it is 11:00 p.m. on the east coast and 8:00 p.m. in san bernardino where investigators are trying to piece together clues on yesterday's mass shooting. this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. law enforcement sources say that syed rizwan farook appears to have been radicalized but they don't know why he and his wife slaughtered 14 co-workers. they turned their home into a

lab with thousands of rounds of ammunition and pipe bombs. they apparently lived there with their 6-month-old daughter. i want to turn to the investigation and new information pamela brown is getting for us. what are your sources saying about a possible motive in this case? >> that is still unclear and what they are hoping for is to get the contents from their electronics. we learned there were two cell phones that were damaged and found in a trash can at one of the crime scenes. the cell phones are being sent to the quantico lab and we have learned that while investigators found a computer in the home, the hard drive belonging to that computer is missing. so investigators have had to issue a subpoena for electronic information content from the big

providers. they are waiting for that. all of this will be crucial. for what evidence investigators are looking at now there is nothing to indicate a clear cut motive. one source i spoke to said this does not fit neatly into a box. there are suspicions and possible indications they could have been radicalized but nothing to substantiate that. farook had been in touch with people who have not been arrested and have not been recent communications indicating there was attack planning. there is a lot to uncover in this investigation. officials i have been speaking with say this is a very unusual case. >> this is just -- what you mentioned about the phone and the hard drive, that's the new evidence, right? that's all we know about the new evidence that's come in, right? >> that's right. i mean, there is also other electronics they are looking at as well but specifically there

were these two damaged cell phones, the hard drive that is missing. this leads investigators to believe they are trying to hide something here. >> you are saying, a motive. they can't figure it out. they haven't ruled out terrorism. but he wasn't on any terror watch lists or anything like that. what do you know about people he may have been communicating with? >> that's absolutely right, don. he wasn't on a watch list. he wasn't on their radar which is part of the reason why it is so perplexing to investigators right now. they didn't have anything on this couple. we have learned that syed farook had been in touch with multiple people that the fbi had been investigated for possible ties to international terrorism. but i'm told these were loose, soft connections and they weren't recent in terms of the last few months they had been communicating. so investigators don't feel like that is significant.

now once they learn more about the communications that could change and they are going to want to talk to these people to figure out what the interaction was. but at this point it hasn't been telling or at least telling enough for them to determine whether or not this was terrorism. >> let's discuss now some of the overseas trips that farook took, p pamela. >> his last recorded trip was in saudi arabia in 2014. he traveled over there twice. the last trip in the summer of 2014 he met his wife, his pakistani-born wife. they met there and she then came to the u.s. on a fiance visa and became a lawful resident after receiving a green card. but officials right now are in the stage of trying to figure out what did he do in saudi arabia? did we miss something? going over there is not necessarily significant or telling but now officials are

trying to get more information from saudi arabian officials about what he might have tone over there. they're told he went there afor the hajj but they are scratching their head now. >> i want to talk now to dr. -- the director of the islamic center of riverside, california. thank you for joining us tonight. syed rizwan farook attended your mosque until 2015. do you remember anything about him? are you there? i think we lost him. all right. we'll get back to him. we'll try to get him back on the phone. i'm going to talk about all of this that we have been discussing. thank you very much. i'm happy to have you here on set. you hear pamela brown's reporting about the trips that

were taken, about the evidence that they found about all the ammunition and what have you, the communications. where does this lead you? >> i think all of the circumstantial evidence is pretty clear. this was some kind of terror oriented plan and whether the attack was triggered as part of the plan or not remains to be seen. there may be mixed motives. but the other thing about it is that, you know, he was not on a watch list is in no way all that notable to me. this is not the first time that someone has shot and killed co-workers who was disgruntled and radicalized. >> significant that he took the trip overseas? we hear that about -- >> it's not really significant to me. i've worked with a number of terrorists -- not with them but on forensic cases.

excuse me. and for example there is a young man in texas doing life in prison in an fbi sting had made no trips overseas. so there's enough on the internet. there's enough going on in that realm as well as u.s. based that you don't have to go overseas. i was just in saudi arabia last month. that doesn't mean anything. >> you know what people have a problem with. they are saying this may be workplace violence or some sort of combination of both. is that when you hear about all of the -- everything that goes along with it, people who get upset at their jobs usually just go off. they don't have pipe bombs at home and you know, remote cars to take pipe bombs into buildings and tactical gear. >> this is clearly not a workplace violence incident. >> what is it? >> it's clearly someone who together with at least one other person, his wife; and perhaps

others, we don't know, was planning terrorist activities or attacks. he could have become angry and it was planned for that day or it sparked -- or pulled the trigger on the plan. >> and the reason that officials are having so much -- they're just being careful, you think? you think they have an idea? >> the more i listen to the officials the more i'm hearing terrorism is clearly on the table. this is again not in any way fitting the profile of workplace violence. you don't get you wife and arsenal and come back and have an arsenal at home. >> i want to bring some folks in now. these are neighbors of the killer's family. they are dane and britney adams. you live next door to syed

rizwan farook. have you ever seen anything unusual going on? >> i never seen anything unusual of. they seemed like normal individuals to me. nothing stranged a all. fairly normal people. >> what did you talk about when you saw them? >> i mainly saw the father, the senior, i have a jaguar that i work outside all the time. that's when i got to know a little bit about the family, not a lot. the father, he liked to talk to me. >> we know that investigators went to several different scenes and to the home of the relatives. tell us what happened last night and this morning with the investigation. >> well, i guess this morning, some feds showed up to the house, i do believe. i was not home. i was working. my wife was home.

i guess they came and swept the house and did their search. i'm not too sure. >> britney, what did you see? what did you witness? >> i saw -- there was three fbi vans outside. they were all loaded with fbi agents. they all had full tactical gear on. they had done a full sweep of their house with the sheriffs from riverside county, i believe. they were out there from 5:00 a.m. and they pronounced themselves there. they said they were the fbi and to open up. i believe that nobody with u.s. there. because they didn't have anybody out there. it was just them and reporters came and were just talking to the sheriffs and the fbi and the fbi tried to get out of there as fast as they could from anybody's communication. >> have either of you seen the family since the investigators were at the house? >> no, we have not. we -- well, we saw them

actually -- i saw them leave around -- what was it -- 3:00 today. but it was just -- it was syed, his wife, tatiana, and their daughter and they left in a quick hurry. >> say again? say that again? >> they seem to have left in a hurry. they were there. they left but they didn't want to talk. they had hoods and a bag and that's the last time we had seen them today. >> so tell us what you thought when you found out that the family of the killer in this massacre lived right next door, not that they had anything to do with it. it must be surreal. >> it is surreal. it is like something out of a movie. sometimes i have to think about it like it is surreal. it really is, yeah. >> thank you very much. i appreciate you coming on cnn.

>> thank you. >> when we come back, the killer's home was full of ammunition and bombs. what else were they planning? we'll talk about that next. this holiday season, get ready for homecomings. i see you brought a friend? i wanna see, i wanna see. longing. serendipity. what are the... chances. and good tidings to all. hang onto your antlers. it's the event you don't want to miss. it's the season of audi sales event. get up to a $2,500 bonus for highly qualified lessees on select audi models.

. officials say that syed farook was in touch of

international terrorism subjects. doctor, thank you, we had technical trouble moments ago. >> you are more than welcome. >> farook attended your mosque from 2012 to 2015. do you remember anything about him? >> to be exact to 2014. i know so much about him, actually. he was a very quiet guy. very cool-headed. someone would consider him peaceful and decent to a great extent. he is a little bit shy. a lit by withdrawn, he doesn't mix with people, you know, easily. but he's very polite. you know, i never saw him getting in an argument with anyone or have a dispute with anyone, you know.

he looked like also someone who is committed to their religion. he is very regular. he comes on a daily basis, including the weekend, seven days a week, sundays. he comes very early for the morning service and very late for the evening service. >> you never found anything out of the ordinary about him? >> not at all. and that's why it's very difficult for me to rectify what has happened yesterday with the person that i have known for some time. >> do you remember his wife? what can you tell us about her? >> i don't know anything about her, to tell you the truth. she was living in saudi arabia most of her life. and she never came to america until they got married.

they did actually the rituals in saudi arabia. they did not do it here with me so i could have met her. but they did their wedding reception, which is a dinner, here. she was here in our center that night. but i didn't have any chance to meet her. >> let me ask you this, mr. kuko. you know, as a muslim leader, you know, muslim leaders, fairly or unfairly are often asked to speak out against such events. we asked a press conference last night where muslim after muslim came up saying we denounce this, we denounce this. what do you make of this? >> of the situation? >> of what happened and whether you think it is fair or unfair you must come out after an event like this and say we denounce this type of action? >> well, if i take you back a

little bit to september 11. we were in kind of a do broad strategy. and the community at large and within our own computer the facility at large, he did all the places. down and out of town even we talk to everyone this is who we are and this is islam and i show them all the dictates and guidelines that call for peaceful co existence with other people and forbid violence and terrorism and all that kind of stuff. and also we joined the city government and the police department and now the county board of supervisors into

numerous programs. and -- >> basically getting people to know what islam is and islam is not a violent religion, what these folks make it out to be. >> that's right. >> i'm out of time, mr. kuko. i appreciate your time. we really appreciate it. >> okay. >> i want to get back to dr. amador. why don't moderate muslims denounce this sort of action every time? but you do see it every time. >> every time. what he is describing is we are defining ourselves differently and like the vast majority of muslims in the world peaceful co-existence is a tenet of the face. when there is a bombing by a white supremacist, does a

christian have to denounce it? >> let's talk about farook, he was -- he came every weekend. >> he was devout. >> he was very devout. he didn't mix well with people. he was shy. >> maybe. maybe. when i -- i look back at the terrorism cases i've worked on, the 9/11 co-conspirator cases. if he was training to be a terrorist, he is taught to lay low. what is seen as shyness and being withdrawn is not drawing attention to yourself. he is not argumentive. that also speaks to this not being workplace violence and also speaks to what you are taught starting with the al qaeda manual and other things available online. lay low, don't grow a beard if you are comfortable with that. mix in, blend in.

>> how do you know? >> you don't. >> his leagues said it appeared they were living the american dream. >> and you said they lived the american dream to the extent they wanted to appear normal as to not draw attention. >> absolutely. which is a frightening prospect when you think about it. but if we are keeping track of the people who are on the watch list and he has had contact with at least one person, then you have a way to, you know, capture people in the net who are the lone wolves who are the people who are converting and not jihadists but are becoming jihadists, that's really the challenge. >> we always in situations like this look for answers. what were the signs and what should we know. in all of the work that you've done are there traits specific to people who are becoming radicalized or for people who may pull off incidents like

this? >> one of two patterns that i've seen. there's extreme, abrupt isolation from the family and the family is scratching their heads wondering where did he go? why did this happen ever since he went to wherever. the other is arguments. you are not a jihadist, you are not a muslim if you don't kill for our faith. i have worked with families who have terrorists in their families who have killed many people where there was arguments and fighting within the family. but at the mosque, same scenario in both those thrajectories, laying low, not having arguments, you don't draw attention to yourself. >> isolation, withdrawing from the family. that happens to people who are

not radicalized. >> of course. but that brings us back to who are they in contact with when they are isolating themselves. >> we learned about the cache of weapons and all of that. it seems like, for the amount of weapons they had, it was much bigger than this regional facility. do you think they had something bigger planned? >> circumstantially they were thinking of something else. >> and the holiday party set him off? >> that's one theory i had when i first heard and the more i listen to reports and the authorities are hearing, the holiday party did set him off and pull the trigger early on the plan. it seems happhazard and drop th back off and get some of the weapons and go to the shooting. >> what about tashfeen, the

wife. there are people who are saying that possibly she was the one who radicalized him. she was the real culprit in all this. >> i have seen that in two families where the men became active terrorists. two cases where the wife or the female relative was the instigator and was leading the young man who later became a terrorist to violent jihad. on the other hand, he was shopping for a wife and he was looking for a wife who was serious about her faith and wear the hajib. >> we should not be surprised that a woman was involved? >> no, not at all. >> doctor, thank you. up next what we're learning about a possible motive about this deadly mass shooting. ♪

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san bernardino killer syed farook was apparently radicalized and he was in contact with people investigated for terrorism. but why did he choose this particular target? let's discuss with bernard karik, art roderick, anthony may, and casey anthony -- casey jordan. we did that tonight in the editorial meeting. everybody has done that. pardon me. casey jordan. anthony, you have information about the explosives. what can you tell us about the explosives? >> looking at the photographs and talking with the -- some folks -- let me just say this -- i work for the san bernardino county bomb squad and i got to tell you, they rate as far as squads go, right up there at the top of the list. they are confident and capable

of doing their job. and what i'm learning from the scene, is that the design of this particular device, especially the device left at the center, with the yellow car in front of it, there were some major design flaws. i've spent a career, 20 years where i examine exhibits, reports, photographs and the physical evidence to render opinions about devices. and all we have here is a photograph. so -- to go on. but what i'm being told and from the photograph, there's some major design flaws with this device and most likely this device never would have worked. but that's as far as i want to go with that for some obvious reasons. for intelligence reasons. the second photograph, and these photographs, by the way, are being captured by the robot from

the bomb squad. the second photograph is a bag that contains multiple pipe bombs. what's interesting about that is that there are two different designs in this bag. one is your standard stock pipe you buy off any home depot shelf. the other, however, is this elbow shaped back with internal threads. we are unclear about this bag at this point as to whether there is anything in those pipes. they are yet to be examined because no information has come out about them. but i will tell you about that particular elbow design, very rarely do we see that type of design especially with internal threads throughout the united states. there is one other place we did see that design. and that's where the boston marathon bombers. with they used the inspire

magazine to build their boggs and coincidentally or not, the inspire magazine issue number 12 that came out in march of 2014 talked about using remote control toys for to attack device and attacking venues with large gatherings of people. >> and they had those devices. it's interesting. so you know, anthony, do you think that they are -- that's why i do that. do you think there are more people involved? >> well, i'm going to say this, the inspire magazine is an al qaeda publication. i'm not saying that our suspects are affiliated with al qaeda. that is an online publication. but based on what i'm seeing from the crime scene there are more people involved than just the two shooters. i would not be surprised in the

days to come through the forensic of the computers, through the cell phones, that we may find a connection of other people. just the sheer logistics of all of this, massing the ammunition, the tools to manufacture the pipe bombs. the material to gather the pipes themselves, to include buying the explosives to do that requires a little bit of work. not difficult but it requires work. >> bernard kerik, to you agree with that? >> i think you're going to see more connections, perhaps international connections as well. don, i want to go back to something that dr. amador said and anthony and art i think they would agree. the al qaeda magazines the training manuals for international operatives and guides sleepers go unnoticed, go

into communities, shave your beard, do all the stuff, this is the exact same kind of behavior that the cartel told their operatives years ago. get into your communities, have your wife and your kids. we would have a house full of drugs, the 1500 kilos, 2,000 keys and the only thing in the house was a wife, three kids, a couch and a couple beds but everybody saw those people coming an going to work every day like a family. they were taught to do that. and that's what this appears to be here. >> interesting. art, you know, earlier we were talking about the fire power that police officers are up against and what police officers are having to deal with in that community and we talked about officer mike madden and many people said -- for anyone, he is

so el kweoquent in the way he s. this guy is a hero and the police officers are heroes who went into this building and into this scene. >> absolutely correct. when you heard him speak he was speaking from his heart. he was eloquent and i could not take my eyes away from the screen watching that press conference. it choked me up listening to him and what he went through. that was a horrendous thing he had to go through. but the victims are looking to the police officer to keep them safe to get them out of that particular situation. and just stepping one point back here to what bernie said, i agree with what bernie said. there was an interview done by one of the neighbors that lived next door and she talked about how they were quiet and were a nice family. they could hear the baby playing in the yard next door and laughter. that is exactly correct. they are going to hide under the radar so they don't gain any attention outside of the

neighborhood, law enforcement isn't looking at them. that's exactly what it appears here with this couple was exactly doing. >> so what do we do, then if they are taught to be normal so that people who are in the facility, like in the regional facility that officers like mike madden don't have to encounter a radicalized person. >> i think the scary thing of this issue is there is no signs of leakage. everyone who has known him since he was a child knows he was always quiet. he grew up in an abusive household. at what point did the susceptibility start? did it start in childhood? how did this happen and the biggest question is why his colleagues, why the workplace? i don't think we can draw any conclusions. we will never know the motives and they're dead. we'll never know.

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the gunman, syed farook apparently was radicalized and in communication with international terrorism subjects. i want to discuss with hugh hewitt. it's good to have you here tonight. i'm going to start with you nick. you were talking about radicalized terrorists in paris and you said it's only a matter of time before it's here. is this it? >> it's too soon to be fully clear. but certainly there are reasons to be concerned this time. and it is going to happen. it's something that is inevitable. >> you say it's too soon. do you think it's terror? >> i'm trying to avoid being pinned down. in journalism one of the things

you learn is the first reports are always wrong. >> hugh, you are pretty certain this is terror? >> these are terrorists. i talk knowing that probably watching us at this moment are the children and the loved ones of the 14 dead and 21 wounded. we owe it to them to be crystal clear that their parents and loved ones were victims of terror. and tonight in the "los angeles times" the article just went up, said they are worried about a deeper matrix of terror in san bernardino county based on the evidence they have gathered thus far. we have to see what we see and it is clear to me and most of america these were terrorists it was not an issue of gun control or a loaner, it's not a schizophrenic person it's

terrorism. >> my last guest was analyzing the evidence and looking at the pipe bombs and he said he was certain they were inspired from inspire magazine and there are more people involved. it does give credence to what you said about what you just read, hugh. >> i was listening to the interview. it's fascinating. and the experts talking about the looming tower and i would mention mike morel and the great war of our time people who live this and study this don't hesitate to say what is obvious to them. bob bair has been on several times. i'm a commentator, i'm not reporting facts. all the evidence says look with your eyes, listen with your ears, these are terrorists. >> one is a journalist and one is a commentator and people often get the two confused.

as a journalist you want more facts. as a commentator, you are free to say how you feel however the facts melee out. but i want to talk about this. some of the neighbors said they didn't want to report to police activity they thought might be suspicious because they didn't want to be perceived as profiling someone. do you think -- is that a concern for you? >> that is a real problem. the same thing was said in paris and is true here. >> what gives then? people are afraid of doing that because they don't want to be isl islamaphobic. >> we have seen the same thing in minneapolis getting the community to report suspicious behaviors. and it's an up hill struggle but it's something ha has to be part of law enforcement not just to crackdown to continue the

outreach. >> is this pc run amok? >> yeah, this is a replay of major hasan who gave a power point presentation that talked about terrorism and everybody in the room was uncomfortable and he was promoted and sent to ft. hood. people don't want to be pegged as bigots and they are not bigots if they are concerned. i don't know how you can miss an arsenal being built in a garage and the behavior of people coming and going. and one of the neighbors said they didn't want to be pegged as an islamaphobe. but this fountainhead of jihadism coming out of isis land and spread to paris and london and across the globe.

i've been in that building in san bernardino, southern california has a huge problem of terror suspects and link age and it's not just southern california. the jihad is here. >> let me push back a little bit if i can. i think it's too early to fully understand what the lessons learned are from san bernardino. and we'll learn that in the coming days. i do think that there are, you know, the larger problem isn't just what happened in san bernardino and what happened in colorado in planned parenthood. it's 92 people dying on average a day because of gun violence. that we do have ideas of what we can address. guns and mental heltsz are part of the solution. >> hold your thought, hugh, we'll get it from you after this break. we're born. because, healthier doesn't happen all by itself. it needs to be earned every day.

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harsh and mocked people for praying. and everyone who comes on says my faith is getting through this. check this one out. this is the new cover that will come out tomorrow. he's a terrorist and has farook up there and has dylann roof and some of the recent terrorists, adam lanza and the head of the nra as well. a quick response from you, hugh? >> the first amendment is as absolute as the second amendment. if they want to be idiots, they are allowed. if they want to make slanderous comments, they are protected. but they have offended most of america when they mocked prayer. mourn with those who mourn not mock those who are grieving. >> what do you think, nicholas? >> i think it's a little much to call the nra terrorists. i disagree profoundly with what

they do but there is a distinction. >> let's talk about your column, on guns we are not even trying. i see a lot of things that we've discussed before regulating guns like cars, universal background checks. but you say that ronald reagan would argue for gun control. explain that. >> well he did argue for controlling guns. in fact when he was governor of california, he signed a bill into law for a two-week waiting period to buy handguns. >> he wrote an op ed, right? >> he did. and i think that we have to remember that every afternoon more people die from guns than died in san bernardino. and it's very unclear what can prevent any incident. no policy could have prevented san bernardino but there are steps that can prevent other

killings. >> are you going to tell me that ronald reagan was wrong? >> play see bow proposals do not do any good. i heard adam schiff say today that we should have universal background checks and magazine clip checks eventhy thao they would not have had to do with yesterday. that is using a crisis today to advance a policy propose that is not connected to the news of the day. i think that is despicable. the discussion of guns has a time and place. nothing that nick is advocates would have stopped the last 15 major atrocities. any policy proposal short of confiscation really doesn't do anything. and i don't hear mrs. clinton, nick, or anyone arguing for confiscation. i wish people would be specific, not general and i wish they would avoid proposals that are

placebo so we can debate. >> let him respond. go ahead. >> sure. right now, 40% of guns are acquired without background checks. there is overwhelm support even from gun owners for those background checks. we do have some evidence from different state actions, alaska has approximately seven times the gun death rate of states like massachusetts or hawaii that have tighter gun regulations. because alaska has virtually no gun regulations. there is some evidence that some steps like preventing people who are subject to domestic violence restraining orders, limiting their access to weapons, providing universal background checks is going to some degree at the margin reduce the toll of violence. >> thank you, gentlemen, appreciate it. we'll be right back.

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our live coverage is going to continue with isha sesay and john vause. before we leave you i want to pay tribute to the 14 lives cut short by this shooting in san bernardino. mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, friends, loved ones, mourned by the ones they left behind. good night.

hello and thank you for joining hello, and thank you f joining us. i'm isha sesay here on the west coast. >> i'm john vause. work place disagreement or terror attack? investigators say the massacre at a holiday party might just have been both. sources say the gunman was apparently radicalized and had been in touch with people the fib finn is investigating for international terrorism. >>le