we were surprised to learn that a cabinet reshuffle has made that position, well, a thing of the past. who could have predicted that? thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week, i will see you all next week. hey, good morning, it's time for "reliable sources." today we look at the story behind the story, how news and pop culture get made. could the king of pop are be dethroned? could rush limbaugh's -- will respond to sanders claims of media bias. and the shocking twist in the hulk hogan gawker case. there's a billionaire that's been secretly supporting hogan the whole time. i'll tell you what it mean in the future of media. but first, i would like to

tell you about a conversation that's happening in a lot of news rooms. what to do when sccandidates invoke innuendos and conspiracy series? the focus is on one candidate, donald trump. you could hear the frustration in jake tapper's voice. >> once again, journalists are in the unhappy predicament of trying to decide what and how to cover false allegations raised by a candidate for president of the united states. >> now in this case, tapper was addressing trump's latest for ray into conspiratorial thinking, this involves vince foster. donald trump made a comment that the 1993 death of the white house council, was fishy, that foster committed suicide. a fact backed up by government investigations and news investigations.

but friends of donald trump's website say that -- saying it was a murder, falsely for 20 years, and it looks like trump has been reading those claims online. so what's the press to do about this? it's not as simple as you might think. so joining me now are three seasoned reporters. julie pate, the white house correspondent for the associated press, jonathan martin, the continue for the "new york times." and michael reski. you can say to the camera, these claims are all false. but still i wonder if it sticks in the minds of people and they think it's true. >> i think our role is clear, our role is to state what's true. so for example, we did a story earlier this week that actually tried to assemble as many of these conspiracy theorys that we

could that trump has passed along or propagated and d. it's more about debunking the conspiracy theories because many of them have been around for years and we'll never settle some of these arguments. but the real issue is that by bringing them up again he's targeting them up against hillary clinton because they're all conspiracy theories that in one way or another involves the clintons or other democrats. and hillary clinton said she was going to get to the bottom of whether aliens have visited the earth. but what trump is doing is propagating disproving or at least heavily debunked conspiracy theories in an effort to discredit clinton. >> you wrote this week in the times that right wing media is getting its wish, why is that?

>> if you follow politics closely, you know that what has happened in recent decades is that it's a constellation of conservative media forces, talk radio, the internet, notably drudge, and a few other sort of media outlets have effectively become a wing of the republican party and have been very powerful in pushing negative information into the kind of main stream media. and there is a sort of food chain, or there was at least a food chain here, an ecosystem, where a party operative would feed information to right wing media outlets and once it was posted on the web somewhere, or on talk radio or on foxes news, then those same operatives would get it in the media. trump cut out the middle man and he now traffics in all kinds of smears and isn't that concerned about the voracity of that

information. he's happy to do it himself, to sort of send it around, no fingerprints, off the record, what have you. he himself has become a candidate who's willing to traffic in conspiracy theorys and we haven't seen anything like this in national politics, so i think it is incumbent upon us in the media when this does happen to step back and say this is not normal and what he is doing is remarkable and if he is telling mistruths or passing along mistruths, we should say that is not correct. >> the question i don't want to ask is is this effective. i think it probably is effective. but this is a show about media. so julie, what do you do? one option is to not quote him at all, is to not share if it is a conspiracy theory?

>> if we chose to ignore what he was saying, that would almost be worse, we would be selectively keeping information or trying to keep information from the public and that's not our job either. what we do have to do in all of these cases is put as much context around what trump says as possible. it's irresponsible if we just simply put out his quotes or we just show a clip of what he says, we have to put in the political context, especially when it comes to things he says about hillary clinton, what message is he trying to get across to the public about hillary clinton. and then to jonathan and mike's point, we really need to put as much fact about these stories as we can. and i think one of the smartest thing we can do, use trump's words, use the questions that he's asked, his answers in full. because that is sometimes more effective than anything, showing exactly what he was asked and exactly what he said. >> we don't have an option of

ignoring what he puts on twitter or instagram, or political things he brings up? i think it's an awkward thing to ask, because journalists do choose not to cover certain subjects, we choose not to pay too much attention to protests that might be about 9/11 truthers for example. >> we make choices and decisions all the time. that's what editing is. but what julie said is the most important point. this is a major party candidate for president of the united states, the public needs to hear what he has to say. we then can do things to try to expand or put context or just call it as untrue. when donald trump the other day said that hillary clinton wanted to repeal the second amendment. well that was false. she's never said that. she's never proposed that. on the other hand he may have been trying to get at something that he could have said that might have been a truth, which was that they have different

views on how much guns should be regulated. but that's a very different idea. and it's really important for to us help people understand that. but there's no way we can shield the public from this or should. >> let's bring another sound bite. talking about other conspiracy theorys that trump has brought up in the past. watch the reaction from a trump supporter when he did this. >> vince foster's suicide, trump calls it fishy, he links autism and vaccines. he suggested ted cruz's father was involved in jfk's assassination and he still doesn't know if obama was born in theis u.s. is trump a spears theorist? >> no he just likes to get other people and to find out the facts. >> he likes to get people thinking was the answer there. i do wonder jonathan if this comes down to googling?

is the answer here for viewers, for readers to take a more active role in checking what every candidate says, particularly trump's given his past reference to conspiracy theorys? >> yes, this election puts an add add added burden on the voters to get at the bottom of these questions and statements. but we should help the voters by being straight with regard to what these candidates say and if we don't, we're being irresponsible, obviously. >> we're going to bring the panelists back. right after the break, i want to tell you an untold story about the original trump conspiracy theory. when trump brought up the birther conspiracy. hear from one of the aides that

was in the oval office when it happened, next. the big hilton world sale is on honors members save up to 25% on brands like hampton, doubletree, hilton garden inn, and waldorf astoria so stop clicking around. book direct at hilton.com now that's satisfaction.

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as fast as my brain does. i do this because i want my artwork to help people. ? our planning meeting, we asked who has experience with this? as we mentioned in the first segment this morning, trump has been stoking the birther theory since obama was running for president.

making allegations that president was not american. despite being charged in interviews like this one with abc's george stephanopoulus. >> there's a real question about the birth certificate. there's a real question about the -- his own citizenship. >> there is no question, he's got a certificate of live birth that's recognized by the state of hawaii. they're facts. >> they're not facts. >> this birther conspiracy has been circulating for years, at the white house importacorrespo dinner just a couple of weeks later, the president responded big-time. >> tonight for the first time, i am releasing my official birth video.

♪ >> president obama's response was, simple, effective and it was pretty funny. some people say that white house correspondents dinner actually caused trump to want to run for president for real, because he was humiliated by obama on stage. let's talk about the white house sort of tried to defame trump in this situation. i'm joined by one of obama's former advisors, i worked with him very closely in the white house, dan pfeiffer. dan, good to see you, good morning. >> i'm really curious if you can fake us back to 2011. this birther conspiracy has been circulating on the web for years and trump talking about it made a difference, why? >> in 2007 and 2008, there were these e-mails going around, born in kenya, not eligible for the

presidency, but they never sort of reached critical mass where the public was talking about it. the figures that were pushing these conspiracy theories and they didn't have the capacity to get on george stephanopoulus's show. when trump picked this up in 2011, he huged this huge megaphone, he was on the morning shows and the sunday shows making the case, and even when reporters pushed back really lard, people were saying headlines, people were saying twitter and facebook and we felt we had to respond if we were going to put this in the box and we were going to begin to focus on the very serious issues we were facing in 2011 s the goal was to be aggressive, it was fortuitous, in that the correspondents dinner was just a few days later, we had this big stage to handle trump in the way that we always thought was the best way which was ridicule. >> do you believe the theorys

that that's what caused trump to get serious about running for president, the ridicule he experienced at that dinner that year? >> as much as i -- i don't think so, he could have run in 2012 and chose not to after he was humiliated in that speech. >> you're saying that should be the tactic, perhaps of the clinton campaign when it comes to dealing with more recent conspiracy theorys that come up? >> we were able to go to the state of hawaii and present a piece of paper that said exactly what trump said was not true. the sort of conspiracy theories he's alleged about vince foster and things like that are much more challenging because it's impossible to prove a negative. but i think you have to take him on and arm your supporters and your surrogates with talking points that they can be sharing on social media so there's two conversations happening, there's the trump supporters pushing the

conspiracy theory and the hillary clinton supporters and hopefully the media pushing back. >> he tries to say he doesn't talk about that anymore, is that because you all effectively let's not going to -- >> i never try to ascribe too much strategy between what comes out of trump's mouth. there's about a nanosecond th that -- >> he deserves real credit for beating a lot of really good republican politicians, he had the advantage of being the candidate with the highest name id in the positions most consistent with the republican base, that candidate usually wins, this is a much different game that he's in now.

>> when you look at how the press handles these conspiracy theories, about vince foster. do you wish there was something that was being done differently? >> i know journalists struggle with this, because trump is changing the norms of campaigns. despite what the public thinks, most politicians do not lie. sometimes they're misleading, sometimes they cherry pick their facts, but they don't lie. and this is not something reporters are used to. now we're on cnn, you work for cnn, i'm a cnn contribute for, but the reporter that deserves a lot of credit for addressing this in the most effective way is jake tapper, he takes them on aggressively and he doesn't treat them as a traditional misleading fact checking type station. i think more journalists should follow jake's lead on this. >> that's a blueprint for other journalists going forward.

>> absolutely. >> thank you so much for being here. >> thanks, bryan. coming up here, bernie sanders, a lot of media types underestimate his appeal this time last year. is he making the and multi-layered security. it's how you stay connected to each other and to your customers. with centurylink you get advanced technology solutions, including an industry leading broadband network, and cloud and hosting services - all with dedicated, responsive support. with centurylink as your trusted technology partner, you're free to focus on growing your business. centurylink. your link to what's next.

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. don't count bernie sanders out, that's the message from his supporters and it's a message aimed at two groups, the democratic party and the media. while hillary clinton is on the cusp of winning the democratic nomination. i'm more interested in what his fans say and there are lots of them. listen to the crowds at hiss rallies, listen to the supporters on social media and you hear a widespread belief that the media is biassed

against him. that there's been a media blackout. many supporters say they did underestimate his strength from last year, so i'm wondering if the same mistake may be being repeated this time. julie, do you look at what's happening right now with sanders with his increasing criticism of the media, the way he is covered. do you look at all this and say this is always what happens when a candidate is down on his luck and about to lose the race? or is there some legitimacy that this is still a competitive primary? >> i think the thing with sanders is it is definitely true that the media as a whole underestimated him last year, but the reason we focused on him

and the reason he got more attention is that he started winning, politics, presidential campaigns in particular, you hear a lot got the narrative and the momentum, and rallies, but it really comes down to math, how many primaries are you winning. hillary clinton has a lead that is insurmountable unless bernie sanders is able to drastically flip the superdelegates, the math is the math and that's what it comes down to in this process. >> i wonder if the media is alienating some democrats who say the process is rigged and the press is part of the problem, should we be doing more to explain how this works in order to win those supporters

over? >> we have a -- the relationship gene sanders and sanders supporters and clinton's campaign is a crucial one and a very important one. how well that comes back together in the next few weeks and months is goings to be a crucial piece of this campaign, so there is a real story there. >> it's an issue of not seeming too dismissive perhaps in taking on sanders supporters. sanders has said that he will not run as a third party. there are other parties, the libertarian party, we have seen more of the candidates garry johnson, also his vp, his running mate pick, do you think this uptick in -- by letting more people know that they're in the race, so to speak, could it tip the scales in some way? >> i think it could be significant absolutely.

it's a question of how you define significant. if they do get ample press coverage this summer and fall, and there is no other viable third party candidate that emerges in the johnson-weld ticket, which hasn't been formalized yes, but if it becomes the defactor alternative in conservatives and republicans who can't bring themselves to vote for trump. it could determine what they get 3% in some places or 7% or 8% or even higher. >> should media pay attention to libertarian garry johnson, certainly i think voters need to know that there are other options besides the two primary partners. >> they're two former governors. >> let's look at this poll in march. this is monmouth university. you can see they're getting 11%

against hillary and trump. it is enough to make him a spoiler, right? >> absolutely, and by the way, 11% for someone who is not known really at all, and was just thrown on to a questionnaire, i think it tells you about the dissatisfaction with the two nominees. >> that's exactly the right point, i think, jonathan, is that there is a real hunger out there, i was in pennsylvania most of last week talking to voters, i talked to 30 voters and all of them were dissatisfied with the candidates. almost a third alternative is very attractive at this point. >> it's almost at issue how a third candidate in the race could make a difference, and the press, let's be honest, tv networks, the website, it would be interesting to write about more than just two candidates, so that might be a factor. >> there's a long history of

third party candidates effecting the outcome of american politics, from ross perot -- >> we're going back to the '9 # 0s again, we're talking about trump and bringing um clinton stories, we're now talking about ross perot. >> this is not actually that unusual a situation in american politics, not to cover it at all would be as bizarre as to overcover it. i very much doubt that there will be newsrooms that give all three candidates equal coverage, but i imagine that there will be a lot of interest. >> michael, julie, jonathan, great talking to you all this morning. up next, the role of race and racism in support for the trump campaign. why do so many journalists have a hard time talking about it? we'll talk about that next.

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sources. i don't know about you, but i have heard the following phrase about 100 times, economic anxiety. whenever experts are on tv and they try to explain trump's rise, they say it's economic anxiety. these are real factors, trump promises jobs and better days ahead. but are the talking heads missing something, when they pin it all on the economy? what about racial anxiety as a factor? i think this piece of the trump story has been overlooked. maybe because, i mean, less face it, it's a lot more difficult to talk about. but as it relates to mel bowie have said, among voters, higher levels of racial resentment have been growing.

now he and others have asserted that make america great again, that slogan we see on those signs is really about restoring whites in an increasingly multicultural america. he said many racists are not poor and many poor whites are not racist. but for many voters, race and economics are not separate issues. so when reporters and commentators do separate them, aren't they failing to tell the full story of what's going on? tim wise, an anti-racism educator who's the author of several books on the topics, joins me now to discuss this. let me first go to you, do you think journalists are doing a disservice to the audience when we don't put the racial context of trump's support? >> if the only reason for trump's support is economic

anxiety. 1/15th the net worth, nine years less life expectancy, in large part due to racial economics. there's a link between the kind of economic anxiety that white folks are feeling and this larger political or racial anxiety, really what it comes down to is if you think about it, it's the same way that southerners and i am a southerner, that the civil war wasn't about slavery, it was about civil rights, but you were fighting about the right to own people. a lot of people say i like that he says what's on his mind, but you like what he says about mexicans and the chinese and about black africans on the streets, in fact all of those things that people say trump is about, economics, the straight shooting, the straight talking guy, all of that still comes back to his perspective on

othering other people, saying they're the ones who endanger your jobs, they're the ones to blame for your lack of safety in the streets, it's very much about racialized scapegoating and economics make it impossible to combine those things, but at the end of the day, it's still about risacial identity. >> i'm glad you're able to join us because you're traveling to so many states for the series, have you picked up on this? >> it's no surprise that there's racial anxiety. and we try to have conversations with people and not just shout slogans as trump is doing, and if you're able to start a conversation--trump is capitalizing on people's most based fears. >> let's take that as true if you believe it. why don't we hear it more often on television, why don't we read got it more often, why isn't it

a more integrated part of trump's rise to the nomination? >> thanks for bringing the facts and figures, i appreciate that, tim. america is always afraid of a race conversation. not all of america, there's lots of media covering it, which is main stream media which is largely owned by white people is afraid of an honest and open race conversation. >> the media gets very intimidated by the thought that if they accuse his supporters of somehow being motivated by racial anxiety, trump will say, see, they're -- so i get some of the trepidation, but we have to start being honest, the biggest mistake, how many media folks have actually asked donald trump or any of his key supporters, hey, what does that hat mean?

you're wearing this hat that says make america great again, when exactly was america great. when was it great for people of color? when was it great for lgbt folks? back when the tea party was saying they wanted to take america back, i asked the tea party person, what jeer do you think you want to go back to? and he said 1957. which makes perfect sense, because that was the year leaf it to beaver premiered. here's a slogan, it's right on his head every day and no one asks him what it means. >> i have heard interviewers ask him but what he has not provided is an answer. >> i want a year, a decade, an era, something, because any year you pick is go to not be a great

one for anyone but the dominant group. if someone would nail it down, we could have a conversation. because any year you pick is going to be a nostalgiaized vision of america. >> you point out that the main stream media is mostly run by white men, and i wonder if there's something here about why networks don't have full-time race and ethnicity continues on tv. i think your show is part of the solution to this. but are there other recommendations that lives this every day and who thinks about these issues for your program? >> maybe it would be great to have a race conciliation person in everybody's office, but you also just need more people of color and more different kinds of people. even on my show, i was the only

person of color on my show, and i would say things and people around me were looking at me like i was crazy, and i was like can i get a black person to step into the room now? it was about having a bunch of different people because there was more ideas in the room. you don't get great ideas from everybody who is the same. you have great ideas from people who are different and have different ideas. >> it's not about saying all of trump supporters are racist or even that many of them are racist, but it's lot the racial undercurrents got what's happening in this campaign. and i guess it's some of the rhetoric that we hear, the us versus them rhetoric. when you're speaking to his supporters versus them the others who are not his supporters. >> part of the reason we do not do well with these conversations is that many americans do not realize that the game that trump is playing by blaming black and brown folks for the problem for

working class or struggling middle class white people. >> he doesn't come out and say, i'm blaming the black people. he doesn't say that exclusively. >> he says they're coming in as rapists and drug dealers, the muslims are terrorizing you and the chinese are screwing you on trade. >> you think i'm being too careful here? >> i understand. there's a -- i guess what you're trying to do, i respect you when you say that, but i think there's a fear of even calling trump supporters racist, but yeah, a lot of them are racist, there's a feeling in this country that we can't even apply it when it makes sense. when you see black people being beat up at trump rallies, i could call some of his supporters racist, but we can't use it even if it applies. we won't apply it to other situations, even when you say we are having these conversations, what you really mean is that

white people are having these conversations, but black people, i just had that conversation before i got here, so there are people in this country who are having these conversations. >> to be blunt about it would perhaps go a long way towards having more of those conversations. coming up next here, is the king of conservative media about to be dethroned? a story about rush limbaugh you've got to hear. just a moment. soon.

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a new article in politico magazine says limbaugh's radio power may be waning. limbaugh's contract is about to expire. in less than two months from now actually. his current deal, a land mark eight-year commitment was valued

at $408 million. here's what ethan epstein wrote. in recent years limbaugh has been dropped by several long time affiliates. in many cases limbaugh's moved on to smaller stations with weaker signals. so what's going on here? shouldn't rush be benefitted more by trump's rise? has it had more of a ripple effect from rush, that rush limbaugh hasn't benefitted more from this incredible moment in conservative politics? >> i think in a way he has, talk radio has actually seen a ratings boost, they're actually calling it a donald trump bump. >> the same ratings increase

that television has limbaugh hasn't been able to monetize it in the way television has, because the main problem is an advertiser boycott. no matter how many listeners he has, it's still hurting. >> that's why i thought your article was so interesting. why is this happening -- sandra fluke. let me put on screen what you wrote about this situation. you say four years after he called her a slut on the air, reams of advertisers still won't touch him. this is a rare ad boycott that's had a long-term effect. >> that's exactly right. four years ago is an eternity in the media universe. most people probably hadn't -- >> the forgotten about the case entirely. >> and i think you're not alone in that, but amazing after all

those companies announced they were going to boy county limbaugh's show, they stuck by it, and that is has had a deleterious effect on his business. what is important to remember is limbaugh, as you mentioned, had a guaranteed contract, an eight-year countered, so, you know, every advertiser could leave him, and he was still going to get 38 to 50 million a year. now the contract is about to expire and he needs to renegotiate it. this is where his personal finances could be on the line. you reached out, but didn't hear anything about to them about what's going to happen in the future? its i didn't. i also also talked to a lot of people involved in talk radio, in writing this piece. they all these that premier doesn't want to re-sign him. he's still the marquee name. >> he's not going away, right? >> no, he's going to be talking somewhere. the question is how people will listen to him? and premier, all things being

equal, would prefer to keep him, but the fact is they simply will not be able to afford the same salary that they gave him this time around. if he stays with premier, he'll get the paycut. >> does it say this about the talk radio more broadly, that it's not as strong as it used to be? >> i think as well as the effects of sandra fluke. the boycott affected all of talk road. what a lot of companies did, take j.c. penney's they loudly announced they were no long going to sponsor the news and traffic updates during the limbaugh show, but they pulled their advertising from all talk radio just to be on the safe sigh. in that way, what limbaugh did hurt all of his colleagues. the whole news talk format bake a no-buy zone. >> i usually roll my eyes, because i don't think they'll have an impact, budge in this

case, it actually did. before i let you go, you mention indeed your story that trump has not been endorsed by rush limbaugh, nor attacked by rush limbaugh. he's taken this middle approach of not going all the way in for trump. is that right? >> that's right. i think now that the primaries have wrapped up, you know, he'll be pulling for trump, particularly against his hated hillary clinton. in the primaries, he was agnostic. i think that spoke to his business sense. he knew about half his audience loved trump, about half hated it, so he went down the middle. >> he is a mart businessman, but it seems like the ground has shifted underneath. we'll see what he does in july when the contract is up. ethan, thanks so much for being here. >> thanks so much. up next here on the program, does tech billionaire peter thiel pose another -- ko other outlaws as well?

it doesn't make. sort of like marrying a man you met on tv. i love you. i love you too. yeah. world saleilton is on honors members save up to 25% on brands like hampton, doubletree, hilton garden inn, and waldorf astoria so stop clicking around. book direct at hilton.com now that's satisfaction. it's more than a nit's reliable uptime. and multi-layered security. it's how you stay connected to each other and to your customers. with centurylink you get advanced technology solutions, including an industry leading broadband network, and cloud and hosting services - all with dedicated, responsive support.

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huck hogan's invasion lawsuit just got even stranger. this week forbes.com reported that a billionaire is secretly funding the lawsuit, who? peter thiel, founder of paypal. his involvement had been suspected, but he had no proof when thiel proved it, confirming that gawker is a bully that deserving to be challenged. almost ten years ago valley wag wrote a blog post about thiel being gay. it wasn't completely a secret, but it wasn't well known. a couple years later, he was blunt with the hatred. he says some of his friends have been bullied by gawker sites as well. so here's the thing. thiel is also bankrolling other

lawsuits. we don't know how many. it's perfectly legal to fund someone's litigation, but this sends up a chill of the spines of journalists. is this a new way to attack the media? you may not like gawker, but he said if this is the new weapon, few publications will are the resources off death wish to scrutinize them. he believes it could be a chilling effect on journalist. there's a connection between financing lawsuits and financing elections. the same questioning about transparency apply to each. so i leave you with this question -- should the injure that found gawker liable for $150 million have been told by thiel? should they have been informed that a billionaire who despises gawker was footing the bill for the suit?

should they be informed the next time it happens? we're out of time for questions here on tv. make sure you sip up for our nightly newsletter. "state of the union starts right now. \s today, the most unpredictable primary ever, as seen from the inside. >> donald trump, we underestimated. >> this is a movement. we're going to make our country great again. >> he's figured out something about the electorate that will allow him to survive in ways no one else on the stage did. >> florida senator marco rubio tells us his mistakes. >> there it is, the memorized 25-second speech. >> i walked into this trap, unfortunately. >> his regrets. >> i call him little marco. >> by the time he started doing that, we were in a very bad spot in the campaign. >> and what he's willing to do for donald trump. >> i want to be