good evening. thanks for joining us tonight. would donald trump keep backing away trt immigration hard line he rode all of the way to the republican nomination? is he backing away? he'll be speaking shortly tonight in austin, texas. we'll listen to that, and just this afternoon talking about the millions living here illegally he mapped out what could sound like president obama's current deportation policy. a lot of democrats are certainly saying that. we'll see if he does it again tonight and how hard-line supporters will react to how he himself will be softening tonight and we'll ask kellyanne conway about whether this constitutes a real change, fine-tuning or a flip-flop because we've heard it called all three. >> later, with trump and his surrogates fueling conspiracy theories about hillary clinton's health and we'll take a closer look at what we know about her health and donald trump's fitness. also, we have breaking news, the bruising headline for candidate clinton, more than 50% of the private individuals who met with her when she ran the state department were clinton foundation donors. we begin with cnn's jason

carroll at the event in austin, texas, tonight. obviously, a border state and donald trump backing away from some of his immigration policies and do we expect him to hit on that tonight? >> we do. look, it's very clear that going forward and what we've seen in the past or has been a change in some ways in terms of what donald trump has put out in terms of the immigration policy and initially he would deport some 11 million illegal immigrants living here in the country and changing to say he would just get rid of the bad ones and altering it again and saying that he would follow along with much of what the president has already been doing and earlier this afternoon at a taping on another network when asked the question about what about those illegal immigrants who are here and contributing to society and not committing any crimes, donald trump said the following. certainly, there can be a, quote, softening because we're

not looking to hurt people, but when i spoke to some people here in this crowd, anderson, about the softening position, two men i spoke to said, look, this has been the cornerstone of this campaign and if he's softening his position on this issue he's going to lose our vote and then i spoke to another woman who said what's happening here is that donald trump is learning more about the country and learning more about the laws that are in place and if he softens his issue on this particular point, not going to lose her vote, but it is very clear there are questions about how this is going to go over with his base. anderson? >> we've also heard donald trump continue to reach out to african-american voters in these rallies. are we expecting that as well tonight? >> we are, as you know, we've heard him reach out to african-americans before in previous speeches and last week again, this week and rnc chairman, reince priebus has said earlier today expect there

to be some sort of reference to saw with that was a response from some in the african-american community and latino community that he's not acknowledging those african-americans and latinos who don't live in communities like this who aren't worried about getting shot and they're worried about discrimination and getting a job. the question isn't if he will reach out. the question is how he chooses to do that, anderson? >> jason carroll. thanks so much and we will be hearing from donald trump shortly and unclear whether he will mention the new reporting on how many clinton foundation donors met with her while he was secretary of state and he's reacted by e-mail to that

associated press item. bottom line, it is at first glance, bruising more than half of the private individuals she had meetings with were clinton foundation donors and on that story, jeff zeleny joins us with details. jeff? >> donald trump and his running mate, mike pence are reacting swiftly to this report. they've already been calling for the clinton foundation to be shut down and they're escalating these calls and using it as another way by firing up their supporters. by suggesting that the clintons are, in their words, corrupt. in a nutshell this peer report says this. more than half of the people who met with hillary clinton as secretary of state, contributed to the clinton foundation and this is evidence of pay for play. we have no evidence of that in our reporting, but there is no question it creates at least the appearance of conflicts and for the clinton campaign that's one more headache in this ongoing controversy. >> and i -- the clinton campaign has reacted. what did they say? >> they have, anderson. it was a short time ago and they released a scathing response to this report.

they say the story is flawed and the meetings examined by the a.p. were cherry picked. campaign spokesman went on to say this in a statement. let's take a look. he said the data does not account for more than half of her tenure as secretary and it omits more than 1700 meetings she took with world leaders let alone, countless others she took with u.s. government officials while serving as secretary of state. just taking the subset of the meetings arbitrarily he goes on to say selected by the a.p. and it is outrageous to misrepresent secretary clinton's basis for meeting with these individuals and tonight, anderson, a state department spokesman telling cnn that donors for the clinton foundation do request meetings all of the time and there's nothing unusual or improper about that. the bottom line is this, is that appearance of influence, a fine line being crossed and the clinton campaign has to fight back. the foundation obviously where there is a problem here changed their policy and it was just

yesterday former president bill clinton said he would step down and stop fund-raising if she was elected and that is designed to quell the controversy and that, of course, did not happen. big story today. i want to get reaction to that and the changes that seem to be coming from the trump side on immigration and just how the campaign is going and joining us now is kellyanne conway. thanks so much. >> this a.p. story and you heard the clinton campaign saying essentially, the data is flawed. they, in their release which jeff did mention, they cite two people and the wife of bill gates who heads his foundation and meet web nobel prize-winning economists and nothing is wrong with that and there are other people she met with, civilians she met who clearly wanted some sort of influence or wanted help with a visa problem or something like that. how bad do you think is this? >> well, it's not great and it's not great. i think the clinton campaign is actually having one of their worst weeks ever in the campaign and it's only tuesday and the

reason i say this is very simple. everything that you're discussing and everything that is unfolding as we sit here, the details, plays into what people don't like about career politicians and the corrupt system and it's reflective in everybody's polls and even cnn's polls and even after hillary clinton's democratic convention, anderson, 64% of americans in the cnn poll they don't find her to be honest and trustworthy. i think we take that too much for granted. it's been so high for so long, yes, but, and they pivot to donald trump. let's focus on that number. >> he does have high negative. >> for a very different reason. >> and that is an argument i'm willing to wage because hers is more fundamental a character flaw and when you have reports like that from the venerable a.p. and her campaign, i thought for all of the smart people i thought it was a pretty weak statement tonight and they maybe should have waited and thought it through, because they're always blaming someone else and explaining something and they just came off of secretary powell saying that's not true.

i had that dinner with her -- >> i had that dinner a year after she set-up the private e-mail server. >> and condoleezza rice said she had no memory of that. >> there always seems to be a new chapter in it. i don't think it helps. once in awhile, just like i did as a new campaign and i came on places like this and saying we're behind. the polls are not good for us right now. we're the underdogs and we're lighting a fire under ourselves. once in a while the clinton people would do themselves good and today is not a good day for the home team. >> donald trump has said this is pay to play, and that's what a lot of republicans are saying. donald trump has said he's paid $100,000 and was he given that money? pay to play. the clinton foundation does a lot of good work. i want to say that, for the record, they do. the question is why these meetings at the state department? was your candidate donating that money so that he could have access to hillary clinton whenever he wanted? >> it seemed like he had access with him whenever he wanted and they went to his wedding and he

gave money. sure, because they do good work and let's hope that money went >> so he wasn't paying to play? >> no. he wasn't paying to play. >> here is the real important issue here because people may say it is so convoluted and i don't think it affects me and my family. it does and here is why. on capitol hill, you have republican and democratic senators and congressmen. when they want to raise money they leave their congressional offices and they walk across the street to their party committees because it's against the law and also is improper to make those fund-raising phone calls from your official office that we're all paying for. they're doing the people's business and they walk across and they do that. she's entertaining people to give money to a foundation, $156 million worth of donations. >> and they've already given money or want some sort of access and donald trump on whether he has paid to play.

he said i have friends in a lot of places and i gave money to a lot of people and i know the system better than anybody else and it's a corrupt system. the intimation is he knew how things worked and he was taking part of it just like all the others. >> he has never told me he was going to the state department to have a meeting with hillary clinton, but apart from that, i think the other point here is as i was walking over here tonight anderson, i noticed another report, 75 entry his been erased from the state department visitor's log and we'll have to see how that holds up. that plays into what are you covering up? why would those be erased and in other words, i think every day, they're explaining this away. >> not a good day for them, certainly. >> i think we'll look back and say she had the opportunity to really put this away and missed her opportunity. she went into hiding. no press conference in 262 days. >> you had a good week last week. it's no coincidence it's when you come onboard and donald trump was very focused last week

and he gave focused speeches night after night after night hitting similar themes and issues which i want to talk about, as well and one more thing on this a.p. story and james carville was on the show last night said the clinton foundation shuts down like donald trump says it should. mike pence says it should. people are going die and 9 million people get access to low-cost hiv drugs or drugs they couldn't get otherwise and people's lives have been saved and are you worried about that that just perhaps the appearance of impropriety, people will die. >> i would ask bill clinton what he thinks of that particular line of argument and they'll start accepting foreign donations which would shrink their capital on the good works that they do. are people going to be less helped because she's president following along that reasoning? i would also offer my agreement with james carville's remarks on a different network this morning where he said either people will go to hell or heads will roll if this is true. there are a lot of honest

democrats who seem really outraged about this chain of events because they also feel that this was bernie sanders' entire point, and he wasn't a lone wolf. what did he do? he got 22 state victories over her, millions of voters who really can't abide what they see as the rigged corrupt system and the insider's game and don't be surprised if you see those of us in the trump campaign borrowing awful lot of bernie sanders points towards hillary clinton in the primary because they're resonant on our behalf, as well. sorry. i also wanted to make the point that when it comes to hillary clinton i don't understand why she can't just give speeches or issue press releases or statements to the press what is her position on obamacare? what is her position on immigration? what would she do to rebuild the economy? >> she's certainly been very clear on issues on obamacare. she's certainly behind it and wants to extend part of it.

>> i sure hope so because it's widely unpopular, but the point is this, watch when you have people on your show or cnn anywhere, anderson, it takes a clinton supporter about five seconds maximum to mention donald trump. if you were to ask them, what will -- >> they're clearly trying to make this a referendum to donald trump. >> that's unfair to the voters. i think this election has to be a contest on issues. let's lay them out. >> although in all fairness, donald trump has spent a lot of time, crooked hillary clinton coming up with nicknames and names for all the -- >> and giving the speeches that you just mentioned last week. four speeches -- >> >> that's a relatively new development. >> and immigration and it will be a continuing development because i think the voters deserve and expect a conversation on the issues. >> we're going to continue our conversation, particularly i want to talk to you about immigration and other things and the question about whether donald trump is changing his stance on immigration and we'll continue that conversation and we'll hear from the panel and shortly from donald trump from austin, texas. behold the power of protein in birds eye protein blends.

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welcome back. we'll hear from donald trump in austin, texas tonight and we're talking to trump campaign manager kellyanne conway. let's talk about the immigration plan.

first i want to remind viewers of what donald trump has said during the primary season. >> we have a law, right? you're supposed to come in legally. i would get people out and i would have an expedited way of getting them back into the country so they can be legal. if they're illegal immigrants they've got to go out. >> how would you do it in a practical way. >> you really think you can round up 11 million people. >> at some point we'll get back the good ones. >> you will have a deportation force and you'll do it humanely. >> will you be sending in officers, into people's homes to get them out? >> we're going to be giving notice. we'll be saying you have to go. >> we have at least 11 million people in this country that came in illegally. they will go out. they will come back, some will come back. the best through a process. they have to come back legally. >> so now tonight i understand on hannity he has talked about a possible softening of the law, and i have the direct quote and he was asked is there any part of the law that you might change

that can accommodate people in society, if they're law-abiding and there certainly could be a softening and we have some great people in this country and we'll follow the laws of this country. 11 million people is he no longer saying they all got to leave although the good ones can come back. >> think what he said we don't want to hurt people is very consonant with what he said all along which is we want to find a humane and effective way and frankly, that's just how we should all feel about each other generally speaking. >> that's not what we heard and those quotes were from 2015 all of the way to the summer to november that we just played tonight. 11 million people and he said they've all got to leave. is he no longer saying that? >> so what he's saying is that we need to find the mechanism that works and that is fair and is legal and in his words humane, he doesn't hurt people. >> he's no longer saying all 11 million have to leave. >> there are a couple of principles to his immigration

plan and know number one is enforce the laws and imagine if we did enforce the laws. public opinion says that people would rather enforce the laws on the books and with respect to immigration pile on new laws and we need to enforce the laws that exist currently, you do find that some of it takes care of itself. by the way, president obama has enforced the laws and he has deported, i think it's 2.5 million people is what i read? i hope it's within that margin, but it's a significant number and he's been criticized by people on the left for it, frankly. number two, mr. trump wants to find a fair and humane way and effective way to address the fact that roughly 11 million illegal immigrants live among us. number three and this is something that's very different from hillary clinton. president obama -- excuse me, a president trump would -- he wants to be fair to everyone. so often the conversation is only about what's fair to the 11 million immigrants. how about what's fair to the american worker who is competing for that job?

how about what's fair to a business that says i -- i went ahead and got on e-verify and i want to wash my hands clean? what's fair to the rest of us? so in principle, it's exactly the same and it's how to execute and he's been taken to counsel many people what is possible and plausible. >> you're saying it's exactly the same, but he's no longer saying 11 million people got to leave and the good ones can come back. essentially you're saying the people who have committed crimes and not the crossing of the border, but people convicted of actual crimes and they're the ones who will make the focus and 11 million people, and 11 million will be deported along donald trump. >> i am saying there could be a way to figure out how to do it and we're not here to harm people and that's a very important phrase. >> deportation force and we're not talking about donald trump talking about a deportation force. >> he has not said that for a while and senator jeff sessions. >> that's a -- senator sessions

said there is not a deportation to deport 11 million people and you find a way to abide by the law and see what that provides and i want to repeat again. >> just so to that point, donald trump early on said 11 million people got to leave. the good ones can come back and you talked about a deportation force and we're not going to hear that from donald trump and he's no longer saying illegal immigrants in that country will have to leave and they'll have to move. >> i'll repeat that because he said that he wants to, and he's not flip-flopping on immigration and he wants to find and that seems like a flip-flop. >> a way to execute on his principles without hurting people. >> a flip-flop is a political criticism. it does seem like a change in policy, right? wisely or not, whatever it may be, it certainly seems like a change in policy. >> what i know, too, is i can't find an issue and i can find very few issues where he and secretary clinton were different. she's to the left of president obama in this.

she has expressed support for executive orders on this which basically means as a presidential candidate she's expressing no interest whatsoever to work with the congress on such a complex issue. >> i get -- i've just got to keep asking this, though, because it is important and for those supportive of donald trump who early on loved his hard-line stance of 11 million illegals and immigrants got to leave undocumented workers and got to leave. he is no longer saying that. he has changed his position. >> i hope that he is saying that you don't just look at people and try to harm them or treat them inhumanely. that is very important and it is leadership and presidential and i hope these questions of you are asked as hillary clinton when it comes to tpp, and trade promotion and she literally has diverged from. >> she talked about the gold standard right before the debate. >> right and i also think that, and she differs from president obama and others on this so that

is true, but anyway, i want people to focus on the choice here. that is what i think most important. i think this entire campaign has been so centered on personality and not principles on individuals and not ideas. and on the issue of immigration, i invite everybody to see how different they are and make their choice. >> didn't that benefit donald trump certainly early on in the primary when he stood on stage with 16 others who he called low energy. he stood out because of his personality and people liked his, what they view of telling it like it is. he gave interviews to a ton of people and i gave him credit for that from the beginning. he spoke to people he probably shouldn't have spoken to but he wasn't afraid to go into interviews you can argue whether that was wise. he has cut back. he is only giving interviews to fox these days. i gave him a lot of credit for that. the point is, though, what we heard from him during the primary season which a lot of people picked him in the primary

because of his tough stance on immigration, this is an evolution of his position. >> his tough stance on immigration will not change and it will be a priority in his -- >> the wall is still. >> he says mexico will pay for it and a lot of different tenants. >> but it is changing. >> he is examining on how to execute. i think he deserves tremendous credit. so many typical politicians, anderson, don't bother figuring out the details. how will we execute and implement. it is a laundry list of -- >> i have no problem with somebody evolving. obviously something should evolve. it is weird not to actually say this is a change of policy. >> i think also to compare him to the people that he ran against, i think amnisty was the death. he will not be for that. ha is not what he is say saeg about this either. i think under hillary clinton's plan it is a complete open borders. we talked about build the water, border security, roughly 40% or so of the immigration, the

illegal immigration here, people over stayed their visas. they didn't cross the border, they just stayed on a visa and never went back. a lot of people think that is unfair. if you can -- we're the most generous country. >> we're going to take a break. about not everybody is going to leave. >> looking at the mechanism, no touch back but looking at the mechanism and making sure that whatever the policy is that he implements as he has said in the past it is done humanely and fairly. we know there are people involved here. >> we have to take one more break. we'll talk about the theories about some of the ideas that have been put forward by trump surrogates about hillary clinton's health and we'll keep an eye on the stage where donald trump will be speaking any minute now. ♪

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kinda. i was just checking my credit score on credit karma. i wish i was that on top of it. you could be. totally. it's free okay i'll try it. ah credit karma. give yourself some credit. may i? uhhh. yeah. ok jane? text me sometime okay our partnership with habitat for humanity at pg&e, we believe solar should be accessible to everyone.

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she's in, quote, excellent physical condition and i want to show what trump and others have been saying >> one thing she doesn't have the strength or the stamina coupled with all of the other problems that this country has. >> what's new are the other reports of the observations of hillary clinton's behavior and mannerisms specifically with what you just showed in those previous clips as well as her disfacia and the fact that she's fallen. >> all i can tell you is i'm not a doctor, and i'm not diagnosing it, but she's not even doing press conferences and she's doing such few events compared to donald trump. >> she looks sick. >> go online and put down hillary clinton illness, take a look at the videos for yourself. >> are you, as a new campaign manager comfortable with these people diagnosing, we know far more about her health situation

based on her doctor's reports that donald trump. >> i'm glad to hear that secretary clinton is healthy and i would wish nothing else. i'm not a doctor and she's not my patient. that's not really my style. what i do see is a strategy that has nothing to do with her health. just a strategy of scarcity, if we just don't put her out there people will forget they don't like her and they don't much trust her and so we'll make this election just about donald trump and right -- but, but, it's also a strategy that your candidate is talking about her stamina. >> that's different. >> that you have mayor giuliani of all people telling people to go to the internet and people go to the internet and look up stuff about 9/11 and he won't be happy about it nor should he because it's lies. should donald trump be out there talking about, giving perhaps a wink-wink on this whole conspiracy and there is no evidence she has a health problem.

>> i'm not a doctor, but i can see someone who is not very joyful on the trail, doesn't seem to like the rigors of campaigning, but it's not tied to her health for me at all because i'm not qualified to answer that question. what i would say is that voters expect and probably deserve to see more of their candidates on a regular basis and i'll tell you, anderson, i've been straight about this from the beginning and i'll repeat it on your show for you and your viewers. i want to beat her on the issues. i want to have a great debate on the issues and i'm hoping they can do that. there will be debates and we'll wait for debates to talk about the differences on immigration and health care and the economy and energy and isis. she calls them our determined enemies. >> why are the surrogates for your campaign making up this stuff time and time again. >> i haven't heard as much this week, have you? >> well, no, but it's out there. they've been saying it. rudy giuliani just said it, i don't know, a couple of days ago. >> i am so thrilled that mayor

giuliani came out as did governor chris christie of new jersey came out and two former prosecutors coming out and ask for a special prosecutor. >> why not say there is no evidence of a health problem rather than go on the internet and look at the videos and you'll see her tripping on a stairwell into an airplane a while ago? >> i would say that i appreciate that governor and i was trying to finish my sentence and i'll get back to it and he came out with a statement that said voters deserve to get to the truth before they cast their votes and it's a poignant way of looking at to really encapsulate for people who care about the state department and the clinton foundation. >> we know more about hillary clinton's health than we know about donald trump's health. his doctor, the only thing we really know about his health is from this letter that his doctor put out at the request of the campaign. it's a letter like most many people, many observers and other

doctors who we've interviewed have never heard the doctor write before. not only is the grammar wrong, there are spelling mistakes and there is a website that was defunct and he says he's a fellow of gastroenterology and he hasn't been since 1995. he says he's a be in of the g.i. division of the hospital in new york. he's actually not. i mean, is the campaign going to be putting out anything more about donald trump's health if they're raising all these questions about hillary clinton? >> i'll need to discuss that with mr. trump directly because it is a very personal matter and again, i can tell you, it's very difficult to keep up with this man on a daily basis. his energy and stamina for someone who is 70 years old and he's been in two or three that day. he loves campaigning and he loves being out with the people and i think that is important to him. that's not a contrast to her,

>> but to him it's very important for him to sort of keep that pace. >> although arguably, hillary clinton has a lot of meetings with small groups of people. >> five fund raisers tonight. >> has a big rally and goes into the city, has a big rally and then leaves and it's a different style of campaigning, but i'm not sure you can say that hillary clinton doesn't campaign as hard or hasn't been campaigning as hard certainly the last couple of weeks she's been focusing on fund raisers. >> i'm not going to put a domino on either one of them. i think the style of campaignings are so different. >> we can put fitbits on both if you want. >> i could use one. >> seriously speaking, when it comes to campaigning, their styles are very different, and i think she has four or five fund raisers today. she's hanging out with celebrities and. >> and he's with the parents of the children who were killed with families killed by illegal immigran immigrants. she has had 300 fundraisers not open to the press.

226 days with no press conference. i think this is all relevant to what do the voters deserve? in other words, the way you're running your campaign, how it intersects with what voters deserve and expect. i like our odds better than hers. >> as i said, i'll give credit for donald trump early on. is he going to start doing that again? because he's only been giving interviews to fox news and i'm not saying this about personal interest, and not cnn or anyone else and he hasn't done any other interview other than george stephanopoulos, other than about the khans which didn't go so well. >> i know i'm chopped liver compared to the candidate. >> we've done 40 minutes with you. we're very happy to have you here. >> for everyone on twitter that will attack you for putting me on the platform, you at least appreciate democracy and free thinking and there are two candidates in this race and we very much appreciate the platform, and i will pass that on to the boss that we had a great experience here. tough questions and fair

questions, and the platform, but i look on. >> i'm not booking an interview and i think you'll have to travel around the country and follow him because we're doing the advanced schedule now and it is grueling and all he wants to do is add to it. he called me several times today. i want to go there. he can't get enough of being with the people. >> it does seem since you've come on i've noticed a big change and last week which was the best week they've had and they've had in a long, long time and it very much sounds like donald trump and donald trump and a.p.e.c. to the first time he's used a teleprompter, but other folks wrote it and it didn't sound like -- it was like donald trump trying to be somebody else. his speeches sound like donald trump, you can agree with it or not, but it is more controlled. am i wrong? >> that's what many americans are concluding and this is why when people say you have to

change, you have to change, you have to change. nobody can change. we've seen with so many politicians what happens when they listen to a focus group to tell them what they believe and what to do. polls are great for telling you that this is the message that you're intending to convey to america, but they're not hearing it, so you need to do better in delivering that. i think that he has to be authentic and true to himself above all else, but to your point, anderson, as someone who has known and observed him over the years, you've seen him as his true self. my only goal was for the rest of america to start to see what those of us who have been in his company personally and professionally has seen which is a fun-loving, gregarious, generous and loving human being who happens to be running for president of the united states. so you can't look -- he's got to be himself and you see him being himself and you see him being himself with substantive speeches that people can look at. you can disagree with him and

say i don't like your ten-point veterans reform plan and i don't want like your policy for -- >> and for the record, never hung out with him or hillary clinton. >> thank you for being here. >> we asked the clinton campaign if they'd like a senior official to come on the program tonight, as well. they declined. >> a lot more ahead as we await donald trump's speech in austin, texas. >> we have the endangered species act and 200 species proposed to be added to that list. energy is a complex challenge. people want power. and power plants account for more than a third of energy-related carbon emissions. the challenge is to capture the emissions before they're released into the atmosphere. exxonmobil is a leader in carbon capture. our team is working to make this technology better, more affordable so it can reduce emissions around the world. that's what we're working on right now. ♪

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i'm all done with this guy. box him up. that's terrible.

we're waiting to hear from donald trump. he'll be speaking at a rally in austin, texas and before the break you saw the conversation with kellyanne conway and whether he's making a break from what he campaigned on in the primary. >> to that point, donald trump earlier on said that 11 million people have to leave and we're not going to hear that anymore from donald trump and he is no longer saying 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country all have to leave.

they're going to be removed and we'll look at what he said tonight with respect to that because he said he's not flip-flopping on immigration and he wants to find -- >> that seems like a flip-flop and the way to execute on his principles, anderson, without hurting people. >> a flip-flop is a political criticism. it does look like a change in policy, right? it's wisely or not, whatever it may be, it certainly seems like a change in policy. >> what i know, too, is i can't find an issue where he and secretary clinton are very different and she has expressed support for executive orders on this which basically means as a presidential candidate she's expressing no interest whatsoever to work with the congress on such a complex issue. >> i get -- i just have to keep asking this, though because it is important and for those supportive of donald trump who early on loved his hard-line stance of 11 million illegal immigrants got to leave, undocumented workers got to leave. he is no longer saying that. he has changed his position.

>> i hope they're saying what he says, anderson which is you don't just look at people and try to harm them or treat them inhumanely. >> lots to discuss with the panel and christine quinn and paul begala, trump supporters patrick healy, and cnn legal analyst paul kelen. jeff, it does sound like he's changed his position, no? >> he's no longer saying 11 undocumented workers have to leave and the good ones can come back. >> as i was listening to your conversation with kellyanne it reminds me of ronald reagan was we win, they lose. he was criticized a lot for not meeting with soviet leaders and he cracked at one point they keep dieing on me and he didn't and there was a method to this. eventually, he did. was there a change in that sense? yes. was there a change in the ultimate policy saying in this case with donald trump that every country has borders?

no. i don't see that at all. how you get there is probably going to change. >> if somebody once said 11 million people, got to leave and the good ones can come back, whatever that means. he is not saying 11 million people have to leave and the criminals and those convicted of crimes have to leave. >> those convicted of crimes and every one of those 11 million >> but his essential policy of having borders on this country. >> you're not going to answer this question. andre, does it sound like a change of policy to you? >> it does sound like a softening in policy which i don't have a problem with, you know, clearly, all of us evolve through life, the more information we get and -- >> i'm just wondering how the other folks and the other republicans who were on those debate stages with him and you can't deport 11 million people are now thinking -- >> they will be endorsing them

tomorrow. >> i'm not sure john kasich will endorse him. >> this is absolutely a flip flop and change in policy. donald trump for the last year plus has rocketed to the top based off of his tough stance on immigrati immigration, starting with the mexican rapist comments when he first announced. other people like marco rubio, john casish, jeb bush who were excoriated for supporting immigration reform. they were run out of town because of the position that donald trump is now taking today. he is saying that the criminals should be the priority, that he is saying that there should be an increase in border security, increase in border patrol, internal enforcement. all of those things are the same things of the guys i just mentioned. >> it is also about tone and language. in the primaries with interviews with me and others. he would say they got to go,

folks, these people got to go. it was very tough language. he feels like he won the primary in part because he was willing to say in very bliunt, emotiona language what resonated. tonight, 180 degrees different from what kellyanne told you saying it has to be fair and humane. >> he never said that before. >> he even used the word softening. >> this is a new trump for the next 11 weeks. this is a clear, game plan that they have that kellyanne conway has -- >> is this about reaching out to independents and oddodds? >> this is donald trump being remarkably consistent. he is a con man. always will be. . the trump hotel that is being refur bishoped, the old post office, washington post committed journalists. they found

this has always been a con for trump. he no more cares about immigration than the man in the moon. he conned the far right in the primaries and trying to con the folks in the general. i don't think it's going to work. that's why he's trailing. the only thing he's been authentic about is being an insult comic from the beginning to end of this. this has all been a con for him. >> he demagogued to zen people up in the primary. in 2012, he complained mitt romney was quote, too mean spirited in his immigration policy and commended democrats for having it right with just little variations on the policy because they were kind. >> let's get jeffrey lord's response. >> he was saying a version of this to me two years ago before he was running for president. long before he was running for president. i mean, i am hearing a version -- >> jeffrey, essentially you're saying he's still tough on immigration. i get you're saying that. but just -- honestly, if one

month you say 11 million people got to leave, the good ones can come back, now you're saying you're not saying they have to leave anymore. that is a change. yes? >> yes. >> yes. >> okay. >> wait, wait, wait. it's a change but it's not a change in the end game. >> he wants to be tough on immigration. sure, fine. >> he still says build the wall, right? >> for now. yes. >> how is there not an etch a sketch element to this? the degree to which he said what he needed to do to win the primary and now he's hoping he can say what he needs to do to win in the suburbs. >> it's all about donald trump saying whatever he needs to say at whatever moment to benefit his own game. >> which by the way the trump campaign will quickly say hillary clinton -- >> we're talking about donald trump right now. >> we all do that in life, but to get back to jeffry's point this is like ronald reagan not changing how he negotiates with the communists, it's like ronald reagan joining the communists party.

this is nuts. this is what he launched his campaign on. i think, very racist announcement speech calling mexican immigrants rapists and murderers, some are good people he says. this has been the heart of his campaign. now he thinks 76 days from the election he's going to change. have the facts changed? no, of course not. the politics have. that's the only plausible explanation. >> the day after the primary, if that was the case, if the end game was to appeal to new -- >> because they were up in the polls. >> exactly. >> this is the difference. two words. kellyanne conway. kellyanne knows this issue well. she was one of the ten-plus pollsters that participated in a mark zuckerberg pro survey during 2014 for immigration reform. mark zuckerberg was a big proponent of immigration reform. republicans were trying to figure out what to do. kellyanne was part of that. in a memo she co-authored she

said the majority of americans agree to a pathway to citizenship of some sort and that tea party members did not see that immigration reform as amnesty and would benefit the republicans with swing voters not only in 2014 but the next election. she understands the politics behind this issue so i know kellyanne has talked to him and said you got to soften on this issue because it doesn't resonate any other way. 71% of the american people believe in a pathway to legalization. 80%-plus of republicans believed in that. she co-authored that survey. >> it's so important to note that today donald trump, you know, is saying kellyanne conway's language. >> right. >> remember, tonight a rally. >> no doubt about it. >> tomorrow a rally in tampa. >> no doubt about it. >> tomorrow night a rally in jackson, mississippi. >> yes. >> can donald trump control himself, control himself to stay on message during a 60-minute rally and not lapse into one of those clauses, one of those subclauses?

>> let jeffrey respond. i don't -- >> i was just -- give you a good example here. i was with donald trump a couple weeks ago. about five miles from my home in central pennsylvania. and he never once, to go back to that khan controversy, mention the khans. not once. either in private conversation with me or on the stage. the people i talked to never mentioned the khans. i came home and turned on the television and that's all it was about. donald trump gave a speech that he was total on message throughout. >> what is the message? makes a great point about the rallies. he's finally running ads. great for him. he's running ads in a more conventional politician way. what's the ad? it's demagoguing immigration. it's not softening. look at the ad. >> kellyanne came on board. >> that's exactly right. >> that's my point. >> this is not about principle. >> he's trying to send -- kellyanne, very able person, a few months ago was on this network saying, i quote, trump

built his businesses on the backs of the little guy, has a history of not paying his contractors. i hopelkellyanne, i hope he's paying her enough. >> donald trump has been plummeting in the polls. >> his way to get back. >> his political team trying to figure out what to change, how to rechange, reset to try to get him minimally stable and hopefully upticking in the polls. >> is it going to work? >> i don't think it is going to work. americas can't -- they know what he said. they know how racist he was. people are not going to forget the time -- >> a new "l.a. times" poll today, up 15 points in utah which he should be winning but as we know recently we were talking about him being in trouble there. >> even that conversation -- >> only 39% tsh. >> whether you think this is a flip-flop, a change in position, he's learned more about the

issue, do you think it will help him in the general? >> i do. >> you do. >> and others who might -- >> sure. clearly he was a hardened candidate in the primary. he is softening. people like kellyanne giving him a different perspective. that's part of being a leader. you get folks in that give you insight from other -- >> we got to take another quick break. we expect donald trump speaking tonight in texas. a lot more ahead.

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good evening. thanks for joining us. looking at the donald trump rally in austin, texas. jeff sessions is at the podium, himself. the candidate, himself, running behind schedule. he's expected to make news making what appears on the face of it to be a distinct change in his policy on the people in this country illegally, what he, himself, this afternoon called a softening. our jason carroll is in austin, he joins us with the latest. we talked to kellyanne conway about this softening. what are you hearing about it? >> reporter: first of all let me tell you, you were just mentioning senator jeff sessions. i spoke to him and asked him this question about something donald trump said earlier today where he talked about possibly softening his position on illegal immigration and let me give you the proper context.