>> there are criminal aliens, and perpetrating crimes against america americans. and he said many of them are good people. you keep leaving that out of your quote. if you want to go there, i'll go there. but it is a choice and a choice on life. i couldn't be more proud to be standing with donald trump, who is standing for the right to life. it's a principle senator kaine -- and i'm very gentle because i do embrace you -- it's a principle that you embrace and i support the fact you supported the hyde amendment, which bands funding for abortion in the past, but that's not hillary clinton's view. people need to understand we can come together as a nation and create a culture of life. more and more young people are embracing life because we know we are -- we're better for it. we can -- like mother teresa said at the famous national prayer breakfast --

>> this is important -- >> let's welcome so many children into the world. families that can't have children can adopt more readily those children -- >> why don't you trust women to make this choice for themselves? we can encourage people to support life, of course we can, but why don't you trust women? why doesn't donald trump trust women? to make this choice for themselves? that's what we ought to be doing in public life. living our lives of faith or motivation with enthusiasm and excite, convincing each other, dialoguing with each other about important moral issues of the day, but on fundamental issues of morality, we should let women make their own decisions. >> society can be judged by how it deals with its most you'll have vulnerable, i couldn't be more proud to be standing with a pro-life candidate in donald trump. >> i do have one final question for you both tonight. it has been a divisive campaign.

senator kaine f your ticket wins, what specifically are you going to do to unify the country and reassure the people who voted against you? >> that's a really important one that. may be the $64,000 question, because it has been a divisive campaign and again, hillary is running a campaign about stronger together, and donald trump -- and this is -- this is not directed at this man, except to the extent he can't defend donald trump, donald trump has run a campaign that's been about one insult after the next but we have to bring the country together. so here's what we'll do. hillary clinton was first lady, then senator for eight years and secretary of state, and i served in the senate and i'm really amazed amaze, elaine, when i talk to senators how well they regard hillary clinton. she was on the armed services committee, she wassor on other committees. she passed the chip program so eight million children have

healthcare, including 150,000 in indiana. she worked across the aisle after 9/11 to get health benefits for the first responders who bravely went into the towers and into the pentagon. she worked to get benefits for tricare for national guard members including hoosiers and virginians in the national guard. she has a track record of working across the i'aisle. in the senator, i have good working relationships across the aisle, because i think it's fine to be a democrat or republican, or independent, but after election day, the goal is work together and hillary clinton has a track record of accomplishment across the aisle that'll enable her to do just that when we work with the new congress in january che . >> governor how will you unify the country if you win? >> thank you elaine and thank you for a great discussion tonight. >> absolutely. >> thank you, senator. >> this is a very challenging time in the life of our nation.

weakened america's place in the world after the leadership of hillary clinton and barack obama, the world stage has been followed by an economy that is truly struggling, stifled by an avalanche of more taxes, more regulations, obamacare, the war on coal and the kind of trade deals that put american workers in the back seat. i think the best way we can bring people together is through change in washington, d.c. you know, i served in washington dd conside dc in the congress of the united states, and i served with many republicans and democrats, men and women of good will. the potential is there to change the direction of this country, but it's going to take lead leadership do it. the american people want to see our nation standing tall on the world stage again and want to see us supporting our military, rebuilding our buimilitary, commanding the respect of the world and they want to see the american economy off to the

races again. they want to see an american comeback, and donald trump's entire career has been about building, it's been about -- it's going through hardship just like a business person does, and finding a way through smarts and ingenuity and reiance to fight yard. when you hear him say he wants to make america great again, when we do that i truly do believe the american people are going to be standing taller, they're going to see real change can happen after decades of just talking about it and when that happens the american people are going to stand tall, stand together and we'll have the kind of unity that's been missing for way too long. >> all right, gentlemen, thank you so much. this concludes the vice president of a debate. my thanks to the candidates, the commission, and to you for watching. please tune in this sunday for the second presidential debate at washington university in st. louis and the final debate on october 19th at the university of nevada las vegas.

from farmville, virginia, i'm elaine quijano of krcbs news, gd night. and that's it. they're debate -- they're shaking hands. they've been called the nice guys on the respective ticket, but it wwasn't mr. nice guy all time. governor pence, senator kaine really going after each other, trying to defend their respective running mates. certainly that came through. jake, this was a lot more heated than a lot of us expected, but do you think either of these guys really got anywhere? >> three thoughts, wolf,styleisr pence is more accomplished, senator kaine interrupted a lot more and i think you have to give just on style, not on substance, to governor pence. second of all, this is a change

election, and what governor pension w pence was discussing was change and senator kaine was in the position of having to defend terrorism strategy, having to defend economic hardship, and i think that put senator kaine in a more awkward position, so again when, it came to the broad-brush strokes of what they were discussing in their overall themes, governor pence was talking about change and it's a change election. but there's big however here. the big however is this is a change election and the reason that donald trump is not up 15 points is because of concerns that voters have about things that he's said and things that he has done. and tim kaine decided to make this strategy, his debate strategy, to talk about donald trump and things that donald trump has said and done, and over and over governor pence refused or declined to dervfend the things that kaine, tim kaine, quite accurately said for the most part donald trump had said or done. on the stage you have to give it

to governor pence. i wonder what the media coverage is going to be like over the next day or two as people go over and over and the people in the media, things that tim kaine said, donald trump said he said, when he did for the most part, and mike pence declined to defend him. so, i think the night goes to pence, but i don't know about the week. wolf? >> all right, jake. dan what w dana what was your catakeaway? >> mike pence tried to avoid over, and over again, not taking the bait, which made him kind of the yin to donald trump's yang. mike pence prepared enormously and that came across. he stayed calm and he refused what tim kaine was trying to get him to do. he looked into the camera to try to connect with people at home, and so the idea though in the question is will it matter in the end? will he bring voters along for

the trump-pence ticket? maybe just maybe people who are on the fence, maybe people going for trump look at mike pence and say maybe they have him around. it's possible. tim kaine, was clear on talking points pence called him out on, then he got better. he got more which comfortable. the question there was kaine was trying to energize the base, which hillary clinton needs desperately. that appeared to be no question, his goal s to get people excited again, and even more excited about the clinton-kaine ticket. >> a lot of things are add odds what donald trump said on the campaign trail. at times especially how do you talk about vladimir putin, what would you do in syria, what governor pence was saying either was at odds trump said or things donald trump never said. he was just saying -- giving

much more details in policy that we don't hear from donald trump want to jake's point about style, remember a governor pence has been around while and does a lot of interviews and does a former radio talk show host. one of the reasons hillary clinton has moved up is more enthusiasm among democrats after the debate. i do think this will reenergize republicans. after president obama lost in 2012, biden came in, gave an energetic performance to the democrats. my other, there's republican in this case, you know because he talked about smaller government, he talked about less regulation, he talked about shrinking washington. he talks like a conservative. donald trump does not communicate like a conservative, a lot of republicans saying we wish that was our candidate. >> we got results of a focus group of undecided voters.

we're going to share the results and also an instant poll, we're going to get the people who wwh. >> we have our panel of experts so let's get their immediate reaction to this vice presidential face off. gloria borger, what did you think? >> i think mike pence is better at attacking clinton that be he is at defending donald trump. there were so many times, that he was pushed by tim kaine, who said it over and over again, i can't imagine how you can defend donald trump. it was almost the new lockbox of this debate and pence didn't. every time he was sort of pushed, would you defend, would you defend. there were a couple times maybe he did on russia, but generally what he did was he tried to flip it because he couldn't defend some of the things that donald trump has said and i think they realized in their debate prep, it was clear they were prepared for this, that they weren't going to take the debate.

it's easier to get under trump's skin than it is to get under mike pence's skin and i think kaine found that tonight because he kept interrupting as dana was saying. he seemed a little overeager and overprepared at the beginning of the debate, but he kept coming back to this and we'll just have to see if it's effective with our focus groups but i think pence did a very good job given the difficulty he would have answering these kaine assaults about donald trump, but i would also have to say that kaine, in saying this is what donald trump said, and reminding viewers, this is what he said, this is what he said, this is what he said, how you can defend it, and pe pence not defending it also made his point. >> david? >> you know, i think that tim kaine was asked to play a role here that he isn't particularly comfortable with. tim kaine is a very positive, ebolient character and is asked to be an attack dog here and i

think he wasn't entirely comfortable in that role and the strategy of interrupting was probably overdone. mike pence, style listically, i would point out, on the substance of some of these issues, i thought pence was very muskslar in the foreign policy debate, although he seemed to depart from donald trump in big ways including his approach to putin. there were other issues on guns, on abortion, on immigration in which kaine did very well and at the end of the debate it was an extraordinary exchange i thought -- or one of the better exchanges i've seen in debates in which each of them discussed the issue of abortion, both men of faith, but tim kaine articulated a widely-held view and pence stuck to his view,

which will zexhilitate his because, but may exacerbate if you're trying to win overwhelm. >> me a maalia-maalik a. >> and who knows how long they stayed and listened to those discussions. i spoke to democrats who think kaine was aggressive. i do think he was over prepped in the beginning, and kaine was sort of, you know, tossing out a lot of lines, and then pence actually said at one point, there you go again, barring of course a line from ronald reagan, but it was clear he had a plan, to talk about hillary clinton's record, to talk about hillary clinton's plan in detail. i mean, at points he would say we have a five-point plan, we have a two-point plan and to talk about donald trump's record, to talk about taxes and temperament. he did score for democrats but i do think pence did do things donald trump didn't do, which

was mention the clinton foundation, to kind of reframe the putin discussion as you were talking talking about. he was very conversational, he was very calm and republicans are going to be happy with that display tonight. i think the question is what happens tomorrow, what does donald trump say, whatever kind of gains that had been made tonight, can donald trump keep that message that comes out of the night. >> michael smerconish? >> i think there was nothing tim kaine needs to be embarrassed, but largely for reasons you alluded to, i'll give it to mike pence. i think mike pence is a general better election candidate thran donald trump. he has better answers on the e-mail and can prevent those issues that can grow the tent and not stay limited to the base. one added footnote i didn't like the pace of the debate. i didn't like the first 30

minutes. they weren't ten minute pods. i wish they could go at it on some substantive issues and felt the opposite as the evening pro progressed but it was mike pence's night. >> pamela what did they think? >> i'm here with 28 undecided voters and i want to get the response here, who was the clear winner? tim kaine, rise your hand if you think tim kaine was the clear winner. all right. mike pence, raise your hand if you think he was, and raise your hand if you don't think there was a clear winner. all right. so as you see, jake, this group right here thinks that tim kaine was the winner tonight. coming up we're going to talk about why they think that and more reactions to the moments during the debate. back to you. >> all right, pamela, thank you. we should remind our viewers no to the say tim kaine didn't have a good night, but tim kaine was the former governor of richmond and currently senator from

virginia, so many of those people probably voted for him before. gloria borger, your reaction? >> look, i agree with you, i think that however, when you look at this debate, where you -- you know, tim kaine did a good job for democratic voters. i don't think there's anything that tim kaine did that's going to dissuade anyone from voting for hillary clinton. and he took the case to mike pence. mike pence did not argue robustly on lots of things as he could have done, however, pence was smooth, pence was -- you could not ruffle pence at all, and pence was conservative, and if you were conservative and you were watching this debate you're saying to yourself, why haven't i heard donald trump talk about life this way, the issue of abortion? why haven't i heard donald trump talk about putin, or russia this

way? why haven't i heard donald trump talk about the middle east in fact this way? so i think that pence may have helped trump to a degree, by helping him sort of broaden his base a little bit with those sort of doubting conservatives. >> these debates are not tag team affairs. it's not like donald trump can tag mike pence and ask him to tumble on the to the stage if he starts to flank and many of the things pence said in debate will be subject to fact checking because the gulf between what he said and what donald trump said is really enormous and i think pence at the end of the day, we may look back and say mike pence served himself beater than he served donald trump. >> i agree with you. he didn't go out of his way to defend donald trump when he couldn't. he just turned the topic to

hillary clinton, who he could is attack and that was clear strategy going on and i think he execute today. or he shook his head. >> he denied putin, or donald trump sent those things in some instances, and i think the record will reflect that kaine was accurate in some of the things he described donald trump as saying. >> abortion at the top of the list. maybe i'll be second guess, but i have a pretty distinct recollection of donald trump absolutely entertaining the notion that women would be punished if in fact they had a bo bortions, and when it came to pence, that's not what he said. we'll find out by morning. >> kaine kept insisting and he said he's not a seasoned politician like and you hillary clinton. >> should you be a polished politician to know what your issue is on an issue like abortion? i thought that was a terrible answer for pence to offer. i think on that one, there were times when i thought he had kaine on the run in this debate, on that one, i thought he lost

in that exchange in a way that was really significant. >> so if you think they both did well for their respective bases, tim kaine reassured democrats prosecuted donald trump, mike pence, making a strong case for conservati conservatism, perhaps stronger than donald trump is able to make as a recent convert to conservati conservatism. what about the ten% to 15% of the voters who don't have an allegiance? >> i'm not sure this moves the needle particularly. you've got the debate sunday night, all eyes are on the two candidates so as we were saying before the debate, vice presidential debates generally don't move the needs. that's probably the case tonight, however, if you were looking for some reassurance, if you're one of those republican women who out -- in the suburbs of philadelphia, who are looking for reassurance there is somebody who is more temperate

than donald trump on the ticket, maybe you got that kind of re reassurance in style and tone from mike pence who was very cool tonight and maybe, i just -- we have no way of knowing. >> the most important part of the audience tonight is donald trump. one person. was he watching carefully, the way mike pence prosecuted the case for their ticket, because frankly i think this is the path trump needs to take come sunday night in st. louis. >> just to ignore the criticisms and make his case. >> to be unflappable, to let things, to just shrug things off if they were accurate when they were said, but to maintain composure. >> just remember sunday night is a completely different event. >> it's a town hall. >> the real test is can he do it. he hasn't related to the person in front of him in a way that

connotes -- >> hillary clinton is good at town halls. >> jeffrey, what did you think? >> i thought mike pence was rertire terrific. it was a real home run for him. stylelisically, i was amazed as senator kaine. watch his facial expressions. this is part of the problem hillary clinton has, that democratic party has had in modern times, which is say being condescending, arrogant, filled with a sense of moral and intellectual superiority, and what was so great about it that was pence just very calmly challenged him, and when he comes out when he, kaine, comes out with all this business about race and the other things, he says you're trying to run this campaign on insults and you're accusing us of insults. he went right after him. one other point, when they were talking about donald trump being a fire president. >> you're fired in stead of

you're hired. >> right. >> we had a report earlier today on the va in phoenix, which we now have a report from the inspector general that says the place is still a mess, nothing has been done, those people would have been fired years ago if donald trump were president of the united states. >> van jones, i want to get your response. >> and should be. >> there are two sins in communicating with people. there's small sin and there's big sin. the small sin is to interrupt all the time, and kaine was guilty of that sin. but that's a small sin compared to the larger sin, which is to just lie, and what happened was you saw in real time essentially pence invent a running mate and he just lied about you know what this guy stood for. the guy that pence has as a running mate might get a bunch of votes. that guy's just not donald trump, so i think the fa

fact-checking avalanche is about to fall on the head of mike pence to erase his gains tonight. >> let's be clear -- >> i can go through the lies if you want me to. >> when you have a candidate who lied and changed her story on e-mails many times. also mike pence was the undisputed winner tonight and polls will 100% confirm that. one of the most emblematic responses is we saw insults on the part of campaign, versus solutions on the part of kaine. kaine went on to talk about miss universe, nato comments and putin, and pence took the opportunity to name a soldier, thank him for his service and h say his sacrifice has been undermined by hillary clinton. had you solutions and personal liesi izing t personalidesing this in a very real way.

>> as a strategist, these two came in with two fundamentally strategies. kim kai tim kaine said i'm going to prosecute pence. i've known him since richmond, one of the most likeable politicians i've known. he wanted to put trump on trial because he wants hillary to win the election in 2016. i saw mike pence who is also a very good guy, he's running in 2020. >> he threw trump under the bus. this is about mike pence running the primaries -- >> excuse me for talking while you're interrupting. >> he had a strategy to promote himself at the expense of hillary clinton. he went after hillary some. he didn't go after hillary. instead, he had this lovely parts where he kept talking about the conservative philosophy of limited government and that was great because we never hear it from trump. we hear it from pence because he's running in 2020.

>> you raise an interesting point because obviously that was senator kaine's strategy to prosecute donald trump and to keep on bringing up things that trump has said over the last year and change and ask him -- and governor pence to defend him and governor pence would either not defend him, thrown him under the us was your interpret tiati per piv5555 pivot and amaze thi came up. >> i can't say how you can defend your running mate's position and in all six cases he's -- >> tonight put worlds in my mouth. >> you've got give me time. >> and yet he's asking everybody to vote for somebody that he cannot defend, and i just think that should be underlined. >> that is kind of true. >> no. >> right there -- >> that's not true? >> right there was a lie. >> apparently he's very bad at

math. i sat 32 their and i heard mike pence defend donald trump on taxes, defend him on his first initial forray into the campaign about mexican immigrants, taken out of context. i heard him on putin. just because tim kaine can't do math, doesn't make it true. >> he didn't defend him on the miss universe, on the tweetset set ra. he didn't -- >> yes, he did. we've all been saying here saying why did he play service. >> the fact donald trump hates mexicans is untruth, and he says repeated it. tim kaine repeated that repeatedly tonight and there is not a word of truth to it, not one. >> hold on a second. you have to give me this one. we disagree on everything, but you have to give me something. >> the one thing i'm supposed to agree on? >> i'm hoping. he did say that donald trump department say things that donald trump in fact said. you heard that. >> i heard him say that. >> yes. >> okay. so you agree with me that part

of his great mastery was that he just lied about the ritorial record of donald trump, and there will be an avalanche -- >> i thought you were talking about kaine. >> part of the job of the running mate is take on water yourself in order to hit the other side. tim did that a lot tonight. governor pence promoted himself at the expense of donald trump and that is -- i'll tell you -- donald trump is not happy with this debate, i promise. >> i'm just being an honest analyst. i think mike is a good guy, but he's given up on 2016. >> do you know why we feel that way? because we saw mike pence elevate this campaign rhetoric to a higher level. the american voters won tonight because they talk about issues. >> four years from now, that's how high it is. >> he will be rewarded for that. >> there's one thing i want to say, if you are someone who's concerned about pence, you're breathing a sigh of relief

because he was not prosecuted on his own record. a couple things, this abortion thing came up and he talked about his faith and the need for adoptions. we don't want to have abortions we should have adoptions. this is who says lesbians and gays should not be able to adopt children that. is a horrible position to take. he dodged a bullet on that tonight. he said gays should have conversion therapy, this is somebody who says if a woman goes to a hospital and needs an emergency abortion, she should be left to die. there's a lot of -- so listen, to the extent that he is running, to the extent that he did not defend donald trump, he also got away with a lot tonight and i tell you what, it is very, very important, i think, for us to recognize if the republicans think this is a moderate guy, they've gone off the trails more than i thought. >> i understand they're now trying to do this to mike pence, but i can tell you anyone --

>> true or false. >> anyone what watched that debate did not see a man who is hateful. they saw ha man who is kind and smart, and you should be a swayed,ica caitlyn jenner is allowed in my bathroom any time. >> and he's upset mike pence was trying to depict donald trump as he's not and he's -- you can be confronted on things like the region or of putin, admiring quotes of trump's, that bear no relationship to mike pence's position as he aric isolated. and there are a series of things like that. that may have been a good strategy, it may not have been a good strategy, but it's an undeniable strategy. >> but the problem is, she was secretary of state. she was the secretary, the russian reset. anything to do with that -- whatever -- >> that's a different point. >> but he is there and whatever you want to say about him, pro,

con, or in different, he's there because of her. >> but every indication has been -- and we'll see you know that of vladimir putin has been much more receptive to the notion of donald trump than the notion of hillary clinton. why is that? >> right -- >> why has he been so warm in his comments because donald trump -- >> because he's from the kgb and really wants her elected. >> and i can just say on the issue of putin, pence told dana bash, i think it's in arguably, vladimir putin has been a stronger leader in his country than president obama has been in this country. >> and he denied it. >> he denied it. >> he denied saying better, but heed stronger. >> stronger. >> it's semantic debates that went on. >> i was following on twitter during the debate, as governor pence was saying that donald trump is not running an in-sult driven campaign, trump was tweeting insults saying tim

kaine looked like a villain out of batman. >> just to be fair, it was a re-tweer re-tweet let me go to wolf blitzer. >> i want to get specifically to that one exchange that mike pence had with tim kaine on this whole issue, who's stronger, better lead, is it president obama, or vladimir putin. here's what tim kaine said in this exchange with governor pence. >> governor pence said in arguably, vladimir putin is a better leader than president obama. >> that is absolutely in -- inaccurate. >> and i just think a guy -- >> he said he's a stronger -- he's been stronger on the world stage. >> you said leader and i'll just say this. >> you just said better. >> if you mistake leadership for dictatorship and you can't tell a difference, a country that's running its economy into the ground, persecuting journalists,

if you can't tell the difference you shouldn't be commander in chief. >> we did some checking. dana bash did have an interview with governor pence at the ronald reagan museum in california. here's what governor pence said. >> i think it's in arguable that vladimir putin has been a stronger leader in his country than barack obama has been in this country and that's going to change the day that donald trump becomes president of the united states of america. >> all right. you had that exchange with him and he elaborated at the time, as well. >> that's correct. and just going back to tonight, tim kaine suggested mike pence said that he -- that vladimir putin was a better leader. he said stronger, and there is -- there is a difference. but at the time, during that interview at the reagan library, i pressed pence about the fact vladimir putin doesn't have the kind of democracy that barack obama has with the congress and checks and balances, and you know the basic democracy and

people who can push back on him unlike vladimir putin and pence kind of demured on that. there's no question that tim kaine was trying to invoke what donald trump said, changed his words just a little bit. >> what was your reaction to that kpaexchange? >> there's no question. remember when he was in the congress, mike pence was a hawk. mike pence is a traditional conservative who -- he invoked ronald reagan and goes back to the old soviet union ways and views putin in the same way, and he's not a politician and part of it is because he's said some things about vladimir putin and it's clear this is one of the issues where definitely in style and in their tone of their conversations, mike pence and donald trump don't communicate about this the same way, that's just a fact. >> eric trump is joining us fresh out of the debate. i want to get to some of the that in a moment. but we did see -- we did see

governor pence on the phone right after this debate. was he talking with your dad? >> i don't know. i would imagine so. i think my father would be incredibly proud of his performance tonight. i certainly was as a family member sitting in the front row. he hit it out of the park. he was poised, he was artic let. he wasn't interrupting, and wasn't using the same sound bites time and time again, which you saw. i thought governor pence was amazing and think he represented the family and represented the party incredibly, incredibly well tonight. >> your quick reaction in the interview with dana, pence did say i think it's inarguably, vladimir putin has been a stronger leader than president obama has been in this country. you saw that exchange the two vice presidential candidates had. i want to get reaction. >> my reaction is simple. our president goes over to china two weeks ago. china didn't bring a staircase

up to air force one. governor pence was giving that interview in front of air force one, right, china didn't bring a staircase, no red carpet, no marching band, our president came out through the service entrance of the plane. that's what other world leaders think of our country, that's what other world leaders think of our president. we've lost respect and my father will restore respect and my pence will restore respect and the think the comment was very valid. >> dana. >> governor pence was asked many, many times to defend and explain some of the things that your father has said and he side stepped and avoided a lot of those opportunities to do that. now, some would say that he didn't take the bait like frankly your father did last week, but on the other hand he also decided not to defend your father in some of the things he said. were you -- as donald trump's son, were you disappointed in would you have liked mike pence to have defended him more? >> this is make book 101 for the

clinton campaign, distract, distract, distract. hillary clinton has been a politician longer than i've been alive if you can believe it. if you look at her track record, sir yar syria, libya, the russian reset, where she said she was going to create 200,000 jobs in new york, and the net effect of that, by the time she left senate, new york and upstate had lost an additional 8,000 jobs. look at the clinton foundation, it might be one of the greatest ponzy schemes in history. you look at the e-mail controversy -- >> you're pivoting what your father didn't do -- >> she should be prosecuted on the case. i hear this garbage, trump has businesses in russia. >> he declined to do so. >> i think the governor did an

absolutely amazing job not eerchd defeonly defending but putting the argument back on them. secretary of state, as senator of new york, right, she has done an absolutely terrible job and it's cost our nation trillions of dollars and thousands of thousands of lives. >> there's a lot of talk tonight about federal incomes taxes. you can just put this to rest? has your father paid federal income taxes? >> we pay a tremendous amount of taxes and beyond -- >> federal income taxes. >> yes -- >> yes? >> and beyond taxes we employ tens and tens and tens of thousands of people. the difference between my father and hillary clinton, is hillary clinton has lived off the government her entire life. she's never created -- >> my question is has he paid federal income taxes over the last 18 years? >> yes, absolutely. my father pay as my father pay a a tremendous amount of tax and we as a company hire a tremendous amount of people who leads to people building able

being able to care for their children and families. if you look at hillary clinton, she's never signed the front of a check once. >> so if we see your father's income taxes, it will show he's paid federal income taxes? >> there's no question about it. we pay tremendous tax saes as a company. >> when the audit is over, we will release the taxes. >> have you seen the returns? >> and when will she release the hundreds of speeches she gave to special interest, or the speeches she gave to wall street? when will she release the 33,000 e-mail it's. >> have you seen the federal income taxes? >> after lying to the department of justice, to the fbi, and lying to congress. >> erik, i'm pretty impressed because you haven't been -- >> you should show up at the debate. >> you haven't been in politics and you're doing the pivot quite well. if you can just put a button on this, you have senior father's income taxes. >> i don't study our tax returns. >> you have seen them? >> of course you see tax

returns. >> you have senior father's tax returns? >> of course i've seen my father's tax returns. >> and he's paid federal taxes? >> my father pays a tremendous amount of tax, as a company, and goes so far beyond federal income taxes. how about employment taxes? how about sales tax? we pay a tomorrow duce amoureme tax as a company that. is different than hillary clinton who has lived off the government for the last 40 years. >> why not release the income tax returns no longer under odd snit. >> listmy father said he will release the taxes when the audit is over, and hey, hillary clinton, why don't you release the 30,000 e-mails, and the speech transcripts and i'll release my tax returns and this is a whole distribution -- >> 2002 and 2008 are no longer under audit. >> i don't know if that's true. >> that's what morgan lewis for the law firm for donald trump

has said -- >> only if you know something i don't. >> will they lease the public letter -- the major law firm. >> why don't you look at the financial disclosure it's my father hassan amazi some amazin companies. and some of the most amazing golf courses. you've seen in the last decade or two decades. he has an amazing company. he's built a tremendous company and has employed thousands and thousands of people and is very different than somebody who's lived their entire existence profiting off the government. the one question i have to and hillary went from being dead broke, hillary and bill, to being worth a quarter billion dollars, and the question i have for the three of you is what product has she ever told? what product is she selling she went from nothing in a quarter billion dollars? >> we don't answer for hillary clinton. i urge you to show up at your father's debate practice because

you have a skill set, and frankly, if he had done some in of this -- >> i like the three on one. at least we're having a little bit of fun tonight. >> we're sitting in the front row, here with the pence family to represent your dad and the campaign, when tim kaine was not prosecuting your father in trying to make his case saying your father would have a conflict of interest, or at least we might have a conflict of interest your name came up. >> the trump organization is an octopus-like organization with tentacles all over the world whose conflict of interest could only be known if donald trump would release his tax returns. he's refused do it. his sons have said that organization has a lot of business dealings in russia, and remember the trump organization is not a non-profit. it's putting money into trump's pockets and the pockets of hi children, whereas the clinton foundation is non-profit and no clinton family member draws any salary. >> i want you to respond if you can, please, be as specific as

you can about the company's dealings why russia and specifically to the point russia banks or any russian inventor it's do you owe money in russia? >> it's such a nonsense sound bite. we've built an amazing company. america should be proud of people who build great companies. that's what america's all about, it's about building and it's about success and it's about jobs and creating the american dream, right? henry ford and -- i mean that's what america is about. we should be proud of that. so talk about tentacles all over the world, we have no assets in russia. that was a non-sense statement. we had no assets in russia. we have no debt in russia. i haven't been to russia in six, seven years off the top of my head, five, six, seven years. it's nonsense. i think we held miss universe in russia, i think that's the extent of our business dealings. we have no hotels, we have no golf assets, or residential buildings. we don't have properties in

russia. that's what the american people are fed up with. it's the sound bites, it's these lies, it's the disengenius nature of t referring it, refer great company that employs thousands of americas to a company that's nephariou is, that has tentacles all over the place. >> and to your point, here's the papers, they're lying, it doesn't exist, why wouldn't he do it? >> tax returns don't show anything any way. if you want to know if we have assets in russia, go look to see if our name is on a building, see if we own any property. we're a bricks and mortar company. the reality is we don't. we just don't. but it doesn't matter. look at -- look at the clagz for just a second, right. the u.s. government sold 20% of the uranium stockpile, to make nuclear weapons to russia. two weeks later, the clinton

foundation gets $145 million from the russian business people who put that deal together. bill clinton has been to moscow a number of times and he's been paid $500,000 to give speeches on so many occasions in russia. her ties to russia are deep, there's no question about it. anybody who has ever looked at the clinton foundation, knows their ties to russia are incredibly substantial. this is pure graarbage? >> final question. how is your father prepare something. >> he's preparing and he's not going to be the staged candidate that i think you saw tonight. how many times were the same catchy little sound bites thrown over and over. you know they were on a sound bite and being practiced somewhere. >> you're talking about tim kaine? >> tim kaine. my father speaks from the heart and i'm so proud of what my father has accomplished and he's done an unbelievable job and

we're going to win come november 8th, no question about it. >> eric trump, appreciate it. jeff zeleny, you've got a special guest, as well. >> i do, i'm here with the chair of the clinton campaign, john pedesta. did you think senator kaine came across as the more well-liked candidate? >> he did a good job explaining what he and hillary wanted to do for the american people and how to build an economy that'll work for the middle class, not just everyone at the top. he was strong on reproductive choice and he challenged governor pence to defend the kind of hateful campaign that donald trump has run and time and again, governor pence took a dive. >> and you said though that he didn't have a smooth performance. double governor pence was simply not taking the bait that senator kaine was throwing out? >> no, i think he -- he

essentially had made a decision that he would not try to defend the top of the ticket, that he was going to move away from donald trump that -- that you know when faced with the things that donald trump has said, not unfair characterizations, not made-up facts as pension through at tim with respect to hillary, but he decided he withstood defend him and he made a soft attempt to try to defend his business practice and couldn't defend his decision not to release his tax returns. >> looking ahead to sunday, do you think donald trump has lowered the bar for his own performance? >> it's a tough format for donald trump. he's going to have to look real voters in the eye. answer their questions. hillary has been doing this since the beginning of her career. she's always been about helping children and families. you listen to people, you understand what their problems and are you try relate to them.

donald trump has really -- never really done that much in his life and he certainly hasn't done that much in this campaign so it's a challenging format. now, given the reviews that he got on the first debate, i guess the press will probably set that bar very low for him. >> your campaign moved forward and gained ground. you get so much information in data and analytics what about is one piece of information that still naws at you that you would like to correct in this coming four weeks? >> i think we will spend our time doing what hillary did today, in suburban philadelphia, which talked directly to voters about what she wants to do, that's why she did the children and families town hall with chelsea, that's why she talked about equal pay, and anti-bullying, and why she talked about raising minimum wage, having affordable childcare, these are the real problems facing families in

america. she's not ideas and plans to -- about what to do about that, and she's got a proven track record of always fighting for kids are always fighting for families, that's what we've got to do and to seal the deal we know we are still have work to do. we're obviously working on the ground to get our vote out, but we also have to keep talking to the american people about their future. that's what this campaign is all about, their future. >> of course you worked for bill clinton for a long time, as well. what he was who talking about in flint, michigan, and where you disappoint body his commened di about oerk? >> it's been a success for 20 million people, and it's ended the ban on insurance companies to ability to deny coverage for preexisting conditions, stopping discrimination against women, providing -- >> he called it crazy. >> what he was saying is there was a feature of the law, that

meant that if you got subsidiis, you were doing okay, if you were just above that you were having trouble, but right from the beginning -- and i think president obama talks about the fact that we need to improve things, we need to make it easier for small business to insure -- to buy insurance for their employees. we need to make sure that people in that -- in that economic bracket that he was talking about can afford the insurance they need to give tax credits to people so they're out-of-pocket expenses aren't too big and that we need to lower the price of prescription drugs. so he was colorful and i probably would have chosen different words but i think what he was saying is there's still -- the law has been a success, but there's still more to do. >> final thing here f she has a strong debate performance on sunday, secretary clinton, can she put this election away? >> we'll never say that until the last poll closes. we're going to work -- you know, there's early voting going on, more and more of it will come

online, our team is out, we've built very strong organizations, really across the country in all 50 states? >> not yet sond. >> wi >> talk to me november 8th around 10:00. we're going to get the results from a focus group of undecided voters who have assembled. they watched the debate. we're going to get that and we have an exclusive cnn instant poll, people all over the country who watched this debate we're going to find out who they thought won this debate, in the meantime let's go back to jake. >> thanks, wolf, i'm here with our elite panelists and gloria borger, there is the 90 minutes of debate, and then there is the spin afterwards, the media coverage afterwards, the "saturday night live" mockery afterwards. you gave the debate to pence. you said generally he had a better debate. >> yes. >> what about the post, the spin

and the coverage and the sn sflrks. >> as we were talking about earlier, he was unflappable, and he defended himself -- >> pence? >> -- more than donald trump. pence. there's going to be an awful lot of fact checking particularly on the question of putin, and russia, and he didn't really answer the question on immigration, because the question that elaine quijano said what do you impose on crimes. he said we'll get to that later. he didn't have an answer for that question, and i think that as paul was pointing out, i think that pence did a very good job for himself and had a clear strategy, which was you know, don't take these insults and defend them, just turn it to hillary clinton and kaine's strategy was attack trump and attack pence for defending

trump, but pence never defended trump, so it was a little bit more difficult for him to do. so we had the "saturday night live," i think he'll have another lockbox moment as had you with al gore, with the question if i can't imagine how you can defend that, which he said repeatedly on purpose, as he pointed out, and you know, i -- that's why i think in the end, that this probably isn't going to change that many minds. pence liked like the high school principal sometimes and kaine looked like the eager it's eager student and so they are just two different guys defending two very different people. >> what pence didn't look like was donald trump. >> exactly. >> he looked like a conservative. >> and ultimately, donald trump is the candidate. the question is what happens sunday night when donald trump returns to the stage. >> exactly. >> and is he this candidate that we saw tonight or is he the donald trump we've seen on the stage for the last year?

it would be -- it would be interesting if he changed, but there's no indication that -- he's gotten here by being who he is. he's not going to change now and a lot of the stuff that -- that pence laid down there is not basic donald trump stuff. >> not at all. >> you know, one thing i thought that was very interesting though, they came in at it in different ways. on the criminal justice stuff they wound up kind of agreeing. and i want to point out,s have a very unusual agreement in politics. in 2012, the democratic party had not one line about criminal justice reform in its platform. this is halfway through the obama administration, not one word and now years later, you can have two people who disagree about everything and on criminal justice e justice -- i just think it's an

important moment for us dealing with these issues for 20, 30 years, screaming in the wilderness, you're not now at a place where both political parties agree to talk about it. >> i think that's where records matter. you have hillary clinton who called groups of people super predators who passed a crime bill under bill clinton's tutelage. compare that -- that was her husband and she supported and demonized those people in prison calling them predators. meanwhile -- meanwhile -- she didn't have the right judgment. meanwhile you have mike pence who passed criminal justice reform who was on the right side voting in congress to pass federal criminal justice reform. he had the judgment when hillary clinton didn't and donald trump had the judgment to pick mike pence and he will have the judgment to appoint people -- >> i'm so glad you brought that

up. i certainly hope not since it's make pence who want to have funerals to pay for their funerals of their fetuses. even on criminal justice he passed a bill and increased the punishment for people who are addicted to pheroine, which is the dreksirection we should be going. we need to an honest conversation about the way to fix the problem. >> there were two moment what's i thought it was really good dialogue, one was one when they talked about abortion, it was a civil conversations and the other one as i point out when they were talking about community policing and the steps that could go forward. jeffrey, let me ask you about the next debate with donald trump. >> right. >> do you accept the premise that he had a bat first debad f?

>> >> no, i did not. >> if he shows up like he did in the first debate that would be a win? >> you can keep going through the debate cycles and act differently if you will. ronald reagan had what was generally considered to be a lousy first debate. president obama was considered to have one, but they showed up. their style didn't change dramatically, it's just that they were more forthright in going after opponents and that sort of thing. >> and preparing. >> i think donald trump was wonderful -- the first half hour in particular i thought he was really great. here's, jake, i think one of the problems country has in terms of how they view this. they look at these events and then they see the media portrayal of the event and they think they're being told donald trump lot the debate or whatever -- >> you have the reverse going on tonight with people saying mike pence won. >> expect our focus group pointed out -- >> they were a virginia focus group. >> they were all virginians.

you said there's no constructive criticism, there's no advice you would give to donald trump for the second debate? >> it's a different kind of debate. it's a town hall. >> you've got to adapt to that. we all remember the bill clinton, george h.w. bush debate. he got out of his chair and sort of telegraphed the, i feel your pain business and the problem for president bush was he looked at his watch. but this -- this debate will be entirely different and structured entirely in a different way. >> you are the only human being on planet earth who thinks donald trump doesn't need to do anything different in the debate. >> no, there's two of us. there's two of us. >> yes, let trump be trump. don't -- top this, van, stop. listen to jeffrey and kailey. be your bullying obnoxiousous

self. >> senator kaine talked about the bush tax cuts and said they were responsible for the greatest recession since the great depression. it was not the bush tax cuts. it was fannie mae and freddie mac and decades of democratic policy that began with president clint clinton's housing policy in the 1990s. and chester a. arthur, too. but can we get back to the debate? it was a remarkable moment when tim kaine called him a small, weak bully -- wait, no, that was mike pence. i've never seen anything like it. donald trump has gone out of his way to praise putin, and gotten a lot of criticism and has been strong in his fidelity to his pal, the leader of russia even though he's a dictator. this is not some minor side issue. >> we should be more

confrontational, wherever it goes, donald trump says wouldn't it be great if we got along better with reductiussirussia? >> they were on the same policy for decades and decades. >> here's the thing, who -- if you are pence, and you get to make up your running mate, you get to make up your facts, you get to make up -- you get to deny quotes that are obvious and already all over twitter, you can have a great debate. that's wonderful. but the reality is, you have a major problem in this party. >> kailey, do you see -- >> not being denied is the mike pence hands down won the debate. very clear. >> do you see a discrepancy between what mike pence said about vladimir putin and drumon trump's position? >> not at all. hut administration that walked away from russia, you want a strong russia to deal with russia and you have a strong person to some extent, that being said he pinned the blame for russia's actions going into

crimea -- >> he blamed that on russia, which happened in the last generation -- >> they did a reset button to russia -- >> i'm asking you question. >> sure. >> who was president when russia went into georgia? >> who was president when russia annexed crimea. >> and i'm answerisking a quest about. who extended -- >> tonight mike pence said it was the obama administration that was in charge when they went to russia. >> who extended a reset button to russia, shook hands right before russia went in and annexed crimea? >> that would be hillary clinton, whose judgment once again failed. >> what would have happened if george h.w. bush said the soviet union isn't such a nice place.

that's what we saw tonight on one of the most important foreign policy issues facing america. >> i think -- it was astonishing. >> i think what we saw tonight and we've been talking about this, is that if mike pence were running for president of the united states -- >> and he is -- >> which if that's true is a testament to donald trump's good just putting him on the ticket. >> he would be pro trade, he would be anti-putin, and he would support george w. bush's decision on iraq and i think those are three things that mike pence has clearly distanced himself from his presidential candidate on and he wasn't going to let a debate get in the way of that. >> do you think it's right? >> i made a list that the loser of tonight's debate -- or losers were ted cruz, scott walker, bobby ji bob bobby tendel and all of those who look forward to the next

debate. it will be the first debate since the "new york times" relative to donald trump and the taxes and i think something significant happened here tonight when eric trump was interviewed by dana, and then by wolf, when wolf was pushing him relative to the return of the taxes that we haven't seen, he said something similar and went a step further than his father did, initially, if she'll release those 30,000 e-mails then my father will release the tax which is to me shows it's a negotiation, and it's not about the audit, because if there were 30,000 e-mails in existanence s could produce, what happened to the argument that i'd love to show you my tax returns but my accountant won't let me do it. when people see that and realize it they're going to see through it. >> hasn't donald trump said something similar? >> i think he said it clearly. i also think there was a significant moment on the particular issue when kaine said to pence, you had to submit your

tax returns to donald trump before he could make you the nominee for vice president, why shouldn't the american people get to see donald trump's income tax returns before they make him president? i suspect that that line registered with people because it just makes commence sense. >> do you think that's possible at all, jeffrey? do you think it's possible, that voters who -- polls indicate a maj majority of voters want donald trump to release his tax returns. >> i do not believe this is a voting issue. if you're what you're voting on you're not going to vote for donald trump any way. >> i agree nobody will vote yes or no, but does it feed into the trust issue, which might be a voting issue? >> maybe the media will try and make it feed in there, but i honestly don't think so. the whole tax thing -- first of all, i've said for months, he should never release his taxes. i went back and looked today, nixon didn't release his taxes

when he was running for president. it was after he was president. >> he didn't in '68, but he did in '72 when he was under audit. we're going to take a very quick break. coming up who won tonight's debate? we'll reveal the first results from the insuran from the insurance assistant poll watchers after this.

♪ the bud light party wasn't invited to the debates. but we don't need them. we have debates of our own every night. a hotdog is a sandwich. over bud lights, of course. it's pronounced jif. you cannot outrun a zebra. here's to good natured civil debates. also, it's gif.

who won this vice presidential debate? we've got the results from the cnninsta poll. share the numbers with us. >> this is a poll among debate watchers. this isn't a national poll among all voters. among debate watchers, it was

slightly more democrats than republicans were watching and take a look who they think won, mike pence, 48% say he won the debate, to tim kaine, at 42% and as you know, wolf, this is a game of expectations -- expectations, so look at this, did tim kaine do better or worse than you expected, 43% said he did worse, 38% said he better. mike pence, and 67% of debate watchers said he did better than they expected tonight, 14% said worse. remember we're showing pence won, pence beat the expectations game and the audience, of debate watchers was skewed a little bit more democratic, so certainly in the pence column tonight. >> good news for donald trump. he likes these poll numbers. stand by. dana your reaction to these numbers? >> this is great news for mike pence, but the open question is

what does it mean for the guy who really matters, at the top of the ticket and that's donald trump, whether or not the fact people seem to have liked mike pence and more importantly, as david pointed out, that he exceeded viewers' expectations. is he going to translate to trump in that's an open question, historically, the answer is no. >> there's an interesting question going on, in the conservative media saying a win for pence, is not necessarily a within for trump in the sense that it shows how pence was a better debater than the man atop the ticket, and this is c conservative saying tim kaine was annoying repeating those things but the people watching kept hearing tim kaine repeating those things donald trump said. i want to go to the inner circle of trump world, he does not think this is going to go terribly down well with the trump campaign, each though they're brushing up statements from all over the country

praising mike pence. he's hearing mike pence won, but he didn't defend donald trump and hillary clinton and mike pence are better debaters donald trump. some people think that might not sit well with the boss. >> he had a lot of opportunities to defend donald trump, and on several points he was pretty silent. >> absolutely, which is why one of our first questions to eric trump who was sitting here is how did you feel about the fact that mike pence didn't take the bait, but he certainly didn't defend your father. as the debate started to go on started to communicate with people in trump world say, how long until the people who prepared mike pence, which was a lot of prep work, are going to be flown to trump tower to try to convince the top of the ticket this is how you prepare for a debate, you do it with, you know, actual mosquito debck somebody playing the opponent and the motivator, which is what mike pence did very aggressiv y aggressively, but the open question, is even if that happened, it would matter,

because donald trump a very, very different person than mike pence. >> two quick points number one donald trump said he was going to be live tweeting. there was a lot of anxiety when donald trump said he was going to live tweet during the debate. essentially this was the communications staff they were dweeti tweeting press releases, and a few comments by donald trump, how he was doing a good job. if you look at the tweets of the past, pretty straight forward in mainstream. and another conversation, mike pence's tonight is very different when it comes to vladimir putin, and russia, and i was reminded at the republican convention, trump forces pulled from the platform, tough language on russia. the traditional hawks wanted tough language against vladimir putin and putin. now you hear mike pence say he's a bully. we have to stand up tough to him. that was not trump's tone at his own convention and that's not

his tone. >> we're getting some reality checks coming in. jim shudo has been watching this. what do you have? >> the topic that we've talked about a lot tonight, russia, what exactly have trump and pence said about their support for him and their leaders, let's have a listen to tim kaine tonight. >> the newly emboldened aggression with russia, now in ukraine -- >> you guys love russia. >> you both have said vladimir putin. >> we're going to get to russia in just a moment. >> elaine, thank you. thank you, senator, i'll -- >> these guys have praised vladimir putin. >> and we'll get to that, senator. >> you heard that there, the claim, senator kaine, attacking both trump and his running mate pence for their praise of vladimir putin, so let's look at what trump and pence have said. let's start with the republican nominee at the commander in chief forum, trump said putin has quote very strong control in his country, he went on let's

have a listen. >> he is very much of a leader. the man has very strong control over his country. >> pence denied tonight that he praised vladimir putin, but the fact is he's made similar comments more than once about putin's leadership when backing up his running mate's comments v. a listen to mike pence. >> i think it's inarguably, that vladimir putin has been a stronger leader in his country than president obama has been in this country. >> so the verdict here -- and this is a pretty straight-forward one. remember the claim from senator kaine was simply pence and trump had praised vladimir putin. we heard it and it was more than those times you heard tonight. we rate this one as true. >> jim, thank you. tom foreman, you've been doing a reality check, as well. what are you learn something. >> one of kaine's basic claims is that trump campaign has no facts. all they have is an insult-driven campaign.

the >> these guys say all mexicans are bad. >> that's false. >> and respect to refugees we want to keep people out if they're dangerous. mike pence said if they're from syria. >> is this really true? all mexicans are bad? that's what he about donald trump. did donald trump say that? certainly donald trump disparaged a lot of mexican citizens saying they're rapists. never said all of them are bad. that part is false. what about the other claim, the idea you should keep them out if they're dangerous or muslim. yes, donald trump did make those claims. that part is true and what about the idea that mike pence wants to stop syrian refugees from coming to his state of indiana, he's fought very hard to make that happen. the courts recently slapped him down on that. that claim is also true, but now listen to how pence went right back at kaine. >> ours is an insult-driven campaign. if donald trump had said all the things that you said he said in

the way he said he said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that hillary clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. >> so, did she really say that? yeah, he did use the word "deplorables", and tried to explain the bigots and racists and zexenophobic, and kaine try today another part to say, she really sort of disavowed to and walked back. she may have qualified it, but never took it back. the word claims out there and his claim on that front is absolutely false. >> all right, tom foreman. thank you. by the way for more reality checks go to cnn.com/reality check. coming up we're going to hear from our focus group of

undecided virginia voters. we're going to get the reaction to key moments in tonight's debate. we'll be right back. guess what guys, i switched to sprint.

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as we showed you earlier, a majority of our focus group of undecided voters said tim kaine won the debate. show you a key moment that these voters in virginia said was important for them. watch the bottom of the screen. men's responses in green, women

in yellow, when the lines go up, liked what they heard, go down, didn't like candidate's answer. here's tim kaine talking about his faith add the death penalty. >> it's very difficult to allow executions to go forward but in circumstances where i didn't feel there was case for clemency, i told virginia voters i would uphold the law and i did. that was a real struggle but those of us with deep faith lives don't feel we with substitute our own views for everybody else in society regardless of their rues. >> pamela brown in richmond, virginia, what did the voters like about this answer? >> this group of 28 undecided voters at university of richmond was looking for substance tonight and majority of them said they found that with tim kaine, answers about religion and other issues.

find out from undecided voters, what did you like? >> he had a definite plan and systematic in addressing issues. >> reporter: in what way did he articulate that plan you hadn't heard before? >> he had a plan, and attacks against him he counted. measured in responses. >> reporter: do you feel like tim kaine laid out plans better than the presidential candidate hillary clinton on the ticket? >> he did a better job laying out the plans, enumerating but wasn't really thrilled. >> reporter: ask you, did it change your attitude at all about hillary clinton because you also thought tim kaine won tonight. did it change your view of her as presidential candidate? >> i think tim kaine won because of his presentation of policy and lack thereof from mike pence

but i don't think it changed view of hillary clinton so much but embowledened my view of how i see tim kaine and strengthened their ticket but that's his own individual and looking to see how he presented himself and could take over as president should the need ever arise. >> reporter: and you felt like he did that tonight? >> partially. looking for a little bit more. >> reporter: all right. wolf on that note you heard the reasons why they felt tim kaine won on substance. demeanor is different issue. majority felt mike pence had the better demeanor. >> a lot of the voters also liked mike pence. here's a moment they liked from pence. >> donald trump has filed over 100 pages of financial disclosure which is what the law requires. >> but said would tax returns. >> what did they like about that

specific clip? >> reporter: go to those who thought mike pence won tonight and had the good demeanor. ask you become here because you felt like mike pence was more presidential tonight than tim kaine right? >> right. >> reporter: how so? >> more measured responses, wasn't forcing his way into the conversation, just had more respect for the process and seemed more measured and lot more thoughtful than tim kaine. while i think tim kaine probably did -- i liked that he laid stuff out, i just think pence came across as more relaxed and more honest. >> reporter: how about you? >> as far as what he won? >> reporter: pence and his demeanor tonight. >> i felt his responses were more measured. felt like when asked questions did pause. to me that's being reflective before he answers. i did feel he laid out policy

points that were specific to the questions posed to him. >> reporter: so you all thought he had a better demeanor, how many of you thought tim kane was too much of an attack dog. even though a majority think i won didn't like demeanor. show of hands if you would like vice presidential candidates to be at top of ticket after watching the debate? there you see it, all of them rather the vice presidential candidates be at top of the ticket. coming up we'll tell you whether tonight's debate influences undecided voters come november. >> coming up another reality check of what the vice presidential candidate said tonight. who better defendant his running mate. more results from instant pool of debate watchers. stay with us.

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the one and only vice presidential debate is now history. getting more results from cnn's exclusive instant poll. david, what do you see? >> start with the top line number, who won the debate? among the debate watchers mike pence edges out tim kaine 48% to 42%. doesn't mean tim kaine didn't score points though. we asked who better defended running mate? a kaine category. 58% said kaine better defended clinton and 35% pence on trump. kaine clearly on the attack in the mind of debate watchers. 76% said spent more time attack opponent and 14% about pence. how about the issues, who had a better understanding? 48% says tim kaine did.

41% said mike pence did. and finally who was more likeable in this debate? 53% of debate watchers said mike pence was more likeable, 37% about tim kaine. >> it's interesting because governor pence seemed a little bit calmer than tim kaine did. >> a lot calmer. especially at the beginning. tim kaine seemed almost frenetic, trying to get in as much as he could, so many the points he wanted in there all over the place. seemed to calm down himself but never as much as mike pence. no surprise that's where the numbers were on that. thing i also found interesting is that tim kaine got 58% of those who were asked about how they represented their boss. or person at top of the ticket. sfr fr the beginning of the debate, looked at each other when tim kaine uttered first few

sentences talking about trust over and over again. that's no accident. that was his job, talk about the things that are some of hillary clinton's achilles heels and trust as we know from polling we're looking at is one of them. >> polls showed that governor pence won this debate over tim kaine and more democrats apparently watching that debate so the numbers probably even higher. >> no doubt mike pence did himself well. found to be more likeable. people watching thought he won the debate. not defending donald trump, shows up with tim kaine defending hillary clinton will be part of the political conversation. conservatives are saying hes with smart to pivot instead of trying to defend things donald trump has said some of which are indefensible. not to be skunk at garden party

but this is one and only vice presidential debate. not much of a history that these change debates. people vote for presidents. lloyd benson in 1998 was viewed overwhelmingly as winner of the debate over dan quale. >> going through the various statements, tom foreman to you. >> tim kaine tried to shove donald trump on the the third rail of politics. social security. >> he wrote a book saying social security is a ponzy scheme. >> that's a scheme where you take money from one group of investors and give to another to imply you have a solvent sustainable business when you really don't. and yeah donald trump has

suggested that's social security, taking money from young people to pay for retirement of older people and can't last. in his book in 2000 he said does the maim pon xi come to mind? and also said privatization would be good for all of us. many politicians would rather shave their heads than talk about changing social security. now trump says wouldn't change it at all but it was absolutely true. >> and jim sciutto? >> the rise of isis in iraq and crucially who is responsible, here's governor pence tonight. >> overrun by isis because hillary clinton failed to renegotiate. >> you want to talk about more troops in iraq you can propose that. >> hillary clinton failed to renegotiate a status enforcement agreement. >> that's incorrect.

>> i'd like to move on to the. >> but i'd like to correct. >> overrun vast areas of iraq. >> claim that isis has overrun iraq due to the failures of hillary clinton and obama administration. facts, since first swept into iraq since 2014 isis has been in a slow but gradual retreat. look at map to see that. in the last few months lost key areas of fallujah and ram audi. getting close to mosel, plans to retake the city coming in next few weeks. envoy for iraq says since 2014 isis has lost half of the territory it had in the country. parts of the country ravages by isis, no one questioning that, situation since then has changed on the ground so verdict going back to governor pence's claim

that it's overrun iraq as of today, false. for this and all of tonight as other fact checks go to cnn.com. >> good work. stand by. jake? >> we have new panelists here to get their take on the debate. as we said, david gergen? >> overall more civilized and substantive than the presidential. reminded me of way politics used to play out. heartening. i don't think mike pence changed dynamics but did dp a service, didn't throw under the bus but stood by him and gave heart to trump supporters who may have been zpirted. may have stopped bleeding for a while to give donald trump a

chance in second debate to get back on track. a good introduction and bridge from the mess they've been in the last ten days. >> you think a vice presidential debate can stop the bleeding? >> i do. i think tim kaine was overprepared. came in wound up, too tight. lot of the interruptions and something strange about the camera angle was offputting. had him looking off kram camera need of into the camera, made him less effective than normally is. didn't see the warmth and likability of tim kaine some of us know. >> of the trump campaign you think mike pence had a good night. do you think fact he was perceived to have better night than donald trump had last night, might that rub mr. trump the wrong way? >> i don't think so, i think what you have in donald trump, he picked a vice presidential

candidate who he knew would help him on the ticket. saw that tonight. this is the first hire of the trump mirngs goes out of all the choices and picks mike pence. had a good night by all accounts, poised. articulate not rattled. what he did do is went out and outlined case of why this trump administration would be different than the hillary clinton administration. that something i think was important for mike pence to do going forward and answered questions he wanted to answer. very important i think mike pence did an excellent job tonight, public polls say that and at end of the day see it's good thing for the trump campaign. >> i agree mostly with david. i think that trump is going to move forward probably in a little bit of a better position, but i do think what kaine did brilliantly, yes interrupted and

talked about issues that did the has said but i think that was necessary. one of the things they wanted to get out of the debate is people not to forget the holes donald trump has been digging himself in. the fact he kept talking about taxes and linked with bromance was putin was important. and i just came from doing two hours of analysis on cnn espanol, what is trending there is whipped out mexican thing again senator kaine. >> what does that mean in the context of the debate? >> there was moment talking about abortion i believe and tim kaine started the litany which he did quite often, again i think effectively, offputting for a lot of people but a lot of strategy in there. he talked about abortion and

women's rights and then talked about how trump call mexicans rapists and criminals and as soon as he did that pence looked skras operated, there you go again snart whipg out the inexken thing. >> whipped out that mexican thing again. >> can you defend it? >> there are criminal aliens in this country who have come in illegally and perpetrating violence. >> you want a big tar brush against mexicans. >> and he also said many of them are good people. you keep leaving that out of your quote. >> i think that continued to solidify to important dem grask of voters -- and i think either donald trump has written them off or republican party has not understood yet that a republican can't get to the white house with at least 44% of the

hispanic voech hispanic vote. tonight they didn't subtract. >> they talked about putting americans first. what mike pence talked about tonight has been hallmark of the donald trump campaign, immigration reform. outlined hillary clinton is for open borders and amnesty. >> which is a lie. >> american people don't want open borders and am nesty. >> neither hillary. >> i'm not done. >> they want a wall. >> here's the thing, first of all lying as usual about hillary clinton's records. >> following in kaine's steps. he liked to lie. >> liar tonight was pence by the way. >> such a long list of lies, should go online. but here's the thing we should argue about later. i think you sometimes don't understand how things land. when you say whip out that mexican thing, the way that

sounds is very dismissive. >> almost like deplorables. >> exactly. which is really bad. >> sounds awful. >> and i've been as -- not 1 apology. >> first of all she apologized. >> i thought you didn't like interrupting. >> doesn't like interrupting. let me finish. i'm trying to help you. >> i love help. >> want you to do better. doing bad with latinos and black folks. >> is that the helping part? >> it is. seriously, there's a dismissiveness, this was a painful moment for latinos. when he said that. i know he tried to qualify it but it really -- can't say it wasn't painful. you can say it shouldn't have been but it was a painful moment. when you have an opportunity, got one of your best people up there, pence, to deal with it and put it away, instead steps in it.

and steps on rake tonight. don't even know it. if you look on twitter, trending now is your guy going down on that. >> also trending with clinton foundation. >> only thing could find is the mexican thing to complain. talk about landing wrong when tim kaine was asked about terrorism in syria and aleppo and pivots to donald trump's taxes, how tone deaf can you be? american people are scared of isis right now and your team wants go down in the mud. mike pence is doing american people a favor by being positive. >> one small thing i would take exception with is pence said that many of them were good people. and that's not what he said. i assume some of them are good

people. was an offensive quote and donald trump has been paying for it with hispanic voters and people who have sensibilities about these issues sense. i do believe tim kaine's greatest moments, finest in the debate, are the ones in which his true essence came out on the issue of faith and choice and death penalty, on the issue of crime and guns and one difference that is meaningful to the american people was on this issue, background checks. but i think he spoke compellingly on that. i think he was sent in to level attacks and sometimes didn't look comfortable doing it. tax attack was repeated probably too much and he interrupted too much. it wasn't becoming and wasn't him and felt like it wasn't.

>> very important. >> i think he did well on substance and laid down some tracks that will be useful for the clinton campaign. i agree with you that i think republicans will be hardened by this and will hold the fort until sunday when donald trump has to perform. i don't think there's a lasting impact. but i think tim kaine did sacrifice himself tonight to follow the game plan. >> keep kicking donald trump a little bit. hillary's great momentum she's had, and keeps republicans from panicking, when we talk about authenticity in politics and why all of us look ago politician and say that person is authentic or real. tim kaine when you saw announcement speech for example and spoke spanish and relaxed and hillary clinton was smiling behind him, that was authentic moment for tim kaine and tonight to echo david, he just didn't seem comfortable on the attack and he's not really good as an

attack dog, sitting face-to-face with somebody, not a comfortable position for him and mike pence is quite good at defecting it and being calm and cool about it. if kaine was trying to get under his skirngs which he probably was, didn't work. easier to get under did the's skin. >> i don't think got under his skin but able to put the stuff on the record about putin and with taxes. >> sacrifice play. >> in some ways it's where the campaign is, hillary clinton has wind in sails and donald trump is down and kept pummelling him. >> as debater, on the putin stuff, pence laid down a muscular argument, just wasn't donald trump's argument. so i think that was for kaine a bit confusing because he was making points off the record and pence was saying no that's not

true. so that's -- so that created some confusion. all said i think they both scored and we move on and sunday is the big event. >> i thought kaine had marshalled his arguments and knew facts very well but they were so familiar didn't strike home, didn't impress you the way i thought it might. and pence actually -- seemed like person we hadn't heard from. there seemed to be an adult around trump and been looking for that for a long time. >> kaine coming overprepped and rehearsed. came prepared with lines and zingers. >> loves dictators, has a personal mt. rushmore, vladimir putin, moemer gadhafi and saddam

hussein and donald trump plefs that the world lr safer if more nations have nuclear weapons, said saudi arabia and japan and korea should get them. when confronted and told terrorists could get those and leeds to nuclear war, he said go ahead folks and enjoy your self-. what is enjoyable or comical about nuclear war? >> governor pence? >> did you work on that for a long time? had a lot of creative lines in it. >> can you defend it? >> i can make clear after traveling millions of miles as secretary of state and being architect of foreign policy off this administration, america is less safe today than when barack obama became president of the united states.

>> it's a clinical exchange, pence lying out the obama at the end. kaine has attacks, like to see if you can defend any of it. pence says i can defend and stops himself, doesn't defend any of it. >> happened throughout the debate and question is kaine had a mt. rushmore line, clearly a line he came with. more effective if skipped embellishment and raised some individual points with a little more sobriety and little less flourish? i think the answer is probably yes. he's not that kind of guy. when he tries to land them not effective. about pence did he did effectively all night, just didn't answer. had that look like ridiculous, who would say things like that? well donald trump said things like that. >> three time, i keep saying

that we got pence up there and just basically lying, smooth, looks great, wins on points but basically lying and trump people keep sighing he's not lying. go through the list on nuclear proliferation it's in fact the case that trump said no nukz. pence said trump never said that. that's not true. the deportations, it's a donald trump policy and pence said it's not true. banning muslims. go through all the things that trump has said and pence straight-up lied and said trump didn't say that. pence did great for him by throwing donald trump under the bus not as person but ideas he came to prominence tonight. that happened. >> here's what happened, last monday night we analyzed

presidential debate and said donald trump sat on the defense for the last 45 minutes and answered every single question hillary clinton posed to him and crucified for it and should have been on the offense. you can't criticize mike pence for not being on the offense all night and didn't answer every retoert. >> no just tell the truth. >> and mike pence said if your or my son who served in military did what hillary clinton did, would be court martialed and tim kaine said not telling the truth, it is the truth. and both boys wore court martialed. pence talked about the e-mail and obama care, not talked about last time. hopefully hear more about it. >> i think that's exactly right. can't expect last week trump

played offense and pence to play defense. he had a very good debate, strong on the issues and shows me this is the judgment of donald trump. picks the right people. it's why he has a ten million dollar brand. hillary clinton administration will see no new ideas. status quo, we're better than trump and going to spend entire 90 minutes criticizing. >> i hear what you're saying trump took the bait and got hammered and pence didn't and being criticized but i think what van is saying is true. donald trump did say nukes for other countries, japan and south korea and a third one, saudi arabia, those were things that would be possible because united states was no longer going to

protect them infer the nuclear umbrella and did call for muslim ban and in september called for deportation. >> and pence said nonsense, it's a lie. >> it is a fact that donald trump wants a ban on folks from countries with terror ties and laid out priorities not going into houses and taking people from their home. that's obama administration policy by the way. i've seen it firsthand. >> it's also a fact want hillary clinton wants to increase -- i. >> i think said 55,000. >> and should welcome. >> but it's true. >> welcome them here. >> i think van makes a good point, fact checkers will find that in fact tim kaine was closer to the facts than was

mike pence. think that's -- and kaine had on substance but point is for better or worse voters don't scrutinize debates line by line and don't think of fact checkers but try to take in totality of what they're hearing, tone and general line of argument. on that pence was effective. >> i agree with that. >> the day after you say a lot of this doesn't work but people walk away thinking pence won the debate and will be the story. >> except on the truthfulness or lack thereof, what mike pence tonight did is proved he was actually following in his boss's foot steps. let's remember that up until recently there have been scores of reports and investigative reporters actually making the case that donald trump has been the most dishonest presidential candidate in modern history.

counting his lies every time he opens his mouth, 70% of the things he says are lies lies every 3 minutes and 15 seconds. so today with pence starts saying things which many of the american people know are not trurks that's going to continue to sink in. and while pence did well tonight, the ticket didn't. while kaine might not have done as well, ticket did well. >> fact check, ironic talking about a fact check. i think it's 70% of the things that a fact checking website fact checked found not true. not 70% out of his mouth. >> fair enough. >> if you're a conservative and worried about what happens to the republican party should donald trump lose and look at this debate tonight you go there's hope because mike pence was a conservative, talked about a lot of stuff you don't hear donald trump talk about, but he

also kind of toed the line in certain ways for donald trump. so while he did throw him under the bus on certain issues, he did defend him in other ways on immigration for example. but he also sounded like a conservative republican. if you're a republican watching this you're thinking okay the party will still survive even if donald trump doesn't. >> i know you disagree with the notion that mike pence threw donald trump under the bus and i respect that. let me ask you, donald trump's answer on putin was different than mike pence's. he insulted putin and donald trump called him a strong leader, leads country well and would like a good relationship with russia. isn't that a split. >> what is the difference between a democratic and republican administration? pence's answer is strength.

and kaine said hillary clinton has gone toe-to-toe with the russians, untrue. donald trump is going to be tougher with foreign leaders as hillary clinton would be. if she was so smart with foreign policy, why brexit -- >> who world called it wrong. >> donald trump called it right. >> brexit was going to pass. >> it's just not true that donald trump has given evidence he's going to be tougher with the russians than obama has been. you may think obama has been too weak but when you start saying nato may be obsolete and not going to come to defense of europe, if you don't think that gives incentive to putin to play games with latvia and other states around it, you're misunderstanding the world. putin will take everything he

can and trump has given him invasii envision after invitation. >> pence said that tonight. military in the worst place thence world war ii. we need to rebuild the military. peace through strength worked in the reagan administration and will again. >> take a break and throw it back to wolf blitzer in virginia. >> thanks very much. go back to reality checks that foreman and sciutto are doing. what are you finding out tom? >> on this side of the planet tim kaine went after a real kitchen table issue, what donald trump would do to minimum wage workers. >> first donald trump said wages are too high and both donald trump and mike pence think we ought to eliminate the federal

minimum wage. >> did donald trump really say that, asked about raising minimum wage and donald trump did say at the time he does think wages are too high, we're not going to be able to compete against the world. that was his rationale for that. he has suggested each state should decide what is appropriate for minimum wage there and maybe a federal minimum wage doesn't work so much. beyond that he did say that people have to get more, said that this spring talking about people struggling on minimum wage. but basic claim about this is true. it was the claim of donald trump but a lot of caveats so a bit misleading. wolf? >> jim you're doing reality check as well. >> topic here, always controversial in this race.

clinton foundation. governor pence. >> accepted foreign contributions from foreign governments and foreign donors while she was secretary of state. >> you heard the claim. charging clinton foundation accepted donations from foreign countries at the time hillary clinton was serving as secretary of state from 2009 to 2013, easy i to check out. website notes that clinton foundation has accepted millions of dollars from foreign governments while clinton was secretary of state. to be clear they've been open about this. foundation put restrictions on the funding one to report to the ethics department. in general follow those rules but the verdict is straightforward because governor pence's claim was simply did the foundation get the donations while secretary of state?

on that charge true. go to our website cnn.com/realitycheck. wolf? >> thanks very much. the reality checks are very important but average viewer is going to emerge from that 95 minute or so debate with impression about these two vice presidential running mates and how that impacts presidential nominees. >> and how that impacts them is only thing that matters in this whole ball game so the question is going to be whether or not mike pence staying calm, pivoting, not necessarily defending donald trump, is going to matter. answer is going to be whether or not each campaign can spin it and whether or not the people at top of the ticket can keep the narrative going. >> stand by. going to check back with focus group of undecided voters in virginia, did tonight's debate help them make up their minds?

and more results from instant poll of debate watchers coming up.

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let's get back to our focus group of undecided voters. pamela brown is with them in richmond, virginia. voters didn't like when tim kaine kept bring up donald trump's taxes. let's listen. >> i know he's laughing at this but every president since richard nixon has done it and donald trump has said doing business with russia, oath way american public will know if he has conflict of interest. >> no he hasn't said that. >> what are they telling you about this moment? >> reporter: it's interesting because for clinton it's about e-mails and taxes for trump but

group of voters here didn't like that when it came up. why does that resonate with you dan? >> i think all waiting for pence to pull the chris christie mark rubio moment when he said bring this up again, kind of memorized tactic that he had. and we have just been pummelled to death with the trump tax issue. only thing interesting was brought up possible foreign connection related to the taxes and little bit interesting but not certain what will come about it but tired of hearing about it. >> reporter: why did that stand out to you when pence brought it up? >> anytime there's a sensationalization, scandal implied, i think people are interested in that. be interesting to see what comes to light when the taxes are released. >> reporter: ask darryl over

here when your main take away was, you had a strong feeling after the debate. >> my biggest thing is if you're going to be the vice president at some point in time you have to take over as president of the united states. what i was looking for in the debate was whether tim kaine or mike pence would actually be able to show me that they can be the commander in chief. i'm a retired and disabled veteran from the army and take that to be a very important part of that job, of those duties. so what i really wanted was to see which of these men would be able to actually do that. i really didn't see that. i did see glimpses but overall really didn't see what i wanted to see as far as them supporting their candidates that they're supposed to be supporting. >> reporter: what about the issues that affect your life? do you think that was addressed enough? >> actually no.

even today there was report about va hospitals not giving support and care they need to and that's my primary care. i go to va to get care. to be able to hear that today the va hospitals aren't doing all they need to do. i can speak for myself the place i go in richmond gives me excellent care and still not addressed. >> reporter: you hear wolf undecided voters wanted more substance and more about issues that impact their lives directly. >> fair enough pamela. the big question, did this debate impact any votes at focus group? >> reporter: sure did. after watching this debate who will now vote for clinton/kaine

ticket come november? five. and look at trump/pence. two people and still undecided, still no idea? as you see wolf, majority here at university of richmond, still undecided. >> interesting stuff. thank all the members of the focus group in richmond, virginia. jake back to you. >> here with our panel. virginia a very important battleground state. richmond is tim kaine's home down and still undecided voters. >> that's why i think the vice presidential debates not dpozive one way or another, not going to change many people's votes. i think that's what we're seeing tonight. i think if you are a trump

supporter, liked a lot that mike pence was saying. if you're a hillary supporter liked what kaine was saying. one of the people in the focus group spoke about the canned lines and taking turn to taxes when it didn't seem natural, trying to make point about russia which we all understand but seemed forced very often from kaine who wanted to be on the attack all the time. i think voters can see through that when -- >> voters also suggested maybe something there and wanted to see the taxes and maybe something nefarious with trump's taxes and foreign. >> but kaine didn't have it. >> and foreign investments. that's what they're doing. wanted to throw as much on the wall to see what stuck with voters. clearly the tax thing, something stuck. >> i'll say it again, i think

constant interruptions didn't work for tim kaine and i think he beat the tax thing into the ground to the point where it became a distraction. that said, the issue that he raised there that pence mocked him for is an important issue. we know that donald trump owes hundreds of millions of dollars, we know he's not going to give up his company, he's said that, when he becomes president of the united states. how is it he could get elected president without anyone knowing who whom he owes this money? that seems like real leverage. this is a genuine issue related to tax returns that i think is unreported. >> hillary raised during the debate. >> i'm sure hear more on sunday. >> couple of things. mike pence, first choice of the trump administration, first hire as vice president, capable of god forbid stepping into the role of president if he needs to do that.

very important. second thing is donald trump been clear, if elected president will step away from company, children run it and have nothing to do with it, running country every single day. >> when i went to the white house i sold -- i had two companies and sold them because i didn't want any conflicts of interest. >> with all due respect you didn't have 10,000 employees. >> doesn't matter. >> makes it even more nez. my conflicts were small. >> don't sell a company worth 10 billion overnight on a lark. >> get elected president of the united states. >> by january 20th going to sell it? >> being elected president of the united states is not a lark. >> in 76 days sell a $10 billion company? >> cory. >> just say selling on a

schedule. >> he's leaving but kids in charge, money goes to trump family. you don't see as conflict of interest? >> had a secretary of state receiving money from foreign country while -- >> yes they had a charity, this issue raised and will continue to be. they got contributions to charity. talking about a private business if people pull funding for that business, call their loans or debt could be crippling and that to me is real conflict of interest. >> stay right there. ahead another round of results from exclusive instant poll of debate watchers after what they saw and heard tonight, are viewers more likely to vote for hillary clinton or donald trump, stay with us, be right back.

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- we had to think a little more seriously about saving money for the future and for the kids and for their college funds. we thought, "well this airbnb is actually a great way to pay those extra bills." - every bit of extra money helps these days. we have a retirement fund of our own and i take a draw on it. i don't want to take too much either because i don't know what life is going to bring to me. i get to keep 97% of my rental price. the extra income i get from airbnb has been a huge help. - airbnb has helped me so much financially especially starting my own business. san francisco is such an expensive place to live. the way people work and travel is changing. the guests are now able to stay longer, stay five days,

enjoy another day in san francisco and spend more money in the neighborhood. my guests are able to extend their stay and spend more money on activities and restaurants. - the extra income that i get from airbnb has been a huge impact in my life. let's check back with our political director david, with the result of the exclusive cnn instant poll we see that more of the people who actually watched the debate thought that tim kaine actually lost, that governor pence did a better job. >> that's right wolf. look at top line numbers, who won the debate, among debate watchers mike pence edging out

tim kaine 48% to 42%. now what we do is measure favorable unfavorable, how people are responding to the candidates. gets at what said before tim kaine may have sacrificed himself. unfavorables went up, favorables stayed the same. mike pence favorables went up seven points and unfavorables ticked up four points, a more net favorable movement for mike pence. who did the debate make you more likely to vote for? 53% neither, majority saying is this isn't moving the needle. 29% more likely clinton and 18% -- those are reversed.

29% trump and 18% clinton. >> slightly helping donald trump. thanks david. results pretty good for donald trump relatively speaking. >> relatively speaking because he wasn't on the stage tonight. it was his running mate. certainly will give him some much needed momentum and change the storyline and vibe of the campaign. but the question is how is he going to do on sunday. period. >> that's the big question. because the pressure now is enormous on donald trump. he's got to come back. >> donald trump had momentum going into the first debate and hillary clinton seized it back. people vote for presidents, nothing against the vice presidential candidates. mike pence did a good job and democrats are hoping the

conversation about not defending donald trump about statements will carry over. thing about trump is how sensitive aides and people around him are might hit the boss -- >> we're getting some more reality checks. tom foreman and jim sciutto are getting the numbers. you've been doing a cherk, tom foreman. what's the latest? >> mike pence went after the clinton family foundation trying to suggest it's not as charitable as you might think. >> the trump foundation's a private family foundation. they give virtually every cent in the trump foundation to charitable causes. >> political contributions? >> less than 10 cents on the dollar in the clinton foundation has gone to charitable causes. >> $20,000 portrait of donald trump? >> less than 10 krens on the dollar in the clinton foundation has gone to charitable causes. >> 90%. >> well, those are tough claims out there but there are numbers we can work with here. there's a group out there that tracks this sort of thing.

the first thing is the trump foundation is a whole lot smaller. it had about $1 million in assets in 2014. not terribly transparent about what they're doing with the money out there. but take a look at the difference with the clinton foundation. this is a massive foundation. $354 million in assets. a global reach out there. they're very transparent about what they're doing with their money. and yes, only about 6% of this money gets passed on to other charities. but that's not because they're keeping the money for themselves. they're using this money to do the work of the foundation. they don't farm the work out. they do it themselves. that's why the money stays there. in the end all of that means that what pence had to say here is just plain out false. wolf? >> all right, tom foreman. jim sciutto, what about you? what did you find out? >> wolf, the topic here, nuclear weapons. no small thing. and does donald trump want more countries to have them? here's what tim kaine said. >> donald trump believes that the world will be safer if more nations have nuclear weapons.

he said saudi arabia should get them, jb should get them, korea should get them. and when he was confronted with this and told wait a minute, terrorists could get those, proliferation could lead to nuclear war. here's what donald trump said. and i quote. "go ahead, folks. enjoy yourselves." >> there's the claim. kaine saying donald trump wants more countries to go nuclear here. let's look at the facts. easy for us to do because these were comments to our colleagues here. trump telling wolf blitzer earlier this year that he was prepared to accept a nuclear japan. that would break decades of american foreign policy. also expressed a willingness to express a nuclear south korea. big deal out there. you've got a nuclear china. you've got north korea nuclearizing. you're talking about a major arms race in asia. let's talk about his comments with anderson cooper. this on saudi arabia. a little vague here. in some public comments he said yes. when pressed he said he wasn't so sure. on that one open question. but on the larger point does donald trump want to have more countries with nuclear weapons? we rate tim kaine's comments tonight as mostly true.

again, for this, all of tonight's reality checks go to cnn.com/realitycheck. wolf? >> all right, guys. thank you. coming up, we'll take a closer look ahead at the critical debate rematch between hillary clinton and donald trump. that is only five days from now. we'll be right back. invited to . but we don't need them. we have debates of our own every night. a hotdog is a sandwich. over bud lights, of course. it's pronounced jif. you cannot outrun a zebra. here's to good natured civil debates. also, it's gif.

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the second presidential

debate is only five days from now. cnn's campaign camper is here in virginia ready to head to the next debate site at washington university in st. louis. tonight our team will start the drive to missouri, stopping along the way to hear from you, the voters, about your choice in this unprecedented election. you can see some of the photos of people that cnn has met so far as we travel the country in partnership with instagram, facebook and ca technologies. we want to hear from you too. so post a photo on instagram with the hashtag myvote and tell us for whom you're voting. your picture could be a part of our election coverage. let's just have some final thoughts here as we prepare for that trip to st. louis. david, what does donald trump, what do hillary clinton need to do on sunday? >> well, mike pence has lifted the spirits of republicans with a good night tonight, and i think it's a good ramp up and introduction. but still, for donald trump sunday night is make or break. he has to win that debate.

i don't think he can afford just to tie it. that doesn't help him very much. if he wants to reverse the momentum of this campaign, he has to win. and if he loses it's very hard to see -- i've never heard of a candidate losing two and coming back on a third debate. that's why i think sunday night is a big, big debate. i think hillary, she can have a tie. but you know, she clearly wants to win it and polish him off. >> in some ways the setting probably favors her. it's a town hall. she's done a lot of town halls. she's very good in those environments. and i think for donald trump it means it's going to be that much harder to prepare for because it's just such a different environment. body language is going to be very important. connecting with the people who were there in that audience is going to be really important for him. so he's got a tall order i think. and it's also important what does he do in the days leading up to the debate, right? >> how about practice? >> yeah. ideally, he has to practice. but again, i think it's probably harder to practice for a town hall than a one-on-one debate. >> but it's actually more necessary because a town hall

involves all kinds of blocking. people are moving around the stage. there's much more involved in preparing for a town hall debate. look, tonight one of the things that struck me is the candidates invoked real human beings. they told stories about people. there was some humanity to their presentations. there was very little of that in the first debate. this one requires it. this one requires you to interact with human beings and identify with their concerns. and so we'll see how they do. >> gloria, i have to say, donald trump has been having these huge events with big crowds and his supporters point out how much bigger his crowds are. she has town hall meetings. she has more practice with town hall meetings. >> right. and smaller groups, which she started out her campaign with smaller groups of people. and i've noticed in our town halls donald trump doesn't relate to the small audience very well. when he's asked a question, most candidates will stand up, talk to the person, thank you for

your question. and donald trump hasn't really done that. and we have to see more of that from him. >> if you missed any of the debate earlier this evening, you can see it in its entirety right now. good evening. from longwood university in farmwood, virginia. and welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2016. sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. i'm elaine quijano, anchor at cbsn and correspondent for cbs news. it's an honor to moderate this debate between senator tim kaine and governor mike pence. both are long-time public servants who are also proud fathers of sons serving in the u.s. marines. the campaigns have agreed to the rules of this 90-minute debate. there will be nine different segments covering domestic and foreign policy issues. each segment will begin with a question to both candidates, who will each have two minutes