its new status goes into effect in october this year. the imf says it's an important milestone of the integration of chinese economy. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i'll see you next week. hey, good morning. it's time for reliable sources. a look at the story behind the story about news and pop culture and how they get made. this hour, does donald trump need more sleep? arianna thinks so and she's here to tell me why. plus tv legends are here to compare this election to all the others they've covered. and president obama critiquing campaign coverage and saying media to be closer. first, this morning, can we really trust the changing media narratives about the five presidential candidates still

standing? this is according to conventional wisdom dond trump's worst week ever. haven't we heard something like that before. on the democratic side breaking news this morning but the clinton campaign telling the sanders campaign. hill clinton telling chuck todd they'll find a place for the debate before the primary. bernie sanders telling them the same thing. objecting two of the three days clinton has proposed. will there be another democratic debate? let me bring in two reliable sources. abc political analyst and cnn political commentator earl lewis. thank you for being here. what is this argument about? the sanders campaign said months ago they wanted to have a debate before the new york primary. it felt so far away. now it's here. >> bernie sanders said he won a

debate in new york city and brooklyn it's possible. this is now a reality and going to matter in a way it didn't before. the reality is with two weeks to go before the primary there's a lot of logistical things before the primary. the reality is these folks have fundraiserings as and rallies a important business. some of it is not happening in new york. it's not so easy to pick a date if you only have 14 to choose from. >> there were three dates made public yesterday. one is tomorrow, the night before the wisconsin primary and the night of the naacp championships and that doesn't make much sense. the second date is april 14th. this one might be in the mix. april 15th there was a good morning america debate proposed. sanderings thinks that makes no sense. april 14th is the one on the table. that could be a cnn debate.

other jobs won. >> absolutely. >> there is a proposal on the table for maybe a debate that night. what can you tell us about that? >> i can tell you very little. i'm not part of the team doing that discussion. some of it is logistics invol involving two campaigns as well as the dnc. they have a role in all this. you bring in other news organizations and it gets very complicated. >> does it matter, matthew, if these two candidates debate. on the g.o.p. side there's no debates. >> yeah, there's candidate forums available for the g.o.p. event. i actually think it matters to each of them. each of them wants a debate for different reasons. bernie sanders wants a debate to keep any of it going. i think hillary clinton wants a debate in order to stem the tide of all the victories he's had. i think a debate will happen. it would be much better on good

morning america and nbc. >> sanders said on cnn a couple of hours ago. he said they were on abc this week. >> there must be some other reason probably because it would get a huge audience. a bedate will happen because they both want it to happen. it's just as he said, it's in the background until they force it. >> let me get both of your takes. i thought it was interesting this week. it came from dave. we can share his tweet on the screen. he's suggested about bernie sanders coverage. if anything the media has been too generous to bernie and too desperate to keep the democratic race close. this is something we every four years, the media likes a close

horse race. do you think it's true the media is asserting sander toss a better chance? >> you can find any individual journalist who might want some kind of a horse race to happen but the reality is although hillary clinton has a commanding lead, there are scenarios and not all of them are farfetched in which bernie sanders could close the gap and turn the race around and he could become the nominee. it's not untoward for us to poi point out to people like yes, there's a scenario. if you believe those percentages are obtainable or farfetched, then you can make up your own mind about whether or not this is still a close race. >> to me, it's not shocking the media overplays anything. we have breaking news 17 times a day on whatever the topic may

be. >> here's a guy, 74-year-old socialist, democratic socialist from vermont taking on the entire establishment wing of the party. hillary clinton with all the money behind her. he was 60 points behind. i think the media needs to cover not necessarily delegate per delegate, what does it mean for hill kri lin ton and the democratic party? i have no republican leannies. i'm an independent that's worked on both sides of the aisle. i think bernie sanders is the stronger election candidate. >> what an amazing thing to say. a year ago we would laughed at that idea. >> i think the strongest candidates are not going to get the nomination. i think he gets the second larger crowds and has younger voters all energized. it is the thing that needs

covered. i think for donald trump we would be focussed on iz more. >> that's one of the reasons he's hesitant about the april 14th debate date. he has a big rally planned. he has a big image filling a park or arena. let's turn to the g.o.p. side. i mentioned at the top of the show a dominate narrative is this was donald trump's worst week ever. trump's campaign manager charged with misdemeanor battery this week for man handling former news reporter michelle fields a few weeks ago. the campaign manager said he was innocent and trump suggested he was a threat to him. her pen could have been a bomb which it wasn't. loads of tv commentators agreed that the candidate might be in real trouble. >> this is probably the starting of the beginning of the end of

donald trump. >> i can this is the beginning of the end of donald trump. >> last night was the beginning of the end of donald trump bubble. >> i think this is the week we're going to look back on and say maybe this was the beginning of the end of trump 16. >> actually those were all clips from last summer and last fall. maybe some premature predictions back then. let's cue up what was said this week on tv. >> this for donald trump has probably been one of the worst weeks yet. >> actually donald trump has had a terrible week. >> this was a bad week. >> one of the billionaire front runner's worst week. >> there's been a lot of commentary this has been the worst week in your campaign. >> this time i might be right. >> i'm being playful here, of course. we know how it's turned out to be, the predictions. i'm including you, do you think this is trump's worst week ever? >> i've learned to never say

worgs, best or never i think it was a bad week. one thing you've seen is donald trump has not lost support. he's pulling the same polling numbers this week, i think, added much more to the effect. it's captured his ability to rise and get higher numbers and made that almost impossible for him to unify the republican party and made him close to unelectable in a general election when you look at that. obviously, anything could happen. i think he's still on a path and likely the republican nominee. he's polling well in all the states. he's probably going to lose wisconsin. >> you're saying the cable news users are not going too far with this negative coverage, negative tone towards trump's campaign. do you agree? >> it was a terrible week for him. i don't see how you could get

around that. it's terrible in a way that's not happened for him before. the problems came out of his own mouth in a way you didn't have to have his opponents or pund nts or anybody else say this man isn't ready for the big issues. you could look at the screen and see him underquestioning from chris matthews trying to make it up and it was clear that this 43 year debate over abortion was something he has not thought through. >> most recently last night. they said he intends to eliminate the national debt in eight years. essentially, every economist would say that. they made that clear in their story saying this is not something that's rational and yet, there's so many of these quotes and i wonder, matthew, if the effect is sort of mitigating because he says so much against so many different interviewings a s and says so many things that overwhelm the media's nervous

system and ability to check it all. >> i think i agree. this shows donald trump's worst enemy is donald trump. donald trump has not been brought down by the establishment. >> even though the slogan is let trump be trump. >> i think there is as any person he has great strengths, great flaws. i think this week was a thing he did himself. >> we're going to talk more about the aggressive interviews this week. was it a turning point? thank you for being here. >> reminder here, we mention the next primary on tuesday night both the republicans and democrats go in the polls and all the coverage will be here on cnn. coming up next.

two television legends say this election is driving them crazy. hear their media critique coming you want later in the hour, what you have to know about donald trump's tabloid task in the past. hey america, still not sure

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judging by my e-mail inbox, a lot of you think the press has not pressed donald trump enough. this week there's been a shift in the wind. listen to the way these

interviewers changed trump again and again and again. >> sir, with all do respect, that's the argument of a 5-year-old. >> i didn't start it. no, it's not. >> turmt ahe argument of a 5-ye. >> nobody wants to hear that. >> do you think it's murder, aborti abortion? >> i have my opinions on it but i'm not commenting on it. >> but you don't disagree with that? >> no, i don't disagree. >> now, my next two guest were thrilled to see that. they're husband and wife of the unique television clues. maurie is the own were of a local newspaper, a thriving journalist. you were smiling at the interview of trump. >> oh my god. i was peppering him with

questions and he wasn't running for anything. it was just that he was being. >> donald. >> exactly. >> i was giving him a hard time. apparently, later, he did an interview and did the exact same thing regarding megyn kelly. she was stupid and incompetent. >> you're saying megyn kelly is not his first female journalist. >> no. it was remarkable. i pulled it up and it was andy's

watch -- >> they perhaps insulted him or caught him off guard. >> i hope so. >> both of you were happy to see these interviews. we seen it in the washington post and new york times. tough questioning for donald trump now. and by the way, my concern is not just trump. obviously, there was blood in the water and it's easily, when there's blood in the water, that's when journalist easily strike. >> all candidates have to be tested and they have to be tested by the media and quiet frankly, i think it's public service because that's the way it's going to be if they win the election. >> there wasn't enough of it in the summer and fall. two arguments here. one was there was always aggressive questions. the other is -- >> i'll give you one, for instance which should have never

happened and finally, i think the media has overcome it and it's the phone interview. the call ins. >> why do you have a problem with the call ins? >> first of all, you're not face to face. you're sitting in your home or office and might be in your bath robe. >> and how do i get free tv today? i'll make a call because if i'm on the phone all the ratings will pop. >> you know, what my problem with follow ups, particularly at the debates, there were no opportunities for follow ups or if there were, i didn't hear them. i would scream at the tv and say ask matt, ask this. that's what is driving me a little insane. people like anderson cooper and chris matthews have been great. they've been asking follow ups but it's very hard with politicians who just roll right

over and try and ignore the question and don't answer it. but that's their normal m.o. so you just have to overcome it and keep pressing. i want so much to jump into the tv and answer that question. >> do you have a question in mind or a topic you think you need to be probed about? >> no. they all need to be just followed up. if you hear an answer and you didn't, they are. >> at times they did though, cony. at times they did. they showed some graphs at some times when a particular candidate. >> yeah, the fox news debate. >> they brought up various graphs. >> i've noticed a shift in the wind is some of the questions about the horse races and the people polls. which is what it always should be. you know what i would love to see at the end, i mean, during

debates, have you ever seen the pardon the interruption on cnn? at the end of the program they have a guy whose fact checking and anything they say that's wrong he says well, and he shouts out what is actually accurate. >> that's what i call the twitter feed. i misspoken last block and viewers let me know. >> anybody who says something inaccurate, there's a lot of things you would have a fact checker go wrong. >> the only other thing i would say about the press which i would like to see differently is i don't like the word contested convention. this is the history of political process in this country. the democratic popular vote doesn't when. you go to the convention and if you don't have the magic number,

there's a lot of trading going on. bargaining going on and this is believe it or not the american political way and somehow, i think the press is given the attitude that well, something's wrong on democratic if you have a contested election. >> you're saying something's very right. let me ask you something else about the phone ins. what do you think the difference is between the tv call in and a radio interview? why is it different and why is it wrong for the networks to have trump or clinton call in? that's what they would do on radio. >> that's a good point. if i had a radio interview, i want to be there. i want to be able to see the face, i want to be aebl ble to the expressions. we all take a look at people and say as they're answering a question, is he really telling the truth here or not. we all make that decision as to whether we believe somebody and do we want to be able to see them to make that judgment?

>> you must comment that on your daytime show. >> yeah, i mean by the way, some of the debates -- >> this campaign is in the gutter. isn't that sort of unfair to the democratic side of the aisle and unfair to john kasich g.o.p. side? >> in a way. that's why people were watching all those debates. think about the jump in rati ratingings with those debates because people were waiting for this to happen. whether it be trump or cruz or

rub rubio, they gave it to them. >> i'm so jealous of the political reporters out there watching the circus and going to the circus saying who else? why wouldn't you want to go to the circus and you can throw peanuts at them which you're allowed to do and you can't throw eggs and you can sit there and eat popcorn and have a ball all day long. and watch the monkeys perform and it doesn't get better than that i go to sleep and can't go to sleep because i'm worried about the country and the animals. >> you're worked up that much? >> i am. i can sleep but. >> before i let you go, i have to ask about the fabt you're a media owner now yourself. a lot of people didn't know this until the columbia journalism

wrote this story. they said you might have the best news room in all of montana. it's a weekly paper almost 10 years old. you told me before the show this is a tribute. >> yes, it's the most wonderful thing. his father, yes, surely. his mother's name was george. no, i'm kidding. ethel. shirley was a lengendary journalist. he's a wonderful man and incredible writer.

it's headed by a young editor who was a terrific editor who came from montana and went to the montana school of journalism, university of montana. he brought all these young kids. unbelievable enterprising journalism. >> and it's award-winning. in newspaper work a different state judges your state's newspaper. >> yeah. newspapers and issues awards based on what they read in submissions. best state. >> that's six times. best state weekly. best website four times. you have to by the way for anybody who wants, you got to be hyperlocal and have your own original stories. in community you have 25,000 in circulation. it's a prenewspaper. >> i thought the incite was then you also design websites for the advertisers. >> you can't do it on print

alone. the revenue won't afford the fact that you can only do it on print alone. we build websites and handle social media for companies. we do branding for companies and so it's a whole division of the paper. >> maybe a lesson for other paper owners. i have a full story on cnnmoney.com. >> enjoy the website. the website is great. it's really good. good writers, good articles. >> i hope you all come back soon. >> coming up in a moment. can lack of sleep explain donald trump? we just writt later, president obama, he was con den sending and was lecturing journalist. that's the fox news total. his news about the message for the media next. i love to take pictures that engage people

and to connect us with the wonderment of nature. with the tiger image, the saliva coming off and you got this turning. that's why i need this kind of resolution and computing power. being able to use a pen like this on the screen directly with the image, it just gives me a different relationship to it and i can't do that on my mac. this is brilliant for me.

welcome back to reliable sources. we are witnessing one of the most volatile rifting elections of our lifetimes. are you exhausted trying to keep up with it all? maybe you feel like this. >> i'm not a big sleeper. i like three or four hours. i toss an turn and want to find out what's going on. >> hey, trump likes to brag he only sleeps four hours a night. in next week's issue of new york magazine, gabe ree yell spends time with trump says quote people that know him have never seen him so tired. i've got the perfect guest to ask about that. the author of the new book the sleep revolution transit forming your life one night at a time.

i slept nine hours in preparation for this interview, i'm serious. first to your coverage of trump, you all started out by covering him as entertainment. wasn't that a full hearty move given he's the g.o.p. front runner? >> not at all. he's a buffoon. we started covering him as a danger who editors know at the end of each story. >> we'll put that on the screen. in the editor's note you call him a racist and among other things, how can you defend having an editor's note? >> we defend by wanting to remind our leaders every day that this man is escalating violence at his rallies and

proposing to ban an entire religion and making these comments and he's the only presidential candidate ever who believes barack obama was not born in this country. these are like extreme statements and unfortunately, the media are main streaming them. >> what do you mean by that? >> what i mean is the media by not challenging these statements again and again and again are allowing them to become part of the conversation. to become part of the main stream, getting use to these absur did is. look at the interview in the washington post. they're asking about the fact he's advocating violence at his rallies. if you're a birther, it's a little bit like a candidate who believes that the earth is flat.

it's something absolutely false. >> snlt that why he should have never been assigned to the entertainment category. >> the part about donald trump, we cannot cover him in a conventional way. >> and you're perhaps suggesting that too many other media outlets are covering him in a conventional way. >> last week was wonderful because as you showed, you had anderson cooper and chris matthews really challenging him and really pointing out that he's actually like a sleep deprived 5-year-old who has not taken his nap and therefore, rather cranky and irritable. the only problem is this 5-year-old sleep deprived baby may have his little fengeinger the nuclear button. >> have you spoken since he's entered the race?

>> no. it's irrelevant. donald trump has the potential of destroying this country. the media needs to mawake up an start covering him like that. >> he's treated like every other candidate that's fallen down on the job. >> absolutely. especially when they're including on his wedding like a badge of honor he says sleep deprivation, you have reporters who respond oh, you have so much energy. it's a little bit like a candidate saying i'm drunk. you wouldn't just be impressed by that. you would question his judgment and every day have more and more examples of his lack of judgment. >> isn't his view a point of view -- >> i think it would be absolutely a dereliction of jewty for an organization not to

have a point of view on donald trump. >> i wonder how your owner now feels about the liberal stance in the huffington post? >> the independence is guaranteed as your reporter. i've never heard one word on how to coffer trump. >> the reason i'm asking is i'm wondering if there will be a spin off. >> there's nothing like that in the horizon. >> let me ask you about the concept of your book. there's a headline on the website. the writer was suggesting that perhaps sleep deprivation will explain donald trump's behavior. why are you saying sleep is so important even though trump is not getting enough of it? >> i have an entire chapter on the science. the scientific findings that show contrary to our believes when we sleep the brain is inactive. that's the activity. all the toxins during the day happen. our functions are degraded and

we see that happening with trump again and again. we see the lack of judgment, the false memories, the inability to process information but we also saw it with rubio. you saw what happened to the did i trast rous debate that derailed his campaign and in 2012 we now have actually the evidence of what happened to rick perry when he bached his answers and shortly after was diagnosed with sleep apneapnea. >> why is it with all the topics in the world you decided to devote a whole book to sleep? >> i feel we have convinced the world that exercising nutrition is important but the third leg is sleep. >> even though you have so many staffers working hard on broadway, you encourage them to take enough naps? >> absolutely. we encourage people to disconnect and come back to work

recharged because that's when we are most creative. >> i wonder, would some of your would be employees be interested in coming to the huffington post? >> it definitely improves retention in recruitment. >> thank you for being here. >> coming up next on the program, a different way at looking at the donald trump phenomenon. they are loud and desperate to make a splash and in the 80s and 90s trump was their cover boy. let's shape the way the media han handles that today after the break.

i'm not talking about the apprentice. donald trump was the front page spotter back in the 1980s and

90s. any news was good news. now that trump is a g.o.p. front runner, not much seems to have changed. here's a thesis for you. tell me if you agree. trump benefits and seems most comfortable when the media is treating him like a tabloid story. he's less comfortable when asked about abortion, national debt or nuclear weapons. that's when headlines come out he doesn't like to see. my next guest say it is tabloids here in new york was basic training for the candidate. >> i was a very young life style reporter writing a story about the psychological impact of his divorce. i called and said let me call his office and see what happens having no expectation he would take part. his secretary said he was busy

and i left my number and he called back and said larry, donald trump and i had a conversation with him about the psychological impact of divorce. he worked the new york city tabloids. he was an operating system for the new york city tabloids in the 80s and 90s. he was in basic training and exhibition baseball. he knew how to work them. >> work them meaning create story lines too good to resist. >> he wassish resistible. he was wealthy, good looking, incredible personal life. he got divorced. look at these photographs and people magazine and all the magazines took part in this. what took place then was the dree yags of the trump per sewn that. that began the apprentice. he formed this. this was chiselled back in the 80s and it worked for him. he knew how to use it. he got well trained on it and that's how we ended up where we are now. >> he knows the value of those

intervi interviewers. >> there was no reporter that didn't get a call back in the 80s and 90s. he knew there was a relationship. he knew he made headlines and it made him famous and both sides got what they wanted. >> that's fundamentally either the argument in favor or against trump. there's a symbiotic relationship. >> that's right. i remember the daily news and pete hamilton after a meeting threw up his hands and said i want a more toirm on donald trump. they threw up their hands and said i'm not sure that's a good idea. >> i had a producer say that to me in 2014. that was way before he entered the race. it was trump flirting with politics and we thought this has happened so many times. >> the issue back then. you were talking about his personal life and abortions and girl friends. new york city tabloids love a

good headline and they're not terribly judgmental. they think the reeders will make the judgment. we all thought trump was ridiculous. he was entertaining and polarizing. again, the issues are not as high steaked as they are now. >> one of his ex-wives are on this morning. it's all about how she supports him. >> i do wonder if he benefits more when he's on tabloid terrain. this morning in the new york times he admits he regrets that retreat image of heidi cruz that was insulted. he generated a lot of attention. >> it's a tabloid friendly story. >> i tend to think what happened last week, he will not make that mistake again. he will not put himself in a situation. i think what those guys did last week was they adopted tabloid

tactics. they called him out on it. it wasn't the ordinary formal question of a presidential candidate. they were tough and street fighting with him. do i see him sitting down one on one? >> he has many town hall invitations. we'll see if he accepts them. up next on reliable sources, the president critiques the press. he's doing my job for an evening and is the mess englisher or the message, is that what's sticking in a lot of reporters crops? we'll get to the bottom of it after this. my school reunion's coming fast.

could be bad. could be a blast. can't find a single thing to wear. will they be looking at my hair? won't be the same without you bro. ♪ when it's go, the new choice privileges gets you there faster. and now, stay two times and you can earn a free night.

book now at choicehotels.com

♪ no, you're not ♪ yogonna watch it! ♪tch it! ♪ ♪ we can't let you download on the goooooo! ♪ ♪ you'll just have to miss it! ♪ yeah, you'll just have to miss it! ♪ ♪ we can't let you download... uh, no thanks. i have x1 from xfinity so... don't fall for directv. xfinity lets you download your shows from anywhere. i used to like that song. president obama is not the best person to deliver a sustained critique of today's news media. his administration has stymied journalist's attempt to gain access at documents.

his justice department pursued leakerance whistle-blowers. and they've booked the president on with jimmy fallon and on youtube series. he is not the best messenger. but that does not automatically discredit his message. in his final year in office the president wanted to speak at length about the press's role in america. at this week he attended the toner prize dinner and said this. >> let's face it, in today's unprecedented change in your industry, the job has gotten tougher. even as the appetite for information and data blowing through the internet is voracious, we've seen newsrooms closed, the bottom line has shrunk, the news cycle has as

well. and all too often there's enormous pressure on journalists to fill the void and feed the beast with instant commentary and twitter rumors and celebrity gossip and soft ee eer stories. and then we fail to understand our world or understand one another as well as we should. that has consequences for our lives and for the life of our country. >> consequences for the country. he's drawing a straight line from your media diet to our democracy. he seemed to critique donald trump coverage very specifically. a white house aid tells me this next passage is something very important to the president, something he very much wanted to say. >> a job well done is about more than just handing someone a micropho

microphone. it's to probe, dig deeper, the electorate would be served better if it was do better. p when politicians issue unworkable plans or make promises they can't keep. >> in journalists are digging deeper every day and demanding more. and no, obama is not the best messenger on this. but if i had said the exact same words, wouldn't you find yourself nodding your head in agreement. journalism is not about handing over the microphone. it's about what you do the microphone. with the tiger image, the saliva coming off and you got this turning. that's why i need this kind of resolution and computing power. being able to use a pen like this on the screen directly with the image, it just gives me a different relationship to it

and i can't do that on my mac. this is brilliant for me.

finally this morning, if you like the sere rice "people

versus o.j. simpson" you our going to love our toobin talking o.j. download it at cnn.com/media. stay tuned for "state of the union." starts right now. ♪ whiplash! donald trump changing his position on abortion -- >> you have to ban it. >> -- twice in two days. >> the laws are set. i think we have to leave it that way. >> how will voters respond to the front-runner's flip-flopping? and delegate derby. >> our path going forward is to get 1,237. >> but if no one makes it to that magic number, who will win? the stealth strategies under way to swing the convention. plus -- under her skin. >> i am so sick of the sanders campaign lying about that. sick of it! >> clinton accusing sanders of lying and playing games over a