with you. thanks so much for spending the time with me. i'll see you right here next week. and for many, many more weeks, as long as you keep tuning in. good morning. it's time for "reliable sources," our weekly look at the story behind the story. this hour, bernie sanders warning the media, do not declare hillary clinton the nominee until the convention in july. does he have a point, or is he ignoring the facts? i'll take you behind the scenes of the network decision making and talk with the pro-bernie young turks. he says i'm part of the problem, part of anti-bernie bias. plus, with hillary clinton calling donald trump every name in the book this week, even dangerously incoherent, i'll ask her press secretary about the trump strategy and why she hasn't shown up for a press conference in months. and later, remembering

muhammad ali and his savvy use of the media. first, straight talk about trump. he says you can't trust us. he attacks the media constantly. he says he wants to even loosen up laws so it's easier to sue news organizations. meanwhile, his campaign blocks news outlets from receiving press credentials. as you know, at almost every rally, every event, he attacks reporters. >> he's a sleaze in my book. you're a sleaze. sit down. sit down. sit down. are you ready? do you have your pad? they do whatever they can to make you look bad. they're disgusting. totally dishonest. the most dishonest people. scum, scum. they're worse than lying ted cruz. horrible press, horrible people. some are nice. >> it's almost -- it's hard for me not to laugh because, welt, truth is he loves the media. yes, i said loves. trump craves media attention.

he courts it doggedly. he consumes coverage of himself voraciously. he pays super close attention to ratings. if i had to sum it up in one line, i'd say the media is his lifeline. trump acts like his own publicist and behaves like a tv producer. producer of the trump show. it was on full display this week when trump made time for "the hollywood reporter." interviewer michael wolf came away saying trump is vague on all subjects outside himself, his campaign, and the media. everything else is mere distraction. and michael is a columnist with "the hollywood reporter." he joins me now back in new york. nice to see you. >> brian, nice to see you. >> is trump acting? is that how we view his media critiques when he calls a reporter sleazy? >> yes. does he really think the reporter is sleazy? does he really care that the reporter is sleazy? no. what he does is understand that

the moment of attention has arrived. his goal is to use the media to focus that attention on himself. and this is not a small thing here. and it is not that the media is so much his life. think of it as the media is his party. >> his party. >> so he's not really a republican. he's certainly not a democrat. he's not of washington. he's not of congress. what he is, is a person of the media. he's grown up in it. he knows everybody, everybody who's important in the media, he has an intimate relationship with. >> i was just pulling up your line about that from the magazine article. let me put it up. trump has a long, intimate relationship with nearly every significant player in the media.

indeed, lavishes copious praise on almost all of them. you say he calls rupert murdoch a tremendous guy, les moonves is the greatest. he knows the head of cnn very well. even the head of nbc news, he said, is doing a very good job. are there any executives redoesn't like? >> i don't think so, no. why would he not like them? they have the power that he needs and the power that he admires. >> the megaphone, you mean. >> the megaphone, the literal mechanism to tell his story. >> even though so much of the coverage is negative. we just saw jake tapper's interview. very tough questions. >> but negative for him converts to positive. you think and the people he's calling sleazy think it's negative. but it's not negative.

because we're talking about him. because you let him talk. so he is able to use the media in such a way to speak to people who are not interested in politics. >> you came away thinking he's not that interested in politics either. >> i don't think he's interested in politics at all. >> maybe that's a very wise position. >> obviously. certainly most people -- i think most people -- not most people, a -- we understand that there is a portion of the electorate which has heard about policies, policies, policies and no longer believes in that. no longer believes those policies are getting them what they want. therefore, they now have the opportunity -- i mean, we've heard about this. people inside the beltway, people are sick and tired of politicians. we've had other politicians who have said, i'm an outsider

politician. but now we have donald trump, who really isn't a politician at all. he is something that we have never seen before. as a matter of fact, if he is elected, i mean, i think that he will continue to rule by media. and in a broader sense, we might be able to think about that. you know, there have been leaders, you know, historically -- think of them. napoleon ruled with an army. donald trump will rule with the media, with knowing how to use the media exactly as napoleon knew how to use the military. >> if he wins. if he loses in november, let's go the day after the election. do you think he'll use the media then as well as a weapon? will he delegitimize the results? did you come away from your interview worried about what would happen the day after the election if he loses? >> firstly, it depends how big the loss is. >> that's what john podesta said this week when i asked him the same question. >> is it possible he goes on

from this election, which i actually continue to think he will lose, though i've been wrong about this entire year, i think he will try to -- he will take this and constitute this new sort of political movement, political party. >> media party. >> the media party. >> do you think he would end up on fox or cnn or having a reality show again? >> quite possibly. >> it would be the logical move, i suppose. >> yes, yes. >> and one more thing before you go. the relationship with aria manuel also came up in your article. he's one of the most powerful men in hollywood. powerful talent agent. what stood out? he said aria would program his convention for him. >> as importantly, aria manuel is from one of the great democratic families in the country. his brother rahm, who's the mayor of chicago, was obama's chief of staff. but i think you look at this in

a -- don't look at it in a political circumstance. aria manuel runs the biggest talent agency in the world. he makes money off of famous people. donald trump, as he told me, is the most famous man in the world. so obviously aria manuel would have a relationship with the most famous man in the world. >> i thought that was revealing, though, the idea that maybe he'd program the convention for him. emanuel came out and said, no, we will not be doing that. >> he said, actually, we have no plans to do that now. >> okay. good to keep that in mind. the convention is six weeks away. >> and it will be, if he does it, it will be about creatining fame rather than creating -- rather than showing off policies. >> right. michael, great to see you. thank you for being here. you can read the full interview on thr.com. coming up next on "reliable sources" has the press reached a turning point in the coverage of trump, or is that just wishful

thinking on the part of some columnis columnists? and later, bernie sanders saying the media will be wrong on tuesday if it calls the nomination for hillary clinton. what is the truth behind that? i'll share my reporting with you right after the break. started out,know whent it was all pencil and paper. the surface pro is very intuitive. with the pressure of my hand i can draw lightly, just like i would with a real pencil. i've been a forensic artist for over 30 years. i do the composite sketches which are the bad guy sketches. you need good resolution, powerful processor because the computer has to start thinking as fast as my brain does. i do this because i want my artwork to help people. they are. do i look smarter? yeah, a little. you're making money now, are you investing? well, i've been doing some research. let me introduce you to our broker. how much does he charge? i don't know. okay. uh, do you get your fees back if you're not happy? (dad laughs) wow, you're laughing.

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welcome back. what is it exactly that prompts trump's attacks against the media? i feel like we pay close attention to his insults, his critiques, his tweets. what but triggers his vitriol? let's take a look at the

questions reporters asked at that press conference on tuesday about his donations to veterans groups. here's how he interrupted and then seemed to insult cnn's jim acosta after acosta tried asking a question. >> to follow up on that, you keep calling us the dishonest press, the disgusting -- >> well, generally speaking, that's 100% true. >> i disagree with that, sir. it seems as though you're resistant to scrutiny, the kind of scrutiny that comes with running for the president of the united states. >> i like scrutiny, but you know what -- >> you raised money for veterans -- >> excuse me. i've watched you on television. you're a real beauty. >> i don't think he meant that about being a real beauty. let's take a look at another clip. first, everything looked okay for abc's tom yamas. >> the night of that iowa fundraiser, you said you had raised $6 million. clearly you had not. your critics say you tend to exaggerate. >> i raised almost $6 million.

some of it didn't come through, but more money is coming through than didn't come through. the number probably is going to be, when we finish, probably over the $6 million. >> so trump answered, ignored the follow-up, and moved on to the next reporter. it was clearly bothering him. about three minutes later, he said this about tom. >> i'm not looking for credit. but what i don't want is when i raise millions of dollars, have people say, like this sleazy guy right over here from abc. he's a sleaze in my book. you're a sleaze because you know the facts and you know the facts well. >> the insults are what got a lot of attention afterwards. but the journalists here are trying to hold trump accountable. let's talk about what it is that provokes him, what causes him to criticize the media, and whether any of it is legitimate or not. let me bring in a super panel to talk about this, beginning the editor and publisher of "the nation" magazine, and elizabeth

harrington from "the fr free beacon." i was talking about how he knows all the moguls, the bosses, and takes advantage of the press. yet he bullies journalists and sometimes blocks them from attending events. do you think in this case trump is showing how he would act if he does become president? >> absolutely. donald trump wants to delegitimize the media that isn't giving him a wet kiss. he doesn't understand the fundamental role of free media in a democracy. it's about asking tough, probing questions. he was angry about being held accountable. holding people accountable, exposing abuses, holding the powerful accountable. donald trump doesn't believe in a media like that. we saw this past week, brian, his assault on free press, rule of law, first amendment. this is the first step on the road to an american authoritarianism. donald trump wasn't created by

the media. we've tussled about that. the media, until recently, hasn't given enough scrutiny. now that he's getting it because he's the presumptive nominee, look how he treats it. that's a measure of the danger we confront in donald trump. >> let me flip it around and go to elizabeth on this. a more conservative site. liz betelizabeth elizabeth, when i hear donald trump attacking the press on one level, i think to myself a lot of viewers out there probably agree with him, probably take his side and not the media's side. do you think that is why he says this again and again and again against the media? >> yeah, i think he does it because it's a winning strategy. look, the confidence in the mainstream media, trust in the media is at all-time lows. i think he sees that as an opportunity for a win for him. just the way he treats his opponent -- the way he treated his opponents in the primary, he takes on the media in that same way. i think it's important to keep in mind, look, i think hillary and donald trump both have equal disdain for the media.

they just go about it in different ways. whereas, hillary, behind closed doors, her aides will say she hates the press, period, and her campaign will keep the media behind a rope line. trump will just go out and say it to their face. i think a lot of journalists don't like that, but you have to give him credit in a sense because he's out there for 45 minutes taking questions from reporters. they don't like the answers. they don't like him calling them losers, but hillary, we haven't seen her out on the campaign trail doing a 45-minute press conference. i think he uses it to his advantage because he gets all this attention and we keep talking about it. >> i'm going to ask clinton's press secretary about that in a few minutes. david, conservatives in particular like hearing trump bash the press because they don't trust the press. what do we in the media do to win people back, to convince them we are trustworthy and we're not sleazy, as donald trump said about one reporter? >> brian, we could do good journalism. that would be the best thing we could do. i think that goes back to your

first question when you said what was he reacting to. you know, at least twice on this show carl bernstein has called for the press -- essentially, don't try to compete with them in interviews. you're not going to beat them. just do dogged journalism. do investigative journalism. do biographical journalism. the kind of journalism bernstein did, of course. that's what he's been saying. i think one of the reasons he went off at this press conference was because of the journalism that was done about his money for veterans. "the washington post" really, really pushed him on it and did old-fashioned, real journalism. drew griffin, i think, is breathing down his neck. if you saw what he did on the va, you know how much that's got to worry somebody. and i think that was exactly the question from abc, sounded very precise, the first one you played about how much money. you said this, but this is what we have. that's what gets under his skin. he can run circles around any

interviewer in the business, although jake tapper gave him a real run for it on friday, and i was really happy to see that. but this is what will get him. if we continue to do it. the question is, do we have the will to do it? we have the resources, but are the owners going to spend the money to put people on him full time to bring down those kinds of issues. you said you were going to give the vets this money, and you didn't. >> elizabeth, do you agree that strong journalism, assertive journalism about trump and clinton would convert some conservative skeptics of the media? >> well, yes, absolutely. i mean, conservatives give mainstream outlets credit all the time for good reporting. "the new york times" story about the clinton foundation and the uranium deal with russia, that was something that conservatives really pointed to. but at the same time, trump really gets away with attacking the media when "the new york times" at the same time goes

after him with his treatment of women and the main source in the story coming out the next day and says that's not what i said. so there's problems with both sides of it. >> i don't think it's liberal or conservative in terms of good journalism, brian. i think we're looking -- in this election, we've seen a corporate media that is rigged against the public interest in certain cases. there are stories of executives saying, run that trump rally unfiltered. why? because media is making a lot of money on this election. on trump in particular. >> he makes news at rallies. >> there was a 12-minute segment where there's an empty podium waiting for trump to come out and hawk his steak and liquor. why does the media cover every trump twitter? what is the public interest? it's not left or right. >> let me jump in about something that i think would go a long way in helping

conservatives. if, when we say what a threat trump is to the press, and he is, all the things you listed i agree. but so far, nothing rivals what president obama did to james risen, did to james rosen, and did to the ap. trying to criminalize reporting. they called rosen a criminal coconspirator. eric holder wrote that to get the subpoena. they subpoenaed risen. ask risen what he called him. he said he's the biggest threat -- the obama administration was the biggest threat to the press in a generation. admit that, as we denounce trump, and conservatives will feel better about this. we can't let him have a -- you know, now president obama's very nice to the press because he's thinking about legacy, and it's donned on him we're going to be writing that legacy, at least in the first or second draft. but i'm serious. what happened to the press under obama was really deadly. and when you talk about delegitimizing -- and i agree

with katrina. she's absolutely right. think back to 2010 what he tried to do to fox when he didn't let them into some briefings and when he launched a campaign on "reliable sources" before your time, trying to delegitimize it. a lot of people feel it should be. that's not the argument. the executive does not say what a legitimate member of the press is, and he tried to do that. that's much more dangerous. >> i couldn't agree more with david. the nation has been at the fore front of, one, calling for ending this odious campaign against whistle blowers and leakers. it is a threat to our democracy. on the other hand, you have president obama, someone who understands the limits of the executive and understands the role of the judiciary. but there's no question that this administration has posed a great threat to freedom of press. you've got to call it like it is. agree with david. but at the same time, i think trump doesn't understand the role of a press in a democracy. >> doesn't understand or maybe just doesn't care. i wonder if it's not caring.

>> oh, i think he cares deeply about the media when it gives him a wet kiss. he's a great media manipulator. >> and that's this love/hate thic thing. that's the bottom line. katrina, thank you for being here. david, lelizabeth, please stick around if you can. we mentioned these interviews with donald trump. they're coming up in the next hour. trump, clinton, and bernie sanders all at the top of the hour. we'll be back here in a moment with more "reliable sources." stick with us. luxury cars just seem like they would be top awarded. better be some awards behind what you are paying for, right? the final answer. chevy. the most awarded car company two years in a row. wow, it's like a luxury car. i was shocked. i mean it's like, this is chevy? get cash back for 20% of the msrp on all 2016 spark, sonic and impala vehicles. that's over $8000 on this chevy impala.

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welcome back to "reliable sources." i'm brian stelter. the hillary clinton campaign strategies are changing, and you can see it every day here on cable news. she's attacking donald trump in new ways, and she's even calling in to cnn newscasts, the same way he does. will she start granting trump-style press conferences next? earlier, i asked her press

secretary. >> there's been this perception for weeks, really months, that donald trump is dominating every single news cycle. you've been saying that's okay. you don't mind him dominating the news cycle because you don't think that's the same as winning. what's your argument here? >> well, let me just say firstly that i would prefer if, say, media didn't show donald trump's them my podium instead of taking hillary clinton's comments live. but in terms of the reality that donald trump is always going to be willing to say the more provocative thing, the oftentimes trafficking and bigotry and misogyny and openly embracing offensive comments, it's going to command news attention because of the fact that it's just simply unfathomable that in 2016, a major party candidate would be willing to say these things and then when he's called out on them still defend them as opp e opposed to retreat from them. >> i was at this fancy

conference this weekend. some clinton finance committee people. what they say privately is that they're worried that, the clinton campaign doesn't understand what they're up against, doesn't understand trump's manipulation of the media. and these are democrats. what do you say to them? >> i would say this. number one, we are in the going to let any of these offensive statements go without notice. we're going to call him out in realtime. hillary clinton has been doing that. on any given day when you see donald trump make waves for some provocative, offensive statement, hillary clinton will frequently call him out in realtime, oftentimes phoning in herself to shows like wolf blitzer on cnn. >> let me ask you about that. we have been seeing her call in to cable news shows. is that going to continue for the next four to five months? >> we have a variety of different methods and vehicles for communicating our pushback on this, but i think that the bottom line is that she's not going to let any of these comments go unchallenged. she is going to, in ways that the republican party foes in the primary that were vanquished by trump were never able to do, she's going to take the fight to

him. i also think it's important to also create a positive narrative about her own candidacy. she has to also simultaneously communicate to the voters why they should want to vote for her and not just reject donald trump. however, importantly, part of our strategy is to continue to communicate directly to voters in these battleground states, to continue to earn media opportunities with local television affiliates, local radio outlets. >> so local as opposed to national cable. that's interesting. >> i think what you've seen has worked during the primary. hillary clinton has run a campaign that's been very attentive to local issues in these primary states. now we'll in a general election shift to battleground states. our campaign has been very attentive to those issues, weighing in on local issues that are putting her on the side of working class families and working with the local media to bring attention to those issues and her positions on those issues. i think we can communicate at multiple levels. we can tell the story about what a hillary clinton presidency would mean, how she'd go about trying to make a difference for people in their every day lives.

also in the national cable environment, communicate why we think donald trump is so unacceptable and call him out and challenge him on a day-to-day basis. >> many reporters would say the clinton campaign is not accessible enough, that clinton herself is not accessible enough. they point to her lack of press conferences as an example. donald trump, of course, had that very intense press conference earlier this week. will we see your candidate start to meet the press in press conference formats? >> well, i think, again, we realize the need to be accessible and responsive to questions. we're going to continue to do that in a variety of formats. so sometimes that will mean an emphasis on local radio or local television in print interviews. just the other day when she was in california, i think she did five or six different radio interviews across california. other days it will mean doing an availability with our traveling press corps at the back of the plane. >> but the questions she's going to get from local media are different than cnn or "the new york times." >> right. it needs to be a mix. we're going to continue to do national press availabilities with our traveling press corps,

press conferences sometimes as well. >> but you're getting hammered for this lack of press conferences. what's the reason for her reluctance? >> there's no reluctance. oftentimes we'll do an event at the end of the day. we'll do an avail, what would be known as an avail to the people in your business, where she informally comes out after an event has concluded, after she's taken some photos and selfies, and she'll literally stand there for 15, 20 minutes and answer questions from her traveling press corps. in terms of a definition of calling something an availability versus a press conference, oftentimes is just defined by whether you have a banner behind you or a podium in front of you. bottom line is she's answering questions from reporters covering her day to day. >> you have so many staffers on the press team. does it blow you away that donald trump basically has himself and one press secretary? >> well, donald trump likes to talk to the reporters himself. he's his own flak. i don't know that that's the

most -- best way to deal with it, but it's certainly what he's decided works for him. i have a lot of admiration and respect for hope hicks just for the amount of income she has to deal with. >> she's the press secretary. >> yeah. i have a lot of admiration for her just from the standpoint of the volume she has to handle personally. >> have you ever talked to her, ever shared advice or tips? >> no, but i'm sure there'll come a point we can have that intersection later in the ca campaign. >> let's do that here on "reliable sources." thanks so much for being here. >> thanks. from clinton to her rival bernie sanders. this tuesday, the final super tuesday, mark sanders' last stand? is that simple math or media bias? one of sanders' biggest boosters in the press joins me next. it's funny that i've been in the news for being a dad. windows 10 is great because i need to keep organized. school, grocery shopping. my face can unlock this computer. that's crazy. macbooks are not able to do that. "hey cortana, remind me we have a play date tomorrow at noon"

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welcome back. you're going to hear a lot of talk this week about crossing the threshold. donald trump did it last month, securing enough delegates to clinch the gop nomination. barring some shocking, unprecedented outcome in california, hillary clinton will do the same thing on tuesday. the magic number for her is

2,383. looking at the scoreboard here today, clinton is far ahead of bernie sanders. she has 1,769 pledged delegates, plus according to cnn's count, 544 super delegates, who are free to vote for anyone at the convention. bernie sanders has 1,501 pledged delegates and 46 super delegates. clinton is only about 70 delegates a i wway from the mag number. experts believe she's win new jersey, and that is what will put her over the top. sanders says the media should not call the race for her. watch. >> hillary clinton will not have the requisite number of pledged delegates to win the democratic nomination at the end of the nominating process on june 14th. won't happen. she will be dependent upon super delegates, and what the dnc says is that the media is wrong. so when i hear media talking about, well, we're going to announce it at 8:00 eastern

standard time, then it's all over. you're wrong. >> let me take you behind the scenes. this is pretty important. the networks are not going to say it's all over, but the networks and the associated press will most likely say she's crossed the necessarily threshold to become the nominee. it'll probably sound a lot like this. this clip is from 2008 when barack obama hit the magic number. >> cnn can now project that senator barack obama has enough delegates to secure the democratic presidential nomination. senator barack obama goes over the threshold, goes over 2,118 delegates. he will be the democratic presidential nominee based on our projections of the delegate count right now. >> that's what you can expect to hear on tuesday night, assuming clinton does get the necessary number of delegates. however, there will be lots of caveats, lots of acknowledgments that if the super delegates change their minds, maybe that title goes away from her. progressive journalists and commentators that side with sanders say the media is part of

the problem here. one of them is the host, ceo, and founder of the online news show the young turks. thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me, brian. >> why do you think it's wrong for the media to acknowledge the facts, the facts are the super delegates are largely on clinton's side and probably not going to move based on the interviews we've done with them. why is it wrong for the media to acknowledge that on tuesday night? >> because they aren't facts at all. so first, let's just acknowledge what are actual facts. the super delegates do not vote until the convention. if they're not at the convention, their votes won't get counted at all. >> but they're all establishment people. they're all voting for clinton. only 46 for sanders. >> brian, you guys, and i mean cnn and all of the establishment press, totally tilted the playing field here from day one by counting those super delegates, when in fact you know the super delegates do switch their votes all the time. they switched it in 2008. hillary clinton had 100 super delegate lead, which completely vanished in 2008.

>> were the media wrong in 2008? >> -- absolutely incorrect. it was, in fact, journalistic malpractice. why did you guys do that? >> so you're saying more information is not a good thing? we should hide people from the reality of what the super delegates are thinking? >> no, no, no, no. brian, this is very important. if you say, hey, super delegates are likely to vote this way, or they say they're voting this way an aside, that's perfectly fair. if you count them in the official tally when you know they can and often do switch their votes and have not voted yet, that is simply incorrect. that is not a fact. that is the opposite of a fact. >> but the hillary delegates switched because obama was going to win. in this case, we know the super delegates are establishment figures, former governors and things like that, that are clearly pro-clinton. nothing is going to happen that's going to change their mind. >> again, not true. brian, you say nothing is going to happen -- >> what's going to happen? tell me. >> i can tell you exactly what could happen. >> are you wishing for an indictment? >> hold on. they are for extraordinary

circumstances. you know what would be extraordinary? if one of the candidates were indicted. of course. so you guys keep assuming there will be no indictment. brian, i hear you have reliable sources. so tell me, do you have any sources inside the fbi or the state department that have already told you that she is not doing to get indicted? because that would be news. >> i do not. i cover media, not the fbi. but the indications at the moment are that she hasn't been interviewed by the fbi. i hear what you're saying about the indictment, but other than that, it seems to me you're misleading your audience, giving them more hope than they should actually have. think about what's going to happen on tuesday. new jersey is going to close for the first time in the history of this country. we're going to have a female nominee of a major party. i don't care if you're republican or democrat or libertarian. that's something this country should note and acknowledge. don't you think it's a shame that the bernie sanders talk is going to overshadow what we can all agree is a historic milestone? >> i mean, look at the framing you just gave it, right.

i think hillary clinton is a completely pro-establishment candidate that will continue this corrupt system where private interests finance the elections -- >> what about the historic milestone? >> instead of looking at it as, hey, wait, one guy hasn't taken that corrupting money and the other has, you frame it as male versus female and put me in a position where i'm forced to say, no, i don't think it would be historic because i think it's the same old establishment, whether it's male or female or anything else. the framing is all biased. i'm not saying that because i think that you're a liberal or conservative or pro-hillary or not. it's just the establishment told us from day one the super delegates have already voted when they did not. you tell us today to, hey, make sure you go away and support the establishment candidate. and you're wrong about how i presented it on the show. i tell people about the delegate math all the time. as bernie sanders himself acknowledges, it's an uphill battle for him to win more pledged delegates. a massive uphill battle. i've challenged bernie sanders on my program. i said, look, if there are more

pledged delegates on her side and there's no indictment, well, then the race is over, right? those are ifs. they have not happened yet. the super delegates vote at the convention. so for you guys to call it when you don't know what the circumstances are, and those people have not voted yet, it is just simply incorrect. that is not journalism. >> thank you for being here. great talking with you. >> thank you for having me. i appreciate that. >> coming up next here, we're going to talk more -- actually, first, a reminder. donald trump, clinton, and sanders are all on "state of the union" coming up in 15 minutes. up next, why the nra wants katie couric fired. this summer at choice hotels the more you go the better. now get a free $50 gift card for staying just 2 times. so go. book now at choicehotels.com. you always have a choice.

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heart of two unrelated stories right now, and both examples have been exposed by conservative news sources. one involves the state department. the new with uncalled the new documentary "under the gun" produced by katie couric. this week couric said she took responsibility. let me show you the scene. this is couric interviewing a group of gun rights activists. notice what happens after she asks her question. >> let me ask you another question. if there are no background checks for gun purchasers, how do you prevent felons or terrorists from purchasing a gun? >> eight seconds of silence, making the activists look ignorant, like they didn't have an answer. the truth is they responded to her question right away. now the nra wants katie couric fired. you can see the tweet right there. meanwhile, gun control groups are rallying to her defense. here's the head of the bray did i campaign thanking her for standing up to bullies and telling the truth.

let me bring back elizabeth harrington and david zurwick. elizabeth, "the free beacon" has led the way on this story. she said she was trying to add that pause in order to let are you satisfied by what the director and what the executive producer have said? >> i don't think so. what katie couric said is she raised objections to this initially. >> while it was being edited. >> once the editor said we only added this pause for dramatic effect, she was, like, okay, that's fine. it's not fine. it's totally misleading. the eight seconds -- in fact, this gun rights group defended themselves very well against the question and it's really so misleading and a blatant lie to show that eight-second pause without anything. it's a documentary. they shouldn't be saying, well,

this makes it more dramatic and this is the way we should go. she should stick with the facts and what actually happened. >> obviously it is a point of view documentary. david, is there any way to defend that kind of edit that was made? >> absolutely not, brian. really, if i vented the contempt i have for that dishonesty in the documentary format, i would drop over right now from a stroke. it's outrageous. what you call the b.s. explanation absolutely. that was so bad. i couldn't believe it. we wanted the listener to pause and think about it. and lie upon lie. dishonest documentary makers are one of the lowest forms of life in media. >> we were talking earlier in the hour about donald trump attacking the media and how conservatives are skeptical. there's reason for them to be skeptical and reasons like this perpetuate that narrative. let's head to another controversy at the state department.

this goes back to 2013 about a news briefing involving the u.s. and iran's secret nuclear talks. a portion of that video was deleted at the request of an unnamed state department official and now republicans are demanding an investigation. this is something fox news was involved in. james rosen asked the question in 2014 and fox has been rounding the government for answers. we might not agree on fox on everything but this is an example of fox really getting to the bottom of this and getting answers, isn't it? >> it's absolutely true. james rosen has done that before. we mentioned him in the earlier block about how they went after him on reporting on the state department. beyond that, that's outrageous since the start since we mentioned since 2010, this administration has tried to control fox in a way and cut it from the herd and delegitimize it is what they tried to do. i tell you what though is troubling to me in a deeper sense. this is the historical record in a way. this is the historical record of

a government agency. you don't -- you don't just try to punish fox. you cheat the american people when you start cutting things out of that official video of that. and then for their explanations and they are still telling us we don't know who did it. we don't have the means or whatever to find that out. that's outrageous. they could find it out now and somebody should be held accountable. really, i hate to say it. the obama administration war with the press, this is part of it. whether you like the ideology of that channel or not, it's part of the press. you don't do these kind of things with it if you're the executive branch. the founders didn't know about video but they knew about the executive branch and first amendment and free press and importance of it to democracy. >> i'm out of time here. thank you both for being here talking through these stories with me. when we come back, a moment to return muhammad ali and his relationship with the media.

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welcome back. the world lost an icon on friday night when boxing legend muhammad ali passed away at the age of 74. he became a worldwide celebrity foreshadowing the stars we see today from the sports world and beyond. first, earning olympic gold in 1960 and then the boxing heavyweight champion of the world title in 1964. a title he would hold not one but three times. his use of the media was amazing. really foreshadowing what we see today. on one hand he used it to intimidate opponents. look at this interview with howard cosell. >> good luck. i hope it's not an act. i hope you mean it. >> if it's an act, look at my record and see if other fights have been acts? >> not so far. >> what makes you think i'm

acting? >> and with that final stage of the act -- >> he used the media to put a lens on issues outside of the ring, whether it was his announcement in 1964 he was changing his name to muhammad ali and converting to islam. a shocking move for an athlete of his notoriety at the time or the move to object to it the vietnam war resulting in the loss of had is title and a jail sentence which ultimately he did not serve. instead of receding into the background because of his long-term battle with parkinson's disease, he gave voice to people suffering from the debilitating disease by holding the olympic torch on live television in 1996 for the world to see. all this from one man, controversial, complex and compassionate, he truly was the greatest of all time. that's all for this televised

edition of "reliable sources." our media coverage continues online. sign up for our newsletter at cnn.com. stay tuned now. "state of the union" with jake tapper starts right now. golden state warriors. it's crunch time here in california. >> california strong. >> with the final major contest just days away, the candidates are all here, and they are all talking to us. trump. >> hillary clinton is a stiff. >> clinton. >> on tuesday, i will have decisively won the popular vote. >> sanders. >> if the turnout is very, very large, i think we have a chance to win big. >> as violent protests continue. and racial tensions rise. >> she's a mexican. >> can california change the