good evening. thanks for joining us. we begin tonight with breaking news. representative elija cummings has released an e-mail exchange between secretary of state colin powell and then secretary of state hillary clinton. the exchange took place two days after clinton was sworn in and there are new details tonight

about the decision to not charge clinton in the investigation to her use of a private server and fbi director james comey speaking out about that in very stark terms tonight. justice correspondent evan perez joins me now with late details and let's talk about this exchange between clinton and powell. what does it is a, exactly? >> anderson, it helps to put some context here. remember this was back in 2009 and president obama had to get special permission to use a blackberry issued the by the nsa he was addicted to using the blackberry. and mrs. clinton was asking colin powell for advice on using her blackberry. she sends an e-mail in which she says colin what was your restriction on using a blackberry? did you use it in your personal office? i've been told that diplomatic security personnel knew that you had one and used it, but no one fesses up to knowing how you used it. president obama has struck a blow for berry addicts like us. i have to figure out how to

bring along the state department and colin powell responds. i didn't have a blackberry, what i did, i used a personal computer that was hooked up to a private phone line and it sounds ancient, he says, so i could communicate with a wide range of friends directly without going through the state department service. i even used it to do business with some foreign leaders, and some senior folks and the department on personal e-mail accounts. i did the same thing on the road in hotels and anderson, what you are getting a picture here from this e-mail exchange that the democrats have released is simply that, you know, not only that secretary clinton used private e-mail while she was in office, but colin powell used it and in essence, what she did was not unusual and if you talked to fbi and what was released last week they'll show you what she did was extraordinary, she did all of her government business while using a private server that was established at her home

at chappaqua, new york. >> some of these details were in the fbi's report which were released last friday, what, if anything, is really new here. >> we haven't seen this letter. >> right. we've not seen this letter before and there was a little bit of detail that was released previously in the new york times and the new york times previously wrote an article citing a forthcoming book that clinton seems to suggest that powell suggested that she used a private server and that's not what you get from reading this e-mail exchange, however. >> the news of fbi director comey, how does he defend his findings in the e-mail investigation? >> what he says is this was not a cliffhanger and he's been getting a lot of heat, as you know, not only from republicans and donald trump and internally from fbi folks and former fbi agents who are doing interviews on television and certainly when he's met with them they've told him that not only is it extraordinary for him to give so much detail about a case in

which they didn't bring charges, and also some of them are openly critical of the idea not to charge secretary clinton with what they believe is a grave, grave error in judgment. so what he is saying today is this is simply not a cliffhanger. it wasn't even close, and he's saying that people who don't have access to all of the information of the case are full of baloney and that's what he said in his memo to employees today. >> there was criticism about the timing of the release of these documents and essentially in the news business we called it a friday night document that was late in the day on friday when a lot of people aren't going to be watching the news and aren't going to be paying attention and a holiday weekend, no less. what did he say about that? >> that's one of the criticisms we heard from paul ryan and he made that same criticism and the internet doesn't shut off at 1:00 p.m. on friday before a holiday and everyone read this and this is a big story on friday and we reported certainly that the fbi was about to release this and one of the things that was happening behind

the scenes, anderson, was that the cia and other agencies were insisting on additional redactions and that's one of the things that held up the release and it happened on friday and we and other news organizations were certainly pushing the fbi to release this as soon as possible. comey said that they released it as soon as it was available. >> we have spent a lot of time friday night on it and still a lot of people were probably elsewhere. i'm impressed. thanks very much. joining me now, christine quinn, and clinton supporter for moveon.org, corinne jean pierre and erica henderson and kayleigh mcnany and jeffrey lord. what do you make of this colin powell exchange with secretary clinton? interesting to read? anything new in the reporting? >> i don't think there's anything new to report, but this is something that hillary clinton has talked about, and the colin powell advice that he apparently gave her in sort of talking about other secretaries of state and had a similar setup

even though she did have a distinctly different setup with the personal server. i think this is elija cummings trying to run interference for hillary clinton. they always complained about selectively leaked documents and i think here is another document that sheds light and gives a little bit of credence to this story that hillary clinton told about colin powell. she, i think, at one point said that he talked about this over dinner and he couldn't remember that. listen, any time you are talking about hillary clinton's e-mails, it's not a good day for hillary clinton and this again, it's the drip, drip, drip of of this and this is what we see in the trustworthy numbers. it helps trump ultimately. >> corinne, is this a good thing from hillary clinton? >> what we saw from comey is there's nothing there. another exoneration.

she didn't do anything illegal. she apologized and said it was a mistake and would never do it again or do it differently, and we should move on now. there is no smoking gun and we need to move on. there is this drip, drip, drip and now this letter comes out and it's understandable. i found it fascinating just to read correspondence between secretary clinton and secretary powell. >> no, that is kind of, if you're a political junkie cool in a way just to see two secretary of states corresponding with each other, but i think it is a drip, drip, but not every drip has to be followed like it's a waterfall and that's what's happening with every piece of information. director comey said it wasn't a cliffhanger, it wasn't close. this is a man, remember, director comey who is above politics above any character assassinations in the way he's conducted his career. so if there's a man you want to say you didn't break the law

it's this guy because he is above reproach and the colin powell correspondents is interesting in the fact that it was raised about the dinner and was it discussed at dinner and he couldn't remember which was totally fair and then secretary of state clinton was attacked as a liar about colin powell when in fact there were conversations whether it was e-mails or letters, there were conversations. so i think this is important because it also puts a period on the end of that sentence and puts it at rest. >> kayleigh, does it put a period at the end of the sentence? >> no. if you look at former secretary powell to former secretary clinton. he says, as a warning, if you use a blackberry for common are government business it might be subject to the law. the law is the federal records act which requires that you turn over your e-mails and any business you conduct the american public is entitled to see. with that clear warning from secretary powell what does

secretary clinton do? she has 13 blackberries. her aides and her proxies proceed to smash them with hammers -- >> two of them. >> two is too many. >> i'm not judging either way, i'm just saying. >> they're lost and they were only able to recover two of these lost devices and two were beaten with sledge hammers despite the fact that she was given a clear warning, that these had to be preserved and not doing so was in direct contradiction of the law. >> i was just going to say, okay. 13 devices. yes, that sounds like a lot, but she didn't use them all -- i'm thinking of the 13. >> she didn't use them all at once. she used them at different times. it seemed like every six months or so she would get a new blackberry for whatever reason she needed to do that. you're putting it out there as if she was hiding something and using 13 black behres and that's certainly something donald trump has raised, but if you read the notes, right? it actually says yes, she used

them all at different times. >> she didn't preserve them and that's the issue and she was required to preserve them and turn them over. we as american citizens are entitled to see what was on those devices that was work-related. >> on the comey exchange coming out and saying look, this wasn't each close and this wasn't a document dump. there are those not only who doubt secretary clinton and those who doubt the fbi. >> the document dump is what does it for me. >> you have no doubt it was a document dump? >> how hard is this? all the director has to say is wait until tuesday. i do think, in the day and age of the internet, dufrms aren't what they used to be. the fact that they could not anticipate that this is a document dump on a holiday weekend and would cause further problems says something in itself.

>> back to the point of the devices, right? she broke no law as the director said and whether it's the lay and you're referring to any other and that's been made clear and put to rest by the director of the fbi and a man above reproach, but also let's think about all of ourselves when our devices when we're done with them, we trash them and we destroy them and you retain the material. i actually am glad that the secretary of state had people destroy her devices because you don't want all of that information going out. >> they were not secretary -- >> the rest of us are not secretary of state. >> i'm glad that happened because i don't want her old devices floating around. >> she deleted 15,000 e-mails and used bleach to bleach e-mails. >> she turned over information in an unprecedented amount and the director of the fbi said it wasn't even close. >> she did not turn over the work-related e-mails. >> it wasn't a cliffhanger and it wasn't each close.

this is a man all of us on both sides of the aisle have to give kudos to. >> in the comey exchange -- >> that's not illegal. >> he did -- they considered waiting until tuesday and he promised transparency and he knew there would be blowback for releasing on friday and that was his reasoning that if he'd waited until tuesday some people would say you're holding on. >> i don't understand why that would be such a big problem. i mean, document dumps and the very fact that we call them document dumps is a whole long history here in washington, d.c., which most people in america don't pay attention to thankfully. >> unlike the rest of us who follow every thing of this sort of stuff and he had to know this would be a problem. >> if it was a document dump it would have ended up this big somewhere on page 37 of the newspaper. it is clearly not a document dump because it's wednesday and we're still talking about it.

>> there you go. >> i've never heard that before. >> i want to thank everybody time for a quick break. when we come back, donald trump says the u.s. military is falling behind and he'd build it back up with more spending and more troops and a short plan to beat isis and his position in fighting isis has changed several times from saying he had a secret plan to having the generals come up with a plan. we'll have all of that next. and can you explain to me why you recommend synthetic over cedar? "super food"? is that a real thing? it's a great school, but is it the right the one for her? is this really any better than the one you got last year? if we consolidate suppliers what's the savings there? so should we go with the 467 horsepower? or is a 423 enough? good question. you ask a lot of good questions... i think we should move you into our new fund. ok. sure. but are you asking enough about how your wealth is managed? wealth management, at charles schwab.

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then one day, hr schedules a meeting with you out of the blue. and it's the worst 19 minutes of your career. but you don't sweat it because you and your advisor have prepared for this. and when the best offer means you're moving to the middle of nowhere, the boys say they hate the idea. but you pretend it's not so bad. and years later at thanksgiving, when one of them says what he's thankful for most, is this house, you realize you didn't plan for any of this you wouldn't have done it any other way. with the right financial partner, progress is possible. >> donald trump held two events today both with the focus on the u.s. military. the big takeaway, he would increase military spending everything from the number of troops and the number of planes and ships and he took shots at hillary clinton calling her trigger happy and unstable when it comes to foreign policy. in a statement the clinton campaign said trump can't rely on facts when he's criticized so he relies on insults like a school yard bully. sunlen serfaty is with trump. let's talk about the specifics of what he had to offer.

>> reporter: notably, anderson, donald trump did not specify exactly how large that increase in military spending would actually be. we do know that he would want to eliminate the military sequester cuts from 2013 which a trump campaign official tells cnn, they believe that would amount to $500 billion of reinvestment over the next ten years and we did see a little bit of where donald trump would want to use some of that and he spoke broadly about increasing troop levels and increasing military aircraft and increasing ships and what he called a retooling of the military. anderson? >> he drew sharp contrasts between his plans and those of secretary clinton. >> reporter: that's right. he used some weighty words today in describing where he sees those contrasts. he called secretary clinton trigger happy, unstable, reckless. these are big words that he's using to draw that distinction, and it was notable to me that he really seemed to be making the temperament argument almost an admission that they do have to

have some time to pay some time on this. the questions are on his temperament to be president. donald trump tonight trying to put the own us on hillary clinton, not himself and paint himself as the steady hand at the wheel. sunlen, thanks very much. >> he failed to use his phrase knock the hell out of isis. if elected on day one, he'll convene the top generals and submit a plan in 30 days to quickly defeat isis and it is a confounding notion for many reasons not the least of which that trump has boasted that he knows more about isis than the generals do, and that's just one example of what he has said about fighting isis over the past couple of months and is big on tough talk and short on nuance and sometimes contradictory. listen. >> i have a plan. i promise, i don't have a plan. i don't want to tell it. we want to be unpredictable. >> i know more about isis than

the generals do, believe me. >> i would listen to the generals, but i'm hearing numbers of 20,000 to 30,000. we need to knock them out. >> i wouldn't send many troops because you wouldn't need them by the time i'm finished. >> you have to knock them out. >> you have to fight them. >> yes. >> bomb the hell out of them. >> why are we letting isis go and fight assad and then we pick up the remnants? >> you would rule in the possibility of using nuclear weapons against isis. >> i'm never going to rule anything out. >> joining us is fareed zakaria host of fareed zakaria gps and retired army lieutenant general mark hertling and i appreciate all of you being with us. fareed, how big of a problem is it that donald trump seems to have evolved, if it's the right

word, referring generals to get a plan together when previously he said he has a plan and it's a secret plan and take the hell out of iraq and bomb the hell out of the oil and more troops, less troops? >> as with almost anything trump says you know there is no thought through public policy or strategy. he's sort of winging it and every day depending on the crowd, he says what he thinks at that moment, either the crowd wants to hear or what moves him. so, you know, it's in a sense part of a pattern. the important thing to understand here is that his most recent incarnation which is that he'll ask the generals and mark hertling and company to come up with a plan in 30 days to defeat isis, and it's sort of meaningless, because the u.s. military is the strongest armed force in the history of the world. isis is probably 30,000 likely armed insurgents. the united states military could defeat isis within two or three months under any circumstances.

the problem, the question is what do you do then? you now own real estate in syria and iraq. who's going to run it? that's what's been stopping the united states military from doing that. the problem we have is you defeat isis. you take over mosul. you take over raqqah. who's going to run it? >> general hertling, is that to you part of the problem that it's not just a question of militarily defeating a force and engagements on the battlefield? >> it certainly is, anderson. you have to have the government there after you defeat the force to take over. we've seen that multiple times in afghanistan and iraq over the last 16 years. what fareed said is exactly on target and the other thing, i'm not sure i would agree with fareed completely if we had the u.s. military there we could complete the destruction of this force in two months. we had less than this in terms of al qaeda and what happens is they fade away. unless you hava know indigenous force that's actually fighting the enemy where they know they

are and where they can talk with other people it sometimes becomes counterproductive and it is best in these situations to let the indigenous forces do it and at the same time make sure there is a government to support that indigenous force. that's where we've gotten in trouble in both afghanistan and iraq. we've tried to do too much. >> it is interesting that you don't hear him saying as much and whether he still believes it or not, surround the oilfields and take iraq's oil as sort of to the victory goes the spoils which is the term that he referenced recently and get oil companies in to pump it out and surround them with u.s. troops and take the oil and it does sound like he's trying to appeal to other people or some of his military advisers have put forward some meat on the bone of troop levels. >> well, yeah, anderson, the idea of taking over the oilfields is a non-starter. first of all, it would be difficult to do it. it could be done and it would be

a very difficult thing to do on a consistent basis and on a continuous basis. >> it's also taking the oil of a sovereign nation which is our ally and probably irritating just about everybody is not already hateful of the united states there. >> well, that's right. and it would be one of the moef difficult things from that standpoint diplomatically. what you want to do is you want to have the oil as part of the healing process for the sovereign nation and the day after the invasion and the day after the occupation, you want something there so that it can sustain the indigenous population as well as that new state that you're trying to develop and failure to do that would be very short sighted and it fits in with general hertling's point that you need to plan for the day after next when you do take over territory and when you come up with plans to defeat a group like isis you need to know how you will fulfill that. >> how much of this do you think is donald trump trying to reach out to some undecided voters or

independent voters or at least trying to seem more presidential than perhaps earlier on when saying bomb the hell out of them which is appealing to people in the primary. >> we've seen something of of a trump pivot. him standing there in front of those flags. this speech in part is reaching out to establishment republicans. at times it was like listening to mitt romney when he talked about adding 100,000 more troops in terms of elevating the levels of folks in the army, increasing the number of naval ships and that is boilerplate republicanism. he name dropped the heritage foundation twice, i think, but then there is the isolationist trump, right? who in some ways sound like barack obama of 2008 when he talks about the need to diplomacy, and decries hillary clinton for military venturism. so there's a trump for all seasons and i think that's going to make it very hard for the hillary clinton campaign to

really try to nail him down. they want one trump. they want the primary trump, but he has a lot of different iterations, i think, and we saw that with his speech tonight. >> he says hillary clinton is trigger happy, but he's going to bomb the hell out of isis, right? >> this is the problem. it's almost shadow boxing because he changes his position so quickly that you don't quite know which position you have to attack. >> general hertling, he's talking about the numbers of troop levels and numbers of naval vessels. i guess there's an argument to be made and clearly some people believe that's the right way to go and others argue that the conflicts of the future is not just about numbers of ships or numbers of planes. >> yeah. we wanted details from donald trump. we got them today during his speech, anderson. if i can go back just a second before i answer that question. it has to be that the american people wanting a simple solution when he talks to them.

this has no simple solution, isis, i'm talking about, and our wars. the question that military and strategic leaders have asked, what does this look like when it's all over? if you're just talking about a battleground where there are a lot of bad people, you have to solve a problem. from the standpoint of building the forces that he said today, there's definitely some need to rebuild the u.s. military. we are challenged and we are tired and we are worn out and the equipment is beat up after 16 years of the fight. it's going to take some monetary contributions to take things back to normal, but when you're talking about designing a force for the future, it isn't a large navy with the number of ships. it may not be brigades and battalions and numbers of aircrafts and it may be more special operations forces. these are the kind of things he got into because of the heritage institute and what they fed him, but it might not be the force that we're looking for. >> i want to thank everybody and much more to talk about ahead and trump is throwing out a lot

of numbers about how the military is falling behind. do the numbers add up? we'll take a reality check next. ♪ [engine revs] ♪ [cheering] ♪

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>> as we mentioned, donald trump called for more military

spending, more troop, more ships, more submarines and planes. he didn't say how much the increase in military spending would be, but he did throw out a number. tom foreman has a reality check. >> he did put some hard numbers on how he thinks the military is falling behind. >> we currently have the smallest army since 1940. the navy is among the smallest it has been since 1915. that's 100 years ago, and the air force is the smallest it's been since 1947. >> those are very stark numbers, but let's put some reality on that. if you look at u.s. armed forces, right now there are about 1,015,000 people if you count active, guard and reserves and apply the same metric to the rest of the military you have 1.1 million more in the navy, marines and air force.

compare it when world war ii was raging more than 16 million people served. they all are weighed down and that accounts for the army and the air force. let's talk about the serious naval hardware where they're moving big vessels around. they account from 271 from 2015. if you go all of the way back to 1915, as he did, 231 vessels and yeah, world war ii again, very big jump, more than 6,000 out there. what is not being mention individual of this, however, is what modern technology brings to the game and how modern weapons systems multiply force. you don't need nearly as many people to project tremendous force out there so if you're comparing, fighting power, it's just not apples to apples if you look at these different metrics out there, anderson. because he doesn't do that even though his numbers are basically right, we have to say that trump's statement is true, but misleading.

>> what about in relation to other nations? >> if you compare it based on military spending to the top ten nations in the world. >> look, down here at the bottom you will have places leak south korea, germany and japan at 41 million and jump to the middle you have the uk at 56 billion and you have russia up here around 66 billion and then saudi arabia, interestingly enough and china with 215 billion, but that's only nine of the top ten. ad the u.s. and look at this and almost 600 billion in spending there and almost as much as the other nine of the top ten combined, anderson? >> thanks very much. back with the panel. republican political commentator and trump supporter paris denard. it's interesting, when trump says we need to get rid of the sequester it's sort of president obama's position, as well.

>> it has been his position for a while. it's clinton's position as well and there has been an impasse on capitol hill over this because the republicans want they is quester that covers defense without lifting the spending caps on the domestic side and there's an impasse because democrats want to lift the cap to the domestic side and i'll call on congress to end the sequester and it isn't clear that he has the horses in congress to do that. >> it's also interesting, kayleigh, compared to what donald trump said on fox news about budget sequestration. >> it's a very small percentage of the cuts that should be made, and i think really it's being over exaggerated. frankly, this is a minor amount of the cuts that have to be made ultimately and a lot of people are saying that. >> is that in your mind, evolution on his position? >> i think he's fine with the idea of cutting. i think for him it's the defense portion and it was the democrats that pushed if we're going to

cut, we're going to cut from defense, as well. i think he's fine with the idea of cutting. generally today he talked about the idea of cutting military bureaucracy. bureaucracy is okay, but what's not okay he cited the army chief of staff who said this country is at high risk. we are not in the capacity if we were attacked by an aggressive nation state like russia or china, we don't have the capacity to fight back. that is the army chief of staff who trump cited in his speech and that is his concern and he is absolutely right to want to turn that around. >> in terms of his strategy against isis, early on in his campaign, bombing iraq oilfields and he talked about taking the oil and surrounding it with troops and getting u.s. oil companies in and actually taking the oil of iraq, and then it was -- he knew more than the generals and he had a secret plan and he didn't want to talk about it and now he's talking about reaching out to the generals in 30 days, is he changing his position or do you

see it all continue? >> i think what mr. trump is doing is showing the american people that he is open to finding the best solution to fight this issue of terrorism. when you look at the cnn poll that came out, it showed him he was leading on the issue of fighting terrorism. so i think the american people understand where he's coming from and appreciate the fact that he's laying out his position very clearly and they're responding in kind to that. >> general hertling, do you agree with what kayleigh said that the u.s. couldn't handle an attack from russia or china? >> it's part of the threat analysis, anderson. you have to continually do that on what we call the qdr, it's a yearly report of what are the main threats out there and what kind of things do we have to do? >> we would certainly be on the boundary if we had to go force on force with both china and russia or both at the same time, but the question then becomes is do you build a military, a two-front military that would be

able to handle that? we've done that before in the past and it broke us as a nation. so do you spend all your money on building this large force that has the potential for going against russia and china? or do you do what's just right? and that's the tough part about force building and how you bring the qdr and troop to task analysis to it. certainly, you have to consider all threats and it's more than russia and china and it's how you fight with your allies and that's why it's so important to pull nato into this and you might be a big force if you're the u.s. acting alone and if you built an engagement with and that's part of the importance of finding out what happens when you go to other countries and how you can't insult our allies that might be willing to fight with you. corin it is probably an

advantageous position that donald trump is in, if you believe the current wars are not being fought properly or dragging on too long or it's not the right strategy. he is seen as a change agent where secretary clinton essentially is more of the same. i mean, she was an architect. she was behind a lot of the u.s. foreign policy to libra and other countries. >> look, anderson, we have to remember that this is the same guy who used military families as a prop to avoid debating. this is the same guy that had to be shamed into giving veteran organizations money. there's only one person in this race that has the demeanor, that has the experience, and the know how on how to be commander in chief. >> to corinne's point, voters don't seem to buy that. if you look at the latest cnn/orc polling, 51% favor donald trump over hillary clinton on handling terrorism, for instance. >> and the vast majority of people polled also put hillary clinton way up in issues of foreign affairs which are clearly related to this. i think what americans want to know is that their next

president is going to be somebody who takes this issue seriously and is prepared to lead in a level-headed, smart way. when you have somebody like donald trump making an absurd statement like i know more than the generals. there isn't a general that would say he or she knows more than the generals saying that when he has no military experience at all and then goes to the absurdity of a secret plan which just sounds childish, quite frankly to now ordering the generals to come up with a plan in 30 days you don't have someone who gives the american people confidence and that's what they want. >> we have to talk more about this, but we do have to take a quick break. we have much more ahead including the pressure for donald trump to release his tax returns and we'll take a closer look at what his records may contain that he may not want the public to see. more on that ahead.

over the weekend, mike pence says he'll release his tax returns this week and donald trump has not budged on the issue even though hillary clinton -- and it is a big break in tradition and every party nominee since richard nixon has released tax returns. trump says voters don't care. the recent quinnipiac poll

believes otherwise. among republican likely voters, 62% says he should make the returns public. trump's refusal, what they might contain and why he may not want the public to see them. phil mattingly reports. >> donald trump claims he can't release his tax returns while under routine audit. there is no legal requirement for trump to withhold them. >> i am under audit and the routine audit and when the audit is complete i will release the returns. >> the irs returns of the 2002 to 2008 returns is complete and evening his own running mate, mike pence preparing to release his taxes this week. >> i'll give mine to you all this week, and he's going to provide his after a routine audit is done. >> trump's refusal has drawn sharp attacks from hillary clinton. >> clearly, his tax returns tell

a story that the american people deserve and need to know. >> reporter: and despite trump's contention, a series of polls show voters do, in fact, care about trump's tax returns, so what, exactly aren't voters seeing? >> voters could see the type of taxable income that he has whether it's ordinary income or capital gains income. voters could also learn how much a candidate has given to charity. a cnn review of trump's document show four potential areas that may shed light on trump's reluctance. number one, trump's charitable giving, an extensive washington post review of trump's charitable donations has raised major questions of what trump's given despite trump's bold claims to the contrary. >> number two, trump's tax rate and it's an issue that dogged the 2012 nominee for months. trump has made clear as a

businessman he's done everything in his power not to pay as much >> i use every single thing in the book. tax as anybody. >> trump's involvement in real estate raises the possibility that he pays nothing at all according to tax experts. >> a taxpayer that owns property, real estate, a building can trade that property for another building and as long as that property is going to be used for investment purposes or in business, the taxpayer won't pay tax on the gain at all. >> in fact, cnn has identified at least three years, 1978, 1979 and 1984 where he definitively paid zero dollars in federal income tax. documents show another two years, 1991 to 1993 where trump likely paid little to no income tax as well and when asked about it during the campaign he's been

hardly forthcoming. >> what is your tax rate? >> it's none of your business. >> the third potential area is trump's net worth. now, to be clear, a few years of tax returns wouldn't shed light on whether trump is actually worth the $10 billion he claim, but it would show trump's net income and adjusted gross income providing more detailed insight than the financial disclosure form filed by trump in may and last, but perhaps most importantly for trump's opponent a detailed release would provide a window into his business connections. >> maybe he doesn't want people to see that he's got some connections. >> trump's own lawyers making it clear that trump's the sole owner in 500 separate entities. those entities engage in hundreds of transactions, deals and new enterprises every year. for the moment, however, there is little indication that trump's returns will be revealed before election day, though trump himself appears willing to make a deal.

>> in the meantime, she has 33,000, mails that she deleted. when is she going to release her e-mails. let her release her e-mails and i'll release my tax returns immediately. >> phil mattingly, cnn, new york. >> a lot to discuss. joining me is tim o'brien and the art of being the donald and trump's net worth is far less than trump claimed and a lawsuit filed against him was dismissed and mallika henderson is back with us. you have seen the returns in the past during the lawsuit and you can't talk about the details of what you saw. what do you think he most does not want people to see? >> i think charitable giving is at the top of the list. he's made charitable giving one of the foundations of his campaign. he hasn't really substantiated all of the large assets he's claimed to have demonstrated as a philanthropist and the wherewithal of all of his businesses and he said he's one of the most successful business

people in america. the tax returns especially if he included his corporate income would demonstrate how robust his businesses are. we'd also get a window on to his operations overseas and he's been highly critical of u.s. businesses for taking jobs out of the united states and we would start to see where his income comes from, and i think first and foremost we get a view of the potential conflicts of interest he'd experience in the oval office. >> we have to take a quick break and when we come back, caylee will talk about this as well. we'll be right back. ♪ 3, 2, 1 [whispered 'rocket']

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. closed captioning brought to you by . we're talking about growing pressure put on by hilary clinton on donald trump to try to release his tax returns. he has not budged on the issues, saying he is waiting for irs to complete the audit. the irs says he is free to release the turns. in fact, the years between 2002 and 2008 is complete. back with tim o'brien always senior political reporter mallika henderson. kellie, what about the argument about why not release the part of the returns that the audit is over for going back several years? >> look, i think voters are entitled the know.donald trump

pays his taxes within the bounds of the law. and they know that. as to the individual tax rate, he is not required by law to release that. he is leading in the trust indicator over hillary clinton by 15 points. >> you don't think people care. >> voters indicate that they care in the polls, but they indicate they trust donald trump by 15 points more than they trust hillary clinton. i think clinton cannot make this argument when she was required to be transparent with her e-mails, she did not turn them over, she was required to turn over the benghazi e-mails, and they were bleechd for eternity. >> i get your argument she is a flawed on this, i can understand that. but in terms of transparency and voters -- should voters have the right to know is the presidential candidate, do they have connections with some foreign powers in terms of business dealings, are those business dealings going to continue, how much taxes have they actually paid, and if they're claiming they've gechb all of this money to charity do voters have the right to know

whether or not it is true? >> they have the right to know if he is paying taxes and he is doing so because he passed audits. he has been the most transparent candidate in this case, doing interviews with hostile folks, giving interviews every day. if he doesn't want to release his individual tax rate, he doesn't need to. >> can you say he's the most transparent candidate since every candidate since nix couldon has released their -- >> yes, and the letter from his doctor was questionable. that's the problem. he wants to make the argument that hillary clinton is hiding and has secrets and isn't transparent, but he hasn't released his tax returns. i think it muddies his argument, but i also think that at this point he has little incentive to release these taxes at this point. he's tied in the national polls, as kayleigh pointed out, he is ahead in some of the metrics like truth worthiness. at this point, you know, i

imagine he will stay in this position. i think voters do seem to want him to release these taxes, but at the same time i don't think a single voter is going to go to the voting booth and say, i'm not going to vote to trump because of his taxes. >> to me it seems like he only has stuff to lose by releasing them now with 60 some days left to go. >> which is why i don't think he will, and i thought for some time that he won't. i think the fact he won't has raised questions in voters' minds about what he is not saying and what he is not revealing. you know, just yesterday he said he wanted to increase defense budget, he wants to raise defense spending dramatically. the defense budget is paid for by taxpayers. if he wants to increase spending in certain areas, is he paying his fair share? is he paying the same amount with average voters? >> i think it is important to point out in the piece we heard, it was mentioned that businesses are given tax breaks to

incentivize them to invest. it is a new answered them to explain to voters. if donald trump received a tax break because he is investing in the community. from a political standpoint it makes sense to leave it out there. >> we have a lot more to discuss in the next hour. donald trump and hillary clinton competenting in a military forum, each sharing how they would conduct themselves as commander-in-chief. we will show you what they said next. it's a very specific moment, the launch window. we have to be very precise. if we're not ready when the planets are perfectly aligned,

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