >> it should be. and i don't think anybody is saying it is not. >> but it isn't. >> you are saying no refugee has been infiltrated. certainly to the united states, right, at least that we know of. but they have in other places, including europe. that is the problem. so we all have to argue about the same facts. they have infiltrated refugee population. they have using all of their systems to infiltrate and then by the way top out of that system. they can get here under one system by fake passports, fake ids. you can get on the deep web

today and buy syrian international driver's license, syrian driver's license, greek passports, greek driver's license. it is so readily available. and by the way, here is the scary part and i think why people are a little nervous about the security not. not who they are or what their religion is. it is the fact that we have millions of documents, especially passport documents and travel documents that have gone missing. millions over time. so people worry about that. that's why you're finding passports show up where they shouldn't. and so you have this problem. maybe the we take our energy instead of trying to fight with somebody is somebody being mean. this is where compassion meets reality and yes we should try to help. first of all with we should have done something in syria and still should do something in syria. that is what's causing the refugee population.

inaction there is causing this problem here. so let's deal with that and then try to deal with this security problem, chris, where we know that they have infiltrated refugee streams and are telling us they are going to do more. that is the problem. >> mike rogers, thank you for laying out that part of the case. appreciate the perspective as always. we're going to take a quick break. we are following a emergency situation in mali right now. gunmen took control of a hotel. 160 people or more are with your inside. maybe 80 have been freed but that means 80 may still be inside. we have details. stay with cnn. our truck? it's touring across america telling people about idaho potatoes. farmer: let's go boy. again this year the big idaho potato truck is traveling the country spreading the word about heart healthy idaho potatoes and making donations to local charities. excuse me miss, have you seen our truck? you just missed it.

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we're watching a standoff unfolding at this hour with dozens of hostages in mali, leisure than a week after a night of week of terror this paris. seems we've been hearing stories from people who survived those attacks, including some who made it out live by playing dead. there are schools of thought of other ways to survive. and we agree we are not inviting this in. we tick take no relish in having to discuss this but it is a bit of a new reality a bit of a new world order. the u.k. national counterterrorism office released some guidelines. and i want to pull them up. they might be helpful in a situation like this. >> and while this may seem scary this is a great transformation of the homeland security apparatus.

we used to say we got this, we'll take care of this. and now everyone is realized we have to engage the communities and public and parents and others about what they can do to -- >> they are part of it. >> and you have grip. you feel empowered rather than sitting there watching cnn all day. oh my god the world is on fire. >> first of all. identify the safest route and escape if you can. run is the first thing. if you can't run, then hide. finally find a secure hiding place. call the police, give them as much information as possible. that is seeming as though that is a lot for a panicked brain to consider. >> well it is. but, you know, i know there was a debate with ben carson and others like would you take on the terrorists and whatever -- exactly. this is what i tell my kids. in an active shooting case, run. and then guess what? run faster. there are no heros here. and what we learned after columbine, sometimes running is better. you don't want to just stay put

because that actually becomes the target. if you can't run then you hunker down, bunker down. and then in the worst case scenario, if you have no other option then you engage. you want to preblgt your own life and that is the most important thing and protect the lives of those around you. >> a point they make in this guide is encourage others to come with you. because not all of us react the same way in an emergency. some might be inspired to move. and others might freeze. >> right. and on the response side, we are moving. we talk about

also squlegermany and now italy. the fbi giving italy a warning about five suspects who could be plotting an attack there. the u.s. embassy are now -- after a conquest of rome. we have cnn's delia gallagher. what do you know? >> a level two alert. that is the highest security level they can do outside of an attack actually happening. nonetheless the italian authorities are stressing they don't have a credible threat of an attack planned at this time

in italy. however as you mentioned the u.s. embassy yesterday issued a warning, mentionediing three possible sites of terrorist attacks. st. peter's basilica and the maine catholic cathedral there. the interior saying they have added 1,000 military to some of these important sites in rome and around the country. and the foreign minister adding as you mentioned that they have names now of five potential terror suspects in italy whom they are attempting they say to identify. chris. >> all right delia. thank you very much. as we keep saying with everyone in these developing situations. if you hear of new information please get in my ear and aisle come back to you. back to new york and michaela. >> we need to give you a few seconds to catch your breath. aisle cover some head lines for

you while you do that. jonathan pollard an american who spied for israel is a free man. he's been released from u.s. prison after his conviction for selling us intelligence secrets israel. he'll spend the next five years on parole and barred from leaving the u.s. without permission. three kids are in custody this morning accused of gunning down a police officer in california. 29-year-old officer ricardo galvez was sitting in his personal car when he was shot. they believe the suspects wanted to rob him and didn't realize he was a police officer. he was a marine veteran who served in iraq. the president of the minneapolis police union defending his officers. they say clark at control of one of the officers guns during the fatal scuffle.

his death led to days of the protests. protesters demanding release of video from the area. officials saying however that will not be released inial the investigation is complete. we're staying on top of the deadly standoff in mali bringing you any updates. but also house lawmakers are saying refugees are not welcome here without tougher screening. we're going to speak with one of the nearly fifty democrats who joined the republican house passing that bill. we'll do that next. the future belongs to the fast. and to help you accelerate, we've created a new company... one totally focused on what's next for your business. the true partnership where people,technology and ideas push everyone forward.

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lot of developments to tell you about. one in particular. the house of representatives passing a measure to suspend the flow of refugees coming to the u.s. from war torn nation, notably syria. following revelations that at least one terrorist in the paris attacks did use refugee paths. joining us now congresswoman. surprised to see you here but i know you are here to make support and change. take me through the thinking on what you want to do. >> thanks chris. it is important to be here to join the people of france and people here in france to show our solidarity. after i leave you here i'm going to go and visit one of the

memorial sites to pay our respects. i brought flowers from my constituents in hawaii to offer there. but really the focus has to be on defeating our enemy. defeating isis. and one of the biggest problems in the way of that right now is this illegal counterproductive war to over throw the syrian government of assad. >> illegal because? >> it is illegal because congress has not declared war. it has not authorized a war to over throw the syrian government of assad. and it is counterproductive because it works our to help our enemy achieve their objective to take over syria and beyond. and presents a greater humanitarian crisis and huge threat not only to the region but to the world. just yesterday before we left congress we introduced a bipartisan bill that would defund the u.s. effort to overthrow the syrian government of assad. >> does this mean that you are not against assad?

that you don't think he needs to be removed? >> that is beside the point. first of all no, i don't think assad should be removed. and here is why. if he's removed and overthrown, isis, al qaeda, al nusra the islamic extremists will walk in and be an even greater threat and it will be even stronger and it will repeat the same mistakes of the past we've seen in overthrowing a sectarian dictate ner iraq. of saddam hue sab. and overthrowing one in libya in gaddafi. and now we're pointing to do the same thing in syria. >> the pushback is the assad is a despit who is taking his own people. >> people said the same thing about saddam huson. the same thing about gaddafi. the results of those regime nation and following nation building have been absolute -- not only failures but actually worked to strengthen our enemy.

and that is why i feel it is so important for us to not repeat that same mistake again and focus on defeating our enemies. >> focus resources on al qaeda and isis and these other islamicic extremist groups. >> and whether do you say to the syrian refugees running for their lives but just as many from assad's regime of obviously oppression on his own people. >> the first and most humane thing we can do for them is stop this war to overthrow the syrian government of assad. because this is what is causing so much of the carjanage and so much of what's causing people to want to leave syria and is secondly the terror isis is causing there in the region. we cannot defeat isis unless we first stop this illegal counterproductive war dp -- >> you don't think you can do both. >> we can't do both.

you can't defeat your enemy if you are strengthening at the same time. >> why are you strengthening isis. >> because you are by pouring dollars and resources and effort into this mission of overthrowing assad, you are working directly in concert with and helping isis, al nusra, these islamic extremist groups trying to over throw the government so they can take over all of syria so they can continue to perpetrate the horrific activities they have been. >> you're splitting from the party. you're splitting from the party. >> i serve the people of hawaii and it is my duty and responsibility to make sure that we do not. i'm a service member. i'm a veteran. and i hear from so many of my fellow soldiers and those who i've served with how concerned they are that we repeat these same mistakes of the past. we have so much at stake here that extends far beyond

politics, partisan and otherwise. and why it is so important for us as a country and the threat that it poses to us and the world that we defeat our enemy and folks our resources in doing that and not get distracted by these regime change, nation building missions. >> it would be an interesting political play to see how this comes it o. thank you for your service and thank you for showing the american face here in a time of need for the french people. >> thank you very much. >> i have news that will be interest to you as well. u.s. special forces are now involved in mali helping with rescue and extraction there. we're going to take a break. when we come back, we'll give you the latest developments of on an going terror siege in mali. opportunity is everything you make of it. this winter, take advantage of our season's best offers on the latest generation of cadillacs. the 2016 cadillac srx.

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cnn has just confirmed u.s. special forces are now assisting in rescue efforts to free dozens of hostages from a hotel in mali's capital. at least three are dead. gunmen stormed a radisson hotel. they are armed with ak-47s and may have entered with ease

because they are in cars with diplomatic plates. we have david mckenzie in johannesburg. what do you know? >> reporter: as you say the latest is that u.s. assets have been removing americans to safety. whether they are directly involved in that attack or just americans in mali, it is unclear at this time. but certainly ratchets up the tension here. there's been around 80 people released according to state tv from that hostage drama unfolding in the capital of mali in recent hours. two, perhaps three gunmen starmd the hotel. they were in cars with diplomatic plates or diplomatic cars of some kind. they were using kalashnikovs firing their way into the hotel and then corralling guests and staff. there might be at least 100 people still there. we don't know exactly how many. but many different nationalities are represented.

french, belgium. chinese, india. seems american as well according to reporting from the ground. and the special forces from mali involved as well as a team of paratroopers on the way from paris announced by the french government. chris. >> all right. we're getting other information from reuters. a statement from the radisson hotel that right now 124 staff and guests combined obviously -- mostly guests, still inside. so this is very much an active situation. special forces for the u.s. involved, as well as u.n. troops. and also inside the hotel -- yes mali may seem a world away from wherever you are, but there are turkish people in there, french people in there, american people in there. so this is relevant on many different levels. the international affairs editor for france thank you for being with us again.

let's talk about the relevance of this place. you have called it a country divided now. very much a home base for multiple terror groups and a conduit for movement around north africa which is very active. >> and this is why the french president chose to get involved. he launched this counterattack because of these islamist groups operating since about 2012. and also the other group is a locally based jihadist network. those groups came in on the back of the rebellion going on in the north end of the country for years. swept down in the wake of the topping of gaddafi in libya. better arms, better manned to southern mali. and it was about to cross the border between the northern and southern part of mali, it was as

they approached that border between the two that the french decided to get involved. and the reason francois hollande gave just fiction wification wad not allow that area to be controlled by those forces. >> and also further informs response to what happened here in pairis. the timing probably not coincide. the french there are. and also you have in play this perverse competition among terror groups also. isis wanting attention and others doing so through the ugliest of human acts. >> reporter: -- they have been

calling for renewed attacks on french targets as have their allies. in the south of the country. there is no link established so far with the islamic state group because we're talking about very different networks. these tend to be allied with the al qaeda and the islamic maghreb. but the idea they might have chosen to take action now to make their presence felt now of course would not be a coincide probably. we don't know who is involved for the time being. the latest information from some who have escaped is they may have been speaking english amongst themselves. if that were the case it is very unlikely we're talking about local jihadist. >> now that we know specials on are there from the u.s. there is a chance what she may have heard was part of the rescue operation going on as well. we have reported it. but the context we're not exactly sure of. and i guess there is a point to be made that who they are is not really relevant.

what they are is clear. which is they are an tension of this terrorist threat we've been seeing here. the question is now how quickly will it end? and there is an operational value there to point out for people. the bat clan, one of the points of analysis is there was time in terms of coming in for the s.w.a.t. folks to figure out what to do. the new thinking is there can be no delay. you go in and you take action. if that happened here, it may well have made a difference. >> in bataclan it was clear. as soon as french special forces realized it was a massacre rather than a typical hostage situations. you can't negotiate with these kind of terrorists. the idea is not to hold people. they don't have any claims apart from causing maximum casualties so of course it changes completely the speed with which an assault will be given. the speed with which force wills intervene to bring this to an end. so it happened very quickly of

course in this radisson blue hotel. fairly successfully. some seventy still freed but. >> the numbers are very frightening. thank you very much for joining us. we'll take a quick break. one week since the paris attacks. the world has changed so much in terms of addressing terror. we are going to talk about the threat that is expanding, as their footprint moves, the awareness must as well. what will the response be? and how will it change your life? next. what makes this simple salad the best simple salad ever? heart healthy california walnuts. the best simple veggie dish ever? heart healthy california walnuts. the best simple dinner ever? heart healthy california walnuts.

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likely not enough to take out isis by itself. so what will happen? what is this? is it the next phase? aaron david miller joins us. distinguished scholar at the woodrow wilson international center. you hear people saying this is

what we needed. this is the phase. now it will be over and over soon. and you say? >> i think it is the long war. which is hardly an original phrase, chris. but you really have to ask yourself the question: is the corna carnage in paris a transformational act or is it just another cruel and horrific twist in the long war? we have to try to make it in into a transformation and mobilize the international community and regional allies on a number of fronts. i just think if ylook at this across the arc you see several factors which are going to make the long war very difficult to translate into the short war. first there is time. we're 14 years after 9/11 and while we've done pretty good job dismantling al qaeda central, it spawned derivatives. islamic state, aqap, that's

number one. number two, the underlying reason that these trans national group are allowed to act and enabled to act is because you have empty spaces which are either not governed or badly governed. and at the moment, the middle east, libya, yemen, iraq, syria are providiing ample arenas for the groups to seek sanctuary and recruit. and finally, which i think is most important thing because michael jackson was right in "man in the mirror". if you want the make the changes in your life, you have to look in the mirror first. and the world of islam has some serious introspection to do.

standing up to offer a reasonable alternative to the viciousness of the islamic state and other groups' philosophies? i'm not sure even with military power and security preemption, all of this, how you eventually create more stable and peaceful region. so, you know, i'm follower of ryan nebor. proximate solutions to insoluble problems. if we could do that here we'd be way away. >> you are making somewhat of an argument many want to ignore certainly in the united states, which is you need to give these people something better. this radical extremist, islamist growing faction something better where they live or you will not win the long war. many people don't want to hear that. there that there is no excuse. there is no justification.

there is no victimization of anyone once they choose terror. how do you marry the two principles and reconcile a solution? >> i'm not here to justify for create the impression that what i'm describing are somehow incentives for those who do violence. i'm describing a long-term reality which will continue to prevail. europe. you have million in europe. a fifth of those -- a fifth ---to isis are european muslims. and they are european muslims not first generation primarily in places like spain and italy, but second and third generation. so clearly there is a significant problem with the interaction between european governments, civil society and e aggrieved alienated individuals, many of whom believe they live

purposeless lives, and they are being manipulated. the guys who are doing the killing may not be idea lologus but they are certainly motivated and inspired by colleagues who are. so if it is difficult in europe, imagine how difficult it is going to be in places like iraq and syria where there are no governance in essence. >> yeah. understood. as contemptible as the action is you must look at the motivation and address that as well. aaron david miller, as always thank you sir. >> yes he did marry nebor and michael jackson. >> that's why we love him. his intelligence, heart and worldly knowledge. especially at times like this. >> the trauma is readily evident on the faces of people who survived that terror attack in

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it was just a week ago that we had the paris attacks. imagine being face to face with someone holding a ak-47, a

kalashnikov. we introduce you to a man who rubbed shoulders with someone who then tried to kill him. he's here to discuss how he made it through, what he observed in his attacker and what he feels now wasn't just life-changing but it was eye opening. here is the second part of our interview. >> you are trying to figure out whether you should have done something more. but you also have to figure out why you lived and what your purpose is to be here now because you lived for a reason. you are supposed to be here. otherwise you wouldn't be. what do you think the answer is to that? >> translator: i think that life always gives you the answer. it is always possible to solve things by dialogue and by example. by this one can find a solution to problems. >> what did you tell your son to make his head okay with what he lived for? what did you explain to him

about what happened and what he needs to know? >> my son, his room is the united states. we decorated the room of my son, ryan as if he were in los angeles. los angeles, the statue of liberty, etc. we basically decorated as it is a tour of the u.s. in his room. so what i explained to my son when we went into his room this, room that he wanted to be an american room. we said to him, you did not live through 9/11 but you did live through the terrorist attack here in france. and your role is to fight against these people, these symbols and to win over them. he understands what has happened. he cried. he was traumatized by the people he saw lying on the ground. but he understands that the education we have given him is to love others, not to hate others. so he has understood that he needs others' love.

>> seeing all the people, all the destruction and not knowing where your son was. was that the hardest part? >> translator: that was very painful. extremely hard to bear. my heart was pounding. the longer i couldn't found him. the harder it beat. tears in my eye, i was not in a good place. i was angry. >> how often do you think to yourself, i wish i had grabbed him. i wish i had grabbed that arm. even though who knows what would have happened? how often do you think that? >> i have trouble sleeping. i wonder if i could have done things differently. i have a lot of regrets, a lot o of regrets about not intervenes. because since i see mothers crying, brothers and sisters crying. i cried at the hospital because i thought to myself, you did not act or only acted in a small way. thanks god there was less destruction than there could have been at the stade de france.

and that made me feel better. it was a recontempt. it could have been so much worse in terms of destruction. >> all of this makes no sense. but you sometimes have to take good luck where you found it. and even though it was unlucky to be there that night, you survived. you have your life, you have your son. and that's good luck. and good luck going forward. >> i accept this. i have a lucky star over my head. my life has been allowed to continue. so it will continue. but i will ramp up what i do. when i have recovered, the first

they were accusing him of being a fundamentalist because they now believe he is. although he is not. and the first thing i told him, was that now any situation in france or in the world where you have a company boss trying to fire someone because they are practicing their religion, be it kat

catholicism muslim bathe faith, buddhism, i will take these people on. >> wish you good luck in your fight. >> can i give you hug? >> oh of course you can. i don't want to hurt your arm. >> thank you. what an iamazing guy. he regrets that he wasn't able to give his life to save others in the face of a man who wanted to take his life to hurt others. and he comes out of a situation when so many would be so bitter, redoubling his efforts to try to teach peace. he almost lost his son. he almost lost his life. and yet he comes out with that kind of advice for the rest of us. he's a beautiful guy. and we wish him well. and there are many like him here in paris. we're going take a quick break. when we come back, we have new details about an ongoing siege in mali and developments here as

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