is the people who have become heros on the ground are the islamist rebel factions who have the siege in aleppo. >> clarissa ward, thanks very much for that report. a horrific situation in aleppo and elsewhere in syria, as well. >> thanks for watching. erin burnett "out front" starts right now. out front next, donald trump digs in saying president obama is the founder of isis literally. will he back down tonight? new details about the relationship between hillary clinton's state department and the clinton foundation. did it cross the line? an exclusive investigation. and donald trump's spiritual adviser on how he battles his inner demons. our interview. let's go "out front." ♪ >> good evening. i'm erin burnett. we begin "out front" tonight with the breaking news. donald trump about to take the stage at a rally in florida expected to attack president obama calling him the founder of

isis, not simply responsible for its rise, the literal founder. here's what he said today. >> president obama, he is the founder of isis. he is the founder of isis. >> last night you said the president was the founder of isis. i know what you meant, you meant he created the vacuum. >> i give him the most valuable player award. >> barack obama and hillary clinton, these are the founders of isis. these are the founders of isis. >> but not long ago right here on cnn, trump had a very different opinion about who created isis. >> but here's the problem. so, we make all bad deals. the war in iraq started the whole destabilization of the middle east. it started isis. that, of course, a clear indictment of george w. bush. we begin our coverage of jim acosta who is at the trump rally

and trump is not backing down from these attacks on president obama tonight. >> reporter: no, he is not, erin. he used that accusation last night and he used it this morning and this afternoon and we expect him to do it at this rally in kissimmee, florida, he'll be out here in a few minutes and that accusation that barack obama and hillary clinton are the founders of isis and it creates criticism that he's being hypocritical. it's fast becoming a go-to line of attack for donald trump. that president obama and his former secretary of state hillary clinton gave birth to isis. >> i call president obama and hillary clinton the founders of isis. they're the founders. in fact, i think we'll give hillary clinton, you know, if you're a sports team, most valuable player. mvp. you get the mvp award.

>> reporter: trump's rationale is that the president's withdrawal from the iraq war created the conditions on the ground for terror group's rise to power. >> he hates them and he's trying to kill them. >> he is the founder. the way he got out of iraq, that was the founding of isis. >> the problem is trump once advocated a speedy pullout from the war, too. >> you know how they get out? they get out. that's how they declare out. declare victory and leave because i'll tell you, this country is just going to get further bogged down. ♪ ♪ >> reporter: trump first called mr. obama an isis founder at a rally last night in florida where he also referred to the president by his full name and slamming the white house over his hedge fundeli ehandling of >> this was taken during the administration of barack hussein obama, okay? >> continuing that soft on terror theme trump also alleged that the clinton campaign was aware that the father of the orlando nightclub shooter was at

a rally this week. >> they knew, but how did you like that picture? him sitting, 49 people killed and that guy is sitting back there and of course he likes hillary! >> trump campaign surrogates blame unfair media coverage and former mayor rudy giuliani insists trump will take part in all three presidential debates despite his battles with the press. >> you don't buy it? >> all three debates, the negotiations which the federal commission is always allowed between the candidate. >> absolutely. >> is going to happen. >> now, erin, just a few moments ago we had an incident unfolding here inside this arena in kissimmee, florida. there were three men in the stands who were flying the confederate flag and it took about 15 minutes for the trump campaign and local security to convince the men to take the flag down. they took it down and put it up. and they took it down for good

and they're flying the american flag and as donald trump would say in one of his tweets. it was sad. >> jim acosta. >> jeff zeleny is out front in michigan. donald trump was responding to the comments of barack obama being the founder of isis. >> hillary clinton did not mention it herself. she did tweet no, he is not the founder of isis, but it was the statement from the democrat iic national committee that raised questions. donald trump should apologize for his unhinged and patently false founder of isis and this is a kavecandidate who is unravg before our very eyes and the top foreign policy adviser says donald trump is trash talking america by saying thing like this. we are seeing an increasing

pattern here that started with mike bloomberg at the democratic convention in philadelphia talking about donald trump's sanity and you know, if he's all together here, really continuing this argument here and an across the board condemnation of these isis comments here from democrats today. erin? >> jeff, thank you very much. >> out front now, kayleigh mcmainy, and advising on the security issues and robert marks who advised in 2008 and hillary clinton supporter and basil smikle is also with me. let me start with you, general. president obama the literal founder of isis. he was given an opportunity in that interview. it was hugh hewitt the radio host. he said you mean they came in and filled the vacuum he said no, the founder of isis. >> crazy talk. this president is not the

founder of isis. clearly there's culpability and a lot we could have done in iraq and it was premature and the conditions were not set. we wanted a status of forces agreement so we could retain a presence and so we could continue to grow the iraqi government and help with governance and help grow a military and that didn't happen and we marched out way too soon, but the president is not the founder of isis. the core of isis are a grieved former saddam military folks who guys like me when i was in iraq put those guys in jail because we broke the military down. big mistake, we shouldn't have done that. a bunch of those guys went to jail and they became agrieved and became isis. this is a focus that is operating with some degree of impunity. >> and donald trump, by the way, walking to the podium and we expect he'll say more about this, mike, but you are advising the transition team. you know, there's obviously blame on this to go around and there's the whole discussion about whether it's george bush for wanting troops out or obama

for continuing to take them out. who is responsible? again, he was given the choice to say that what he meant was nuance and he specifically said no. i meant he's the founder. >> i worked in a factory in michigan for years and we built convertibles and i cut the roofs off of those cars. that's tongue in cheek. when you hear that talk i could have had that conversation at break on the factory floor. i think he's trying to make a point here. i think he's trying to say, he's having a hard time cutting through on the national security space. if you look at hillary clinton's record as secretary of state they failed in russia. they failed in egypt. they failed in iraq and created an environment and this is a conversation we're all having including spider marks who is talking about this environment. i think that's what he's trying to do. i don't know that. i don't talk to him and that's not part of the question and those failures are something he needs to highlight. >> to this point, though, this is an issue of who is more

responsible for the rise of isis. he has repeatedly suggested that president obama at the least sympathizes with islamic terrorists and perhaps much worse, okay? let me play it. >> he doesn't get it or he gets it better than anybody understands. it's one or the other. maybe he doesn't want to get rid of the problem. i don't know what's going on. >> i don't know what's wrong with obama and he wants to close his eyes and pretend it's not happening and why is he so emphatic on not solving the problem. there's something we don't know about. there's something we don't know about. >> none of those comments suggest to me that he's actually implicating obama with isis. when he says obama doesn't get it, maybe he doesn't want to get it, in fact obama's own words suggest he doesn't want to get it when he calls isis jv and when his secretary john kerry. >> he said maybe he doesn't want to get rid of the problem. >> maybe he doesn't get rid of the problem because he doesn't want to acknowledge that a problem exists. when you have the sitting

secretary of state john kerry stand before the world and say climate change is as dangerous as isis they don't want to acknowledge the problem and it's insulting to 49 people who died in orlando, and 184 people who died in paris and san bernardino and the list goes on and on and it is absolutely insuhling. their names might not be on the founding documents and they lay the groundwork and that is certain and four-star general jack king confirmed that. >> basil? >> you and i, all of us here could agree to disagree and we can have an intellectual conversation about the merits of isis today and how it's -- where we are, but i'll take it a step further. it's not just crazy. his language is disgusting to me. this is completely irresponsible to call the sitting president of the united states a founder of isis and he called hillary clinton a co-founder of isis, not only disrespectful and it's disgusting. to me, i've felt for a long time that donald trump just wanted to tap into the sentiment that the

system is rigged. i think it's well beyond that right now. this man is a nilistic in his approach. he is not going to be content until every political institution and indeed, most political leaders of this country have been completely discredited. >> you called donald trump an isis prop ghanttist. >> that's true. >> in part because he's going around telling people that the president, the president of the united states founded a terrorist organization. that's completely irresponsible. >> general, all of this is in part because you did something that you have not done before which is tack a political stand. >> you are going to vote for hillary clinton? >> i am. i made that decision. >> i'm an intel guy. i have had my fanny chewed so many times. i have been wrong so many times. i was a senior intel guy with we went to the war in iraq. there was a lot that we did not get right and i did not get right and i raised my hand and i

said i simply don't know and i was ripped apart many times for that and you have tome brace what you know and what you don't know and you have to move forward and say i got that wrong. no intent to deceive and not trying to lie to anybody, i screwed that up and i don't see that level of humility in this candidate. that's what bugs me. that's what bugs me. i'm not a big fan of where we are right now with this current administration at all. it bothers me greatly. i'm the guy who sat around the table and i've had to bury soldiers for mistakes that we've made in combat in this administration and the previous administration. i want to move forward with somebody and what i care about is national security first and foremost. there are a thousand things we all need to be passionate about and this is first and foremost. it's the job of our president of the united states and of our commander in chief to support the constitution. i want that done right, and i think that hillary clinton will do that better than donald trump. >> mike, a chance to respond. >> again, the failures are just

unbelievable and she's already the former secretary. backed the wrong candidate in egypt and got it completely wrong on russia and we're paying for the problem in expansionism there. >> the pivot. >> which hasn't happened, by the way and you know that and they're saying we're going to continue the same policy, the policy on isis really has been a disaster an dangerous. my argument here is, listen, he has already said and certainly, i'm obvious of this he said we're going to put the best national security people around him to make good decisions and it will change. i argue if we don't change and if we continue the same path which hillary clinton has said we're going to do, we are going have real national security and defense problems. secondly, the budget and you know this when you were there and they said the number one problem and threat to national security was the budget. she plans to spend a trillion extra dollars and she hasn't explained how to pay for. pretty soon, the national debt and the interest on the national debt will be a larger budget

item than the department of defense. that is a huge problem. when you add all of that up it just doesn't make sense for national security people. >> both will be increasing deficits and let's just be honest about that, but we'll take a break and come back in just a moment. donald trump is under pressure and we'll talk about the economy here and also his tax returns and new details about a secret meeting between hillary clinton's top aide at the state department and a job applicant. this is an exclusive cnn investigation and you will see it this hour. a popular televangelist, trump's spiritual adviser opens up to "out front" about their relationship. >> he was watching christian television and he called up and said hey, you're fantastic and repeated almost verbatim three of my sermons on value and vision. d talk, text and data never expires with active service. some major carriers say you can keep your data. but when you read the fine print, your data does expire. but tracfone has unlimited carryover,

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wealthy friends first at the expense of others. pamela brown is out front. >> it's wonderful to be back in michigan. >> reporter: hillary clinton is drawing a sharp contrast with donald trump on the economy. >> when he visited detroit on monday he talked only of failure, poverty and crime. he is missing so much about what makes michigan great! >> reporter: speaking at a manufacturing plant outside detroit, clinton charged that trump's economic proposals would benefit the wealthy at the expense of middle-class americans. >> he hasn't offered any credible solutions for the very real economic challenges we face. her speech comes three days after trump addressed the detroit economic club where he accused clinton of backing trade agreements that have hurt michigan's manufacturing industry. >> hillary clinton has supported the trade deals stripping this city and this country of its jobs and its wealth. >> reporter: clinton responding to trump's criticism today. >> mr. trump may talk a big game

on trade, but his approach is based on fear, not strength. fear that our country has no choice, but to hide behind walls. >> clinton also attacking trump today not only on his tax proposal and for his failure to release his tax returns. >> he refuses to do what every other presidential candidate in decades has done and release his tax returns. >> trump still refusing to release his returns while they're under audit. instead today slamming her record on taxes. >> hillary has supported tax increases on the middle class for her entire career. >> when it comes to the handling of the economy, the latest cnn/orc poll shows clinton with the narrow advantage over trump. 50% of voters trust her while 48% say they trust trump. clinton is hoping to expand that by undercutting trump's core message on the economy. >> there is a myth out there that he will stick it to the rich and powerful because

somehow he's really on the side of the little guy. don't believe it. >> and that campaign adviser tells cnn hillary clinton will release her 2015 tax return as early as tomorrow and tim kaine, her running mate, will release ten years' of tax returns as well to keep the pressure trump to release his own tax returns according to this campaign adviser. back to you. >> all right. thank you very much, pam. out front now senior adviser to the trump campaign, boris epistein and doug almetz and kayleigh joins me along with basil, as well. >> we will get kaine's ten years, and hillary clinton's tax returns and bloomberg shows 68% of voters say that it bothers them that donald trump hasn't released his returns. >> 70% of voters don't trust hillary clinton. he's a private individual and it is up to him up to release the

returns and he has released 104 pages of a financial disclosure, and as a business owner, tax returns only give you a snapshot and the financial disclosure form that goes deep into someone's finances and it's all out there. >> buy it, doug? >> not at all. what does he have to hide? he's got international dealings? maybe he's paid zero in taxes. interestingly, "the new york times" has an article that's been posted on online how much has donald trump paid in taxes? maybe zero. maybe he's not made charitable contributions. >> you should read the article because he really gets into it in quite a bit of detail. >> it's hyperbole. >> what does he have to hide, though? >> even if he didn't pay taxes? >> what is she hiding in her e-mails. >> he's been able to turn these things into an advantage. because i can afford the lawyers to get around the system and the tax law allows it. so paying zero wouldn't seem to

be a fear for him. it doesn't hurt him with the core supporters and it does undermine the rationale for running and i'm a businessman and what i've done with my business enterprise i can use as a framework for what i can do for america and if you -- if he which he has said that he's taken such advantage of the bankruptcy laws and such advantage of the system, what i think releasing those tax returns does is it sheds light into just what kind of games he was playing. and the fact of the matter -- the fact is he is not a private person anymore. he is a public official. he is the nominee of his party. >> and what we know about the nominee is that he's been acting lawfully. he's been audited nearly a dozen times and he's been come out unscathed and he'd be in jail otherwise. an obligation to retain the e-mails under the federal record acts and i'm more interested in the missing e-mails. >> one thing on the issue of the tax return, the longer he

doesn't put it out the more speculation you get about why and that could be damaging and here are people in his own party about what's in these returns. >> either he's not anywhere near as wealthy as he says he is or he hasn't been paying the kind of taxes we would help him to pay or perhaps he hasn't been giving money to the vets or to the disabled like he's been telling us he's been doing. >> maybe it is the case that donald -- there have been multiple media reports about donald's business dealings with the mob, with the mafia. >> perhaps one more reason we're not seeing his tax returns because he is deeply involved in dealing with russian oligarchs and others. >> he could put all that to rest if he just put them out there, kayleigh. >> i'm glad you brought up mitt romney and he liked to play into the hands of my liberal friends over there because you were prodding him to release the taxes. >> and he got slammed for it and that was the beginning of the end of the romney candidacy.

>> so the point -- >> mitt romney is a very different thing about donald trump. >> so the point is don't release your tax returns so you don't get slammed on it? >> why not release the 33,000 e-mails hillary is hiding? i'd love to know. do you know? >> he is aware of the transcripts for the wall street speeches? isn't that equivalent? why not release those? if she has nothing to hide with her relationship with wall street, where are they? >> i think she should release whatever transcript need to be released and i also think that donald trump probably has something to hide and he's reluctant -- >> it's irresponsible to do what you're doing, i may be and maybe i'm not, and as erin said, 70% of the people want to know what it is. >> if he puts out these audits with no problems then what is there to be ashamed of or worried about? >> he is going through an audit and he has complied with all of the rules and regulations and something hillary clinton has

not done and we know for a fact now she lied to congress when she said she uturned over all hr e-mails. >> on that point of the e-mail, i do want everyone to know we have new details about the state department's relationship with the clinton foundation. you have to see this, it's a significant report and an exclusive investigation. out front next, donald trump talking about what would happen if he loses. >> i'm going to have a very, very nice, long vacation. ♪ ♪ only those who dare drive the world forward. introducing the first-ever cadillac ct6.

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well, we're going to mention it. the e-mails are raising questions about the relationship of the state department under hillary clinton and the clinton foundation. tonight, we are learning much more about that relationship and drew griffin has this exclusive cnn investigation. >> reporter: on june 19, 2012, cheryl mills, then the chief of staff for secretary of state hillary clinton boarded an amtrak acela train in washington's union station bound for new york. for the last seven months, senate investigators have been trying to find out what mills was up to, and for seven months the u.s. department of state has refused to answer. now cnn has learned a potential reason why, cheryl mills, then a u.s. government employee and secretary of state clinton's chief of staff, was in new york working on behalf of the clinton foundation. a source close to the situation confirms to cnn mills was interviewing two potential candidates to lead the clinton foundation. mills would interview top-level

executives at walmart and the drug company pfizer. both companies huge donors to the clinton foundation and both have worked with the clinton global initiative. was mills' role in violation of government ethics rules? did she have permission from the u.s. department of state? did the state even know the trip was taking place? cnn has asked the u.s. state department all of these questions and this was the response. >> federal employees are permitted to engage in outside personal activities within they scope of the federal ethics rules, a spokesperson tells cnn, all federal employees are subject to ethics laws and regulations including rules pertaining to conflicts of interest. the vague response raises questions that are not being answered, not to cnn, but worse says one watchdog not to the republican-led senate judiciary committee which has a right to know. >> congress has a rightful right to ask for any information it wants to from the executive

branch of government to keep track of them and the government should be turning that over and when you have a breakdown in that system we have a breakdown in our democracy. >> reporter: it's easy to understand why cheryl mills was trusted with helping to find the next director of the clinton foundation. her relationship with the clintons goes back decades. >> i am honored to be here today on behalf of the president. >> as bill clinton's deputy white house counsel, she defended the then president during impeachment proceedings. in 2008 when hillary clinton was running for president, mills was her senior legal campaign adviser. >> i, hillary rodham clinton -- >> and when hillary clinton became secretary of state, mills left the board of the clinton foundation and became hillary clinton's chief of staff. the secrecy about the new york trip, the dual roles played by trusteda, cyst ants and the mixing of business between state, clinton foundation and its donors all play interest a central theme of donald trump's campaign, that politicians, like the clintons, use government to

benefit themselves. >> these are crooked people. they've been crooked from the beginning. you look at that foundation, it's pure theft and pure crookedness! >> cheryl mills' attorney says her client was simply doing volunteer work for a charitable foundation. she was not paid. the clinton foundation also says mills was not a paid employee. late today, clinton campaign spokesman brian fallon sent this statement, cheryl volunteered her personal time to a charitable organization as she has to other charities. cheryl paid for her travel to new york city personally and it was crystal clear to all involved that this had nothing to do with her official duties. the idea that this poses a conflict of interest is absurd. >> erin, there is no evidence to dispute that this work was being done voluntarily and that no deals were cut and no promises made and nothing illegal, but given the ongoing drip of e-mails and the money being collected by the clinton foundation and the promise that

hillary clinton made keeping state department and clinton foundation business separate, it could sure look bad. >> drew, thank you very much. >> doug and boris are back with me. let me start with you. you hear this report, should cheryl mills have been meeting with anyone on behalf of the clinton foundation? she was working at the department of state for the secretary of state. >> sure. it was purely voluntary, no government funds were spent and the other thing is the clinton foundation is a charitable organization doing great work around the world. it's not like it's some for-profit organization. frankly, i think it's much ado about nothing. there's no there there and i honestly don't believe this will continue on through the campaign season because there is so much more on that donald trump crazy train that's about ready to derail. >> that's a good pivot. >> if there was much ado about mg nothing then the state department wouldn't stonewalled for three or four years. the fact of the matter it's so

much improp righty and there was a continuing narrative improp righty. go back 40 years and you don't have to go back that far. look at what we just learned. five of the people who voted shouldn't have had access to the clintons, gilbert chagoury was -- >> a lebanese billionaire. a lebanese-nigerian billionaire, by the way, and bill clinton has collected hundreds of thousands from nigeria in speaking fees, lobbyists and job seekers and consulting people and consultants who want to get contracts from the state department and the department of defense and all these folks were granted access by hillary clinton. hillary clinton instructed people to give these folks access. >> that is unclear whether that final step actually happened, but you raise one significant point. >> just one? >> maybe others, but for sure one related to what we just heard from drew. doug, seven months senate investigators have been trying to find out what cheryl mills was doing on this day. what is she doing? for seven months the u.s. department of state refused to

answer. if there was nothing to hide, and if it was -- and by the way all they did today was here are our ethics rules. >> right. >> they didn't say this was in line with them or not in line with them. if nothing improper was happening why did they stonewall? >> i don't know if it was necessarily a stonewall. >> that's rude. dealing with government is very bureaucratic. give me that for a second and more importantly, i just find it fascinating that we're so wrapped up in something dealing with a charitable foundation that is doing great work around the country, around the world. you know, the reality is that it's been released. >> it does a lot of good work and is not bought off secretaries of state. >> let me ask you this point because you have pfizer and walmart executives interviewing and they're giving a lot of money to the clinton administration. cheryl mills comes to do interviews. say she's doing it on her own dime and say all of this is true. don't you think they would have had the impression that wow!

this person is right next to the secretary of state. this person could give me access. isn't that in itself improper? >> well, i don't -- frankly believe that because she's had a long relationship with the clintons, gag back decades so i really think that the fact that she's able to understand what the clintons are looking for as an executive -- >> the question is about those people who were giving money, gilbert chagoury gave a billion dollars with a "b" to the clinton foundation. >> that's a separate example than the one drew is talking about. >> what do people expect? do you think that they're meeting with cheryl mills because shooz a nice person? no. they're meeting with her because she represents hillary clinton and over time as representative bill clinton and this foundation has the clinton name on it and hillary clinton was secretary of state. the fact that she signed a letter where she promised to not take money from foreign countries into the foundation and that was broken and now it's

clear that when she signed a pledge that she will not conduct foundation business while secretary of state she lied again. maybe she short circuited, but i'm not buying that. >> much more to discuss on this. the rnc's chairman's tense call to donald trump and those details on that breaking story. out front, trump's spiritual adviser popular televangelist paula white on why trump doesn't like to evangelize. that coming up. hey, you're clarence! yes, sir. you know, at the model year end clarence event,

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because the time to think about tomorrow...is today. go long. new tonight. donald trump getting a tough lesson in politics. sources tell cnn that the rnc chairman reince priebus called trump telling the republican nominee that the way he is running the campaign is want the way things work in politics and he is taking issue with the way the campaign is headed. dana bash is out front. >> reporter: when donald trump called for solidarity in wisconsin last week. >> we need unity. we have to win this election. >> none of the state's leading republican figures was there, not the gop governor and not the gop senator and not even wisconsin native reince priebus,

chairman of the republican party. republicans across the country were tourious with trump for declining to endorse wisconsin's paul ryan, the house speaker in his primary especially the rnc chair. >> reince priebus -- >> in fact, cnn is told priebus called trump and implored his party's nominee to act like a team player that when republicans criticized trump for controversial statements let them. they're doing it for their own viability. so trump showed up at his wisconsin rally with a peace offering. priebus has played a tough love role with trump since the primary, a political sherp saa, of sorts. >> that's one of the jobs of being chairman of the republican party and it's important to be unified and it's important to remember -- >> it's not usually this hard. >> this was not -- a usual election. >> and it still isn't. some never trump republicans think he is such a lost cause they're urging the rnc to focus exclusively on keeping gop

majorities in congress. 75 republicans so far signed an open letter to priebus saying, quote, only the immediate shift if all available r nrgs c resources to vulnerable senate and house races would prevent the gop from the trump emblazoned anchor around its neck. sources pham ilarwith plans say preeb sus not seriously considering that yet. for one thing, he doesn't think it will work. as this map shows many vulnerable senate republicans are in presidential battle ground states and the races may be inextricably linked. ? in ohio rob portman is slightly ahead in his race and rnc officials say abandoning trump would suppress the gop vote and hurt portman. gop sources say if trump's poll numbers keep sinking and shifting resources may happen at some point. as for trump, he's making clear

he'll be fine either way. >> at the end it's either going to work or i'm going to -- i'm going to have a very, very nice, long vacation. >> and tonight, a veteran republican if new hampshire where donald trump is trailing big time is telling me it's possible a risk of dropping trump could be worth it to save kelly ayotte and if republicans try to do that, it's an open question how would it work in practical terms? a republican familiar with rnc plans put it this way, at this point we're all going to win or all going to lose. there is no cutting and running. erin? >> dana, thank you very much. next out front, donald trump getting personal about his religion. >> maybe the only way i'm going to get to heaven so i better do a good job. okay? >> his spiritual adviser

televangelist paula white is my guest. >> the trump tower climber and his suction cups go viral. she spent summer binge-watching. soon, she'll be binge-studying. get back to great. this week sharpie singles now twenty-five cents. office depot officemax. gear up for school. gear up for great. sorry, captain obvious. don't be. i've got the hotels.com app, which makes it simple to book a room for $500. or $25, but it won't be here.

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figure it's probably, maybe the only way i'm going to get to heaven, so i better do a good job. okay? trump also giving a nod to his spiritual adviser televangelist paula white. she's a popular tv star and how a random trump phone call started it all. >> got a phone call. he was watching christian television and he called up and said hey, you're fantastic and repeated almost verbatim three of my sermons on value, vision, and a friendship formed and relationship and not just with donald and with his staff with his family, with his children and with his 14s and it's been quite interesting and i'm really excited that especially at the convention you saw so many of his friends, family, the kids come forth and begin to talk about and express that other side that i think people are so curious about. >> it's interesting, though,

what you say because, you know, you say he watched a few of your sermons and he was able to really read it back. so it was clear he watched you regularly and it wasn't like he saw you once and said, okay. >> i love that point and so many people miss over it and they think donald is jumping into this now, 14 years ago, a regular watcher and would watch christian television and loved, and would be hungry for the word and hungry to hear and would ask me so many different questions and what does that mean? when you were saying it this way and really that hunger which is what god wants out of all of us and so much more hungry in his heart than what i would ever imagine or suspect. >> to that end, i think you're right. people don't, and he knows that and because he's very private about it. >> right. ? he's made some missteps when talking about religion. he's been very open about that, but this is the donald trump

that the world sees talking about religion and let me play it for you because it's very different from the man i think you know. >> i hear this is a major theme right here, but 2 corinthians, right? 3:17, that's the whole ball game. >> i mean, why do i have to repent? why do i have to ask for forgiveness if you're not making mistakes? >> when we go in church and when i drink my little wine which is the only wine i drink and have my little cracker and that's a form of asking for forgiveness and i do that as muchas possible because i feel cleansed. >> and they weren't quite the way they came across and a respected leader shared the scripture with him and said 2 corinthians and when he comes off the stage he looked at me and i was there, my husband was there and we were sitting over with ivanka and the kids and then he said no, it's second

corinthians and he goes, paula? it's second corinthians. i've been preaching for 32 years, and i say names and i go, guys, i'm making up the names. i'm saying it wrong. and i understand they want to hold donald to the letter to the law, but what i can absolutely tell you about him. >> yes. >> he's a man that loves god. >> are there times -- one of the things he gets criticized for in public is the stalwart conviction that he's always right, he doesn't apologize and he doesn't back down. there is a bluster and a bravado that some find to be overbearing and incurious how does that square with the man you know? are there times when he has been afraid? times when he has questioned himself? >> i understand. he's a strong leader. he's a very strong leader, but at the same time there are private times, and my goodness, how much do i share in the public with that? but i remember one time he said, paula, when do you turn the

other cheek and when do you forgive? that's a strong biblical question, and an interesting one. i think that we all -- all at some point ask ourselves whether we're preachers or whether we're sitting in the pew or whether we're mr. trump. do i put on the boxing gloves right now or do i turn the cheek? what did jesus exactly mean by that? so mr. trump has those deep-seeded faith questions and greater that deep-seeded heart and that desire. >> paul a thank you so much for taking time to talk to us. >> it's my honor, erin. thank you. >> a fascinating conversation with her and we'll put the entire thing online and next the trump tower climber and michael phelps. i work as professional mountain guide and the surface pro 4

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a man scales trump tower using suction cups to win over trump's attention, but he won the internet instead. here's jeanne moos. >> your dog would bark, too. >> oh, my god. >> if a guy with suction cups showed up outside your trump tower window. the climber's slow ascent made the slightest move riveting when he took off his backpack, when he put on a hat, when he had a drink and there were moments of true drama when emergency services knocked out glass to get to him. and when they finally dragged him in.

>> it was one of those summer stories made for internet jokesters. live footage from trump tower tweeted a batman and robin fan, watches the olympics once and it inspires this. the climber was inserted behind the donald in his famous taco bowl photo. before everyone learned that he was steve from virginia there were guesses. was it chris christie suctioning up to the donald? or ted cruz looking for delegates? "the daily news" bellowed, hey, donald, will your wall stop suction cups? the climber was accused of copying "toy story." some saw a resemblance between the climber and supernatural star jared pataleki and the actor resorted to facebook to clear things up. this is not me trying to scale trump tower in new york city so please stop asking. >> the number one meme, the

visual joke that really left a mark was this. >> the climber suctioning the back of olympic swimmer michael phelps and here you thought the circles were from cupping therapy. at least the climber got closer to michael phelps than he did to the top of trump tower. jeanne moos, cnn, new york. all right. thanks so much for joining us. "ac 360" begins now. good evening. john berman in for anderson. we have as big of a night as you can have without a guy using giant suction cups to climb trump tower. donald trump wrapping up a rally tonight in florida repeating the claim that president obama or as he likes to say now, barack hussein obama is the co-founder of isis along with hillary clinton, and secretary clinton, cnn has uncovered new evidence that a top state department staffer for hillary clinton was doing work while at state on behalf of the clinton foundation. that and new details on the