your own reality, but that is not the fact. >> i will release my tax returns when she releases her 33,000 e-mails that have been deleted. >> i call it trumped-up trickle-down because that's exactly what it would be. >> hillary has experience, but it's bad experience. >> at least i have a plan to fight isis. >> no, no. you're telling the enemy everything you want to do. >> no, we're not. >> i have a winning temperament. i know how to win. >> woo! okay. join the debate by saying more crazy things. >> this is "new day" with chris cuomo and alisyn camerota. >> good morning, everyone. welcome to your "new day." the highly anticipated showdown between hillary clinton and donald trump was must-see tv. clinton accusing trump of racist behavior, while trump tried to pain the country's problems on clinton. >> boy, oh, boy. there's only one first. this was the first time we saw

them toe to toe. so who won? we have a new cnn post-debate poll that shows it was a big night for clinton. now, how is this debate going to change the race? both candidates get back out on the frail. we ha trial. we have it all cover. here's our phil mattingly. >> sharp attacks coming from both candidates last night. one thing is for sure. they had their message they wanted to get across. hillary clinton, prepared, ready for the white house. donald trump, the change agent, breaker of the status quo. that doesn't mean they weren't pulling punches. they were certainly throwing some hay makers. >> i have a feeling by the end of this evening i'm going to be blamed for everything that's ever happened. >> why not. >> yeah, why not. >> reporter: the highly anticipated duel between hillary clinton and donald trump began with an exchanging of pleasantries. >> secretary clinton, yes? is that okay? good. i want you to be very happy.

>> reporter: but it didn't take long for the gloves to come off. >> the kind of plan donald has put forth would be trickle-down economics all over again. i call it trumped-up trickle-down. >> nafta is the worst trade deal maybe ever signed. now you want to approve trans-pacific partnership. >> reporter: trump repeatedly casting clinton as a typical politician while attempting to portray himself as a change agent. >> you've been doing this for 30 years. why are you just thinking about these solutions right now? >> reporter: clinton putting trump on the defensive for much of the debate, baiting gop nominee on his business record. >> donald was one of the people who rooted for the housing crisis. he said back in 2006, gee, i hope it does collapse because then i can go in and buy some and make some money. well, it did collapse. >> that's called business, by the way. >> 9 million people lost their jobs. >> reporter: challenging him on his refusal to release his tax

returns. >> i will release my tax returns against my lawyer's wishes when she releases her 33,000 e-mails that have been deleted. >> maybe he doesn't want the american people, all of you watching tonight, to know that he's paid nothing in federal taxes. >> that makes me smart. >> he's paid zero. that means zero for troops, zero for vets, zero for schools or health. >> reporter: trump pouncing on clinton about her use of private e-mail but not dwelling on it. >> i made a mistake using a private e-mail. >> that's for sure. >> and if i had to do it over again, i would obviously do it differently. >> that was more than a mistake. that was done purposely. >> reporter: and insisting she can't be trusted. >> i have much better judgment than she does. there's no question about that. i also have a much better temperament than she has. >> woo. okay. >> reporter: trump on the defensive over years of false claims that president obama wasn't born in the u.s.

>> i think i did a great job and a great service not only for the country but even for the president in getting him to produce his birth certificate. >> reporter: clinton hitting trump hard, dubbing his crusade racist. >> so he tried to put the whole racist birther lie to bed. but it can't be dismissed that easily. so he has a long record of engaging in racist behavior, and the birther lie was a very hurtful one. >> reporter: debate moderator lester holt fact checking in realtime, trump insisting he did not support the iraq war despite proof that he did. >> i did not support the war in iraq. >> 2002 -- >> that is a mainstream media nonsense put out by her. >> the record shows otherwise. >> the record shows that i'm right. >> reporter: the fiery debate ending on a personal attack of clinton. >> she doesn't have the look. she doesn't have the stamina.

i said she doesn't have the stamina. and i don't believe she does have the stamina. to be president of the this country, you need tremendous stamina. >> as soon as he travels to 112 countries and negotiates a peace deal, a cease-fire, a release of dissidents, an opening of new opportunities in nations around the world, or even spends 11 hours testifying in front of a congressional committee, he can talk to me about stamina. >> hillary has experience, but it's bad experience. >> reporter: but the veteran debater fought back at trump's critiques. >> i think donald just criticized me for preparing for this debate, and yes, i did. and you know what else i prepared for? i prepared to be president, and i think that's a good thing. >> reporter: and guys, there's no question, donald trump had

strong moments in last night's debate, but for the most part, he was on defense the entire time. a good reason why, areas like the truft attack in benghazi, the clinton foundation, key components, immigration, the border wall, key components of donald trump's stump speech, of his candidacy on the whole, were not even mentioned last night. that's an issue that donald trump could have brought up on the attack, but he chose not to. that's something i think you can expect will change in the two debates ahead. as for today, candidates obviously back on the trail. hillary clinton in north carolina. donald trump in florida. swing states, two states that both candidates desperately need and want to win on november 8th. alisyn? >> phil, thanks for all that. let's see how regular viewers felt. we have our cnn/orc post-debate poll. it shows it was a decisive win for hillary clinton. 62% say clinton was the big winner. 27% thought trump won the night. the poll sample does skew slightly in favor of democrats because more democrats responded than republicans.

even a majority of independents watching deemed clinton the winner. >> joining us now is the interim chair of the democratic national committee, donna brazile. she had a front-row seat at last night's debate. you were walking around last night saying you were happy not just because you thought this debate showed trump at his worst, but you think the american people got to see hillary clinton at her best. how so? >> absolutely. look, chris, elections are about the future. she was able to look into the camera and talk to the american people about the future of the country, job growth, productivity, and she was able, i believe, to not just respond to some of donald trump's trumped-up charges, but when donald trump had an opportunity to put his business experience before the american people, he had no answer when she said people are suing you, waitresses, plumbers, small business people like my daddy. i thought hillary clinton was prepared, donald trump was incoherent. also, he interrupted her 25 times, because i want to get it

right, in the first 26 minutes. that shows you that donald trump did not come to play. he came to insult, and he couldn't. i think advantage clinton. >> he says he's the whiner in chief, that america's angry, it is anxious, there are problems because of the last eight years, and he'll come in to fix them. specifically to hillary clinton, he went after her about the e-mails. let's play that exchange. >> i made a mistake using a private e-mail. >> that's for sure. >> and if i had to do it over again, i would obviously do it differently. >> that was not a mistake. that was done purposely. when you have your staff taking the fifth amendment, taking the fifth so they're not prosecuted, when you have the man that set up the illegal server taking the fifth, i think it's disgraceful. and believe me, this country really thinks it's disgraceful also. as far as my tax returns, you don't learn that much from tax

returns. that i can tell you. >> now, some argued, why did he shift off that? >> why did he pivot? because he wanted to pivot away from the fact that she said you're not paying taxes, donald. if you show me your tax returns, show the american people, we will learn that you haven't given much to the government. you haven't paid -- you haven't given anything to charitable organizations. i thought that was a key moment for hillary clinton to once again tell donald trump, you're trying to be someone that you're not. he didn't have a good response to that. >> do you think that the e-mail thing is a scarlet letter, that that there's nothing she can say, it will always be there, and it may be the deciding factor for some voters? >> look, this was a mistake. she's apologized for it. the fbi investigated her. she was cleared in terms of they did not bring any charges. i think that's -- the american people are thinking about this is about them, this is about their future, this is about education. this is about the future of the

country, the safety and security of the american people. again, i thought she was prepared. she came there ready to talk about the future, not to just sit there and insult and whatever donald trump called that whining he was doing. >> two quick things. one is to button something up, then i want to talk about something very big that happened last night. the quick thing, russian e-mail hackers. trump is open ended. >> call me, donald trump. don't tweet. call me, boo. >> do you think it was russia? you have proof? >> yes. >> how so? >> because we have brought in the best cybersecurity team in this country, and they have seen this. they know the markers. they've seen it in realtime. sean henry, who's the president of crowd strike, he was a former cybersecurity expert at the fbi. we have good sources that have told us it is foreign and it's possibly russian. >> possibly or probably? >> probably, but i'm not the security expert, but yes, the

dnc was a victim of a cybersecurity, what i call intrusion, and guess what. they're still trying to hurt all of us, not just the dnc, but the entire country by basically trying to dismantle all of our political operations in this country. >> now, there was a big moment last night. i want to play it. it was about president obama and the birther sham that went on. it was a big opportunity for donald trump. let's see what he made of it. >> patty doyle was on wolf blitzer saying that this happened. blumenthal sent a reporter to kenya to find out about it. they were pressing very hard. she failed to get the birth certificate. when i got involved, i didn't fail. i got him to give the birth certificate. so i'm satisfied with it. >> we're talking about racial healing in this segment. what do you say to americans -- >> well, i say nothing because i

was able to get him to produce it. he should have produced it a long time before. i say nothing. i think i did a great job and a great service not only for the country but even for the president in getting him to produce his birth certificate. >> now, this was a wow moment because the expectation was that when the birther sham comes up, that donald trump would own that it was wrong and reach out because he keeps saying he wants to be a uniter and heal the divisions. how did it impact you to hear him say, i say nothing, to people who are offended by it? >> i spent the weekend with my family at the opening and dedication of the new museum of african-american history and culture. i could tell you donald trump should take a walk through that museum and see what it means to have to produce papers. my ancestors could not get papers because they were brought here as slaves. it took centuries before we could finally get papers to bring this up over and over again, and to smear the first

black president of the united states, donald trump should be ashamed of himself, and he should apologize. i get emotional. i got a birth certificate. my parents had a birth certificate. my grandparents did not. my great grandparents did not. going back through that reminded me of the shame and dehumanization of black people. he owes us an apology. i know it's not forthcoming, so i know i'm speaking into the wild darkness of donald trump, but i think he should be ashamed of himself to bring that up and to say -- and this is what he said. i'm the one who got him to produce the birth certificate. it's amazing. >> you don't think he's the one that got him to produce the birth certificate? >> i think it's a shame we put the president of the united states through this. it's just awful. and every time we talk about it, it's the wound that won't heal. this is what donald trump should understand. it's the wound that will never heal as long as people go out there and exploit what i call

real parable pain and animus in this country. >> the question is how does he adjust, how does she adjust for the next debate? he's on tv this morning saying his microphone was messed up last night. >> i was sitting right in front of him. maybe he should learn how to talk in the microphone. i was sitting right there. i watched him. donald trump was, you know -- i saw that. he was rocking it. he was not speaking to the american people. that's why i think his microphone didn't work. >> there was an odd moment at the end that may be a suggestion for the next debate. he said, i'm very happy with myself, i was going to say something that was really tough on hillary clinton and her whole family, but i didn't because i have respect for chelsea. the obvious nod is it's going to be bill's infidelities. what do you think about that, if it comes up as a state of play? >> i think it will backfire. i think, again, that's the way -- donald trump has bullied his way on to the political stage. i think that was donald trump's way of saying, i have something on you, and if you attack me, i'm going to attack you.

first of all, i thought he was disrespectful to lester holt. he was disrespectful to hillary clinton. he kept interrupting. every time he interrupted, he had nothing to say. wrong, wrong. i watched him. i thought this was childish. >> donna brazile, thank you. >> you miss me? >> i misyou so much it's hard to conduct the interview. >> but you see, i'm with her. >> now you're on with me. >> high five. >> good to see you. >> great to see both of you. what does team trump think about how they did last night? trump's campaign manager kellyanne conway is going to join us next. "hey! you get that memo too?"

"it's just an alert from credit karma. they help me with this whole--being an adult thing." "credit karma seriously helped you feel like an adult?" "yeah." "free credit monitoring?" "i feel like it's working all ready." "credit karma. give yourself some credit."

well, i have much better judgment than she does. there's no question about that. i also have a much better temperament than she has, you know. i think my strongest asset, maybe by far, is my temperament. i have a winning temperament. i know how to win. >> donald trump and hillary clinton facing off in a tense debate last night. how does the trump campaign feel about his performance? let's ask. we have trump campaign manager kellyanne conway joining us now. great to see you. i know you've had a long night

with little sleep. >> oh, who hasn't. >> of course, everybody. what did you think were mr. trump's best and worst moment of last night? >> well, the best moments for mr. trump clearly were when he was taking on hillary clinton's record on trade and job creation, particularly in the first parts of the debate. he took her on full square on nafta and tpp and also the fact that she's flip-flop on tpp. she referred to it as the gold standard, then she's against it, defies president obama on it. so i think that's important because why. according to cnn polling and other polls, jobs and the economy is the number one issue. another big issue is terrorism. on that one, too, he put secretary clinton on the hook and said, look, you guys left a vacuum by the way you got out of iraq. that vacuum allowed the birth and growth of isis to fester. i thought those were very strong moments. >> was there a moment you wish he had done differently? >> what i would love for him to focus on is that barack obama said it best in 2008.

he said, hillary clinton will say anything to get elected. we saw that on full display last night. i was glad that he was polite and a gentleman to her, particularly at the end when he pulled the biggest punch of all -- >> meaning he did not play what he said he wanted to and i guess bring up her husband's sexual past. >> and he certainly was prepared to. >> and he sounded ambivalent about that. he sounded as though he wanted to, so why didn't he go there? >> it's a split-second spontaneous decision, alisyn. he certainly could have. it was probably on the minds of millions of voters at home. saying, wow, she's going to challenge you on a comment you made here or there about a woman, then goodness, why can't you challenge her on her husband's personal pick dill lows. he decided no the to and explained to america why that was. he said, i was prepared to have a rough talking about that, but i see your husband here and your daughter, and i'm not going to do what you're doing. and hundred of millions of dollars in negative advertising

is not nice. i think that exchange will grow in importance. >> let me play for you a moment that many pundits felt he didn't answer adequately or well. this was about -- lester holt asked him about the birther conspiracy. let's watch that moment. >> we're talking about racial healing in this segment. what do you say to americans -- >> well, it was very -- i say nothing. i say nothing because i was able to get him to produce it. he should have produced it a long time before. i say nothing. >> so he says, i say nothing to the people who were offended, to the voters, to the viewers. was that the right response? >> i think if you play the portion of that before, when the question first arose, alisyn, what he's saying are the three things he said in that press conference 11 days ago, which is where this started. he got him to produce a birth certificate. he believes he was born in this country. now he's going to move on. he said that very clearly in the clip that wasn't there. i'm going to move on to creating jobs, move on to defeating isis, move on to talking about the disasters of obamacare, education fixes, et cetera. that's what americans are saying.

we expected that question last night. and he was prepared for that are question. i just would have liked to have heard more about benghazi or e-mails or the clinton foundation since these are clearly in the news. one of our guests last night was mark geist, not mark cuban, who's a benghazi hero and survivor. you know, he was within several feet or yards of them. i think it's a good reminder to be americans of what her record is on that particular issue. >> was there -- since you were prepared for the birther question and you knew that would come up, was there any talk in the week leading up to this debate of getting mr. trump to apologize for that? >> well, i won't reveal internal debate preparation, but -- >> would you have liked to have seen him apologize and truly put it to bed? >> you know, apologies are so personal. what he has said in the past, very recent past, is if he's offended anyone, that reregrets that, particularly if it's caused personal pain. i think apologies should be received by people who feel that regret is meant to be felt by

people who feel like they have been caused personal pain. so he put that out there for those who feel like they have been aggrieved. >> but not with the birther issue. we just heard donna brazile here, who was emotional talking about it. for her, her family, her grandparents didn't have -- weren't able to have a birth certificate. so it does offend them and hurt them in a different way. has he considered apologizing to those people? >> you're asking me questions about the way he feels. as his campaign manager, i can tell you that i appreciated the fact that he took hillary clinton on, on super predators, a very hurtful term she used in the 1990s and elsewhere to describe african-american youth. >> but she did apologize for that. >> she apologized for using the word. she also apologized for setting up an e-mail server, but we don't know where the 33,000 e-mails are. i know she's not fond of the second amendment, but she's fond of the fifth amendment. she's got five people taking the

fifth just last week. this is a current burning issue. i think last night people will look at these two candidates and say, was my mind changed at all about who's the change maker, who's the disrupter, who's created jobs for a living versus somebody who just talks about it. her policies are very potentially harmful to this country. the regulations, the higher taxes, the lack of energy independence. there was none of that last night. i don't think anybody said, will my job be safer, will i get a better paying one under hillary clinton. >> speaking of retuburning issu let's talk about climate change. it's hard to know where mr. trump stands on it. let me play that exchange. >> take clean energy. some country is going to be the clean energy super power of the 21st century. donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the chinese. i think it's real. >> i did not -- i do not say that. >> the science is real, and i

think it's important that -- >> so does he think that climate change is a hoax or not a hoax? >> i think that's based on a tweet. i just love that, that whole man, whether he's giving a, yeah, i guess so, answer to howard stern about invading iraq as a private citizen on an entertainment radio show, or through a tweet, we're supposed to understand his policies. -pae senate. >> but on climate change, he's the one who sends out the tweets. he sends out what his thinking is on these policies. he's the one using that. the concept of global warming was created by and for the chinese in order to make u.s. manufacturing noncompetitive. these are his thoughts. snowing in texas and louisiana, record-setting freezing temperatures throughout the country and beyond, global warming is an expensive hoax. does he believe that global warming is a hoax? >> he believes that global warming isn't actually occurring. >> naturally? >> that climate change is naturally occurring.

there are shifts naturally oc r occurring. >> he doesn't believe it's man made. >> correct. >> he believes the idea it's man made is a hoax. >> no, i didn't say that. >> i mean, he said it. i'm repeating his tweet. he believes that part is a hoax. >> he believes climate change is naturally occurring. we don't know what hillary clinton believes because nobody ever asks her. >> she talked about it last night. she does not believe it's a hoax. >> she gave us scripted responses about somebody's going to be the clean energy super power. look, i can't blame her. she obviously was overprepared and wanted to make sure we heard every single scripted moment, including the snarky ones that she had prepared to stay. i don't think people looking at the split screen last night see somebody who projected confidence and a break with the past. if you're part of the 70% of americans who say, i want this country to head in a different direction, there's no way that you can say with a straight face i want hillary clinton, who represents 25 years of the same. >> what would you tell him to tweak for next time, for the next debate? >> i would tell him to take heed

of what then-senator barack obama said in 2008, which is hillary clinton will say anything to get elected and to realize, have that in his head, to realize that she'll say things that aren't particularly polite and aren't necessarily true and to not let her off the hook with those. but i think the more she talks is not necessarily good for her because she sounds very lawyerly, very lengthy, shifting and everything. >> speaking of talking, was there anything wrong with his microphone last night? >> i heard that from people who were in the audience. i was backstage. it seemed fine on tv, but he did seem to feel like it was -- >> yeah, he said he thinks he had a faulty microphone. although, people on tv could hear him. >> i guess when he was there, he said it. then i also heard from people in the audience immediately their reaction was when we were backstage that was there something wrong with your microphone. >> in the hall they couldn't hear him as well, was the point. is that what you're saying? >> that's what a few people said, yeah. >> kellyanne, thanks so much for

being on "new day." coming up, we'll hear from the clinton campaign manager as well as trump's running make, governor mike pence. all right. now that you've gotten to hear from both sides, we're going to bring you analysis from our panel of experts. who won round one? and what will it mean going into the rest of the race, next.

moments ago you heard from interim dnc chair donna brazile and trump's campaign manager kellyanne conway. let's get beyond the spin and see what's going to matter coming out of last night's

debate. let's bring in senior editor of the atlantic, ron brownstein, washington bureau chief of the daily beast, jackie kucinich, cnn national political recorder meave restin, and cnn political analyst david gregory. david gregory, we begin with you. what popped out in terms of each side's spin? >> well, i think kellyanne conway is an effective advocate for donald trump, but some of the things she's saying are really not going to pass muster. the notion that donald trump is going to get points from women because he refused to attack bill clinton's infidelity and promised perhaps to do it the next time and that's something that women will respond to, i think that's a pretty thin argument. she also said about hillary clinton that she will say things that aren't polite and are not true, which is rich for someone who works for donald trump. so i think she is right and effective when she says trump had a very strong outsider message, particularly in the first 30 to 45 minutes of the

debate. i think had he been better prepared, more disciplined, he would have been able to amplify on that throughout the debate and keep driving that home. what happened, i think, is that he really unraveled getting caught up by not releasing his taxes, birtherism, attacks on women and so forth, on a rock where he simply didn't look good. the shallowness -- one other thing. the notion that leaving forces in iraq created isis is an important point. the fact he doesn't acknowledge as well that the pr jen to be of isis, al za car we was the creator of isis and there before the iraq war. >> ron, what did you hear from kellyanne's interview? >> she made some news that's almost certainly going to be discussed in that next debate. donald trump responding to his earlier tweets, describing global climate change as a hoax, saying he believed the climate was changing through a natural process but not through human

activity. that is a big hanging fruit now that i think is going to be very much in the focus for hillary clinton, especially given as we talked about before probably her biggest single problem in the electorate right now is she's underperforming with millennials. this is an issue she can use both against donald trump and not incidentally against gary johnson, who's drawing -- has a similar position to donald trump on the issue. >> kellyanne tried to button that up by saying we don't really know what hillary clinton thinks about global warming. that's just not true. it's all over her website. she's talked about it in many different interviews. she believes it's man made and has to be stopped at home and abroad. if anything, she may exaggerate it by saying it's the number one threat we face as a civilization. >> that's a real distinction you see going forward. >> absolutely. trump is running an argument that -- an all of the above energy strategy, but one that talks about the revival of the coal industry. clearly the obama clean power plan does envision ta reduced

role for coal. market forces are also driving that. donald trump is -- this kind of solidified donald trump's nonurban, red state, energy producing appeal but adds to his problems both i think with younger voters and those college educated white voters. >> and it will be so easy for her now to activate all of those surrogates that she's going to send out on the trail to make the case that a vote for gary johnson is a vote for donald trump. i think that climate change and that exchange right there this morning will be one of those driving issues that can help the clinton campaign do that. >> maybe they'll finally get al gore out of hiding. >> another one that may be very helpful to the clinton campaign going forward was what was not said last night about birtherism and the racial nature of it, racist nature of it. donna brazile took this very hard, not politically, but personally and says trump just

doesn't get it. here's her explanation. >> he owes us an apology. and i know it's not forthcoming, so i know i'm speaking into the wild darkness of donald trump, but i think he should be ashamed of himself to bring that up and to say -- and this is what he said. i'm the one who got him to produce the birth certificate. it's amazing. >> you don't think he's one that got him to produce the birth certificate? >> i think it's a shame we put the president of the united states through this. it's just awful. and every time we talk about it, it's the wound. it's the wound that won't heal. >> now, the context of the statement matters that you don't get from that sound bite. she's saying, you know, blacks in this country with slave history, the documentation is an issue of sensitivity to generations back, that they couldn't have them. just weren't able because they didn't come from here. i say nothing, that was his quote last night. i say nothing to the people offended by this, shows he doesn't get it. >> this was a way that donald trump and other people used to

try to delegitimize the first african-american president. of course that's offensive. you heard one of your focus group members say that was offensive. this is a big deal, particularly because donald trump has been trying to -- well, trying to reach out to the african-american community. but that makes all of his -- just words. you know, all the weeks he spent doing this, it makes it theater rather than -- >> it's such a puzzling strategy why he can't let it go. all of his advisers have told him to let it go. he had a moment where he could have made an apology that may have gone a long way to convincing some of those, you know, softer republicans who are not sure about his racist rhetoric. >> a big chunk of his coalition still believes it. donald trump's appeal is he says the unpolitical thing. >> last word, david gregory. >> look, donald trump, his effectiveness on trade, his

effectiveness as an outsider who's really calling for fundamental change, who is blaming the obama years and the administration, including secretary clinton for the fact the middle east is on fire, these are strong arguments for a change agent, but it's getting lost in some of these other areas he delved into. >> panel, thank you very much. >> quick programming note. president obama sits down with jake tapper for a cnn town hall to talk about his legacy and issues facing u.s. veterans. that'll be wednesday night at 9:00 p.m. donald trump looking to make up ground with women and minorities, as we've been talking about, in order to overtake clinton in the polls with them. how will some of his words last night affect them? we'll discuss that next. ♪ ♪ jon batiste has mastered new ways

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overtake clinton in the polls

donald trump and hillary clinton trying to woo female voters in last night's debate. it is, of course, a critical voting bloc that they both need to win. so who made a dent? joining us now, cnn political commentator and senior writer for "the federalist," mary katherine hamm, and a cameo by phil, as well as maureen dowd. >> nothing says woman voter like phil. >> she's also the author of "the year of voting dangerously." great to have both of you here. what did donald trump do to win over women last night, mary katherine? >> i think if you're looking for him to win them over on specific women's issues, i don't think he's going to be doing that. his greatest chance was in that first part of the debate when he was not off message, talking about trade. >> the first half hour? >> yes. that might be the area where some women might say, well, i wasn't sure about this guy, but he was doing okay.

problem is if they see the clips from later in the night. i think it may reverse that trend. >> one of the things that may stick out, maureen, is what he said that he was going to say but didn't say but then mentioned it anyway and tried to pass it off as a virtue. confusing? it won't be in a second. here's what he said. >> hillary is hitting me with tremendous commercials, some of it said in entertainment, some of it said -- somebody who's been very vicious to me, rosie o'donnell. i said very tough things to her. i think everybody would agree she deserves it and nobody feels sorry for her. you want to know the truth? i was going to say something extremely rough to hillary, to her family, and i said to myself, i can't do it. i just can't do it. it's inappropriate. it's not nice. >> problem is, we all know what he was talking about. so he really effectively did do it. what does that show us? >> well, i think kellyanne conway and maybe even roger

ailes, had a plan for him to come in and be the gracious donald trump. that was obviously a stretch. so he tried it by calling her madam secretary. then she was calling him donald or don, a little diminishment there. i checked with the women in my family, my basket of deplorables. >> because they're trump supporters. >> well, they're on and off the train. my sister thought he won. my niece said, well, i'd rather have anyone than this knucklehead, but he didn't do anything to make me vote for anyone else. so, i mean, it seemed like she won, but she didn't have that captain moment where it was such a crazy meltdown. you know, you would worry about him with the nuclear codes, but on the other hand, you know, the psychologists did do their job. she got under his skin a lot, i

think, and more and more as the debate went on. he just looked like he wanted to, you know, really go back to miss universe contestants. >> what did you think were the moments that she was able to do that? >> i think they were right in perceiving -- and donald trump does this a lot, has done it a lot throughout the campaign. he'll take a premise and run with it. she's like, here are some rabbit holes. would you like to go down them? sure, i'm game. he was able to contain them for about 30 minutes, which is what we often see. he can be the more disciplined donald trump for a while, but the lid sort of boils over. that's what happened in the second half. because he wants to defend himself on every single point, he lost so many opportunities to go after her on the e-mails, for instance, and just command the facts. that's where she gets a little upset. but he didn't come at her nearly enough on the details to make her go there. >> how much does it matter, you think, what we saw last night?

>> i think it matters because she was able to -- i'm sure the people who think she's a know it all still think that. and the people who like him still like him, but it was sort of interesting to see that she's so cleverly was able to control it, as you say. she lured him into these places. he could have gone after her on the iraq war. her vote for the iraq war was much worse than the timing of when he was against it. he didn't -- you know, the trouble with narcissists is it's like a fun house mirror. they either see themselves as larger or smaller. so he couldn't get beyond his ego with her. >> so back to women, back to female voters. what about that moment where he decided no the -- not to say anything about bill clinton? kellyanne conway said she thinks women will appreciate how he handled that.

does he have the high moral ground? >> i'm not sure he gets credit for that. what he does get credit for, if he's going down this road, is just saying other things people are too polite to say. some voters do like that, even some women voters. i'm not sure he's going to get credit with the women voters he needs credit with for sort of saying but not really saying this thing. it's classic donald trump to bring up an attack and say, but i'm not going to go there. well, you kind of did go there. i'm not sure that wins you any votes. i don't think there was a huge change moment in this debate. they were both good in the ways they're usually good and both bad in the ways they're usually bad. >> minority voters? did either of them do something that would have reeled in more minority voters? >> well, that was awful when he was defending himself on the birther thing and then tried to act like he was doing it in the service of president obama and the african-americans. i mean, it's just so tone deaf. then he kind of admitted for the first time that he hadn't paid taxes and bragged about it.

then he went back and bragged about rosie o'donnell and said she had it coming. then he was bragging about stiffing his customers. >> so african-american voters not drawn to any of those. >> nothing is a good sound bite that will be used in the ads of future, but she has a challenge of getting people very excited about her. i'm not sure that happened last night. they may be -- minority voters in particular may be turned off enough by that birther piece. >> maureen, do you think he can be better? forget this no preparation stuff, that he can come out and be the trump he needs to be. >> instead of eating chee cheeseburgers with roger ailes at the golf club and coming up with zingers. >> she got him off at the very beginning, she got him off his game because she brought up his father and suggested that his father -- >> bank rolled him. >> yes, which he's very sensitive on. right away. then she cleverly acted like her

father and the drapery factory would have been the type of person he would have stiff. so she had a lot of layers psychologically going on there. >> maureen, mary katherine, thank you very much for your analysis this morning. >> the good news for you is that in the first 15 minutes or so, they really went deep lot coming about how they would restore jobs, but it was a lot of talk about it, more than we've heard in any other point in the election so we'll take you through it next. til one of u clips a food truck, ruining your perfect record. yeah. now, you would think your insurance company would cut you some slack, right? no. your insurance rates go through the roof. your perfect record doesn't get you anything. anything. perfect! for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise your rates due to your first accident.

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steve forbes, chairman and editor in chief of forbes media is here. he ran for president in 1996 and 2000 endorses donald trump and tony schwartz. he's co-author on the deal. he was advising hillary clinton in the lead up to the debate. gentleman, thank you for being here. >> good to be here. >> we had you on the show. you said here's what hillary clinton needs to do that will derail any effort by donald trump to stay on message. do you think she did that? do you think that was a good thing for the health of the debate? >> well, i think it's a good thing for the health of her candidacy, it was a good thing for the health of america and it worked 100%. >> what was the device she used? >> there are two things donald trump did last night that i think are extraordinarily revealing. number one, he didn't prepare. why didn't he prepare? because he can't prepare because he is incapable of paying attention for long enough to

prepare. so that thrust him into being circumliqusious. that was very important. number two, he choked. you can put it no other way. he choked. it's funny to see bobby knight walking around there. bobby knight would have, if he would have been honest, would have said he choked. >> on what? >> he choked on the fact that what gets trump the most is anything that makes him feel small. anything that makes him feel small makes him feel the need to respond, and to respond by doubling down. so he doubled down on birtherism. he doubled down on rosie o'donnell. what does double down mean? it means you say something outrageous, you get criticized for it, but then when you get the criticism you say it again in an even more intense way. what he showed was his character. forget about ideology for a moment. his character is such that he made it clear that he's not

suited to be president. and i don't know what steve is going to say, but i will say that this is a bright man. deep down he knows that this is a man unsuited to be president. >> let's see what steve forbes is going to say. >> i don't think steve forbes believes that on any level of his soul. >> what was your reaction? >> tony's trying to do what she did to trump last night and bait me so i'm going to take you, not him. >> okay. what were your impressions? >> well, she did win on points. what was amazing, after the debate with your pollster, who pointed out that there was a real democratic skew, 41% versus the normal 31%, on the economic issue it was a virtual tie, which means that if he presses the economic issue and not get side tracked in these various rabbit holes or whatever, he's got a winning issue. she put nothing on the table that would assure people the next four years will be different from the previous eight years. >> now let's discuss this a little bit more. we want to play some sound of this back and forth they had about taxes, and i thought it

raised a really interesting issue. let's play this out. >> maybe he doesn't want the american people, all of you watching to know that he's paid nothing in federal taxes the only years that he's done. he didn't pay any federal taxes. >> it's having the rest of our country. >> it's not my question. i'm sure his attorneys are telling him not to, who matters

more, him or the american people. the idea, your flat tax has as part of its virtue, everybody should contribute to society. we need to do that. the more you make the more you'll contribute on a legitimate basis. he's making a different case. he's saying, i'm smart to give nothing. do you think that could be a concern for voters? >> well, this is where he missed a huge opportunity. he could say like joe kennedy did back in the 1930s, stock market plunged, roosevelt, first head of the sec. i know what was part of wall street because i was part of it and i'm going to fix it. trump should have said i know the complexity of the tax code. i know better than anyone else how to fix it and clean it up. that's what i'm going to do. that's why i have a tax simplification plan. he should have said, because i know it, i can cure it. >> why didn't he do it? >> it's preposterous. steve, you know that what he suggested is that the best way to reform the tax code is to give massive tax cuts to people like yourself, to the wealthiest

people in america. is that what americans want to hear, that the wealthiest are going to get tax cuts and they are going to get nothing? i don't think it is. i don't think it is. let me say this -- >> hold on. let's counter point by point. what's your counter? >> the counter is whether it's john kennedys across the board or reagans, you do it for everybody. he should have pointed out with his deductions he's going to remove millions of people from the federal income tax roles. >> that's not true, steve. what he's going to do is he's going to prompt the rich to pay less and the middle class to pay more and you know that's true. >> no, because it's -- >> hold on. >> wait. >> go ahead. >> let's look at the facts. if you reduce tax rates and you increase deduktd shuns, you're automatically giving the middle class a break. that's what kennedy did. that's what reagan did. it worked. >> you respect him as an outlet. why? >> they have this kennedyesque way of looking at the economy.

they trashed back in the early 1980s, economists trashed reagan's tax cuts. they worked. kennedy's tax cuts. >> we wound up with being left with one of the biggest deficits we had. >> one statistic on the 1980s. most of that increased the deficit. 1.7 trillion national debt came from the big military buildup which worked because we won the cold war. the wealth of the nation in the 1980s, debt went up 1.7 trillion. the wealth of the nation went up 17 trillion. >> okay. >> real wages went up. >> let's be clear. this is a guy who said i did smart things to say that i could benefit from a drop in the housing market. >> yeah. >> he is a self-interested man. the key issue here is does he have your interest in mind or does he have his interest in mind? >> gentleman, thank you. >> thank you. >> we're leaving it there. thank you very much for both of your takes on this. we have more coverage including live interviews with clinton's campaign manager and trump's running mate,