information to frame the media narrative for the forthcoming -- >> one of the things -- >> somebody who worked for the trump taj mahal in atlantic city who sold pianos and never got paid and all of a sudden they tie it to a tax issue. >> where this could go, there was a great column in the "wall street journal" today by bret stevens, who is decidedly not a trump fan, but he wrote a column, as if a speech for donald trump. and the aspects of it were liberal hypocrisy, and wherever you go, donald trump's -- one of the reasons he strikes a nerve with people is because she has they're raising this fuss, and think of alicia machado in all of this, and hillary clinton this morning talking about -- or yesterday morning, wherever it was, talking about with a young women about bullying women, and there you've got this whole string of women who feel they've been personally bullied by hillary clinton, bringing these things out. and what you're dealing with here is hypocrisy on a whole host of issues. whether it's the economy, whether it's taxes, whether it's

women, whether it's whatever. and -- >> young trump's main argument for himself is "you suck too"? part of the problem we have, there's these false equivalencies you guys do. even on the tax stuff, you're saying, well, hillary clinton took some deductions, too. hillary clinton pays 30% of her income in income taxes. >> why is that enough? >> trump pays zero. >> if she wants 65%, she wants 65% on the estate tax or -- >> she doesn't want estate tax. this is the point about false equivalency. you guys last night were pointing out, hillary took the same deduction, she took $3,000, that was it. trump took $900 million. >> it's the principle of it! >> we are just a few seconds away from the start of this vice presidential debate. let's go back to wolf. wolf? >> yeah, we're here inside, we're waiting, only a couple of moments away. jake, the stakes clearly are enormous tonight. how do you see them? >> well, i mean, kaine and pence are both nice and moderate seeming guys. they're both pleasant. it's going to be like two guys,

two dads from your block coming together. the real people who are there on stage, although they're not physically there on stage, are hillary clinton and donald trump. you're going to see trump attacked, clinton attacked. you're not going to really hear the records of kaine and pence dived into and dissected all that much. it's going to really be about the people at the top of the ticket. this is a proxy war, as they say, and it's going to be fascinating to watch, wolf. >> and cdana, that is a major moment for both of these guys. you have to assume they're pretty nervous. >> i'm sure they're nervous. they have been practicing in traditional ways. and when it comes to mike pence, what i find fascinating is he has done a slew of national interviews, not just to be a surrogate for donald trump, but to prepare for this moment. to be comfortable with getting really tough questions on a national stage, because there's none bigger than this for him. >> yeah, you interviewed him, i interviewed him, a lot of -- >> jake interviewed him. >> jake interviewed him, we all

interviewed him. and at the time it was a little surprising he was willing to do all of these interviews, but you've now reported that he was willing to do them, effectively, as practice for tonight. >> that's exactly right. it was the testing ground that he and his aides specifically thought was important for him to do, and they're hoping that it pays off tonight. >> it's going to be 90 minutes without any commercial interruption. the moderator of this debate, elaine quijano, she's getti tin ready to make her introductions to welcome these vice presidential candidates on to the stage. nobody is going to be standing. they're going to be sitting. let's listen into elaine right no now. >> good evening from longwood, university in farmville, virginia, and welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2016, sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. i'm elaine quijano, anchor at

cbsn and correspondent for cbs news. it's an honor to moderate this debate between senator tim kaine and governor mike pence. both are longtime public servants who are also proud fathers of sons serving in the u.s. marines. the campaigns have agreed to the rules of this 90-minute debate. there will be nine different segments, covering domestic and foreign policy issues. each segment will begin with a question to both candidates, who will each have two minutes to answer. then i'll ask follow-up questions to facilitate a discussion between the candidates. by coin toss, it's been determined that senator kaine will be first to answer the opening question. we have an enthusiastic audience tonight. they've agreed to only express that enthusiasm once at the end of the debate and right now, as we welcome governor mike pence and senator tim kaine. [ cheers and applause ]

>> gentleman, welcome. it truly is a privilege to be with both of you tonight. i would like to start with the topic of presidential leadership. 28 years ago, tomorrow night, lloyd benson said, the vice presidential debate was not about the qualifications for the vice presidency, but about how if tragedy should occur, the vice president has to step in without any margin for error, without time for preparation, to take over the responsibility for the biggest job in the world. what about your qualities, your skills, and your temperament equip you to step into that role at a moment's notice? senator kaine? >> elaine, thank you for being here tonight, and governor pence, welcome, it is so great to be back at longwood

university in farmville, virginia. this is a very special place. 65 years ago, a young, courageous woman, barbara johns, led a walkout of her high school, moten high school. she made history by protesting school segregation. she believed our nation was stronger together and that walkout led to the brown versus board of education decision that moved us down the path toward equality. i am so proud to be running with another strong history-making woman, hillary clinton, to be president of the united states. i'm proud because her vision of stronger together, building an economy that works for all, not just those at the top, being safe in the world, not only with a strong military, but also strong alliances to battle terrorism and climate change, and also to build a community of respect, just like barbara johns tried to do 65 years ago. that's why i'm so proud to be her running mate. hillary told me why she asked me to be her running mate. she said the test of a clinton

administration will not be the signing of a bill or the passage of a bill. it will be whether we can make somebody's life better, whether we can make a classroom better learning environment for schoolkids or teachers. whether we can make us safer. it's going to be about results. and she said to me, you've been a missionary and a civil rights lawyer, you've been a city councilman and mayor. you've been a lieutenant governor and governor and now a u.s. senator. i think you will help me figure out how to govern this nation, so we always keep in mind that the success of the administration is the difference we make in people's lives. and that's what i bring to the ticket. that experience, having served at all levels of government, but my primary role is to be hillary clinton's right-hand person and strong supporter as she puts together the most historic administration possible. and i relish that role, i'm so proud of her. i'll just say this, we trust hillary clinton, my wife and i, we trust her with the most important thing in our life. we have a son deployed overseas in the marine corps right now. we trust hillary clinton as

president and commander in chief, but the thought of donald trump as commander in chief scares us to death. >> governor pence? >> well, first off, thank you, elaine, and thank you to norwood university for their wonderful hospitality and commission on presidential debates. it's deeply humbling for me to be here, to be surrounded by my wonderful family and senator kaine, it's an honor to be here with you, as well. and i just, um, i also want to say thanks to everyone that's looking in tonight, who understands what an enormously important time this is in the life of our nation. for the last 7 1/2 years, we've seen america's place in the world weakened. we've seen an economy stifled by more taxes, more regulation, a war on coal and a failing health care reform come to be known as obamacare and the american people know that we need to make a change. and so i want to thank all of you for being us tonight. i also want to thank donald trump for making that call and

invitie ining us to be a part os ticket. i have to tell you, i'm a small town boy from a place not too far from farmville. i grew up with a corn field in my backyard. my grandfather had emigrated to this country when he was about my son's age. my mom and dad built everything that matters in a small town in southern indiana. they built a family and a good name and a business, and they raised a family. and i dream some day of representing my hometown in washington, d.c., but honestly, elaine, i never imagined, never imagined i would have the opportunity to be governor of the state that i love, let alone be sitting at a table like this, in this kind of a position. so to answer your question, i would say i -- i would hope that if, uh, if the responsibility ever fell to me in this role, that i would meet it with the way that i'm going to meet the responsibility should i be elected vice president of the united states. and that's to bring a lifetime of experience, a lifetime growing up in a small town. a lifetime where i've served in

the congress of the united states, where i've led a state that works, in the great state of indiana. and whatever other responsibilities might follow from this, i -- i would hope and frankly i would pray to be able to meet that moment with that lifetime of experience. >> senator kaine, on the campaign trail, you praised secretary clinton's character, including her commitment to public service. yet 60% of voters don't think she's trustworthy. why do so many people distrust her? is it because they have questions about her e-mails and the clinton foundation? >> elaine, let me tell you why i trust hillary clinton. here's what people should look at as they look at a public servant. do they have a passion in their life that showed up before they were in public life? and have they held on to that passion throughout their life, regardless of whether they were in office or not, succeeding or failing. hillary clinton has that passion, from a time as a kid in a methodist youth group in the suburbs of chicago, she has been focused on serving others with a special focus on empowering

families and kids. as a civil rights lawyer in the south, with the children's defense fund, first lady of arkansas and this country, senator, secretary of state, it's always been about putting others first. and that's a sharp contrast with donald trump. donald trump always puts himself first. he built a business career in the words of one of his own campaign staffers, off the backs of the little guy. and as a candidate, he started his campaign with a speech where he called mexicans rapists and criminals and he has pursued the discredited and really outrageous lie that president obama wasn't born in the united states. it is so painful to suggest that we go back to think about these days where an african-american could not be a citizen of the united states. and i can't imagine how governor pence can defend the insult-driven selfish me-first style of donald trump. >> governor pence, let me ask you, you have said that donald trump is thoughtful, compassionate, and steady. yet 67% of voters feel that he

is a risky choice, and 65% feel that he does not have the right kind of temperament to be president. why do so many americans think mr. trump is simply too erratic? >> let me say first and foremost that senator, you and hillary clinton would know a lot about an insult-driven campaign. it really is remarkable, at a time when literally, in the wake of hillary clinton's tenure as secretary of state, where she was the architect of the obama administration's foreign policy, we see entire portions of the world, particularly the wider middle east, spinning out of control. the situation we're watching hour by hour in syria today is the result of the weak foreign policy that hillary clinton helped lead in this administration and create. the newly emboldened aggression of russia, whether it was in ukraine or -- >> you guys love russia. you boast -- >> their heavy-handed approach. >> you both have said vice

president -- >> we'll get to russia. >> these guys have praised vladimir putin as a great leader. >> we have that coming up. >> i must have hit a nerve here. >> why the disconnect? >> at a time of great challenge in the life of this nation, where we've weakened america's place in the world, stifled america's economy, the campaign of hillary clinton and tim kaine has been an avalanche of insults. look, to get to your question about trustworthiness, donald trump has built a business through hard times and through good times. he's brought an extraordinary business acumen, he's employed tens of thousands of people in this country. >> and paid a few taxes and lost $1 billion a year. >> but why the disconnect with your running mates? >> but there's a reason why people question the trustworthiness of hillary clinton. and that's because they're paying attention. i mean, the reality is, when she was secretary of state, senator, come on, she had a clinton foundation accepting

contributions from foreign governments -- >> you are donald trump's apprentice. let me talk about this -- >> senator, i think it's still on my time. >> isn't this a discussion. >> this is our open discussion. >> let's talk about -- >> well, let me -- >> governor, you had an opportunity. >> let me interrupt you and finish my sentence, if i can. >> finish it. >> the clinton administration accepted foreign contributions from foreign governments and foreign donors while she was secretary of state -- >> okay, now i can get to weigh in -- >> senator -- >> keep that pay to play -- >> governor pence doesn't think the world's going so well and he's going to say it's everybody's fault -- >> do you? >> let me tell you this, when secretary clinton became secretary of state, did you know that osama bin laden was alive? >> yes. >> did you know that we have 175,000 troops deployed on the battlefield in iraq and afghanistan. did you know that russia was expanding its stockpile? under secretary clinton's leadership, she was part of the national team, public safety team that went after and revived

the dormant hunt against bin laden and wiped him off the face of the earth. she worked to reduce the russian's chemical weapons stockpile. she worked a tough negotiation with nations around the world to eliminate the iranian nuclear weapons program without firing a shot -- >> eliminate the iranian nuclear weapons program? >> absolutely. without firing a shot. and instead of 175,000 american troops deployed overseas, we now have 15,000. >> right and -- >> these are very, very -- >> and iraq has been overrun by isis, because hillary clinton failed to renegotiate -- >> -- more american troops in iraq, you can propose -- >> hillary clinton failed to renegotiate a status of forces agreement -- >> gentleman -- >> we removed all our troops -- >> i would like to move on -- >> -- in that vacuum -- >> i would like to -- >> -- in overrun areas of iraq. >> president bush said we would leave iraq at the end of 2011. and elaine, iraq didn't want our troops to stay and they wouldn't give us the protection for our troops. guess what, if a nation where our troops are serving does not

want us to stay, we're not going to stay without their protection. >> it was a failure of the secretary of state -- >> we need to move on to the next topic, gentleman. there are a lot of people wondering in this economy about the economy. >> right. >> let's turn to the issue of the economy. >> okay. >> according to the nonpartisan committee for a responsible federal budget, neither of your economic plans will reduce the growing $19 trillion gross national debt. in fact, your plans would add even more to it. both of you were governors who balanced state budgets. are you concerned that adding more to the debt could be disastrous for the country? governor pence? >> i think the fact that under this past administration of which hillary clinton was a part, we've almost doubled the national debt, is atrocious. i mean, i'm very proud of the fact that i come from a state that works, the state of indiana has balanced budgets. we cut taxes, we've made record investments in education and in infrastructure, and i still finish my term with $2 billion in the bank.

that's a little bit different than when senator kaine was governor here in virginia. he actually -- he actually tried to raise taxes by about $4 billion. he left his state about $2 billion in the hole. in the state of indiana, we've cut unemployment in half, unemployment doubled when he was governor. but i think he's a very fitting running mate for hillary clinton, because in the wake of a season where american families are struggling in this economy, under the weight of higher taxes and obamacare and the war on coal and the stifling avalanche of regulation coming out of this administratio administration, hillary clinton and tim kaine want more of the same. it's really remarkable that they're advocating more than $1 trillion in tax increases. i get that. you tried to raise taxes here in virginia and were unsuccessful. but $1 trillion in tax increases, more regulation, more of the same war on coal, and more of obamacare that now even former president bill clinton calls obamacare a crazy plan. but hillary clinton and tim kaine want to build on

obamacare. they want to expand it into a single-payer program and hillary clinton this is obamacare is great stuff. donald trump and i have a plan to get this economy moving again the way it worked in the 1980s and in the 1960s, and that is by lowering taxes across the board for small businesses and family farms, ending the war on coal that's hurting jobs and hurting this economy here in virginia. repealing obamacare lock, stock, and barrel, and repealing all of the executive orders that barack obama has signed that are stifling economic growth in this economy. we can get america moving again, put on top of that the kind of trade deals that'll put the american worker first, and you've got a prescription for real growth. and when you get the economy growing, elaine, that's when you can deal with the national debt. when we get back to 3.5% to 4% growth, which donald trump's plan will do, then we're going to have the resources to meet our nation's needs at home and abroad, and we're going to have

the ability to bring down the national debt. >> senator kaine? >> elaine, on the economy, there's a fundamental choice nor the american electorate. do you want a you're hired the president in hillary clinton or a you're fired president in donald trump? i don't think that's such a hard choice. hillary and i have a plan that's on the table that's a you're hired plan. five components. first thing we do is we invest in manufacturing, infrastructure, and research into clean energy jobs of tomorrow. second thing is we invest in our workforce. from pre-k education to great teachers to debt-free college and tuition-free colleges for families that make less than $125,000 a year. third, we promote fairness by raising the minimum wage, so you can't work full-time and be under the poverty level, and by paying women equal pay for equal work. fourth, we promote small business growth, just as we've done in virginia, to make it easier to smart and grow small businesses. hillary and i each grew up in small business families. my dad who ran an iron working and welding shop is here tonight. and fifth, we have a tax plan

that targets tax relief to middle class individuals and small businesses. and asks those at the very top who have benefited as we've come out of recession to pay more. the trump plan is a different plan. it's a "you're fired" plan. and there's two key elements to it. first, donald trump said, wages are too high. and both donald trump and mike pence think that we ought to eliminate the federal minimum wage. mike pence, when he was in congress, voted against raising the minimum wage above $5.15. and he has been a one-man bulwark against minimum wage increases in indiana. the second component is no more tax breaks for those at the very top. trillions of dollars of tax breaks for those like donald trump. that's exactly like what we did years ago and it put the economy into the deepest recession since the 1930s. independent analysts say the clinton plan would grow the economy by 10.5 million jobs. the trump plan would cost 3.5 million jobs.

and donald trump, why would he do this? because his tax plan basically helps him, and if he ever met his promise and he gave his tax returns to the american public like he said he would, we would see just how much his economic plan is really a trump-first plan. >> on that point, governor pence, recently "the new york times" released part of mr. trump's 1995 tax return and reported that he could have avoided paying federal income taxes for years. yesterday, mr. trump said he brilliantly used the laws to pay as little tax as legally possible. does that seem fair to you? >> well, first, let me say i appreciated the "you're hired," "you're fired" thing, you used that a lot and i think your running mate used a lot of pre-done lines. look, what you just all heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending, more deficits, more debt, more government, and if you think that's all working, then you

look at the other side of the table. i mean, the truth of the matter is, the policies of this administration, which hillary clinton and senator kaine want to continue, have run this economy into a ditch. we're in the -- >> 15 million new jobs? >> -- economic recovery since the great depression. -- millions more people living in poverty today than the day that barack obama with hillary clinton at her sidestepped into the oval office. >> -- improved dramatically between 2014 and 2015. >> honestly, senator, you can roll out the numbers and the sunny side, but people in scranton know different. people in ft. wayne, indiana, know different. this economy is struggling. the answer to this economy is not more taxes, it's -- >> but it's not to give away tax relief to the folks at the top. i am interested to hearing whether he'll defend his running mate's not releasing taxes, and not paying taxes. >> absolutely, i will. >> governor, with all due respect, the question was whether it seems fair to you that mr. trump said he brilliantly used the laws to pay as little tax as legally

possible. >> well, this is probably the difference between donald trump and hillary clinton and senator kaine. and god bless you for it, career public servants, that's great. donald trump is a businessman, not a career politician. he actually built a business. those tax returns that came out publicly this week show that he faced some pretty tough times 20 years ago. but like virtually every other business including the "new york times" not too long ago, he used what's called net operating loss. we have a tax code, senator, that actually is designed to encourage entrepreneurship -- >> but why won't he release his tax returns? >> well, we're answering the question about a business thing. >> i do want to come back to that. >> his tax returns showed that he went through a very difficult time, but he used the tax code just the way it's supposed to be used. and he did it brilliantly. >> how do you know that? you haven't seen his tax returns. >> because he's created a business that's worth billions of dollars. >> how do you know that? >> and with regard to paying taxes, this whole riff about not

paying taxes and people saying he didn't pay taxes for years, donald trump has created tens of thousands of jobs, and he's paid payroll -- >> elaine, let me talk about this. >> senator, i'll give you about 30 seconds to respond and i have question on social security for you -- >> hillary clinton are going to raise taxes and donald trump and i are going to cut them. >> donald trump started this campaign in 2014 and he said, if i run for president, i will absolutely release my taxes. >> and he will. >> he's broken his first promise. >> he hasn't broken his promise. >> he stood on the stage last week and when hillary said, you haven't been paying taxes, he said, "that makes me smart." so it's smart not to pay for our military? it's smart not to pay for veterans? it's smart not to pay for teachers? and i guess all of us who do pay for those things, i guess, were stupid. >> senator, do you take all the deductions you're entitled to? >> the last thing i want to ask governor pence is -- >> i do. >> governor pence had to give donald trump his tax returns to show that he was qualified to be vice president. donald trump must give the american public his tax returns

to show that he's qualified to be president and he's breaking his promise. >> elaine, i have to respond to this. >> you get very little time. 20 seconds. >> i'll be very respectful. look, donald trump has file offered 1 hur00 pages of financ disclosures -- >> but he said he would release his tax returns. >> the american people can review that. and -- >> gentleman, i need to ask you about social security -- >> richard nixon released tax returns woo while he was under audit. >> gentleman, the people at home cannot understand either one of you when you speak over each other. i would please ask you to wait until it is that the other the finished. >> all right. we're having fun up here. >> senator kaine, on the issue of social security, in 20 years when the social security trust funds run out of money, you'll be 66. your benefits could be cut by as much as $7,500 per year. what would your administration do to prevent this cut? >> first, we're going to protect social security, which is one of

the greatest programs that the american government has ever done. it happened at a time when you would work your whole life, your whole life, raising your kids, working, being a little league coach or a sunday school teacher and you would retire into poverty. and social security has enabled people to retire with dignity and overwhelmingly not be in poverty. we have to keep it solvent. and we will keep it solvent. and we'll look for strategies like adjusting the payroll tax cap upward in order to do that. here's what hillary and i will not do. and i want to make this very plain. we will never, ever engage in a risky scheme to privatize social security. donald trump wrote a book and he said social security is a ponzi scheme and privatization would be good for all of us. and when congressman pence was in congress, he was the chief cheerleader for the privatization of social security, even after president bush stopped pushing for it, congressman pence kept pushing for it. we're going to stand up against

efforts to privatize social security, and we'll look for ways to keep it solvent going forward, focusing primarily on the payroll tax cap. >> governor pence, i'll give you an opportunity to respond. >> well, thanks, elaine. there they go again. okay -- >> go read the book. >> all donald trump and i have said about social security is we're going to meet our obligations to our seniors. that's it. >> go read the book. >> we've said we're going to meet the obligations of medicare. that's what this campaign is really about, senator. i get, this is -- this is the old scare tactic that they roll out -- >> but you have a voting record, governor. >> and i get all of that. i just, look -- >> i -- >> there's a question that you asked earlier -- >> i can't believe you won't defend your own voting record. >> i have to go back, too. well, look, i -- you're running with hillary clinton, who wants to raise taxes by $1 trillion, increase spending by $2 trillion, and you say you're going to keep the promises of social security. donald trump and i are going to cut taxes, we're going to -- >> you're not going to cut taxes. you're going to raise taxes on the middle class. >> -- so we can meet the obligations of social security

and medicare. stay on the path that your matter has us on, we're going to be in a mountain range of debt. and we're going to face hard choices -- >> gentleman, i want to move on now. >> you did ask this question about debt, and the debt explosion on the trump plan is much, much bigger than anything on the clinton side. >> all right. let me move on now to the issue of law enforcement and race relations. law enforcement and race relations. after the dallas police shooting, police chief david brown said, quote, we're asking cops to do too much in this country. every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. not enough mental health funding, not enough drug addiction funding, schools fail, let's give it to the cops. do we ask too much of police officers in this country? and how would you specifically address the chief's concerns? senator kaine? >> elaine, i think that's a very fair comment. i think we put a lot on police shoulders.

i was a city council and mayor in richmond and when i came in, we had one of the highest homicide rates in the united states. we fought very, very hard over the course of my time there with our police department and we reduced our homicide rate yearly in half. and when i was governor of virginia, we worked hard, too. and we did something we had really wanted to do. for the first time ever, we cracked the top ten, ten safest states. here's what i learned as a mayor and a governor. the way you make communities safer and police safer is through community policing. you build the bonds through the community and police force, build bonds of understanding, and then when people feel comfortable in their communities, that gap between the police and the communities they serve narrows. and when that gap narrows, it's safer for the communities and safer for the police. that model still works across our country, but there are some other models that don't work. an overly aggressive, more

militaryized model. donald trump recently say we need to do more stop and frisk around the country. that would be a big mistake. it polarizes the relationship between the police and the community. so here's what we'll do. we'll focus on community policing. we will focus on and hillary clinton has rolled out a really comprehensive mental health reform package that she worked on with law enforcement professionals, and we will also fight the scourge of gun violence in the united states. i'm a gun owner. i'm a strong second amendment supporter, but i've got a lot of scar tissue, because when i was governor of virginia, there was a horrible shooting at virginia tech, and we learned that through that painful situation that gaps in the background record check system should have been closed and it could have prevented that crime, so we're going to work to close background record checks. one of those killed at virginia tech was a 70-plus-year-old romanian holocaust survivor. he'd survived the holocaust and survived the soviet union takeover of his country. but then he was a visiting professor at virginia tech and

he couldn't survive the scourge of gun violence. we can support the second amendment and do things like background record checks and make us safer, and that will make police safer too. >> governor pence? >> you know, my uncle was a cop, a career cop, on the beat in downtown chicago. he was my hero when i was growing up. and we grew up to visit my dad's family in chicago, my three brothers and i would marvel at my uncle when he would come out in his uniform, sidearm at his side. police officers are the best of us. and the men and women, white, african-american, latino, asian, hispanic, they put their lives on the line every single day. and let my say, at the risk of agreeing with you, community policing is a great idea. it's worked in the hoosier state. and we fully support that. donald trump and i are going to make sure that law enforcement have the resources and the tools

to be able to really restore law and order to the cities and communities in this nation. it's probably, probably why the 330,000 members of the fraternal order of police endorsed donald trump as the next president of the united states of america, because they see his commitment to them. they see his commitment to law and order. but they also -- they also hear the bad mouthing, the bad mouthing that comes from people that seize upon tragedy in the wake of police action shootings as a reason to use a broad brush to accuse law enforcement of implicit bias or institutional racism. and that really has got to stop. i mean, when an african-american police officer in charlotte named brently vincent, an all-star football player who went to liberty university here in the state, went home, followed his dad into law enforcement, joined the force in

charlotte in 2014, was involved in a police action shooting that claimed the life of keith lamont scott, it was a tragedy. i mean, we -- we mourn with those who mourn. we grieve with those who grieve and we're saddened at the loss of life. but hillary clinton actually referred to that moment as an example of implicit bias in the police force, where she used -- when she was asked in the debate a week ago whether there was implicit bias in law enforcement, her only answer was that there's implicit bias in everyone in the united states. i just think -- >> can i just -- >> -- what we ought to do is stop seizing on these moments of tragedy. we ought to assure the public that we'll have a full and complete and transparent investigation wherever there's a loss of life, because of police action. but senator, please, you know, enough of this seeking every opportunity to demean law enforcement broadly by making the accusation of implicit bias every time tragedy occurs. >> elaine, people shouldn't be afraid to bring up issues of

bias in law enforcement. and if you're afraid to -- >> i'm not afraid to bring that up. >> and if you're afraid to have the discussion, you'll never solve it. so here's an example, heartbreaking, we would agree, this is a heartbreaking example. the guy, philando castile, who was killed in st. paul, he was a worker, a valued worker in a local school. and he was killed for no apparent reason in an incident that will be discussed and will be investigated. but when folks went and explore this situation, what they found is that philando castile, they called him mr. rogers with dreadlocks in the school where he worked, the kids loved him, he had been stopped by police 40 or 50 times before that fatal incident. and if you look at sentencing in this country, african-american and latinos get sentenced for the same crimes at very different rates. >> we need criminal justice reform. >> we do. >> indiana has passed criminal justice reform. >> but i want to say -- >> but that's not what you're talking about.

>> we should not be able to bring up and talk about bias in the system, we'll never solve the problem -- >> governor pence, governor pence -- >> when african-american police officers involved in a police action shooting involving an african-american, why would hillary clinton accuse that african-american police officer of implicit bias? >> i guess i can't believe you are defending the position that there is no bias and it's a topic -- >> governor pence, i have a question on that point. >> i did not make that statement. >> your fellow republican, governor pence, senator tim scott, who is african-american, recently spoke on the senate floor. he said he was stopped seven times by law enforcement in one year. >> a u.s. senator. >> he said, i have felt the anger, the frustration, the sadness, and the humiliation that comes with feeling like you're being targeted for nothing more than being just yourself. what would you say to senator scott about his experiences? >> well, i have the deepest respect for senator scott and he's a close friend. what i would say is we need to

adopt criminal justice reform nationally. i signed criminal justice reform in the state of indiana and we're very proud of it. we have got to do a better job recognizing correcting the errors in the system that do reflect on institutional bias in criminal justice, but what donald trump and i are saying is let's not have the reflex of assuming the worst of men and women in law enforcement. we truly do believe that law enforcement is not only -- >> elaine, can i -- >> so what would you say to senator scott, governor? >> law enforcement in this country is a force for good. they are the -- they truly are people that put their lives on the line every single day. but i would, i would suggest to you, what we need to do is assert a stronger leadership at the national level to support law enforcement. you just heard senator kaine reject stop and frisk. well, i would suggest to you that the families that live in

our inner cities that are besieged by crime -- >> elaine, let me just -- >> what would you tell senator scott? >> i've heard senator scott make that eloquent plea. and look, criminal justice is about respecting the law and being respected by the law. there is a fundamental respect issue here. and i just want to talk about the tone that's set from the top. donald trump during his campaign has called mexicans rapists and criminals. he's called women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. i don't like saying that in front of my wife and my mother. he attacked an indiana-born federal judge and said he was unqualified to hear a federal lawsuit because his parents were mexican. he went after john mccain, a p.o.w., and said he was ant hero because he'd been captured. he said african-americans are living in hell. and he perpetrated this outrageous and bigoted lie that president obama is not a u.s. citizen. if you want to have a society where people are respected and respect laws, you can't have

somebody at the top who demeans every group that he talks about. and i just -- again, i cannot believe that governor pence will defend the insult-driven campaign that donald trump has run. >> all right. i want to turn to our next segment now, immigration. you're running mates have both said that undocumented immigrants who have committed violent crimes should be deports. what would you tell the millions of undocumented immigrants who have not committed violent crimes? governor pence? >> donald trump's laid out a plan to end illegal immigration once and for all in this country. we've been talking it to death for 20 years. hillary clinton and tim kaine want to continue the policies of open borders, amnesty, catch and release, sanctuary cities, all the things that are driving -- that are driving wages down in this country, senator, and also, too often with criminal aliens in the country, it's bringing heartbreak. but donald trump has a plan that

he laid out in arizona, that will deal systemically with illegal immigration, beginning with border security, internal enforcement. it's probably why for the first time in the history of immigration and customs enforcement, their union actually endorsed donald trump as the next president of the united states, because they know they need help to enforce the laws of this country. and donald trump has laid out a priority to remove criminal aliens, remove people who have overstayed their visas. and once we have accomplished all of that, which will make our communities safer once the criminal aliens are out, then we'll deal with those that remain. but i have to tell you, i was listening to the avalanche of insults that were coming out of -- >> these were donald's -- i apologize. >> i forgive you. he says ours is an insult-driven campaign. did y'all just hear that? ours is an insult-driven

campaign? to be honest with you, if donald trump had said all the things he said in the way you said you said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that hillary clinton leveled when she said that half of of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. it's -- she said they were irredeemable. they were not american. i mean, it's extraordinary. and then she labeled one after another "ism" on millions of americans who believe that we can have a stronger america at home and abroad, who believe we can get this economy moving again, who believe that we can end illegal immigration once and for all. so senator, this insult-driven campaign, i mean -- >> governor -- >> that's small potato compared to hillary clinton calling half of donald trump's supporters a basket of deplorables. >> hillary clinton said something on the campaign trail and the very next day said, i shouldn't say that. >> she said she shouldn't have said half.

>> this is senator kaine's time. >> now we're even. >> look for donald trump apologizie ing apologizing. >> she apologized for saying half. >> governor, his two minutes, please. >> did donald trump apologize for taking after somebody in a twitter war and making fun of her weight? did he apologize for saying african-americans are living in hell? did he apologize for saying president obama was not even a citizen of the united states? you will look in vain to see donald trump ever taking responsibility for anybody and apologize. immigration. there's two plans on the table. hillary and i believe in comprehensive immigration reform. donald trump believes in deportation nation. you've got to pick your choice. hillary and i want a bipartisan reform that will put keeping families together as the top goal second, that will help focus enforcement efforts on those that are violent. third, that will do more border

control, and fourth, that will provide a path to citizenship for those who work hard and play by the rules and take criminal background checks. that's our proposal. donald trump proposes to deport 16 million people. 11 million who are here without documents. and both donald trump and mike pence want to get rid of birth wrig birthright citizenship. so if you're born here but your parents don't have documents, they want to eliminate that, that's another 4 1/2 million people. these guys have said. deportation force. they want to go house to house, school to school, business to business, and kick out 16 million people. >> that's nonsense. >> and i cannot believe that governor pence would sit here and defend his running mate's claim that we should create a deportation force so that they'll all be gone. >> senator, we have a deportation force, it's called i.c.e. and they endorsed donald trump to be -- >> so you like the 16 million deportation --

>> senator, that's nonsense. look, what you just heard is they have a plan for open borders, amnesty, that's -- >> our plan is like ronald reagan's plan from 1986. >> they call it comprehensive immigration reform on capitol hill. we all know the routine. it's amnesty. and you heard one of the last things you mentioned was border security. that's how washington always plays it. >> no, i -- >> governor -- >> -- three years ago and governor pence was against it. >> governor, mr. trump has said -- >> -- is not a nation. donald trump is committed to securing -- >> so governor, how would these millions of undocumented immigrants leave? would they be forcibly removed? >> i think donald trump laid out a series of ideas that ends with border security. after we secure the border, not only build a wall, beneath the ground and in the air, we do internal enforcement, but he said the focus has to be on criminal aliens. we just -- we just had a conversation about law enforcement. we just had a conversation about

the violence that's besetting our cities. the reality is that there's hardbreak and tragedy that has struck american families, because people that came into this country illegally are now involved in criminal enterprise and activity, and we don't have the resources or the will to deport them systemically. donald trump has said we're going to move those people out, people who have overstaid their visas. we're going to enforce the law of this country. we're going to strengthen immigrations and customs enforcements with more resources and more personnel to be able to do that and then donald trump has made it clear, once we've done all of those things, that we're going to reform the immigration system that -- >> i just have to correct governor pence -- >> -- that's the horde thorder should do it. border security, removing criminal aliens, upholding with law, and then senator, i'll work you when you go back to the senate, i promise you. we'll work you to reform the immigration system. >> i look forward working

together in whatever capacities we serve in, but i just want to make it very, very clear, that he's trying to fuzz up what donald trump has said. when donald trump spoke in phoenix, he looked the autopsy in the eye and he said, no, we're building a wall, and we're deporting everybody. he said, quote, they will all be gone. they will all be gone. and this is one of those ones where you can just go to the tape on it and see what donald trump has said. >> he's talking about criminal aliens. >> and to add to it, and to add to it, and to add to it, we are a criminal of immigrants. mike pence and i are both descended from immigrant families. maybe some things that weren't so great were said about the irish when they came. but we've done well by absorbing immigrants and it's made our nation stronger. when donald trump says mexicans are rapists and criminals, mexican immigrants. he said about your judge, a hoosier judge, he said judge curiel was unqualified to hear a case because his parents were mexicans, i can't imagine how

you would defend that. >> gentleman, i would like to shift to the idea of terrorism. do you think the world today is a safer or more dangerous place than it was eight years ago. has the terrorist threat increased or decreased? senator kaine? >> the terrorist threat has decreased in some ways, because bin laden is dead. the terrorist threat has decreased in some ways because an iranian nuclear weapons program has stoppeded. the threat to american troops has decreased in some ways because there's not 175,000 in a dangerous part of the world. there's only 15,000. but there are other parts of the world that are challenging. let me tell you this, to beat terrorism, there's only one candidate who can do it and it's hillary clinton. remember hillary clinton was the senator from new york on 9/11. she was there at the world trade center when they were still searching for victims and survivors. that's seared on to her. the need to beat terrorism. and she's got a plan to do it. she was part of the national security team that wiped out bin laden. here's her plan to defeat isil. first, we've got to keep taking out their leaders on the

battlefield. she was part of the team that got bin laden and she will lead the team that will get abu al bark, the head of isis. we've got to disrupt their ability to recruit on the internet, in their safe havens. but fourth, we need to work with allies to share intelligence. that's the hillary clinton plan that she's got the experience to do it. donald trump. donald trump can't start a twitter war with miss universe without shooting hel ining hims foot. donald trump doesn't have a plan. he said, i have a secret plan, and then he said, um, i know more than all the generals about isil. and then he said, i'm going to call the generals to help me figure out a plan. and finally he said, i'm going to fire all the generals. he doesn't have a plan. but he does have dangerous ideas. here's fourth. he trash talks the military. the military is a disaster, john mccain's no hero, the generals need to all be fired and i know more than them. he wants to tear up alliances. nato is obsolete and we'll only work together with israel if

they pay big league. third, he loves dictators. he's got a personal mt. rushm e rushmore, vladimir putin, kim jong-un, moammar gadhafi, and saddam hussein. and last and most dangerously, donald trump believes -- >> come on. >> donald trump believes that the world will be safer if more nations have nuclear weapons. he's said saudi arabia should get them, japan should get them, korea should get them. and when he was confronted with this and told, wait a minute, terrorists could get those, proliferation could lead to nuclear war, here's what donald trump said, and i quote, go ahead, folks, enjoy yourselves. i would love to hear governor pence tell me what's so enjoyable or comicical about nuclear war. >> governor pence? >> did you work on that one a long time, because that had a lot of creative lines in it. >> i'll see if you can defend any of it. >> look, i can defend -- i can make very clear to the american people, after traveling millions of miles as our secretary of state, after being the actor is tect of the foreign policy of

this administration, america is less safe today than it was the day that barack obama became president of the united states. it's absolutely inarguable. we've weakened america's place in the world. it's been a combination of factors, but mostly a lack of leadership. i will give you, and i was in washington, d.c. on 9/11. i saw the clouds of smoke rise from the pentagon. >> i was in virginia. >> i know you were. we all lived there that day as a nation, it was heartbreaking. and i want to give this president credit for bringing osama bin laden to justice. but the truth is, osama bin laden led al qaeda. our primary threat today is isis. and because hillary clinton failed to renegotiate a status of forces agreement, that would have allowed some american combat troops to remain in iraq and secure the hard-fought gains the american soldier had won by

2009, isis was able to be literally conjured up out of the desert and it's overrun vast areas that the american soldier had won in operation iraqifaaujd he fought hard in some of the most difficult days in iraqi frame and he paid the ultimate sacrifice to defend or freedom and secure that nation and that nation was secured in 2009, but because hillary clinton and barack obama failed to provide a status of forces agreement and leave sufficient troops in there, we are back at war, the president just ordered more troops on the ground. we are back at war in iraq and scott sebowsoy's mom who would always come to memorial day and would always come see me and i would tell her we'll never

forget her son. the sacrifices they made were squandered in iraq because this administration created a vacuum in which isis was able to grow. in reference to the iranian deal that hillary clinton initiat initiated -- >> stopping a nuclear weapons program without firing a shot. >> you essentially guaranteed iran will some day become a nuclear power because there's no limitations once the period of the time of the treaty comes off. >> governor pence, mr. trump supports wanted extreme vetting from parts of the world that addressed terrorism but that does not address nightclub bombings like orlando, and new jersey. those were home-grown, committed by u.s. citizens and legal residents. what specific tools would you use to prevent those kinds of attacks? >> well, i think it's -- i think it's a great question e elaine but it really does begin with us reforming our immigration system

and putting the interest particularly the safety and security of the american people first. i mean, donald trump has called for extreme vetting for people coming in to this country so we don't bring people into the united states who are hostile to our bill of rights freedoms, who are hostile of the american way of life, but donald trump and i are committed to suspending the syrian refug refugee program an programs from areas of the world that have been compromised by tero terr terrorism. him kai tim kaine and hillary clinton want to -- >> the question was about home-grown terror. >> let's put the safety and security of the american people instead of hillary clinton. >> or instead of you violating the constitution, by blocking people on their national origin whether they're dangerous -- that's what the 70th circuit -- >> we have different views on

refugee issues on immigration. hillary and i want enforcement based on are people dangerous. these guys say all mexicans are bad and with respect to refugees, we want to keep them out if they're dangerous. donald trump said keep them out if they're muslim. mike pence said keep them out if they're from syria, and yesterday an a appealent court with three republican judges struck down the plan said and it was discriminatory. >> those judges said -- >> elaine, to your point, those judges said it's because there wasn't any evidence yet, that -- that isis had in fill rated the united states. germany just arrested three syrian refugees account that connected to isis -- >> but they told you there's right way and a wrong way to do it. >> if you're going to be critical, that's fair game. after two syrian refugees were involved in the attack of paris 9/11, as governor of the state of indian a i have no higher priority than the people asafet

security of the people of my state -- >> governor pence -- >> and if i'm vice president of the united states and donald trump is president, we're going to put the safety and security of the american people -- first. >> can we just be clear, hillary and i will do immigration enforcement and vet refugees whether or not they're dangerous, we won't discriminate you from the country you come from and the religion you are -- >> the director of the fbi or homeland security said we can't know for certain who these people are coming from syria. >> yes, we can and when we don't let them know, we don't let them in. >> the fbi and homeland security said we can't know for certain. you've got to err on the safety and security of the american people, senator. >> by trashing all muslims? >> senator kaine, let me ask you this, secretary clinton has talked about an intelligence surge. >> yes. >> what exactly would an

intelligence surge look like and how would that help identify terrorists with no operational connection to a foreign terrorist organization? >> intelligence is two thirds, first, it's dramatically expanding our intelligence capacities by hiring great professionals but also we've got some of the best intel and cyber employees in the world in the united states working for many of the private sect seor compan so involves work increase, and some of the partnerships in the intel partnerships in the private sector so we can with constitutional principles, gather more intelligence, but the secretary piece ond piece i really important, it also means creating stronger intelligence. you gather intelligence and share your intelligence back and forth with allies and that's who you may be finding trying to recruit, coming to one country or the next. alliances are critical. that's why donald trump's claim that he wants to -- that nato is obsolete and we need to get rid

of nato is so dangerous. >> that's not his plan. >> he said nato is obsolete, and if you put aside -- push aside your alliances, who you are going to share intelligence with? hillary clinton is the secretary of state who knows how to build alliances. she built the sanctions regime around the world that stopped the iranian intelligence program. >> i'd like to turn to the tragedy in syria -- can i speak about the cyber security surge at all? >> you can have 30 seconds, governor, quickly, please. >> i -- first, donald trump just spoke about this issue this week. we have got to bring together the best resource this is country to understand that cyber warfare is the new warfare of the assemetiymetrical enemies a look forward if i'm privileged to work with you in the senate to make sure we resource that effort. >> we'll work together in whatever roles we have to. >> we have an intelligence, sir, but i will also tell you it's

important in this moment to remember that hillary clinton had a private server in her home that had classified information on it -- >> 30 seconds is on up. >> drone drastrikes, e-mails fr the united states -- >> i'd like to ask you about syria. you've now had a minute. >> 2 t-- thousan >> the investigation concluded not one prosecutor would take the step. you don't get the decide the rights and wrongs of this. we have a justice system and the fbi director conclude audio. >> we are moving. 250,000 people, 100,000 of them children. >> that is absolutely false -- >> gentlemen, please -- >> the fbi did an investigation -- >> gentlemen? senator kaine, governor pence,

please. i want to turn now to syria. 250,000 people, 100,000 people are under siege in syria. bunker buster bombs, and in sindia bombs are being dropped on by militaries. does the u.s. have a responsibility to protect civilians and prevent mass kaz ult ul casualti casualties? >> the united states of america needs to exercise strong leadership to protect the vol nur able citizens in over 100,000 children in aleppo. the russian reset. after the russian reset, the russians tooker is dictating

terms to all the united states of america, the greatest nation on earth, just withdraws from talks about a ceasefire while vladimir putin puts a missile defense system in syria while her marshals the forces and begin -- look, we have got to begin to lean into this with strong, broad how o-shouldered americans and begins by rebuilding our military and the russians and the chinese have been making enormous investments in the military. we have the smallest navy since 1916, and the lowest number of troops since the end of the second world war. we've got to work with congress and donald trump will, to rebuild our military and project american strength in the world, but about aleppo and about syria, i truly do believe that what america ought to do right now is immediately establish safe zones so families with children with move out of those areas, work with our arab partners, real time, right now, to make that happen, and secondly, i just have to tell

you that provocations by russia need to be met with american strength. and if russia chooses to be involved and continue, i should say to be involved in this barbaric attack on aleppo, the united states of america should use military force to strike the targets of the assass regid regd preventaleppo. we ought to deploy a missile defense she would to the czech republic, hillary clinton pulled back out on -- >> governor your time is us. >> we've got to have american strength when donald trump becomes president of the united states, the russians and other countries of the world will know they're dealing with a strong american president. >> senator kaine? >> hillary and i also agree the establishment of humanitarian zones in northern syria with the provision of international human

aide, consistent with the resolution that was passed in 2014 would be a very, very good idea, and hillary also has the ability to stand up to russia in a way this ticket does not. donald trump, again and again, has praised vladimir putin and it's clear that he has business dealings with russian orlanliga who are related to putin, with pro-putin forces, governor pence made the odd claim, he said in arguably, vladimir putin is a better leader than president obama. vladimir putin ran his people into the ground, and he persecutes lgbt and journalists. if you don't know the difference between dictator ship and leadership then you have to go back to a fifth grade civics class. i'll tell what you offends me -- >> that offended me. >> governor pence just said donald trump will rebuild the military. no, he won't. donald trump is avoiding paying

taxes. the "new york times" story -- and we need to get this -- but the "new york times" suggested he probably didn't pay taxes for about eight yea18 years start i including the years of 9/11, so get this, on 9/11, hillary clinton and donald trump's hometown was attacked by the worst terrorist attack in the history of the united states. young men and women -- young men and women signed up to serve in the military to fight terrorism. hillary clinton went to washington to get funds to rebuild her city, and protect first responders but donald trump was fighting a very different fight. it was a fight to avoid paying taxes that he won't support the fight against terror. >> the question was about aleppo. >> he wouldn't support -- this is important, elaine. when a guy running for president will not support the troops, not support veterans, not support teachers, that's really important. and i bodisaid did aleppo, we h

to create a humanitarian zone in northern syria, it's very important. >> governor pence you mentioned no-fly zone. where would you propose setting up a safe zone specifically? how would you keep it safe? >> first and foremost, donald trump supports our are troops. donald trump supports our veterans. >> he won't pay taxes. >> donald trump has paid all the taxes that he's -- do you not take deductions? >> this is about syria. >> honestly, senator. >> it is about our troops. >> i understand why you want to change the subject. and let me be very clear on this russian thing, the larger question -- >> gentlemen, we're going to have time to get to russia. >> what we're dealing with is the -- you know there's an old proverb that says the russian bear never dies it just hibernates and the truth of the matter is the weak policy of hillary clinton and president obama has awakened an aggression that appear aid few years ago with their move into georgia,

now into kri mea, and now we fod our arms and say we're not having talks any more. to answer your question we just need american strength. we need to -- we need to marshall the resources of our allies and the region and end the immediate. we need to act and act now to get people out of harm's way. >> and exactly how would those safe zones work? how would they remain safe? >> the safe zones would have to be -- as senator said, there's already a framework for this that's been recognized by the international community, but the united states of america needs to be prepared to work with our allies in the region to create a route for safe passage and to protect people in those areas, including with the no-fly zone. but look this is very tough stuff. i served on the foreign affairs committee for a decade. i traveled in and out of that region for ten years and saw what the american soldier won in operation iraqi freedom and to see the weak and effectless

hillary clinton was the architect of. >> let me talk about the things governor pence doesn't want to okay kno acknowledge. >> he doesn't want to acknowledge that hillary was part of a team that got bin laden. he doesn't want to acknowledge that it's a good thing -- >> i just did -- >> that it's a good thing, not a bad thing, we're down from 175,000 troops deployed to 15,000. let me tell you what will really make the middle east dangerous. donald trump's idea that more nations should get nuclear weapons, sued audi abrainia. he said the problem with nuclear proliferation is some fool or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event and i think that's who governor pence's running mate is, who governor reagan warned us of. >> that was beneath and you hillary clinton. that was pretty low.

>> do you think we should have more nuclear weapons in the world will make us safer? >> senator, the -- >> that's what donald trump thinks. >> ronald reagan also said nuclear war should never be fought because it can never be won and the united states of america needs to make investmen investmen investments modernizing -- >> you c assurance to our allies. let me go back to this iran thing. he keeps saying hillary clinton who started the deal with the iran ar iranians preprevent audio. >> that's what the joint chiefs of staff is says right now. >> that's not what israel thinks -- >> you can go check it. go to the -- >> i know you boycotted prime minister netanyahu's speech. the point of this so-called iran deal was essentially guarantee -- when i was in

congress i fought hard on a bipartisan basis with republican and democrat members to move forward the toughest sanctions. it literally in the history of the united states, against -- >> and hillary used them to get a deal. >> we were bringing them to heal but the goal was always that we would only lift sanctions if iran permanently renounced their nuclear a.m. bambitions -- >> elaine let me finish. >> they have n-- there's no limitation -- >> $1.7 billion in a ransom payment. >> six times tonight i have said to governor pence i can't imagine how you can defend your running mate's position on one issue after the next and in all six cases he's refew used defen- >> don't put words in my mouth. >> and yet he's asking everybody to vote for somebody that he cannot defend, and i just think that should be underlined. >> gentlemen, let's talk about russia.

this is the topic that has come up. i'll give you an opportunity to do that. >> ail take them one at a time. >> more nations should get nuclear weapons. >> he never said that, senator. >> he has absolutely said it. saudi arabia, japan. >> russia. russia and vladimir putin invaded ukraine, and annexed krimea. what steps if any would your administration take if any to counter these actions senator kaine? >> you've got to be tough on russia. let's start by not praising vladimir putin as a great leader. donald trump and mike pence have said he's a great leader. >> no, we haven't. >> and donald trump has business dealings -- has business dealings with russia that he refuses to disclose. hillary clinton has gone toe to toe with russia. she went toe to toe as secretary of state to do the new start agreement, to reduce russia's nuclear stock tipile. he went toe to toe with russia

and lodged protests when we went -- and we've put punishing economic safrgzs pgs on russia need to continue. donald trump was on a tv show a couple months back and he said i'll guarantee you this, russ russia's not going into the ukraine and he had to be reminded they had gone into the krimea, she's gone toe to toe with russia, to cap iran's nuclear weapons program and she stood up to them oshs such as syria, and their invasion of georgia. you've got to have the ability to do that and hillary does. on the other hand, and donald trump you have somebody who praises vladimir putin all the time. america should really wonder about a president trump, who had a campaign manager with ties to p putin, pro-putin elements in the

ukraine who had to be fired for that reason. they should wonder when donald trump is sitting down with vladimir putin, is it going to be america's bottom line, or trump's bottom line he's going to be worried about with all of his business dealings. this would be solved if donald trump would release his tax returns as he's told the american public. and i know he's laughing at this -- >> what's it got to be with russia? >> every president since richard nixon has done it and donald trump has said i'm doing business with russian. the only way the american public will tell if he has conflict of interest. >> your time is up. >> thanks. i'm just trying to keep up with the insult-driven campaign. >> i'm just saying facts about your running mate. >> senator this is the governor's two minutes. >> don't put worlds in my mouth that i'm not defending him. >> you're not. >> i'm happy to defend him. most of what you said is completely false and the american people know that. i'll run through the list of things. >> senator, this is governor

pence's two minutes. >> look, this is the alternative universe of washington, d.c. versus reality. hillary clinton said her number one priority was a reset with russia. that reset resulted in the invasion of ukraine. after they'd in fifiltrated, lie green mean, and then they moved all the way into crimea, took over the crimean pence lampt donald tru peninsula. the truth of the matter is, that what you have in the rise of aggressive recollectionia, which has increased its influence in iran, and now because of this deal s on a pathway in the future to obtain a nuclear -- the leading state sponsor of terror in the world in iran, now has a closer working relationship with russia because of hillary clinton and barack obama's foreign policy and

$150 billion, and sanctions all being lifted and of course syria, it really is extraordinary, that syria is imploding. you just asked a very thoughtful question about the disaster in aleppo. isis is headquartered in raqqa. said -- isis from raqqa has everyrun vast areas that have great sacrificed the american soldier won in operation iraqi freedom and yet senator kaine still sits here, loyal soldier i get all that, in saying that foreign policy of hillary clinton and barack obama somehow made the world more secure. it really is astonishing -- >> we've wiped out the leader of al-qaeda. >> on the day iran released four american hostages, we delivered $400 million in cash as a ransom payment for americans held by the radical mullahs in tehtehra >> put in has quote no respect

for hillary clinton and obama. why do you think he'll respect a pence administration? >> donald trump, that's nonsense. donald trump -- >> donald trump's son says the trump organization -- >> please, senator i'll give you a chance to respond. >> we're going to rebuild our military. and this whole putin thing. look, america is stronger than russia. our economy is 16 times larngge than the russian economy. america's political system is superior to the crony corrupt cap pal system in russia in every way. when donald trump and i observe that as i've said in syria in iran, in ukraine, that the small and bullying leader of russia has been stronger on the world stage than this administration, that's stating painful facts. that's not an endorsement of vladimir putin. that's an indicted of the week and effectless leadership of

hillary clinton and barack obama. >> this is where you go to the tape on it. governor pence said in arguably, vladimir putin is a better leader than president obama. >> that is absolutely inaccurate. >> and -- and i just think a guy -- >> he said he's been stronger on the world stage -- >> no, you said leader. and i'll just say, this governor, if you just -- >> you just said better. >> if you mistake leadership for dictator sh dictatorship and you can't tell the difference, the country that's running its economy -- >> this is crazy. >> if you can't tell the difference, you shouldn't be commander in chief and donald trump's sons say they have all these business dealings with russia. those could be disclosed with tax returns but they refuse to do them. americans need to worry about whether donald trump will be watching out for america's only bottom line or his own bottom line. >> senator kaine what went wrong with the russia reset? >> vladimir putin is a dictator. >> and what would do you

differently? >> salvladimir putin is a dicta. he's not a leader. anybody who thinks otherwise doesn't know russian history or salvladimir putin. this guy kno hillary clinton knows exactly who this guy is. so how do you deal with him? we do have to deal with russia in a lot of different ways. there are areas we can cooperate. so it was hillary clinton who worked with russia on the new start treat ty to reduce their nuclear weapons stock pipile. it was hillary clinton to stop the iranian nuclear weapons program without a shot. she knows how to sit down at a table and negotiate tough deals. this is a very challenging part of the world and we ought to have a commander in chief who is prepared and done it rather than somebody who goes around praising vladimir putin as a great leader. >> i'd like to and about north korea, iran and the threat of nuclear weapons.

north korea recently conducted its fifth and most powerful nuclear test. >> right. >> what specific steps would you take to prevent north korea from developing a nuclear armed missile capable of reaching the united states? governor pence? >> first, we need to -- we need to make a commitment to rebuild our military including modernizing our nuclear forces. and we also need -- we also need an effective american diplomacy that'll marshall the resources of nations in the asian pacific rim to put pressure on north korea, on kim jong-un, to abandon his nuclear envisions. it has to remain the policy of the united states of america, the denuclearization of the korea peninsula, plain and simple. and when donald trump is president of the united states, we are -- we're not going to have the -- the kind of posture in the world that has russia invading crimea and ukraine, that has chinese building new

islands in the south china sea, that has literally the world including north korea flauting american power. we're going to -- we're going to go back to the days of peace through strength. but i have to tell you, all this talk about tax returns and i get t you know you want to keep bringing that up. it must have -- hillary clinton and her husband set up a private foundation called the clinton foundation. while she was secretary of state, the clinton foundation accepted tens of millions of dollars from foreign governments and foreign donors. now y'all need to know out there, this is basic stuff, foreign donors and certainly foreign governments cannot participate in the american political process. they cannot make financial contributions, but the clintons figured out a way to create a foundation where foreign governments and foreign donors could donate millions of dollars and then we found, thanks to the

good work of the "associated press," more than half her private meetings when she was secretary of state were given to major donors of the clinton foundation. when you talk about all of these baseless rumors about russia and the rest, hillary clinton -- you and the trustworthy question at the very beginning -- >> governor, your -- >> -- they're looking at the pay to pay politics she operated with the clinton foundation through the private server. >> your two minutes are up. senator kaine. >> i'll talk about the foundation then all talk about north korea. so on the foundation. i am glad to talk about the found d foundation. the clinton foundation is one of the highest-rated charities in the world. it provides aids drugs to about 11 million people, and helps americans deal with opoid overdoses and gets higher rankings then the american rod cross does. the clinton foundation does an awful lot of hard work. hillary clinton as secretary of state took no action to benefit

the state department, they did an investigation and they concluded everything hillary clinton did as secretary of state was completely in the interest of the united states. so the foundation does good work, and hillary clinton, secretary of state, acted in the interest of the united states, but let's compare this with the trump organization and the trump foundation. the trump organization is an oct pus-like organization with tentacles all over the world whose conflict of interest could only be known if donald trump would release his tax returns. he's refused do it. his sons have said that organization has a lot of business dealings in russia and remember the trump organization is not a non-profit. it's putting money into trump's pockets and into the pockets of his children, whereas the clinton foundation is a non-profit and no clinton family member draws any salary. >> the trump foundation is nonprofit. >> in addition, donald trump has a foundation. the foundation was just fined for illegally contributing

foundation dollars to a political campaign of a florida attorney general. they made an illegal contribution, and then they tried to hide it by disguising it to somebody else and the person they donated to was somebody whose office was charged with investigating trump university. this is the difference between a foundation that does good work and a secretary of state who acted in accord with american interest and somebody who is conflicted and doing work around the world and won't share with the american public what he's doing and what those conflicts are. >> governor i will give you 30 seconds to respond because i know you want to, but again i would remind you both this was about north korea. [ laughter ] >> thank you. thank you. the trump foundation is a private-family foundation. they give virtually every cent to charitable cautions. less than ten secents on the dollar. >> $20,000 to go to a on picture of trump.

>> 90%. >> it has been a flplatform for the clintons to travel the world, to have staff, but honestly, senator, we would know a lot more about it if hillary clinton would turn over the 33,000 e-mails that she refused turn over -- >> senator kaine. >> -- her private server. >> senator kaine if you had intelligence north korea was about to launch a missile, a nuclear-armed missile capable of reec reaching the united states, would you take preemptive action? >> a president should take action to defend the united states against eminent threat. you have want to the president has to do that. now exactly what action? you would have to determine what your intelligence was, how certain you were of that intelligence, but you would have to take action. you asked the question about how do we deal with north korea. i'm on the foreign relations committee and we did a sanctions

package often chinnal ua will v package like that. they're starting to get worried about north korea, too so they supported the sanctions package, everyone though many. sanctions ais are against chinee firms. china is another one of those relationship where is it's competitive, it's also challenging, and in times like north korea we have to be able to cooperate. hillary understands that very well. she went once famously and stood up at a human rights meeting and said women's rights are human rights. they didn't want her to say that but she did, but she's also worked on a lot of diplomatic and important deals with china and that's what it's going to take. they it's thing i would worry a little bit about is donald trump owes about $650 million to banks including the bank of china. i'm not sure he could stand up so tough to the people who have loaned him money. >> all right.

i'd like to turn to the next segment and i'd like that to focus social issues. you have both been open about the role that faith has played in your lives. you can discuss in detail a time when you struggled to balance your personal faith and public policy position, senator kaine? >> yeah, that's an easy one for me, elaine. it's an easy one. i grew up in a wonderful household with great catholic parents. my mom and dad are here. i was educated by jesuitjesuits. i worked with jesuit missionaries in honduras, now nearly 35 years ago and they were the heroes of my life. i try to practice my religion in a very devout way and follow the teachings of my church in my own personal life but i don't believe in this nation, a first amendment nation where we don't raise any religion over the other and we allow people to worship they please, the doctrines of any one ril ijirel

be mandated. against the death penalty and cathcliolic churches, so am i a the state law said there was death penalties if the jury determined them to be heinous so i had i had to grapple that. when i was running for governor i was attacked pretty strongly because of my position over the death penalty. i looked the votese in the eye and i said this is my religion. i'm not going to change my religious practice, but i will uphold the law if you elect me. i was elected and i did. it was very, very difficult to allow executions to go forward but in circumstances where i didn't feel like there was a case for clemmen sency, i told virginia voters i would uphold the law and i did. that was a real struggle, but it's really important those of us who have deal-faith lives

don't feel we could substitute our own views for everybody else in society regardless of their views. >> governor pence? >> it's a wonderful question, and my christian faith is at the very heart of who i am. i was also raised in a wonderful family of faith. it was church on sunday morning and grace before dinner but my christian faith became real for me when i made a personal decision for christ when i was a freshman in college, and i've tried to live that out however perfectly every day of my life since, and with my wife at my side, we've followed a calling in the public service where we've tried to keep faith with values that we cher skpish with regard to when i struggle, i appreciate and -- and -- i have a great deal of respect for senator kaine's sincere faith, i truly do, but i would tell you

that for me the sanctity proceeds out of the belief anxiecient principal where god d before you were formed in the womb i knew you, so i sought to stand with great compassion with the sanctity of life and the state of indiana sought to expand healthcare for women, and i'm pleased into the fact we're well on our way to becoming the most pro-adoption state in america. you should be pro-life, and pro adoption. now hillary clinton and senator kaine at her side is to support a practice like partial-birth abortion, to hold to the view -- and i know senator kaine, you hold pro-life views personally, but the very idea that a child that is almost born into the world could still have their

life taken from them is just an efine m, t efinent, and i can't talk about a party that supports that and i know you've opposed taxpayer funding of abortion, but hillary clinton wants to extend the portion of the law where we said we wouldn't use taxpayer money for abortion. i try to spend a little bit of time on my knees every day, but begins with cherishing the worth, the dignity, the value of every human life. >> elaine this is a fundamental question, a fundamental question. hillary and i are both people out of religious backgrounds, from methodist church experience was really formative for her as a public servant, but we really feel like you should live fully and with enthusiasm, the commands of your faith, but it is not the role of the public servant to mandate that for everybody else.

so let's talk about abortion and choice. let's talk about them. we support rowe versus wade. we support the constitutional right of american women to consult their own conscious, their own support of partner, their own minister, and make their own decision about pregnancy. that's something we trust american women to do that. and we don't think that women should be punished as donald trump said they should, for making the decision to have an abortion. governor pence wants to repeal rowe versus wade and wants to put it on the ash heap of history, and we have some young people who weren't even born yet. before rowe versus wade, states could pass laws to punish women if they made the choice to terminate a pregnancy. i think you should live your moral values, but the last thing, the very last thing, the government should do is have

laws that would punish women who make reproductive choices and that is the fundamental difference between a clinton/kaine ticket and a trump/pence ticket. >> it's really not. donald trump and i would never support legislation that punished women who made the heart-breaking choice to end a pregnancy. >> then why did donald trump say that? >> we just never would? why did he say that? >> he's not a polished politician like and you hillary clinton. >> i would admit that's not always a polished thought. >> i'm telling you the. >> from the fullness of the heart, the mouth speaks. >> yeah. >> when donald trump says women should be punished or mexicans are rapists and criminals. >> i'm telling you. >> i'm john mccain's not a hero, he's showing you who he is. >> senator, you whipped out that mexican thing again. he -- look --

>> you can defend it? >> there are criminal aliens, and perpetrating crimes against america americans. and he said many of them are good people. you keep leaving that out of your quote. if you want to go there, i'll go there. but it is a choice and a choice on life. i couldn't be more proud to be standing with donald trump, who is standing for the right to life. it's a principle senator kaine -- and i'm very gentle because i do embrace you -- it's a principle that you embrace and i support the fact you supported the hyde amendment, which bands funding for abortion in the past, but that's not hillary clinton's view. people need to understand we can come together as a nation and create a culture of life. more and more young people are embracing life because we know we are -- we're better for it. we can -- like mother teresa said