this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. we'll start today's show with brexit, of course. britain's decisive, stunning, and deeply consequential vote to leave the european union. markets have tumbled, the political fallout has just begun -- >> i think the country requires

fresh leadership to take it in this direction. >> so what does it mean for the world and for america? i've assembled an all-star panel to discuss the economic and political impact. and then a former top state department official on why he publicly urged britain not to leave and where do we do from here. and imagine being on an isis hit list. this man doesn't have to imagine it. the terror group has made clear it wants to kill him. the inside story from one of america's top muslim leaders. and from the collapse of the soviet union to post-9/11 afghanistan, one of the country's finest writers, andrew solomon, has seen it all, and he tells us what he learned.

but first, here's my take. i can't remember a more event-filled 24 hours since the end of the cold war. on friday morning, britain voted to withdraw from the european union, ending a decades' old deeply intertwined political association. then, scotland's first minister proposed a vote to break away from britain, ending the 300-year union between them. the leaders in northern ireland floated a similar idea. meanwhile, the british prime minister announced that he would resign the head of the opposition labor party might well be forced out as well, oh, and global markets lost $2 trillion of value all in one day. the economic and political consequences of brexit will become clearer in the weeks and months ahead. it seems to me there is going to be considerable remorse and regret among those who voted for brexit without really understanding what it meant. but however that plays out, there is one lesson that i think we can take from the brexit referendum regardless that applies across the english channel to other european countries and across the atlantic to the united states.

we are now watching the emergence of a new political divide that is likely to shape the politics of the western world for the next 50 years. who voted for brexit? 68% of britons who did not finish high school, according to "the wall street journal." and who voted against it, in other words who voted to stay in europe? 70% of college graduates. those who voted for brexit were disproportionately older, white, working class, less educated, and poorer. those who voted to remain in europe were younger, ethnically diverse, better educated, and better off. these divisions will sound familiar to americans because for the most part, they mirror the divide we are seeing in this presidential election. the single factor that best predicts a trump voter is a college degree. if you have it, you say you will vote against him. if you don't, you're for him.

"the commission -- "the economist" recently did a survey of europe's little trumps, the series of populists who are gaining ground across the continent. looking at the data, it concluded that, quote, support for xenophobic populism is strongest among those who are older, non-university educated, working class, white, and male. those against, again, tended to be younger, educated, working in service and professional jobs, and comfortable with diversity. this divide is rooted in the central reality of our times, a world that is being reshaped by globalization and technology. these forces produce enormous advances but also enormous disruptions, rendering obsolete companies, indeed entire industries within just years. but it's not just about economics. the most disruptive element of all has turned out to be not the free and fast movement of goods, services, and information but people. the migration of people in and out of countries has produced an

emotional backlash against immigration, refugee, and indeed the entire idea of globalization. economic issues affect the head. identity issues hit the heart. this is the new divide in the western world. on the one hand, there will be those who view an open world, globalization and technological change as broadly beneficial. and there are others who regard these same forces as threatening and destructive. the latter want to have protections of various kinds. increase sovereignty, tariffs, border controls to make their countries great again. parties that now contain elements of both will have internal conflicts, as is

happening with britain's stories and the republican party in the united states. donald trump, for example, would like to remake the republicans into a populist, nationalist, and xenophobic party. whether or not he succeeds, his compatriots in britain won a big battle on friday. but the largest struggle will go on, and the new politics of our age will not be left versus right but open versus closed. and let's get started. ♪ let's get right to it with our all-star panel. joining us from london, ann applebaum, pulitzer prize winning historian and columnist for "the washington post." from abbington, andrew roberts. thank you all for being here. zany, let me begin with us. the the economic fallout is something everyone is trying to understand. at some level, the markets have actually not collapsed quite as much as one might have thought.

there has not been the kind of financial crisis type panic. what do you see going forward? >> well, i think it's partly a case of not yet, perhaps. i think that has a lot to do with the very calming influence on friday of the central banks, particularly the governor of the bank of england. i think you're right that this is unlikely to be a cataclysmic market event unless we have much greater political uncertainty in britain. we seem to be getting that very fast right now. i think the question that's going to be a long and grinding impact, you've got huge uncertainty about what britain's relationship with the european union's going to be. no one is going to invest in the uk. as a result, there has to be a repricing of uk assets. the uk is almost certainly going to go into recession. in the long run, it's going to be much poorer. that could have very big consequences for the global economy too. >> ann, you follow this with two

hats on. you spend a lot of time in london, but you also have a house in poland. you're married to the former foreign minister of poland. what does this look like from the continent? >> first of all, it's important to know that the continent didn't expect it at all. it was led to believe by cameron and the people around him that everything was under control. one of the interesting things you see both in britain and europe in the last 24 hours is that really nobody is prepared. there's no blueprint. there's no eu blueprint. the government is not prepared. a civil servant told me yesterday that there is no plan, nobody knows exactly how this is going to be carried out. the only person who seems to have a plan in britain is nicolas sturgeon, who seems to know where she's going. she wants to take scotland out of the uk. she knows what's going forward. everything else is up in the air. the continent, just so that you understand, is divided. there's a group who want to make this as easy as possible for britain, maybe even try and convince britain to stay in, do

a good deal. then there's another part -- there's another mood that says, no, you know, they left, they want to leave, they've been a problem for 20 years, let's kick them out and make sure that they don't inspire anybody else. there's no resolution yet to that conversation, which is going on inside europe but also even inside germany, inside the largest european country. >> andrew roberts, you were in favor of leaving. i'm wondering, watching all this, all these consequences, are you having any second thoughts? you think boris johnson is having any second thoughts? >> no, not at all. and it's not true we haven't got a plan. boris johnson and michael gove have got a plan. the drawback is neither of them are prime minister. with any luck, one of them will be prime minister by the time the torrie party conference meets in october. then they're going to get down

to implementing their plan. you can't start negotiations until you actually know who's going to be in charge of those negotiations. they're going to be very difficult negotiations. there's going to be a lot of brinksmanship. you have to have somebody who, a, was in favor of leaving the european union, and, b, is fully up to a plan. >> but what is the plan, andrew, if i may ask? as i understand it, the association agreements, they run into thousands and thousands of pages. britain is going to want to sell goods to the european union, which means it will have to comply with most eu directives and regulations anyway. or it has to have separate association agreements with 27 different countries. what is it going to be? >> well, it's not going to be part of the single market. i think that's pretty clear. some people say that it's going to take part of the single market provisions, but actually if you do that, you also have to have free movement of peoples. one of the really serious things that this vote showed was that

majority of the british people actually want to have controlled immigration. we want to be able to choose who comes to this country. so as a result, you're not going to be able to have both. this is why. it's going to be such a tough negotiation. and why, as i say, you need to have a prime minister who's committed to the ultimate will of the british people as expressed on thursday. >> zanny, quickly, before we take a break, do you think, to ann's point, will the europeans end up being tough or will they be practical and conciliatory? merkel, who seems to be the most powerful figure here, signaled she was not going to be very tough. >> i think in the end they're going to be practical. the problem is that the people who wanted to leave, the leave campaign promised the british people a trifecta of things they can't have. they promised basically that nothing would change very much economically, and britain would be better off, but there would be control over immigration and britain would no longer have to pay in the eu budget. the reality is if we are not in

the single market, as andrew seems to be suggesting, the economic damage to this country is going to be very considerable. so if we want to control borders and control immigration, we're not going to be in the single market. that will mean a britain that is much poorer than it otherwise would have been. >> we're going to do much more. stay with me. my all-star panel will continue when we return. meet godawgs, the fastest food truck in brooklyn. meet mylanta® tonight. it's also fast, but unlike godawgs, it makes heartburn after dinner, history. new mylanta® tonight. faster than heartburn. don'tlive in tokyo. when you airbnb, you have your own home. so, live there. even if it's just for a night. weinto a new american century. born with a hunger to fly and a passion to build something better.

and what an amazing time it's been, decade after decade of innovation, inspiration and wonder. so, we say thank you america for a century of trust, for the privilege of flying higher and higher, together. ♪ having acne... ...was always on my mind. so i asked a dermatologist about new aczone dapsone gel 7.5%. i apply it once a day, any time. aczone gel 7.5% is fda approved for the topical treatment of acne for people 12 years and older. aczone gel is a once-a-day acne treatment with clinically proven results. in clinical trials, acne got better for people using aczone gel in just 12 weeks. aczone gel may cause the serious side effect of methemoglobinemia, which decreases oxygen in your blood. stop taking aczone gel and get medical help right away if your lips, mouth, or nails turn grey or blue. talk to your doctor if you have g6pd deficiency. using benzoyl peroxide with aczone gel

may cause skin or facial hair to temporarily turn yellow or orange where applied. common side effects of aczone gel include dryness and itching of treated skin. now, i have less acne to think about because i use aczone gel. you could pay as little as $15 for aczone gel. learn more at aczone.com aczone. prescription treatment. proven results. and you're talking to your doctor about your medication... this is humira. this is humira helping to relieve my pain and protect my joints from further damage. this is humira helping me go further. humira works for many adults. it targets and helps to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. doctors have been prescribing humira for over 13 years. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb.

tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. ready for a new chapter? talk to your rheumatologist. this is humira at work. mr. president we're on mars. switch to a video call... sure, we can do that. congrat... picture from mars looks great. it's about time business communications caught up. go from an audio call to a video conference with the push of a button. vonage. business grade. people friendly.

and still haveealthy, gum disease. use gum® brand for healthy gums. soft-picks®. proxabrush® cleaners. flossers and dental floss. gum® brand. and we are back with our panel from london, talking about brexit.

ann, the issue that seems to have rarely won for the brexit forces was migration. it seemed as though the economic issues, people understood that maybe britain would suffer, but immigrants, migration turned out to be the big issue. it's the issue that's reshaping the politics of europe. is it not? this is not just an english or british phenomenon. >> no, what was really interesting about the election campaign was not just that immigration became the main issue, but that immigration became an issue that was more important than the economy. so there were some of the leading brexit campaigners who would say, well, the stock market will crash, prices will go down, we'll be out of the single market, the economy will suffer, and they would say, so what? i think we're at a point where our traditional idea of how politics is conducted in the west, you know, that it's all an argument about how to make people more prosperous, how to make the economy work better, i think we're coming to the end of

that period, and we're coming to a period where people want to argue over something more existential, about national identity, about who they are, about what kind of country they live in. you're right, this is not just britain. this is taking place in almost every country in europe. you can certainly find people or parties who want to have that conversation, who want to stop the old economic conversation about, you know, how to we make people more prosperous, which is the conversation that led us to globalization, and switch it to something else, which is how do we keep our country the way we want it to be or the way we think it used to be. >> zanny, is there a solution to that issue? because at the heart of the common market, as you point out, is the free movement of people. there are hundreds of thousands of east europeans living and working in london and paying taxes. is there a way to get the benefits of economic globalization without this free movement of people? >> well, i think there's certainly going to be a conversation certainly in this country and within europe about what limits you might put on the free movement of people or how you can have the principle but

prevent really extreme surges. i think it's important to think about this is people -- a lot of the people, as you said in your introduction, who were voting against this, it's not that they don't care about economics, they just don't feel they benefitted from the economic boom. they've had a very, very tough time in the past few years since the financial crisis. their living standards have gone down. i think in many ways, this is much as it is in america. 'protest of anger against stagnant living styles, a feeling that those metropolitan elites in london you know, the establishment, don't understand what life is like for the rest of people in britain. i think this begs the question, for those of us who believe in globalization, what can we do to shore up support for that? i think it demands a kind of progressive agenda that ensures that enough of those people see gains that they are willing to retain some openness. i think it's incumbent on everybody who wants to get those gains to come up with a much better response. this country, remember, we've had years of austerity. the reason people were cross,

it's not that -- some people are xenophobic, but a lot of people who voted to leave are not at all xenophobic. they're worried, can they get a doctor's appointment, overcrowded school rooms, rising house prices. very real problems, which are the result of insufficient public investment. in some sense the result of all sisterity politics. >> andrew, let me ask you about the personality issues involved here. here you have david cameron, a moderate -- >> just before you do, sorry, i wonder whether i could pick up a point of zanny's. i agree with everything she said about schools and hospitals. one of the points about the schools and hospitals is if you don't know how many people are coming in, you can't plan. if you know it's going to be 170,000 because you've got controlled or managed immigration, then you can actually plan. if you suddenly promise the people that it's going to be fewer than 100,000 and it turns out to be 330,000, as it was last year, of course all planning just goes out the window. >> so andrew, let me ask you

about the personalities. david cameron, moderate conservative, i think hoped he would be remembered as the man who brought the conservative party to the center on many issues, various kinds of social reforms. it seems as though he will be remembered as the man who took britain out of europe and perhaps who broke britain up if scotland and northern ireland do, in fact, leave. do you think he wishes he now would have never made this decision to bring this to a referendum? >> oh, of course, he must feel that. he must feel that, and understandably so. he did it in order to try and stop the uk independence party in its tracks in the 2015 election. to an extent, he succeeded in that. they've got no mps that were elected at least. so in that sense, it was successful. but the price he had to pay, of course, has now turned out to be the price of his political career. he was a one-nation conservative, a moderate

conservative. i think, by the way, he'll be followed by another one, if it is boris johnson. but nonetheless, i think it ends his political career -- his political career ends in tragedy in a way it didn't need to. >> ann, when you look at this, i'm wondering, is there some scenario in which boris johnson becomes the new prime minister, recognizes the costs involved here, and tries, as have other countries when they've had referendums, to renegotiate a new treaty with germany, with the europeans, and come up with some face-saving compromise so that britain doesn't leave after all, or is this final? >> there are two problems with that. one is the nature of the campaign, which by the end was very aggressive and which promised people a good deal. it promised them not only a halt to immigration, it also promised them money that would come back

from the eu by the way of using false statistics, promising money that doesn't exist. it promised them improvements. it became a political campaign about things that were going to be done for britain. if that isn't delivered or if he isn't seen to be delivering it, i think there may be a huge outcry. the other problem is europe. as i said, the continent is divided. some people want to do a deal with britain, as you suggested, and there will be some people who are bitterly against it. that argument hasn't everyone been had yet. it hasn't been won. we don't know who's going to lead it. if it's merkel and a moderate tory, then yes, something could be done. but you may quickly get an acceleration of the problem and a clash of personalities that would make it difficult. >> zanny, very quickly, last thought, could this possibly be good for new york in the sense that will london collapse as an alternative financial capital to new york?

>> you know, i don't think this is good for anybody, frankly. london will be dented as a financial capital, if we leave the -- depending on how we leave it. but european weakness, british weakness is in some broad sense not good for anybody. maybe a few people gain in new york, but frankly they would be far better off with a vibrant britain and a vibrant europe. i don't think this is good for anyone. >> on that somber note, thank you all. fascinating panel. next on "gps," a former top state department official on how brexit extends well beyond britain in europe, and of course what it means for the united states. just great coverage. it's t-mobile! only t-mobile's lets you stream video and music - for free! and we doubled our lte coverage in the last year. the other guys can't say that! we got you covered. hmmmmm....... [ "dreams" by beck ] hmmmmm...

the turbocharged dream machine. the volkswagen golf gti. named one of car and driver's 10best, 10 years in a row. real milk vs. almond milk ingredient spelling bee lecithin lecithin. l-e-s (buzzer sound) your word is milk. m-i-l-k milk wins. ingredients you can spell.

♪ the sun'll come out for people with heart failure, tomorrow is not a given. but entresto is a medicine that helps make more tomorrows possible. ♪ tomorrow, tomorrow... ♪ i love ya, tomorrow in the largest heart failure study ever. entresto helped more people stay alive and out of the hospital than a leading heart failure medicine. women who are pregnant must not take entresto. it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren. if you've had angioedema while taking an ace or arb medicine, don't take entresto. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure... ...kidney problems, or high potassium in your blood. ♪ tomorrow, tomorrow i love ya, tomorrow.♪ ask your heart doctor about entresto. and help make tomorrow possible. ♪ you're only a day away ♪

♪ "dinner!" "may i be excused?" get the new xfinity tv app and for the first time ever stream live tv, watch on demand, and download your dvr shows anywhere.

president obama has warned of the consequences of a british withdrawal from the eu but he also assured the uk that the special relationship would endure. my next against once advised obama on this issue, and he can tell us what brexit means for us across the atlantic. philip gordon, a former joins us now from berlin. gordon is currently a senior fellow at the council on foreign relations. thanks for joining us, phil. let me ask you specifically what it means. and let me take a specific issue. s russia annexes crimea.

the united states urges the eu to enact tough sanctions against russia. in those kinds of situations, is it that britain was always shared america's mind set, had the same kinds of ideas and goals, and that we will miss that atlantic orientation that britain provided to the european union on issues like dealing with russia, dealing with china, iraq, afghanistan. >> yes, fareed. that's a really good specific example to take. we always want a european union that is outward looking, strong, like minded. we counted on britain to be our voice within that european union. we counted on a britain that had the political capital and focus and time to spend on being a

global like minded power like us. ukraine sanctions is a good example. it was a heated debate. we have an interest in maintaining them to keep pressure on russia, to improve the situation in ukraine, and once britain formally leaves the european union, their voice will be absent in that debate. so, you know, a lot of this is amorphous, general, vague, about partnerships, but that is a specific example where once britain leaves, it will be a setback to u.s. interests. >> and do you think the united states would then be dealing with a german dominated europe? >> well, you know, you put it in terms of german dominated europe, that evokes all sorts of fears and apprehensions, which indeed exist.

and that's one of the reasons why germans, and i'm sitting here in berlin and have heard their reactions to this, are uncomfortable. they deeply wanted britain to stay in because they are not entirely comfortable with the responsibility that goes with that leadership and the reactions to it that are very real in other european countries. all of that said, yes, inevitably, this means that the united states, which has already been working very significantly with berlin on global challenges as germany plays an increasing role. ukraine sanctions is a good example where essentially germany has led and designed the policy we're working with them on. inevitably, we will turn more to germany because, as i say, britain won't be at the table anymore. the european union, you know, we still have nato and bilateral partnerships and always will, but the eu has been playing an

increasing role. ukraine sanctions is one example. iran sanctions was another. whatever you think of the iranian nuclear deal, i don't think anyone thinks they would have been at the table had there not been an eu oil embargo. that embargo resulted from a lot of debates and discussions at the eu table. it was nice to have britain at that table. it looks like we won't have britain at that table anymore. >> phil, let me ask you about the question i asked earlier. is it conceivable that britain will stay in? in other words, you know the way these things work. after a while, the new prime minister approaches europeans and says, well, what about if these three criteria satisfy and we negotiate a new treaty and i do a second referendum? how likely is that to happen? >> it is unlikely, but it's also not crazy. you can see a path. that's the thing about this.

the answer to most of these questions is we just don't know. this referendum clearly is the start of a process and not the ends of a process. it starts a process that will begin with trying to figure out the terms of the withdrawal, which will already be incredibly complicated as they pick apart exactly what it means to withdrawal. then there will inevitably be some new relationship between britain and the european union. we just don't know what it is, how much of the single market, how much free movement of labor, what sort of other arrangements. i don't think it's completely crazy to imagine a scenario whereby once they start down that road and they realize that all of the other options are bad, i mean, that's one of the things i think the brits will realize. the norway option is bad. the switzerland option is bad. the canada option, free trade union, is bad. they might start to say, well, can we rebuild something, and pretty soon it starts to look

like european union membership. i think it's unlikely still because that would mean, you know, 17 million people very specifically said they didn't want to be members of the eu, but that's how it feels today, two days after the vote. if instability in britain really starts to rise, markets don't recover, scotland starts to begin the process of withdrawing from the eu and in northern ireland there's movement as well because they don't want to border. then the europeans respond by putting things on the table. new leaders come to power. you have elections in france and germany next year. then new leadership in britain. this is going to go on for a year or two or more. at that point, is it impossible to say, you know what, we would rather have a different membership of the european union rather than not be members. i don't think it's completely impossible. remember, when boris johnson first came out, you know, nobody knew which way he would lean. when he first came out against -- when he first came out for leaving, what he said was we need a better deal. so already there's the notion that there is going to be some relationship between britain and the eu, and you could imagine getting to a point where that relationship is actually membership. it's not crazy, but it's unlikely. >> phil gordon, thank you. stay with us.

we'll be back with more gps. i've been blind since birth. i go through periods where it's hard to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day. learn about non-24 by calling 844-844-2424. or visit my24info.com. the possibility of a flare was almost always on my mind. thinking about what to avoid, where to go... and how to deal with my uc. to me, that was normal. until i talked to my doctor. she told me that humira helps people like me get uc under control and keep it under control when certain medications haven't worked well enough. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems,

serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. raise your expectations. ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, control is possible. nice to meet you! today we're going to talk about the all-new 2016 chevy cruze, but here's the catch. you're only going to answer me in emojis. so, this cruze has built-in 4g lte wifi® with 24 gigs of data. wow. (message sent sfx) strong! it also comes with 24 months of siriusxm satellite radio. (message sent sfx) like, word, chevy. that's the way to go. pick the one emoji that sums up the car. a crystal ball... i can see the future. that was deep. romantic moments can happen spontaneously,

so why pause to take a pill? or stop to find a bathroom? cialis for daily use, is the only daily tablet approved to treat erectile dysfunction so you can be ready anytime the moment is right. plus cialis treats the frustrating urinary symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently, day or night. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, or adempas for pulmonary hypertension, as it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision, or any symptoms of an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis for daily use. many men aren't aware their health insurance may cover cialis. contact your health plan for the latest information. be the you who doesn't cover your moderate to severe plaque psoriasis.

be the you who shows up in that dress. who hugs a friend. who is done with treatments that don't give you clearer skin. be the you who controls your psoriasis with stelara® just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. stelara® may lower your ability to fight infections and may increase your risk of infections and cancer. some serious infections require hospitalization. before treatment, get tested for tuberculosis. before starting stelara® tell your doctor if you think you have an infection or have symptoms such as: fever, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough. always tell your doctor if you have any signs of infection, have had cancer, if you develop any new skin growths or if anyone in your house needs or has recently received a vaccine. alert your doctor of new or worsening problems, including headaches, seizures, confusion and vision problems these may be signs of a rare, potentially fatal brain condition. some serious allergic reactions can occur. do not take stelara® if you are allergic to stelara® or any of its ingredients. most people using stelara® saw 75% clearer skin and the majority were rated as cleared or minimal at 12 weeks. be the you who talks to your dermatologist about stelara®.

what is it like to know that isis has targeted you personally for death? my next guest knows that feeling. sheikh hamza has been called the west's most influential islamic scholar and one of the world's most influential muslims. born christian in the state of washington, he converted to islam when he was 18. his withering criticism of isis, viewed online by millions, drew the group's attention, and he was marked for death in an issue of its magazine "dabiq." it's a pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. >> how did you find out isis was targeting you? >> the fbi came to my house. it was actually pretty late at night. i guess they had seen the reference to calling for my death in their magazine, their english magazine "dabiq." so they came.

i guess the desk officer said they wanted me notified to that i could take precautions. they said call 911 if anything seems suspicious. >> how did you react? >> initially, i mean, it's obviously a strange thing. it's not the first time in my life. it's obviously a strange thing. a zen master told me once, big ideas, big opposition. little ideas, little opposition. no ideas, no opposition. >> why do you think isis targeted you? >> i had a -- i put something out on the web called the crises of isis. it went viral in the middle east. i think a lot of people saw it. it was translated into arabic. i think it just bothered them. it was a little swat to the hornet's nest. >> you really took them on. you argued that they have a flimsy ideology. >> my argument was that they don't really have legitimacy in terms of islamic tradition.

every religion creates sex. it's a natural outcome of any revelation. christianity has plenty of -- the kkk swear an oath on the bible. the man who assassinated ritz habin doesn't represent -- though he was a student justifying his actions. so i think religion goes wrong, and it's very important for voices out there to direct people to the normative tradition. in other words, the main -- >> explain what you mean. >> -- the mainstream tradition. what the religion and those who understand it best have articulated about it. for instance, catholicism is not pedophilia. catholicism is st. augustine, the >> that's what the majority of the mainstream -- >> exactly. in islam, you're looking at 1.3 billion people that the vast majority, the overwhelming

majority have nothing to do with violence. there was a book called our muslims distinction, who argued that stable muslim societies were less violent than stable western societies. i lived over ten years in the muslim world. i found by and large muslims are not violent at all. hospitality is one of the center pieces of the islamic religion. >> how do you think we're doing at battling isis ideologically? >> i think we're not doing well at all. you have two issues. you have a security issue that's undeniable. governments have to keep their people safe. but you also have an ideological war. these are ideas. if you want to just get a weed hacker and hack the weeds without pulling up the roots, the weeds are going to grow back. essentially, i think after 9/11, we had an incredible opportunity, and it was a squandered opportunity. we have bred far more terrorists

than there were before 9/11. >> a lot of people say islam is not compatible with a democracy or liberalism or human rights. you say entirely the opposite. >> i think obviously terms need to be defined, but i do believe that islam right now, the places where muslims are flourishing tend to be in secular democracies. that's simply a fact. >> such as? >> well, such as the united states of america. our community, despite the unfortunate backlash of some of the less informed people in the united states, most american muslims are doing very well here. they're allowed to speak freely in their mosques. you can't do that in a lot of muslim countries. we have in the first amendment that not only the freedom of religion but also the free exercise of the religion. and that was embedded in our constitution. so i think muslims have found

that to be true. when jesus said love your neighbor, he wasn't talking about the neighbors you like, right? >> if you were to meet donald trump, what would you say? >> drop out of the race, maybe. [ laughter ] >> pleasure to have you on. hamza yusuf. >> okay. thank you very much. coming up, one of the most eloquent voices of our time lends us his insights on seismic changes he has witnessed in the world. the demise of the soviet union, post-9/11 afghanistan, and more. andrew solomon is with me next. if you think you've seen it all, ...well do i have a surprise for you. it's red lobster's new lobster and shrimp summerfest! with the lobster and shrimp... ...you love in so many new dishes, you're gonna wanna try... ...every last one. like the new coastal lobster & shrimp. with a wood-grilled lobster tail, ...wild-caught red shrimp crusted with panko, ...and shrimp fresh off the grill and brushed with... ...summer ale bbq sauce. or try the new lobster & shrimp overboard, ...because when a dish can wow you like this, ...overboard's the only way to describe it. but hurry, this ends soon.

don'tlive in paris. when you airbnb, you have your own home. so, live there. even if it's just for a night. premium like clockwork. month after month. year after year. then one night, you hydroplane into a ditch. yeah... surprise... your insurance company tells you to pay up again. why pay for insurance if you have to pay even more for using it?

if you have liberty mutual deductible fund™, you could pay no deductible at all. sign up to immediately lower your deductible by $100. and keep lowering it $100 annually, until it's gone. then continue to earn that $100 every year. there's no limit to how much you can earn and this savings applies to every vehicle on your policy. call to learn more. switch to liberty mutual and you could save up to $509. call liberty mutual for a free quote today at see car insurance in a whole new light. liberty mutual insurance. ♪ share the joy of real cream... ...with reddi-wip.

andrew solomon is one of the most acute observers of our time. he's traveled the world writing beautifully for "the new york times" magazine "the new yorker," and many other places. won the national book award for

his penetrating look at depression and won a national book critic circle award for his look at the challenges facing the disabled and other disadvantaged groups. his latest offering "far and away" is the collection of essays from his decades of witnessing historic change, the twilight of the soviet union, the turmoil of post-9/11 afghanistan, the tyranny of gadhafi in libya. >> andrew solomon, pleasure to have you on. >> what a pleasure to be here. >> you've been reporting for 25 years, traveling for 25 years. you talk about travel as a kind of moral imperative. >> it's really drawn from the uprise of xenophobic in the country at large right now. i think that people have a very difficult time making sense of countries they've never visited. i feel like if every young person in the world were required to spend two weeks in a foreign country before they reach full adulthood, doesn't matter what country or what they did there, half of the diplomatic problems would be gone. many of them arise from the fact

that people don't understand what is specific to my culture and what is universal. >> you've traveled to places we think are as very scary, like the middle east and you approach it really as an author and intellectual, not as an expert in the middle east. so what i'm interested in, how do you react to the general feeling, oh, my god, that place is just full of chaos and violence, bloodshed and despair? >> i think in every one of these societies, there's a large body of people who are probably the people who watch this program who are intelligent, thinking people, interested in and engaged with the situation of their own country and the world and that those people are often neglected. i started off writing about artists and going to various countries and meeting artists, partly i was talking about art but more i was writing about these engaged people and it's been my mission ever since then to go to places where you find scary and find the human stories

of people articulate people with a point of view and say this is what it is. afghanistan is not contrary to what people had heard a country of corrupt bureaucrats and war like peasants. >> for you libya was in some ways heartbreaking to watch that country descend. explain why. >> i was in libya in the late gadhafi people. it was a ridiculous place and unbelievably stressful. there was nothing to be said for the system that existed. i made the mistake of thinking if they got rid of that system which was so awful that something better would have to rise in its place and what happened instead is it went into a state of complete chaos so that even the patriotic libyans i met when i was there, mostly tried to flee if they possibly can. many people make the mistake of thinking that democracy and justice are the natural default state and if you remove all of the i am pediments to those,

that's what will rise up. having argued that we should support the attacks against gadhafi is that the natural state to which people default is not democracy and is not order but is a terrifying violent brutal chaos. >> it's very difficult for americans to understand because america has always had order inheriting it from the british colonies. you look at brazil. brazil is a country that was -- when you were looking at it struggling to create a functioning democracy. in fact even now the struggle continues with this -- these recent proceedings. what did you learn from that experience? >> i was fascinated in brazil by the relationships between the classes. you know, in many places, in most places really, the wealthy live in an inenclosed area and poor live in outlying areas and the points of contact are relatively minimal.

rio has a physical structure in which the wealthy live in the flat areas and poor accumulated in the hills that rise above those areas. i was interested in what happens when everyone is put together. i was interested that so many of the brazilians i met of privilege wanted to take on characteristics they associate with the intensity and music and relationship to football that so many models had come out of there. i love what the oprah winfrey of brazil said to me, i've been in north america. you have a pine grove here and oak trees there. in brazil, have you been to our tropical rainforests, everything is growing on top of everything else and sun light is being choked out and there's still more happening than anywhere else. just as our rainforest is making the oxygen the world needs to breathe, so this social structure creates a social oxygen of intimacy for which the rest of the world could profit.

>> what are the places that haunt in your memory now? >> i'm haunted by afghanistan. i thought it would be a punishing assignment and i fell in love with the place. i always remember walking with my translator one day, i bought one of those fur hats like karzai wore. we were walking back from market, most u.n. or military not allowed to walk in those areas. my translator said why don't you put on my hat. going native always looks a little silly. no, put on your hat. all right. and suddenly everyone around us burst into applause. one of the people stepped food and said you're an american and foreigner but you're in the market with us and you're wearing a true afghan hat. we want you to know you're welcome here. it was difficult not to fall in love with that. >> what do you think of putin's russia or is it even fair from the way you look at the country

to call it putin's russia? >> i think it is fair to call it putin's russia. i wish it weren't fair. it's been a terrible tragedy to see russia revert to the auto krascy it was in its darker days. there are some freedoms that didn't exist when i first went there at the end of the soviet union. but there was a kind of blissful idealistic notion of where everyone was headed and none of it has come to pass. >> do you look at america differently? have these travels made you look at your own country differently? >> it is both a window and mirror. part of what you do is to discover the other place and part of what you do is to see yourself and your own country differently. i come to understand that while we have a great many freedoms in the united states, there are flee domestics that exist elsewhere that don't exist here. we take for granted many things that give people much greater joy when they had to fight for

them and american policy has an enormous effect on people's day to day lives and what we think of sweeping decisions made on a prod scale in economic or military or citizen to scitizen terms have much more grave consequences than we often realize. >> pleasure to have you on. >> pleasure to be here. thank you. like owen, it works fast. unlike him, it makes heartburn go away. strong and soothing. new mylanta®. faster than heartburn. (vo)never be good.can purina believes it can. inspecting every ingredient for quality? that's big. being confident that your pet's food is 100% safe? that's big, too. spending more healthy years with your best friend? that's amazing. big is exciting... daring... for everyone. pets don't just make life better - they make it bigger. purina. live big.

and you're talking to your doctor about your medication... this is humira. this is humira helping to relieve my pain and protect my joints from further damage. this is humira helping me go further. humira works for many adults. it targets and helps to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. doctors have been prescribing humira for over 13 years. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. ready for a new chapter? talk to your rheumatologist. this is humira at work.

buy milk and you could be a winner this summer. when you purchase milk you can upload your receipt for a chance to win a u.s. olympic training center experience and over 1,000 other incredible prizes. visit milklife.com/champions to enter.

thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i'll see you next week. xbl hello, everyone, i'm fredericka whitfield. happening in new york city, thousands of people are taking to the streets to celebrate gay pride and honor the victims of the orlando shooting. hillary clinton is marching in the parade and you'll see her right there in green. pulse nightclub owner is also attending today's events two weeks after that deadly shooting in orlando. and nypd is dramatically increasing its presence at this year's parade but stressed that so far there has been no credible threats to the parade