top of the hour, 11:00 p.m. on the east coast. looking live at charlotte, north carolina. atlanta, georgia, charlotte's on the left-hand side of the screen. atlanta on the right. protests peaceful so far in the streets for the fourth night after this fatal police shooting of keith lamont scott. this is cnn tonight. i'm don lemon. thank you very much for joining us. a midday curfew fast approaching in charlotte. police said they would not enforce the curfew as long as protests were peaceful. we're watching to see if that remai remains. if that holds up, as well. the mayor of charlotte is asking the candidates to stay away at least for now. both have agreed to the mayor's request. we'll talk about that. now to the streets of north carolina and atlanta. we'll get there soonish, as soon

as we can. first to boris sanchez and brian todd. first brian, to you. what are you hearing where you are? >> reporter: well, the protesters last few minutes have been in front of the police station in charlotte. they're trying to figure out their next move. they may be on the move soon. they have been moving all night. i talked to a protest organizer, and he said basically they want to move because they don't trust the police. the police have said they will not break up the protests as long as they're peaceful, this leader said we don't trust it, we want to keep moving. the question is will they keep moving beyond the police station because this is where they wanted to make a statement. they've been chanting, "why wait, release the tapes." they're doing another chant here. we can listen in for a couple of seconds. [ chants ] so really what the -- the point they want to hit home by

stopping here and staying here yelling at the police officers sheer that they are just not accepting the argument by the police chief, by the mayor, by others that they can't release the dash cam and body cam tapes of the scott shooting. the police chief says they can't do it because it might compromise the investigation. the mayor has said we want to release them as soon as possible, but it's the state bureau of investigation who handles it. the bureau said the tapes are in the custody of the police department. each entity seems to be throwing it to the other. that's what's getting neethese people upset. they don't feel the city leaders are coming clean. their argument is release the tapes, and we can get clarity. release the tapes, and we can get transparency here. this is what they've been arguing all night as they've been moving through the city. >> all right. i want you to stand by for me now. i want to get to boris sanchez.

boris, we are just about an hour, little under an hour from the curfew. tell us what's going on. >> reporter: we're on the other side of brian. and as you see, they're this front of the police station. i hear that they're starting to peel off that direction. behind me, there are -- if we look this way, they moved past us. there are large vans stacked with police in riot gear who are following protesters around town. i'm joined by the captain of the charlotte mecklenburg police department. it appears that there's coordination between you and the protesters. can you tell me about that? >> we try. we're here for their safety, working the traffic to make sure they don't get inside where the protesters are. sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't. we respond either way. >> reporter: yesterday there was a curfew at midnight, the sail things tonight. it wasn't enforced yesterday because you said protesters remained peaceful. are you expecting the same tonight, to let them keep going?

>> we hope everything can be peaceful. if so, we can march. everything will be good. >> reporter: there's a level of mistrust between police and community. one of the points i heard over and over was about the shooting of mr. carr, the 26-year-old outside the omni hotel. people don't believe he was shot by a civilian. they believe he was shot by a police officer even though there was an arrest in the case. how difficult is it as a police officer to communicate what you see as facts to the community when there's so much mistrust? >> i think the first things, you work on mistrust. if we work on the mistrust, all the other stuff will fall into place. b we may not be in a position to work with people in this case, but maybe we can work on trust for the next one. >> reporter: i notice that every time the protesters stop at a certain location, you guys mobilize the troops basically. are you expecting to do that again to try to get them to move away? they've been here for more time than they've spent in other locations. >> no, we're trying to remain

responsive to locations so if something goes sideways, we can respond quickly and deal with it. >> reporter: thank you very much. we'll keep watching the situation. there are crews and police officers roving around the protesters. you have seen some start to peel off, move in other directions. it seems that the crowd has downsized considerably from the park when we last talked to you in the past hour. we'll keep you update with the latest. >> thank you very much. boris and brian in charlotte. martin savidge in atlanta. they're in one spot. what's going on? take us there. >> reporter: yeah, they've gathered here at atlanta city detention center, city jail. there are several hundred focused on the steps here as you see. you look out on the crowd beyond us here.

and essentially they've occupied this space. it is somewhat of a showdown. authorities are blocking the main entrance. there's no way they'll allow protesters inside. the steps have become a focal point for the speakers talking about injustice in the system, talking about how the police shootings over the last week cannot be tolerated. in many ways, there are lots of different groups represented in this crowd, from black lives matter to various church organizations. and they intend to occupy this space. they say at least until midnight. there was only one scuffle match when a young man rushed the police at the entranceway. that was quickly quelled by the demonstrators themselves. this has been disciplined, well organized, vocal but peaceful. there's been no real altercation, and police have stayed away. they're obviously guarding the front entrance to the jail. otherwise, you haven't seen much of a presence.

even the intersections, the parade organizers that have stopped traffic and allowed the procession to move through. no arrests, no real major showdowns or struggles with law enforcement, although they are monitoring it closely. protesters will be here for at least another hour. don? >> we'll keep an eye and get you back as warranted. thank you very much. i want to discuss this. van jones is here, former official in the obama administration. picar sellers, former member of the house of representatives who supports hillary clinton, by the way. stacy washington, host of the radio program "stacy on the right." andre bower, former lieutenant governor of south carolina who is supporting donald trump. good to have you here. thank you very much for joining us. picari from south carolina, what are you hearing from people about the new cell phone video released by the family today? >> i can tell you it didn't do much but heighten the b--

heighten the distrust amongst police and the community. it's about justice and a trust that's been broken. one of the things i looked at in the video is ms. scott, she had the wherewithal and courage to film that video knowing that that incident with her husband surrounded by law enforcement officers could have led to something bad happening, and it led to his death. i think that's something that most african-americans feel like they may be incumbent to do. tonight everybody's chanting "release the tapes, no justice no peace." everybody's getting into a good trouble so far which i'm happy for and proud of. >> i want to get to van jones. let's talk about politics here. new polls in north carolina show that trump and clinton are neck and neck. clinton tweeted earlier saying that charlotte should release police video of mr. scott's shooting without delay, she said. we must ensure justice and teamwork bridge divide, a quote

-- and work to bridge divide, a quote from her. is she taking the right approach? >> i tell you, i think that she is speaking for a lot of people. obviously there are good reasons to keep the tape back if they are in the middle of an ongoing investigation. but i think more importantly, north carolina has really been a hotbed of challenges. the governor has been tough on voting rights, against voting rights essentially for african-americans. it's a real hotbed. it's going to be an important battleground state. and this i think heightens the tensions. one of the most important things i can say is that i am very, very proud of those young people tonight who are out there constructively engaging, exercising their constitutional rights, and speaking up for redress of their grievances. tat's in the constitution. nobody liekts -- nobody likes it when you see destructive activity. as much as people want to condemn things you don't want, you have to stand up and cheer

that these young people are taking to the streets, demanding redress of their grievances and in a powerful way. >> stacy, a question for you now. donald trump says that hillary clinton shares responsibility for the protests because she supports the narrative that police officers are racist. what do you think of that? >> i wouldn't say that she shares responsibility for any violence or anything of that nature. of course, we have to be careful what we say. i don't agree that police officers are inherently guilty or hunting down blacks or any of those things. what i think is happening here is we have a couple of officer-involved shootings. we don't know what's happened. investigations are ongoing. i'd like to see us maintain this level of order. if you're going to protest, make sure it's orderly. make sure it's lawful. and let's see what the investigations show. >> here is president barack obama at the opening of the new african-american history museum. listen. >> my hope is that black folks

watching the same images on television and then seeing the history represented in this museum can say to themselves the struggles we're going through today are connected to the past, and yet all that progress we've made tells me that i cannot and will not sink into despair because if we join hands and if we do things right, if we maintain our dignity -- >> didn't get to the end of that. but andre bower, what's your reaction? >> we're a good country, don, and we've got to have tough, difficult conversations with people that are going to be, you know, open-minded toings that might hurt their feelings a little bit and engage in a

discussion that for too long has been brush under the rug. people that want to enflame groups, that's not going to work either. clearly officers have made bad judgment, done things incorrectly. as a 16 member, a reserve officer, i realize how much training they go through. i appreciate what they do and how they put themselves in very dangerous situations that call for split-second decisionmaking on life or death. the law needs to take the course in this case and let the facts come out as they will. if law enforcement, the judicial department is saying they need to take the steps to go through before they release the tapes, i don't want to stain a jury or put an impression on people before they have the chance to do what they need to do. we are going to have to have difficult decisions that we quite frankly as a country haven't had. we've brushed them under the rug. politicians have said things to

get their supporters behinds them or to alienate or bring folks in. we really haven't had -- you need people like van jones that are fair and reasonable and can articulate a great message. that's where you'll have a progressive movement to solve these problems. >> you mentioned the politicians, let's get there. let's listen to some of the language donald trump used this week. >> our african-american communities are absolutely in the worst shape that they've ever been in before ever, ever, ever. it just seems that there's a lack of spirit between the white and the black. i mean, it's a terrible things that we're witnessing. i will stop the drugs from flowing into our country and poisoning our youth and many other people. and if you're not aware, drugs are a very, very big factor in what you're watching on television at night.

>> what's your response, about ca -- bakari? >> i agree with andre somewhat. but the conversations that are going to have to be had, with all due respect to van jones and even myself, they're not conversations that just need to be had with us. they'll have to be had with our coins, with the people who -- our cousins, with the people who work every day, people protesting and screaming. we can't choose who we have conversations with. to stacy's point talking about the rioting and protesting, if you condemn the rioting and protesting, you have to condemn the conditions that led to it. we're not just talking about charlotte. i want the tapes released tonight in charlotte. i hope they come out tonight. even more than that, my heart aches because it's not just charlotte. it's casteel, tamir rice, walter scott -- the names go on and on and on.

for many of us this isn't an isolated incident of charlotte. this is a pain that's felt throughout our community because we're tired of seeing black bodies in street. >> let's have stacy responds. on top of that as an african-american who is conservative, how do any of the remarks that you hear from donald trump and more, how does it help reaching out to the black community? does it? >> i don't think anything he said was false. i'm not so sure about the drug involvement and the protests. i don't think the protesters are on drugs. i think we're talking about a conversation he started when he went to the black church in detroit. he's been opening up the dialogue with himself, his campaign, and the black community which has traditionally supported democrats more than republicans for decades now. he's saying give something else a chance . the democrats have controlled america for 50, 60, 100 years. he's asking for republican policies in the republican party platform to apply to the black community which some is heavily

concentrated in inner cities. >> okay. >> that's an opportunity. that's what he's offering. >> van jones? >> well, look, i am somebody who said at the very beginning of this campaign back in the primary season that the republicans did have a shot at the black community's vote because, frankly, it's unnatural to have one group with 90, 92, 95% of anything. i think that donald trump has made a mockery of those efforts. first of all, when you assume that all african-americans are poor, you're automatically making a stereotypical statement. and you don't talk to poor people the way he's talking to poor black people. i could as easily say you've had poor white folks voting for republicans for generations and they've not made progress. i could talk about their living conditions, them living in trailers and stereotypes and say vote for me. i think those people would be highly offended that that's the way i was coming at them.

i think people have been highly offended at the way that trump has come at us. i think this is a very important moment. listen, the african-american community is tired of funerals. we're crushed now in some of our communities between street violence and unlawful police violence. unfortunately, too many politicians just want to score points on this funeral or that funeral. and we're not working together to get the overall number of funerals down. >> okay. >> to me, i don't feel that donald trump has been helpful in getting us to that place. >> we've got a lot of territory to cover and a lot of time this evening. we'll be on until at least 1:00 a.m. with this broadcast. and cnn is on live 24 hours a day. thank you, panel. nor -- more to discuss. breaking news, a fourth night of protests in charlotte, north carolina. and a protest in atlanta. we'll be right back. i married a did the ancestrydna to find out i'm only 16% italian. so i went onto ancestry,

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back to breaking news in charlotte and atlanta following the fatal police shooting of keith lamont scott. these are protests happening there. here to discuss, cnn analyst mark o'meara and former police officer, david clinger, author of "into the kill zone."

welcome back to the panel. how do you think the mayor of the charlotte has been handling this case, mark o'meara? >> well, i think she's trying to be transparent and sensitive to the enormity of the social issues being addressed unfortunately now in her city, like many, many others. i must say i don't like that there was a bit of a split between her and the police chief because i think if nothing else there needs to be a concerted front, not a made-up story. i think there needs to be a concerted front in the fact that this investigation needs to be continued in a way that maintains the integrity of it felt -- of it. overall, difficult situation. this like many other cities is the focus point, not only of the nation but the world, as to how we're going to react to the undeniable racial biases and issues we still have in our criminal justice system. >> this is about police, david, but it's also about the leadership of the city and somewhat of the state. is there anything that you see that could have been done differently here or could be being done differently?

>> i think one thing would have been to have a tighter messaging. and i know that's a political term. what i mean by that is not put out little bits of information. it doesn't make sense to me that certain information has been leaked from the investigation about the handgun that was found. doesn't make sense to me that the mayor would make some comment about what she saw on the video. the chief makes a comment, so on and so forth i think everything should have been kept in the house until a decision was made to release the videos after all investigative issues that we've been talking about this evening and prior have been taken care of. i would have liked to have seen that. >> uh-huh. let's talk about, mark, you know, as we talk about these issues, race always plays a big role as you know, from the george zimmerman trial and things we've covered. there have been so many that we've covered, sadly. we're right in the middle of the presidential season. this presidential debate between hillary clinton and donald trump coming up, do you expect this

shooting as well as others like this one, maybe tulsa, to be the topic of discussion there, and should it be? >> well, unfortunately, it's going to be because candidates love playing with political footballs. they like trying to make headway on their own campaigns by spreading some needle as to how to do it. that's great, but enough politics. we have a crisis in america. it's simple. we no longer need to deny it because of the past four years watching it on video almost once a week. and this is what it is. we have a crisis in thrust and respect between the african-american community and police. and in that equation, the police are the professionals. and they're going to have to be the ones who take the first step, take the second step if necessary, and the third. we need to train our officers better. we need to pay them better. we need to get rid of cowboy cops so that the people that they serve -- don't forget, cops

only exist because we break the law. cops are there to protect us from each other. in that role, a delicate and very necessary role, we have to train them better, pay them better. they need to earn our respect because this is going a bad way when we have less and less trust for -- and respect for officers and officers that have less trust and respect for the black community. it has to stop. >> david, it's been said, and i've heard on this broadcast at least, that it's the -- the political candidates may be using it to sort of make headway with their base. but these issues are usually handled on the local level. but it has also been said that there needs to be some uniform standard across the country for all police departments that need to meet one single standard. what do you make of that? and can that happen from a presidential candidate? >> yes and no. what i mean by that is this -- there are already national

standards about a lot of things, and so i think that people think that the cops can just run willy-nilly in one jurisdiction and do it however they want, and another jurisdiction do it however they want. the constitution sets baselines in terms of search and seizure and so on, and the police have to work within that rubric. i do not like, however, the notion of having some sort of overarching federal police power. one of the reasons why our country has succeeded so long for two-plus centuries is because we do not have a federal police. we do not have the heavy hand of washington. what i'm seeing more and more and more is more and more encroachment from washington on local police. one of the problems is it takes away flexibility. one of the things that's worked in my lifetime in law enforcement is movements toward letting the citizenry work nature closely with the police -- more closely with police on the local level, what community policing has been about the past

20, 30 years, depending who you talk to. when the federal government gets involved, they know how to handle it from washington, d.c. you talk to the folks in the fbi, you look at their history of officer-involved shootings, they've never had a bad shooting. what sense does that make? the federal government wants to hold local police more accountable, but they don't even hold themselves accountable. i have huge members with trying to move toward any federalized policing. >> i've got to go. thank you, i appreciate it. we'll continue on with our breaking news. protests happening in two major cities in the united states, in charlotte and atlanta. redid you say 97?97!

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breaking news. protesters in charlotte tonight in the wake of the release of a cell phone video of keith scott's wife showing his fatal shooting by police. i want to bring in brian todd now. brian is live there at the site of the protests. what's going on? >> reporter: don, a fascinating dynamic here in front of the charlotte police station. groups of activists have been holding kinds of a de facto debate in front of the station. they were doing it on the street. now there are people speaking from the elevated position here, debating the best way to bring about change in the city and to express their views about what's happened here. some believe you've got to do it

through continued protesting and marches on the streets. some believe you do it through economic boycotts. one of the activist leaders told us the central theme of this and what they're trying to do is express outrage at the fact that this police department and the state bureau of investigation have not released the dash cam and body cam videos. they believe a lot of this controversy would dissipate if they did that. so they're holding kind of a debate on the street over the best way to kind of effect that message. and they've been here at the police station now for several minutes. probably at least close to an hour. when they're going to keep on the move or not as we approach the curfew, we're not sure. we're going to see about that. i think a street debate is still ongoing down there. you can kind of see it over my left shoulder. again, people get in the middle there and debate with each other about the best way to do it. don? >> brian todd, we'll keep a close eye. brian todd reporting from charlotte. here to discuss this is cnn legal analyst laura coates, a former federal prosecutor.

and ariva mouartin, civil right activist. you see democracy at work. what do you think of the mock debate? >> i love the productive discussions that people are having. that's part of what this is about in terms of driving to reconcile how we can rebuild the trust. really from a legal standpoint, the role has to also be on the prosecution and legislators to say, listen, how can we effectively enable prosecutors to be able to be independent, to be objective, and to prosecute appropriate crimes. and a step-by-step plan to take place beginning with each fact of each case. >> this video from -- from keith scott's wife, you hear and you see the lead up to the shooting and hear the shots fired. what stuck out to you, ariva? >> don't shoot him -- >> the first thing that really concerned me was the introduction of this information about a traumatic brain injury.

we've not heard anyone talking about the mental capacity or the mental health or neurological issues that mr. scott may have had at the time that the shooting occurred. and you can clearly hear his wife saying that he has a traumatic brain injury, and that he had just taken medicine. raises the question about if he even understood what was happening. i think the police chief himself said that when he watched the police video, mr. scott also seemed dazed or confused. so we've seen a lot of cases where police are dealing with someone that just doesn't understand their commands. yet, there's this expectation that they respond so quickly before, you know -- if they don't respond almost immediately, it escalates into the type of shooting that we saw in this case. >> you can hear officers repeatedly asking for scott to drop the gun. listen -- >> drop the gun!

drop the gun! >> don't shoot him. don't shoot him. he didn't do anything. >> drop the gun! drop the gun! >> he doesn't have a gun. he has a tbi. he's not going to do anything to you guys. he just took his medicine. >> drop the gun! >> officers are asking him to drop the gun at least ten times. even if this family is right and he didn't have a gun, doesn't it seem like police were convinced that he had something, that he had one? >> it does seem like that. and it seems to support the police chief's finding or statement that they did. and remember, everyone keeps talking about traumatic brain injury. what she says is tbi. it's unknown and unclear at this time when the officers knew what that acronym stood for or when they believed that was an object that he was holding. her statement is he doesn't have a gun, he has a tbi. he's not going to hurt you. he just took his medicine. now in that short span of time, the officers are expected to be able to reconcile and interpret

that. we don't know if they actually heard all of that statement. what we have here is the inconclusive video that has a lot of gaps to be filled. that's why the prosecutor, you have to hear from eyewitnesses and officers about what they believed and interpreted. >> and he apparently got that traumatic brain injury, according to the attorney in 2015 in a motorcycle accident, october, november i'm told. go ahead. >> i'm a lawyer, and i understand where she's coming from as a former prosecutor. i think from a public perspective and a lay person looking at this videotape and so many of these videotapes, we can't help but ask the question, how come these situations aren't handled differently, how come there's not more efforts to de-escalate situations? you have a man who was not committing a crime. he has an interaction with the police officers that according to this videotape last less than a minute or two. and he ends up dead. that narrative keeps being

played out over and over again. and we can go fact, fact, fact, case by case. perhaps it is going to be ultimately a justified shooting. but if we don't change the way policing occurs in this country with respect to african-american men, if you can have a one-minute encounter with the police when you're not committing a crime and you end up dead, we're never going to resolve these deeply, deeply ingrained racial issues that are tearing apart this country and causing african-americans to feel as if they are hauntsed on a daily -- haunted on a daily basis. >> i hear you, and i agree. as you well know, one of the reasons that officers are believed to be emboldened and empowered by their actions and being reckless is because of the idea that we're only going to judge officers by what other reasonable officers agree to be the appropriate use of force. what has to be the inquiry for a prosecutor looking at the cases is, one, what was the level of force that should have been used

in this case? was there provocation? the only way to change or alter the standard and deference shown that will lead it a systemic change they're talking about is if we have cases where the prosecutor can effectively and appropriately prosecute. and that requires them to discover was there provocation, was use of force necessary, and was the -- did the officers act appropriately? >> i'm glad you bring that up. can i say one thing, don? >> yes. >> i'm glad you bring that gardner v. tennessee case up. there was a recent massachusetts supreme court case that says maybe it's time to look at the actions of the police through the lenses of the civilian and not solely through the lenses of the police officers. >> i completely agree. if that has to change, you know -- i think we're saying the same thing. i think it's a matter of how the approach is being taken and what role the prosecutor in this case has taken. you know the prosecutor represents the jurisdiction, and they have to make changes for

that. they also have to begin with the facts of the case. and the sociological aspect of it is very important for the court of public opinion. a prosecutor's got to be able to win in a court of law. >> not if this comes up in the debate or how do they respond if it comes up? thank you very much.

more breaking news this evening. this out of washington state. there have been four people shot to death at the cascade mall in burlington. again, four people shot to death at the cascade mall in burlington in washington, washington state. it happened about 7:00 p.m. local time. police say the shooter or shooters are on the loose tonight. witnesses describe the scene of chaos and confusion as they were evacuated by police. again, we'll keep an eye on this breaking news as we get more information. four people dead at a mall in washington state, burlington, washington. again, we'll keep an eye on that. i want to get back to our other breaking news.

the fourth night of protests in charlotte over the fatal police shooting of keith lamont scott. and three days before hillary clinton and donald trump face off in the presidential debate. and now to alan dershowitz, author, and cnn political commentator bob beck, author of "i should be dead." alan, here's the book. you're going to get me in trouble someday because people are going to say something else. i'm sure it's a fascinating read. douglas, let's talk about monday's debate. this will be the first time that hillary clinton and donald trump go head to head. this is happening when tepnsion are high in charlotte and around the country. talk about the significance of monday night because a lot of people are going to be watching, and there's a lot at stake. >> it is. it will be super bowl-like

ratings. i think ever's at stake. getting momentum out of this first one for donald trump is a must. he needs credibility. i think he hasa credibility gap. people want to see if donald trump can really talk about policy issues, talk about not releasing his taxes to rest. hillary clinton has had the albatross of the e-mail scandal around her and seeming to not have been her best, to have been sick of late. there's already psyching out going on. i think the debate is -- we can't exaggerate how important it's going to be for swing voters. the country's in a dead heat. north carolina where we're watching now, charlotte, a dead heat in the state between the two. any little advantage you can get on monday, it's going to be historic and meaningful. >> president obama speaking to abc had advice for hillary clinton. listen. >> be yourself and explain who motivates you. i will tell you, i've gotten to

know hillary and seen her work, and seen her in tough times and in good times. she's in this for the right reasons. i think there's a reason we haven't had a woman president before so she's having to break down barriers. >> saying she hasn't made her case in a forceful enough way to convince people to vote for her, some people to vote for her. people she needs to get enthused back the election. >> we talk about the case, we're talking about who is she. who is she. >> exactly. >> we were talking about this before we came on. look, this is a woman who for 30 years has been on the defensive in everything she's done. from the time she was an activist lawyer to the time she -- this time running for president. in the course of that, she's built up a shield. and it's very difficult to break through that. they say she doesn't have much personality. i've talked to her, and she's got a good personality. the problem is she's frightened to get too far out.

>> she's been -- they're preparing differently. she's been off the campaign trail for much of the week now. donald trump has spent the week out on the road. what do they each need to do on monday night? >> well, he needs to show that he knows about how to govern. the hard questions for him are going to be factual. he's going to try to broadly talk about making america great. and if the commentators are good, they're going to press him on things he may not know about, and he's not preparing enough for the specifics where she knows if anything too much. and she has to present a broad picture. she has to make herself presidential. in the broad sense of the term. everybody knows she knows everything about everything. nobody knows more about policy than she does. and probably nobody knows less about the specifics of policy than he does. and the question is, which one of those will show the strengths and weaknesses? >> we'll be back on the other side of the break. let's talk about -- there are moments that can make or break you at a debate.

we'll discuss what they should avoid coming up.

back now our breaking news. these are live pictures of charlotte. you see protesters still out on

the street. we are just a little under eight minutes away from a curfew. we're keeping a close eye on it. as we do that, we'll continue to talk politics. at the top of the hour, we'll bring you there live to show you what's happening. we have the presidential debate on monday. douglas brinkley, alan dershowitz, and bob beckle, my guests. we want to talk about what she or he need to do to avoid this sort of dukakis moment. let's play it and then discuss. >> governor, if kitty dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer? >> no, i don't, bernard. i think you know that i've opposed the death penalty during all of my life. i don't see any evidence that it's a deterrent. and i think there are better and more effective ways to deal with violent crime. we've done so in my own state. it's one of the reasons why we

have had the biggest drop in crime of any street state in america, why we have the lowest murder rate of any industrial state in america. >> the voters didn't go for that. a serious question, but emotion does matter. what didn't they like? >> it played into the narrative that he was an automoton, that he was a policy wonk, that he had no heart, no feeling. if he had said, i would strangle the man with my bare hands if i could get my hands on him -- that's why i shouldn't be making this decision because i feel so emotional about it. he had to become live and real. and he didn't. the key to both of these people on monday is they can't play into the negative narratives. they have to break the narratives. >> yeah. and somewhat we're talking about style here, douglas. and maybe hillary clinton is the one who has to come off as, you know, not so controlled and more emotional and relaxed. am i wrong with that?

>> absolutely right. she has to become authentic. we have to feel like we like her and know her. more importantly she seems to have a problem with showing people she's having fun. the trump campaign's been able to have good times. she's always seeming to be in a box. the more relaxed she can be, the more she can do like she did with bernie sanders, have some light moments back and forth, and not seem to get angry or bitter at trump no matter what he says. i think she'll be best served playing it that way. >> he has to do somewhat the opposite. he has to come off as controlled. let me go on, you said it's not just that moment, there was a mondale moment, nixon moment, ronald reagan moment from which may win them or some think won them the debate. does it really matter that much? >> one thing we've got to be careful of, a small percentage of us follow this every day. remember, on monday night, the

vast majority of that audience being introduced to these people. i mean, some for the first time. her personality problems, for example, are things that are not ingrained, they don't like her in the sense this they see her, see too much of her. and yet, you can deal with that somewhat. if i were trump, i'd do policy for an hour. >> just do policy? >> just do policy. >> do debates change that much? i've heard from all of our political folks here, our contributors this is the most important moment of the election. >> i've heard that. i've been through these things and hear that every four years. debates on balance, you look at the statistics, they don't change. they're a bump liar they're in conventions -- bump like they're in conventions. you'll get a bump after a debate, but it will go away. >> douglas? >> they can also destroy you. in you go to 1976, jimmy carter could have been on the ropes, but gerald ford -- you know, carter won that debate when gerald ford misspoke about

eastern europe not being under soviet domination. and it just devastated ford. so it can be a turning point. i think with trump he's got to deal with the not releasing of his taxes. he miff a trick up his -- he might have a trick up his sleeve. he might have the audit and say i have the letter. something to control the immediate sound bite. just important, people using twitter while's going on. people on both sides will be trying to get their message off in realtime at the debate. i think this makes this different from four years ago. >> alan dershowitz, the most important things you would tell hillary clinton and donald trump? >> i would tell donald trump to avoid the gerald ford mistake. don't not know where aleppo is, things that we think probably you don't know, but maybe you can learn them between now and

then. i don't think he's properly preparing for the debate. i think he's over confident. i think he thinks he can win on style and personality. i don't think he's preparing properly. hillary, i think she has to forget the facts and details and present herself and her overall policy and show why she would be better for america than her opponent. >> to come off as human. >> she could challenge donald trump by saying, man up, donald. >> great statement. >> i appreciate it. coming up, more on breaking news. a fourth night of protests in charlotte tonight. and be here with us at a special time sunday, sunday at 11:00, as we preview the first presidential debate on monday.