your question. and donald trump hasn't really done that. and we have to see more of that from him. >> if you missed any of the debate earlier this evening, you can see it in its entirety right now. good evening. from longwood university in farmwood, virginia. and welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2016. sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. i'm elaine quijano, anchor at cbsn and correspondent for cbs news. it's an honor to moderate this debate between senator tim kaine and governor mike pence. both are long-time public servants who are also proud fathers of sons serving in the u.s. marines. the campaigns have agreed to the rules of this 90-minute debate. there will be nine different segments covering domestic and foreign policy issues. each segment will begin with a question to both candidates, who will each have two minutes to answer.

then i'll ask follow-up questions to facilitate a discussion between the candidates. by coin toss, it's been determined that senator kaine will be first to answer the opening question. we have an enthusiastic audience tonight. they've agreed to only express that enthusiasm once at the end of the debate and right now, as we welcome governor mike pence and senator tim kaine. [ cheers and applause ] >> good to be with you. >> good to be with you too. >> it's an honor. >> thank you. >> gentleman, welcome. it truly is a privilege to be with both of you tonight. i'd like to start with the topic of presidential leadership. 28 years ago, tomorrow night, lloyd bentsen said the vice

presidential debate was not about the qualifications for the vice president but about how if tragedy should occur the vice president has to step in without any margin for error, without time for preparation, to take over the responsibility for the biggest job in the world. what about your qualities, your skills, and your temperament equip you to step into that role at a moment's notice? senator kaine? >> elaine, thank you for being here tonight, and governor pence, welcome. it is so great to be back at longwood university in farmville, virginia. this is a very special place. 65 years ago a young, courageous woman, barbara johns, led a walkout of her high school, moten high school. she made history by protesting school segregation. she believed our nation was stronger together and that walkout led to the brown versus board of education decision that moved us down the path toward equality. i am so proud to be running with another strong history-making

woman, hillary clinton, to be president of the united states. i'm proud because her vision of stronger together, building an economy that works for all, not just those at the top, being safe in the world not only with a strong military but also strong alliances to battle terrorism and climate change, and also to build a community of respect, just like barbara johns tried to do 65 years ago. that's why i'm so proud to be her running mate. hillary told me why she asked me to be her running mate. she said the test of a clinton administration will not be the administration will not be the signing of a bill or the passage of a bill. it will be whether we can make somebody's life better, whether we can make a classroom better learning environment for schoolkids or teachers. whether we can make us safer. it's going to be about results. and she said to me, you've been a missionary and a civil rights lawyer, you've been a city councilman and mayor. you've been a lieutenant governor and governor and now a u.s. senator. i think you will help me figure

out how to govern this nation, so that we always keep in mind that the success of the administration is the difference we make in people's lives. and that's what i bring to the ticket. that experience, having served at all levels of government, but my primary role is to be hillary clinton's right-hand person and strong supporter as she puts together the most historic administration possible. and i relish that role. i'm so proud of her. i'll just say this, we trust hillary clinton, my wife and i, and we trust her with the most important thing in our life. we have a son deployed overseas in the marine corps right now. we trust hillary clinton as president and commander in chief. but the thought of donald trump as commander in chief scares us to death. >> governor pence? >> well, first off, thank you, elaine, and thank you to norwood university for their wonderful hospitality and the commission on presidential debates. it's deeply humbling for me to be here, to be surrounded by my wonderful family and senator kaine, it's an honor to be here with you as well. and i just -- i also want to say thanks to everyone that's

looking in tonight, who understands what an enormously important time this is in the life of our nation. for the last 7 1/2 years we've seen america's place in the world weakened. we've seen an economy stifled by more taxes, more regulation, a war on coal and a failing health care reform come to be known as obamacare and the american people know that we need to make a change. and so i want to thank all of you for being us tonight. i also want to thank donald trump for making that call and inviting us to be a part of this ticket. i have to tell you, i'm a small town boy from a place not too different from farmville. i grew up with a corn field in my backyard. my grandfather had immigrated to this country when he was about my son's age. my mom and dad built everything that matters in a small town in southern indiana. they built a family and a good name and a business, and they raised a family. and i dream someday of representing my hometown in

washington, d.c., but honestly, elaine, i never imagined, never imagined i would have the opportunity to be governor of the state that i love, let alone be sitting at a table like this, in this kind of a position. so to answer your question, i would say i -- i would hope that if -- if the responsibility ever fell to me in this role, that i would meet it with the way that i'm going to meet the responsibility should i be elected vice president of the united states. and that's to bring a lifetime of experience, a lifetime growing up in a small town, a lifetime where i've served in the congress of the united states, where i've led a state that works, in the great state of indiana. and whatever other responsibilities might follow from this, i -- i would hope and frankly i would pray to be able to meet that moment with that lifetime of experience. >> senator kaine, on the campaign trail you praised secretary clinton's character, including her commitment to public service. yet 60% of voters don't think she's trustworthy.

why do so many people distrust her? is it because they have questions about her e-mails and the clinton foundation? >> elaine, let me tell you why i trust hillary clinton. here's what people should look at as they look at a public servant. do they have a passion in their life that showed up before they were in public life? and have they held on to that passion throughout their life, regardless of whether they were in office or not, succeeding or failing. hillary clinton has that passion, from a time as a kid in a methodist youth group in the suburbs of chicago, she has been focused on serving others with a special focus on empowering families and kids. as a civil rights lawyer in the south, with the children's defense fund, first lady of arkansas and this country, senator, secretary of state, it's always been about putting others first. and that's a sharp contrast with donald trump. donald trump always puts himself first. he built a business career in the words of one of his own campaign staffers, off the backs of the little guy.

and as a candidate, he started his campaign with a speech where he called mexicans rapists and criminals and he has pursued the discredited and really outrageous lie that president obama wasn't born in the united states. it is so painful to suggest that we go back to think about these days where an african-american could not be a citizen of the united states. and i can't imagine how governor pence can defend the insult-driven selfish me-first style of donald trump. >> governor pence, let me ask you, you have said that donald trump is "thoughtful, compassionate, and steady." yet 67% of voters feel that he is a risky choice, and 65% feel that he does not have the right kind of temperament to be president. why do so many americans think mr. trump is simply too erratic? >> let me say first and foremost that senator, you and hillary clinton would know a lot about an insult-driven campaign. it really is remarkable. at a time when literally, in the wake of hillary clinton's tenure as secretary of state, where she

was the architect of the obama administration's foreign policy, we see entire portions of the world, particularly the wider middle east, literally spinning out of control. the situation we're watching hour by hour in syria today is a result of the failed foreign policy and the weak foreign policy that hillary clinton helped lead in this administration and create. the newly emboldened aggression of russia, whether it was in ukraine or -- >> you guys love russia. you both -- >> their heavy-handed approach. >> you both have said vladimir put zinn a b putin is a better -- >> we'll get to russia. >> these guys have praised vladimir putin as a great leader. >> we have that coming up. in the meantime -- >> senator, i must have hit a nerve here. because -- >> why the disconnect? >> at a time of great challenge in the life of this nation, where we've weakened america's place in the world, stifled america's economy, the campaign of hillary clinton and tim kaine has been an avalanche of insults. look, to get to your question about trustworthiness, donald

trump has built a business through hard times and through good times. he's brought an extraordinary business acumen. he's employed tens of thousands of people in this country. >> and paid a few taxes and lost $1 billion a year. >> but why the disconnect with your running mates? >> but there's a reason why people question the trustworthiness of hillary clinton. and that's because they're paying attention. i mean, the reality is, when she was secretary of state, senator, come on, she had a clinton foundation accepting contributions from foreign governments -- >> you are donald trump's apprentice. let me talk about this -- >> senator, i think i'm still on my time. >> isn't this a discussion. >> this is our open discussion. >> let's talk about -- >> well, let me interrupt you and finish my sentence if i can. >> finish your sentence. >> the clinton administration accepted foreign contributions from foreign governments and foreign donors while she was secretary of state -- >> okay, now i can weigh in --

>> she had a private server -- >> senator -- >> keep that pay to play -- >> governor pence doesn't think the world's going so well and he's going to say it's everybody's fault -- >> do you? >> let me tell you this. when secretary clinton became secretary of state, governor pence, do you know osama bin laden was alive? >> yes. >> did you know that we had 175,000 troops deployed on the battlefield in iraq and afghanistan? did you know iran was racing to a nuclear weapon and russia was expanding its stockpile? under secretary clinton's leadership, she was part of the national team, public safety team that went after and revived the dormant hunt against bin laden and wiped him off the face of the earth. she worked to deal with the russians to reduce their came weapons stockpile. she worked a tough negotiation with nations around the world to eliminate the iranian nuclear weapons program without firing a shot. >> to eliminate the iranian nuclear weapons program? >> absolutely. without firing a shot. and instead of 175,000 american troops deployed overseas, we now have 15,000. >> right. and we -- >> these are very, very --

>> and iraq has been overrun by isis. because hillary clinton failed to renegotiate -- >> if you want to send more american troops to iraq-u propose that. >> hillary clinton failed to renegotiate a status of forces agreement -- >> no, that is incorrect. >> gentlemen -- >> we removed all of our troops from iraq and isis -- >> i'd like to move on -- >> -- isis was conjured up in that vacuum -- >> i would like to -- >> -- in overrun areas of iraq. >> president bush said we would leave iraq at the end of 2011. and elaine, iraq didn't want our troops to stay and they wouldn't give us the protection for our troops. and guess what. if a nation where our troops are serving does not want us to stay, we're not going to stay without their protection. >> it was a failure of the secretary of state -- >> we need to move on to the >> next topic, gentlemen. >> if governor pence wants to put more troops in iraq -- >> there are a lot of people wondering about the economy. >> right. >> let's turn to the issue of the economy. >> okay. >> according to the nonpartisan committee for a responsible federal budget, neither of your economic plans will reduce the growing $19 trillion gross national debt. in fact, your plans would add

even more to it. both of you were governors who balanced state budgets. are you concerned that adding more to the debt could be disastrous for the country? governor pence? >> i think the fact that under this past administration of which hillary clinton was a part we've almost doubled the national debt is atrocious. i mean, i'm very proud of the fact that i come from a state that works, the state of indiana has balanced budgets. we cut taxes, we've made record investments in education and in infrastructure, and i still finished my term with $2 billion in the bank. that's a little bit different than when senator kaine was governor here in virginia. he actually -- he actually tried to raise taxes by about $4 billion. he left his state about $2 billion in the hole. in the state of indiana, we've cut unemployment in half. unemployment doubled when he was governor. but i think he's a very fitting running mate for hillary clinton, because in the wake of a season where american families are struggling in this economy

under the weight of higher taxes and obamacare and the war on coal and the stifling avalanche of regulation coming out of this administration, hillary clinton and tim kaine want more of the same. it's really remarkable that they're advocating a trillion dollars in tax increases. which i get that. you tried to raise taxes here in virginia and were unsuccessful. but $1 trillion in tax increases, more regulation, more of the same war on coal, and more of obamacare that now even former president bill clinton calls obamacare a crazy plan. but hillary clinton and tim kaine want to build on obamacare. they want to expand it into a single-payer program and for all the world hillary clinton thinks obamacare is great stuff. donald trump and i have a plan to get this economy moving again the way it worked in the 1980s and in the 1960s, and that is by lowering taxes across the board for small businesses and family farms, ending the war on coal that's hurting jobs and hurting

this economy even here in virginia. repealing obamacare lock, stock, and barrel, and repealing all of the executive orders that barack obama has signed that are stifling economic growth in this economy. we can get america moving again, put on top of that the kind of trade deals that'll put the american worker first, and you've got a prescription for real growth. and when you get the economy growing, elaine, that's when you can deal with the national debt. when we get back to 3.5% to 4% growth, which donald trump's plan will do, then we're going to have the resources to meet our nation's needs at home and abroad, and we're going to have the ability to bring down the national debt. >> senator kaine? >> elaine, on the economy, there's a fundamental choice for the american electorate. do you want a you're hired the president in hillary clinton or do you want a you're fired president in donald trump? i don't think that's such a hard choice. hillary and i have a plan that's on the table that's a you're hired plan. five components. first thing we do is we invest in manufacturing, infrastructure, and research into clean energy jobs of tomorrow. second thing is we invest in our

workforce. from pre-k education to great teachers to debt-free college and tuition-free colleges for families that make less than $125,000 a year. third, we promote fairness by raising the minimum wage, so you can't work full-time and be under the poverty level, and by paying women equal pay for equal work. fourth, we promote small business growth, just as we've done in virginia, to make it easier to smart and grow small businesses. hillary and i each grew up in small business families. my dad who ran an iron working and welding shop is here tonight. and fifth, we have a tax plan that targets tax relief to middle class individuals and small businesses. and asks those at the very top who have benefited as we've come out of recession to pay more. the trump plan is a different plan. it's a "you're fired" plan. and there's two key elements to it. first, donald trump said wages are too high. and both donald trump and mike pence think that we ought to eliminate the federal minimum wage. mike pence, when he was in congress, voted against raising

the minimum wage above $5.15. and he has been a one-man bulwark against minimum wage increases in indiana. the second component is no more tax breaks for those at the very top. trillions of dollars of tax breaks for people just like donald trump. the problem with it, elaine, is that's exactly what we did ten years ago and it put the economy into the deepest recession since the 1930s. independent analysts say the clinton plan would grow the economy by 10.5 million jobs. the trump plan would cost 3.5 million jobs. and donald trump, why would he do this? because his tax plan basically helps him, and if he ever met his promise and he gave his tax returns to the american public like he said he would, we would see just how much his economic plan is really a trump-first plan. >> on that point, governor pence, recently "the new york times" released part of mr. trump's 1995 tax return and reported that he could have avoided paying federal income taxes for years.

yesterday mr. trump said he brilliantly used the laws to pay as little tax as legally possible. does that seem fair to you? >> well, first, let me say i appreciated the "you're hired," "you're fired" thing, senator. you used that a lot and i think your running mate used a lot of pre-done lines. look, what you all just heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending, move deficits, more debt, more government. and if you think that's all working, then you look at the other side of the table. i mean, the truth of the matter is, the policies of this administration, which hillary clinton and senator kaine want to continue, have run this economy into a ditch. we're in the -- >> 15 million new jobs? >> -- slowest economic recovery since the great depression. >> 15 million -- >> governor, my question was -- >> there are millions more people living in poverty today than the day that barack obama with hillary clinton at his side stepped into the oval office --

>> the poverty level improved dramatically between 2014 and 2015. >> honestly, senator, you can roll out the numbers and the sunny side, but people in scranton know different. people in ft. wayne, indiana, know different. this economy is struggling. and the answer to this economy is not more taxes, it's -- >> but it's not to give away tax relief to the folks at the top. i am interested in hearing whether he'll defend his running mate's not releasing taxes, and not paying taxes. >> absolutely, i will. >> governor, with all due respect, the question was about whether it seems fair to you that mr. trump said he brilliantly used the laws to pay as little tax as legally possible. >> well, this is probably the difference between donald trump and hillary clinton and senator kaine. and hillary clinton and senator kaine, and god bless you for it, career public servants, that's great. donald trump is a businessman, not a career politician. he actually built a business. those tax returns that came out publicly this week show that he faced some pretty tough times 20 years ago. but like virtually every other business including the "new york times" not too long ago, he used

what's called net operating loss. we have a tax code, senator, that actually is designed to encourage entrepreneurship -- >> but why won't he release his tax returns? >> well, we're answering the question about a business thing. >> i do want to come back to that. >> his tax returns showed that he went through a very difficult time but he used the tax code just the way it's supposed to be used. and he did it brilliantly. >> how do you know that? you haven't seen his tax returns. >> because he's created a business that's worth billions of dollars. >> how do you know that? >> and with regard to paying taxes, this whole riff about not paying taxes and people saying he didn't pay taxes for years, donald trump has created tens of thousands of jobs, and he's paid payroll taxes -- >> elaine, let me talk about this. >> senator, i'll give you about 30 seconds to respond and i have a question on social security for you -- >> hillary clinton are going to raise taxes and donald trump and i are going to cut them. >> donald trump started this campaign in 2014 and he said, if i run for president, i will absolutely release my taxes. he's broken his first promise. >> and he will. >> he's broken his first

promise. >> second he stood -- >> and he he hasn't broken his promise. >> he stood on the stage last week and when hillary said, you haven't been paying taxes, he said, "that makes me smart." so it's smart not to pay for our military? it's smart not to pay for veterans? it's smart not to pay for teachers? and i guess all of us who do pay for those things, i guess were stupid. and the last thing i'll say -- >> senator, do you take all the deductions you're entitled to? >> the last thing i want to ask governor pence is -- >> i do. >> -- governor pence had to give donald trump his tax returns to show that he was qualified to be vice president. donald trump must give the american public his tax returns to show that he's qualified to be president, and he's breaking his promise. >> elaine, i have to respond to this. >> you get very little time. 20 seconds. >> i'll be very respectful. look, donald trump has filed over 100 pages of financial disclosure, which is what the law requires. >> but he said he would release his tax returns. >> the american people can review that. and he's going -- senator, he's going to release his tax returns when the audit is over. >> gentleman, i need to ask you about social security -- >> richard nixon released tax returns when he was under audit.

if you can't meet nixon's standard -- >> gentleman, the people at home cannot understand either one of you when you speak over each other. i would please ask you to wait until it is that the other is finished. >> all right. we're having fun up here. >> senator kaine, on the issue of social security, in 18 years when the social security trust funds run out of money, you'll be 76. the committee for a responsible federal budget estimates your benefits could be cut by as much as $7,500 per year. what would your administration do to prevent this cut? >> first, we're going to protect social security, which is one of the greatest programs that the american government has ever done. it happened at a time when you would work your whole life, your whole life, raising your kids, working, being a little league coach or a sunday school teacher and then you would retire into poverty. and social security has enabled people to retire with dignity and overwhelmingly not be in poverty. we have to keep it solvent. and we will keep it solvent. and we'll look for strategies like adjusting the payroll tax cap upward in order to do that. here's what hillary and i will

not do. and i want to make this very plain. we will never, ever engage in a risky scheme to privatize social security. donald trump wrote a book and he said social security is a ponzi scheme and privatization would be good for all of us. and when congressman pence was in congress, he was the chief cheerleader for the privatization of social security, even after president bush stopped pushing for it, congressman pence kept pushing for it. we're going to stand up against efforts to privatize social security, and we'll look for ways to keep it solvent going forward, focusing primarily on the payroll tax cap. >> governor pence, i'll give you an opportunity to respond. >> well, thanks, elaine. there they go again. okay. >> go read the book. >> all donald trump and i have said about social security is we're going to meet our obligations to our seniors. that's it. >> go read the book. >> we've said we're going to meet the obligations of medicare. that's what this campaign is really about, senator. i get, this is -- this is the

old scare tactic that they roll out -- >> but you have a voting record, governor. >> and i get all of that. i just, look -- >> i -- >> there's a question that you asked earlier -- >> i can't believe you won't defend your own voting record. >> i have to go back, too. well, look, i -- you're running with hillary clinton, who wants to raise taxes by $1 trillion, increase spending by $2 trillion, and you say you're going to keep the promises of social security. donald trump and i are going to cut taxes, we're going to -- >> you're not going to cut taxes. you're going to raise taxes on the middle class. >> -- so we can meet the obligations of social security and medicare. if we stay on the path that your party has us on, we're going to be in a mountain range of debt. and we're going to face hard choices -- >> gentleman, i want to move on now. >> you did ask this question about debt, and the debt explosion on the trump plan is much, much bigger than anything on the clinton side. >> all right. let me move on now to the issue of law enforcement and race relations. law enforcement and race relations. after the dallas police shooting, police chief david

brown said, quote, we're asking cops to do too much in this country. every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. not enough mental health funding, not enough drug addiction funding, schools fail, let's give it to the cops. do we ask too much of police officers in this country? and how would you specifically address the chief's concerns? senator kaine? >> elaine, i think that's a very fair comment. i think we put a lot on police shoulders. and this is something i got a lot of scar tissue and experience on. i was a city councilman and mayor in richmond. and when you i came in, we had one of the highest homicide rates in the united states. we fought very, very hard over the course of my time in local office with our police department and we reduced our homicide rate nearly in half. and when i was governor of virginia, we worked hard, too. and we did something we had really wanted to do. for the first time ever, we cracked the top ten, ten safest states. because we worked together. here's what i learned as a mayor and a governor.

the way you make communities safer and the way you make police safer is through community policing. you build the bonds through the community and police force, build bonds of understanding, and then when people feel comfortable in their communities, that gap between the police and the communities they serve narrows. and when that gap narrows, it's safer for the communities and it's safer for the police. that model still works across our country, but there are some other models that don't work. an overly aggressive, more militarized model. donald trump recently say we need to do more stop and frisk around the country. that would be a big mistake. because it polarizes the relationship between the police and the community. so here's what we'll do. we'll focus on community policing. we will focus on and hillary clinton has rolled out a really comprehensive mental health reform package that she worked on with law enforcement professionals, and we will also fight the scourge of gun violence in the united states.

i'm a gun owner. i'm a strong second amendment supporter, but i've got a lot of scar tissue, because when i was governor of virginia there was a horrible shooting at virginia tech, and we learned that through that painful situation that gaps in the background record check system should have been closed and it could have prevented that crime, so we're going to o'work to do things like close background record checks. one of those killed at virginia tech was a 70-plus-year-old romanian holocaust survivor. he'd survived the holocaust. then he survived the soviet union takeover of his country. but then he was a visiting professor at virginia tech and he couldn't survive the scourge of gun violence. we can support the second amendment and do things like background record checks and make us safer, and that will make police safer too. >> governor pence? >> you know, my uncle was a cop, a career cop, on the beat in downtown chicago. he was my hero when i was growing up. and we'd go up to visit my dad's family in chicago, my three brothers and i would marvel at

my uncle when he would come out in his uniform, sidearm at his side. police officers are the best of us. and the men and women, white, african-american, latino, asian, hispanic, they put their lives on the line every single day. and let my say, at the risk of agreeing with you, community policing is a great idea. it's worked in the hoosier state. and we fully support that. donald trump and i are going to make sure that law enforcement have the resources and the tools to be able to really restore law and order to the cities and communities in this nation. it's probably, probably why the 330,000 members of the fraternal order of police endorsed donald trump as the next president of the united states of america, because they see his commitment to them. they see his commitment to law and order. but they also -- they also hear

the badmouthing, the badmouthing that comes from people that seize upon tragedy in the wake of police action shootings as a reason to use a broad brush to accuse law enforcement of implicit bias or institutional racism. and that really has got to stop. i mean, when an african-american police officer in charlotte named brently vincent, an all-star football player who went to liberty university here in the state, came home, followed his dad into law enforcement, joined the force in charlotte in 2014, was involved in a police action shooting that claimed the life of keith lamont scott, it was a tragedy. i mean, we -- we mourn with those who mourn. we grieve with those who grieve. and we're saddened at the loss of life. but hillary clinton actually referred to that moment as an example of implicit bias in the police force, where she used -- when she was asked in the debate a week ago whether there was

implicit bias in law enforcement, her only answer was that there's implicit bias in everyone in the united states. i just think -- >> can i just -- >> -- what we ought to do is we ought to stop seizing on these moments of tragedy. we ought to assure the public that we'll have a full and complete and transparent investigation whenever there's a loss of life, because of police action. but senator, please, you know, enough of this seeking every opportunity to demean law enforcement broadly by making the accusation of implicit bias every time tragedy occurs. >> elaine, people shouldn't be afraid to bring up issues of bias in law enforcement. and if you're afraid to -- >> i'm not afraid to bring that up. >> if you're afraid to have the discussion, you'll never solve it. so here's an example, heartbreaking, we would agree, this is a heartbreaking example. the guy, philando castile, who was killed in st. paul, he was a worker, a valued worker in a local school. and he was killed for no apparent reason in an incident that will be discussed and will

be investigated. but when folks went and explored this situation, what they found is that philando castile, they called him mr. rogers with dreadlocks in the school where he worked, the kids loved him, that he had been stopped by police 40 or 50 times before that fatal incident. and if you look at sentencing in this country, african-american and latinos get sentenced for the same crimes at very different rates. >> we need criminal justice reform. >> we do. >> indiana has passed criminal justice reform. >> but i want to say -- >> but that's not what you're talking about. >> -- those who say we should not be able to bring up and talk about bias in the system -- >> senator -- >> -- we'll never solve -- >> governor pence, governor pence -- >> when african-american police officers involved in a police action shooting involving an african-american, why would hillary clinton accuse that african-american police officer of implicit bias? >> i guess i can't believe you are defending the position that there is no bias and it's a topic -- >> governor pence, i have a question on that point. >> i did not make that statement. >> your fellow republican, governor pence, senator tim scott, who is african-american,

recently spoke on the senate floor. he said he was stopped seven times by law enforcement in one year. >> a u.s. senator. >> he said, "i have felt the anger, the frustration, the sadness, and the humiliation that comes with feeling like you're being targeted for nothing more than being just yourself." what would you say to senator scott about his experiences? >> well, i have the deepest respect for senator scott and he's a close friend. and what i would say is we need to adopt criminal justice reform nationally. i signed criminal justice reform in the state of indiana, senator, and we're very proud of it. i worked when i was in congress on the second chance act. we have got to do a better job recognizing and correcting the errors in the system that do reflect an institutional bias in criminal justice. but what donald trump and i are saying is let's not have the reflex of assuming the worst of

men and women in law enforcement. we truly do believe that law enforcement is not only -- >> elaine, can i -- >> so what would you say to senator scott, governor? >> law enforcement in this country is a force for good. they are the -- they truly are people that put their lives on the line every single day. but i would -- i would suggest to you what we need to do is assert a stronger leadership at the national level to support law enforcement. you just heard senator kaine reject stop and frisk. well, i would suggest to you that the families that live in our inner cities that are besieged by crime -- >> elaine, let me just -- >> governor, the question is about senator scott. what would you tell senator scott? >> elaine, if i could jump in. i've heard senator scott make that eloquent plea. and look, criminal justice is about respecting the law and being respected by the law. so there is a fundamental respect issue here. and i just want to talk about the tone that's set from the top. donald trump during his campaign has called mexicans rapists and

criminals. he's called women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. i don't like saying that in front of my wife and my mother. he attacked an indiana-born federal judge and said he was unqualified to hear a federal lawsuit because his parents were mexican. he went after john mccain, a p.o.w., and said he wasn't a hero because he'd been captured. he said african-americans are living in hell. and he perpetrated this outrageous and bigoted lie that president obama is not a u.s. citizen. if you want to have a society where people are respected and respect laws, you can't have somebody at the top who demeans every group that he talks about. and i just -- again, i cannot believe that governor pence will defend the insult-driven campaign that donald trump has run. >> all right. i want to turn to our next segment now, immigration. your running mates have both said that undocumented immigrants who have committed violent crimes should be deported. what would you tell the millions of undocumented immigrants who have not committed violent crimes? governor pence?

>> donald trump's laid out a plan to end illegal immigration once and for all in this country. we've been talking it to death for 20 years. hillary clinton and tim kaine want to continue the policies of open borders, amnesty, catch and release, sanctuary cities, all the things that are driving -- that are driving wages down in this country, senator, and also too often with criminal aliens in the country, it's bringing heartbreak. but donald trump has a plan that he laid out in arizona that will deal systemically with illegal immigration, beginning with border security, internal enforcement. it's probably why for the first time in the history of immigration and customs enforcement their union actually endorsed donald trump as the next president of the united states, because they know they need help to enforce the laws of this country. and donald trump has laid out a priority to remove criminal aliens, remove people who have overstayed their visas. and once we have accomplished

all of that, which will make our -- strengthen our economy, strengthen the rule of law in the country and make our communities safer once the criminal aliens are out, then we'll deal with those that remain. but i have to tell you, i was listening to the avalanche of insults that were coming out of senator kaine a minute ago -- >> these were donald -- >> it's my time, senator. >> it is in fact the governor's time. >> it's your two minutes. i apologize. >> i forgive you. he says ours is an insult-driven campaign. did you all just hear that? ours is an insult-driven campaign? to be honest with you, if donald trump had said all the things he said in the way you said you said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that hillary clinton leveled when she said that half of of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. it's -- she said they were irredeemable. they were not american. i mean, it's extraordinary. and then she labeled one after

another "ism" on millions of americans who believe that we can have a stronger america at home and abroad, who believe we can get this economy moving again, who believe that we can end illegal immigration once and for all. so senator, this insult-driven campaign, i mean -- >> governor -- >> that's small potatos compared to hillary clinton calling half of donald trump's supporters a basket of deplorables. >> hillary clinton said something on the campaign trail and the very next day she said, you know what, i shouldn't have said that. >> she said she shouldn't have said half. >> this is senator kaine's two minutes, please. >> yeah. so now we're even. look for donald trump apologizing to john mccain for saying he wasn't a hearing. did donald trum app poll jooiz for calling women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting -- >> she apologized for saying half -- >> governor, it's his two minutes. please. >> did donald trump apologize for taking after somebody in a twitter war and making fun of her weight? did he apologize for saying african-americans are living in hell? did he apologize for saying president obama was not even a

citizen of the united states? you will look in vain to see donald trump ever taking responsibility for anybody and apologizing. immigration. there's two plans on the table. hillary and i believe in comprehensive immigration reform. donald trump believes in deportation nation. you've got to pick your choice. hillary and i want a bipartisan reform that will put keeping families together as the top goal second, that will help focus enforcement efforts on those who are violent. third, that will do more border control. and fourth, that will provide a path to citizenship for those who work hard, pay taxes, play by the rules and take criminal background record checks. that's our proposal. donald trump proposes to deport 16 million people. 11 million who are here without documents. and both donald trump and mike pence want to get rid of birthright citizenship. so if you're born here but your parents don't have documents, they want to eliminate that. that's another 4 1/2 million people. these guys -- and donald trump has said it.

deportation force. they want to go house to house, school to school, business to business, and kick out 16 million people. and i cannot -- >> that's nonsense. >> i cannot believe that governor pence would sit here and defend his running mate's claim that we should create a deportation force so that they'll all be gone. >> senator, we have a deportation force, it's called immigrations and customs enforcement. and the union for immigration and customs enforcement for the first time in their history endorsed donald trump to be the next president of the united states -- >> so you like the 16 million deportation plan? >> senator, that's nonsense. look, what you just heard is they have a plan for open borders, amnesty, that's -- >> our plan is like ronald reagan's plan from 1986. >> they call it comprehensive immigration reform on capitol hill. we all know the routine. it's amnesty. and you heard one of the last things he mentioned was border security. that's how washington always plays it. >> no, i -- >> governor -- >> -- three years ago and governor pence was against it. >> governor, mr. trump has said --

>> a nation without borders is not a nation. donald trump is committed to restoring the borders of this nation -- >> so governor, how would these millions of undocumented immigrants leave? would they be forcibly removed? >> i think donald trump laid out a series of priorities that doesn't end with border security, it begins with border security. and after we secure the border, not only build a wall, but beneath the ground and in the air, we do internal enforcement, but he said the focus has to be on criminal aliens. we just -- we just had a conversation about law enforcement. we just had a conversation about the violence that's besetting our cities. the reality is that there's hardbreak and tragedy that has struck american families, because people that came into this country illegally are now involved in criminal enterprise and activity, and we don't have the resources or the will to deport them systemically. donald trump has said we're going to move those people out, people who have overstayed their visas. we're going to enforce the law of this country.

we're going to strengthen immigrations and customs enforcements with more resources and more personnel to be able to do that. and then donald trump has made it clear, once we've done all of those things, that we're going to reform the immigration system that -- >> i just have to correct governor pence -- >> -- that people can come into this country. that's the order that you should do it. border security, removing criminal aliens, upholding with law, and then senator, i'll work with you when you go back to the senate, i promise you. we'll work with you to reform the immigration system. >> i look forward to working together in whatever capacities we serve in, but i just want to make it very, very clear, that he's trying to fuzz up what donald trump has said. when donald trump spoke in phoenix, he looked the audience in the eye and he said, no, we're building the wall and we're deporting everybody. he said, quote, "they will all be gone." "they will all be gone." and this is one of those ones where you can just go to the tape on it and see what donald trump has said. and -- >> he's talking about criminal aliens. >> and to add to it, and to add to it, and to add to it, we are a nation of immigrants.

mike pence and i both are descended from immigrant families. some things that weren't so great maybe were said about the irish when they came. but we've done well by absorbing immigrants and it's made our nation stronger. when donald trump says mexicans are rapists and criminals, mexican immigrants. when donald trump says about your judge, a hoosier judge, he said judge curiel was unqualified to hear a case because his parents were mexican, i can't imagine how you could defend that. >> gentleman, i would like to shift now to the threat of terrorism. do you think the world today is a safer or more dangerous place than it was eight years ago? has the terrorist threat increased or decreased? senator kaine? >> the terrorist threat has decreased in some ways because bin laden is dead. the terrorist threat has decreased in some ways because an iranian nuclear weapons program has been stopped. the terrorist threat to united states troops has been decreased in some ways because there's not 175,000 in a dangerous part of

the world, there's only 15,000. but there are other parts of the world that are challenging. let me tell you this. to beat terrorism, there's only one candidate who can do it and it's hillary clinton. remember hillary clinton was the senator from new york on 9/11. she was there at the world trade center when they were still searching for victims and survivors. that's seared onto her. the need to beat terrorism. and she's got a plan to do it. she was part of the national security team that wiped out bin laden. here's her plan to defeat isil. first, we've got to keep taking out their leaders on the battlefield. she was part of the team that got bin laden and she will lead the team that will get abu bakr al baghdadi, the head of isis. second we've got to disrupt financing networks. third disrupt their ability to recruit on the internet in their safe havens. but fourth, we also have to work with allies to share and surge intelligence. that's the hillary clinton plan. she's got the experience to do it. donald trump. donald trump can't start a twitter war with miss universe without shooting himself in the foot.

donald trump doesn't have a plan. he said, i have a secret plan, and then he said, "um, i know more than all the generals about isil." and then he said, "i'm going to call the generals to help me figure out a plan." and finally he said, "i'm going to fire all the generals." he doesn't have a plan. but he does have dangerous ideas. here's four. he trash talks the military. the military is a disaster, john mccain's no hero, the generals need to all be fired and i know more than them. he wants to tear up alliances. nato is obsolete and we'll only work together with israel if they pay big league. third, he loves dictators. he's got kind of a personal mt. rushmore, vladimir putin, kim jong-un, moammar gadhafi, and saddam hussein. >> oh, come on. >> and last and most dangerously, donald trump believes, donald trump believes that the world will be safer if more nations have nuclear weapons. he's said saudi arabia should get them, japan should get them, korea should get them. and when he was confronted with this and told, wait a minute,

terrorists could get those, proliferation could lead to nuclear war, here's what donald trump said, and i quote, "go ahead, folks, enjoy yourselves." i'd love to hear governor pence tell me what's so enjoyable or comical about nuclear war. >> governor pence? >> did you work on that one a long time? because that had a lot of really creative lines in it. >> well, i'm going to see if you can defend any of it. >> look, i can defend -- i can make very clear to the american people, after traveling millions of miles as our secretary of state, after being the architect of the foreign policy of this administration, america's less safe today than it was the day that barack obama became president of the united states. it's absolutely inarguable. we've weakened america's place in the world. it's been a combination of factors but mostly it's been a lack of leadership. i will give you, and i was in washington, d.c. on 9/11. i saw the clouds of smoke rise from the pentagon. >> i was in virginia. where the pentagon's located. >> i know you were. we all lived there that day as a

nation. it was heartbreaking. and i want to give this president credit for bringing osama bin laden to justice. but the truth is, osama bin laden led al qaeda. our primary threat today is isis. and because hillary clinton failed to renegotiate a status of forces agreement that would have allowed some american combat troops to remain in iraq and secure the hard-fought gains the american soldier had won by 2009, isis was able to be literally conjured up out of the desert and it's overrun vast areas that the american soldier had won in operation iraqi freedom. my heart breaks for the likes of lance corporal scott zubows kichlt. he fell in fallujah in 2005. he fought hard through some of the most difficult days in "operation iraqi freedom." and he paid the ultimate sacrifice to defend our freedom

and secure that nation. and that nation was secured in 2009. but because hillary clinton and barack obama failed to provide a status of forces agreement and leave sufficient troops in there, we are back at war. the president has just ordered more troops on the ground. we are back at war in iraq. and scott zubowski, whose mom would always come to memorial day events in newcastle, indiana to see me and i'd always give her a hug and tell her we're never going to forget her son, and we never will, scott zubowski and the sacrifice the american soldiers made, were squandered in iraq because this administration create aid vacuum in which isis was able to grow. and the reference to the iranian deal, the iranian deal that hillary clinton initiated, $150 billion -- >> stopping a nuclear weapons program without firing a shot? >> you didn't stop the nuclear weapons program -- >> yes, we did. even the israeli military says it's stopped. >> you virtually guaranteed that iran will someday become a nuclear power because there's no limitations once the period of time of the treaty comes off. >> governor pence, mr. trump has

proposed extreme vetting of immigrants from parts of the world that export terrorism. but that does not address many of the recent terrorist attacks in the united states such as the orlando nightclub massacre and the recent bombings in new york and new jersey. those were homegrown, committed by u.s. citizens and legal residents. what specific tools would you use to prevent those kinds of attacks? >> well, i think it's -- i think it's a great question, elaine. but it really does begin with us reforming our immigration system and putting the interests, particularly of the safety and security of the american people, first. i mean, donald trump has called for extreme vetting for people coming in to this country so that we don't bring people into the united states who are hostile to our bill of rights freedoms, who are hostile to the american way of life, but also donald trump and i are committed to suspending the syrian refugee

program and programs in immigration from the rest of the world that have been compromised by terrorism. hillary clinton and tim kaine want to increase the syrian refugee program by 500 -- >> elaine, i want to tell you about our plan -- >> the question is about homegrown terrorists. >> but first, let's make sure we're putting the safety and security of the american people first instead of hillary clinton expanding the -- >> or instead of you violating the constitution by blocking people based on their national origin rather than whether they're dangerous. >> that's not -- that's absolutely false. >> that's what the 7th circuit decided. here's the difference. we have different views on refugee issues and on immigration. hillary and i want to do enforcement based on are people dangerous. these guys say all mexicans are bad. >> absolutely false. >> and with respect to refugees we want to keep people out if they're dangerous. donald trump said keep them out if they're muslim. mike pence put a program in place to keep them out if they're from sir quaia. and yesterday an appellate court with three republican judges struck down the pence plan and said it was discriminatory. >> those judges said --

>> we should focus on danger, not upon discrimination. >> elaine, to your point, those judges said it's because there wasn't any evidence yet that isis had infiltrated the united states. well, germany just arrested three syrian refugees -- >> >> but they told you there's right way and a wrong way to do it. >> if you're going to be critical, that's fair game. after two syrian refugees were involved in the attack of paris 9/11, as governor of the state of indiana i have no higher priority than the safety and security of the people of my state -- >> governor pence -- >> and if i'm vice president of the united states and donald trump is president, we're going to put the safety and security of the american people -- first. >> can we just be clear, hillary and i will do immigration enforcement and vet refugees based on whether or not they're dangerous, we won't discriminate you from the country you come from and the religion you are -- >> the director of the fbi or

homeland security said we can't know for certain who these people are coming from syria. >> yes, we can and when we don't let them know, we don't let them in. >> the fbi and homeland security said we can't know for certain. you've got to err on the safety and security of the american people, senator. >> by trashing all muslims? >> senator kaine, let me ask you this, secretary clinton has talked about an intelligence surge. >> yes. >> what exactly would an intelligence surge look like and how would that help identify terrorists with no operational connection to a foreign terrorist organization? >> intelligence is two thirds, first, it's dramatically expanding our intelligence capacities by hiring great professionals but also we've got some of the best intel and cyber employees in the world in the united states working for many of the private sector companies so involves work increase, and

some of the partnerships in the intel partnerships in the private sector so we can with constitutional principles, gather more intelligence, but the second piece is really, really important, it also means creating stronger intelligence. you gather intelligence and share your intelligence back and forth with allies and that's who you may be finding trying to recruit, coming to one country or the next. alliances are critical. that's why donald trump's claim that he wants to -- that nato is obsolete and we need to get rid of nato is so dangerous. >> that's not his plan. >> he said nato is obsolete, and if you put aside -- push aside your alliances, who you are going to share intelligence with? hillary clinton is the secretary of state who knows how to build alliances. she built the sanctions regime around the world that stopped the iranian intelligence program. it means better skill and capacity and better alliance. >> i'd like to turn to the tragedy in syria -- can i speak about the cyber security surge at all?

>> you can have 30 seconds, governor, quickly, please. >> i -- first, donald trump just spoke about this issue this week. we have got to bring together the best resources in this country to understand that cyber warfare is the new warfare of the asymmetrical enemies and i look forward if i'm privileged to work with you in the senate to make sure we resource that effort. >> we'll work together in whatever roles we have to. >> we have an intelligence, sir, but i will also tell you it's important in this moment to remember that hillary clinton had a private server in her home that had classified information on it -- >> 30 seconds is on up. >> drone strikes, e-mails from the president of the united states of america. her private sefbrver was subjec to being hacked. >> i'd like to ask you about syria. you've now had a minute. >> 2 -- >> the investigation concluded

not one prosecutor would take any additional steps. you don't get the decide the rights and wrongs of this. we have a justice system and the fbi director conclude -- - >> we are moving. 250,000 people, 100,000 of them children. >> that is absolutely false -- >> gentlemen, please -- >> the fbi did an investigation -- >> gentlemen? senator kaine, governor pence, please. i want to turn now to syria. 250,000 people, 100,000 people are under siege in syria. bunker buster bombs, and incendiary bombs are being dropped on by militaries. does the u.s. have a responsibility to protect civilians and prevent mass casualties? >> the united states of america needs to exercise strong

leadership to protect the vulnerable citizens in over 100,000 children in aleppo. clinton hillary clinton's top priority was the russian reset. after that, they took over crimea, and the small and bullying leader of russia is now dictating terms to the united states to the point where all the united states of america, the greatest nation on earth, just withdraws from talks about a cease fire while vladimir putin puts a missile defense in syria while he marshals the forces. we have got to begin to lean into this with broad shouldered american leadership. it begins by rebuilding our military, and the russians and the chinese have been making enormous investments in military.

we have the smallest navy since 1916 and the lowest number of troops since the end of world war. donald trump will project american strength in the world and build the military. about aleppo, about syria, i believe america ought to establish save zones so families and vulnerable families with children can move out of those areas, work with our arab partners realtime right now to make that happen. and secondly, i just have to tell you that the provocations by russia need to be met with american strength. and if russia chooses to be involved and continue to be involved in this barbaric attack on civilians in aleppo, the united states should be prepared to use military force to strike military targets and prevent them from this humanitarian crisis that is taking place in

aleppo. there's a broad range of other things we ought to do as well. we ought to deploy a missile defense shield to the czech republic and poland which hillary clinton and barack obama pulled back on out of not wanting to offend the russians in 2009. we need america strength on the world stage. when donald trump is president, the russians and other countries in the world will know they're dealing with a strong american president. >> hillary and i also believe the establishment of the zones in the provision of human aid with the resolution passed would be a very good idea. and hillary also has the ability to stand up to russia in a way that this ticket does not. donald trump, again and again has praised vladimir putin. it's clear he has business dealings with russians who are connected to putin. the trump campaign management team had to be fired because of the shadowy connections. governor pence made the odd

claim. he said vladimir putin is a better leader than president obama. vladimir putin has run his economy into the ground. he persecutes lgbt folks and journalists. if you don't know the difference between dictatorship and leadership, go back to a 6th grade civics class. i'll tell you what offends me. >> thoo that oh fenned me. >> he said donald trump will rebuild the military. no he won't. he's avoiding paying taxes. the story suggested he probably didn't pay taxes for about 18 years starting in 1995. that includes the years of 9/11. get this. on 9/11 hillary clinton and donald trump's hometown was attacked. by the worst terrorist attack in the history of the united states. young men and women, young men and women signed up to serve in the military to fight terrorism.

hillary clinton went to washington to get funds to rebuild her city and protect first responders, but donald trump was fighting a very different fight. it was a fight to avoid paying taxes so he wouldn't support the fight against terror -- >> my question was about aleppo. >> this is important, elaine. when a guy running for president will not support the troops, not support veterans, not support teachers, that's really important, and i said about aleppo, we do agree the notion is we have to create a humanitarian zone in northern zero. >> governor pence you mentioned a no fly zone. where would you propose a safe zone? how would you keep it safe? >> first, donald trump supports our troops. donald trump supports our veterans. >> he won't be taxes. >> donald trump has paid all the taxes that he's -- do you not take deductions? >> gentlemen, this is about syria. >> honestly, senator.

>> it is about our troops. >> i understand why you want to change the subject. and let me be clear on this russian thing. the larger question here -- >> do you think donald trump is smart to not pay taxtaxes? >> there's an old proverb that says the russian bear never dies. it just hibernates. and the truth is the weak and feckless foreign policy of hillary clinton and obama awakened an aggression in russia that first appeared a few years ago with their move into georgia now crimea and the wider area, and we fold our arms and say we're not having talks anymore. to answer your question, we need american strength. we need to marshal the resources of our allies in the region, and in the immediate, we need to act and act now to get people out of harm's why. >> how would the safe zones work and remain safe? >> the safe zones would have to

be as the senator said, there's already a framework for this that's been recognized by the international community. the united states of america needs to be prepared to work with our allies in the region to create a rout for safe passage and protect people in those areas including with a no fly zone. this is tough stuff. i served on the foreign affairs committee and traveled in and out of that region for ten years. i saw what the american soldier won, and to see the weak leadership that hillary clinton was the architect of -- >> let me come back and talk about -- >> it's troubling to me -- >> let's talk about the things he doesn't want to acknowledge. he doesn't want to acknowledge we stopped the iranian nuclear problem. >> you didn't. >> he doesn't want to acknowledge that it's a good thing, not a bad thing that we're down from 175,000 troops deployed overseas to 15,000.

donald trump's idea that other nations should get nuclear weapons is dangerous. ronald reagan said the problem with nuclear proliferation is that some fool or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event. i think that's who governor pence's running mate is. >> come on. senator, that was even beneath you and hillary clinton. that's pretty low. >> do you think we should have more nuclear weapons in the world and it'll make us safer? >> senator, ronald reagan also said nuclear war should never be fought because it can never be won, and the united states of america needs to make investments in modernizing our nuclear force for deterrents and assurance to our allies. let me go back to the iran thing.

he keeps saying that they -- hillary clinton who started the deal with the iranians prevented iran from getting a nuclear weapon. >> that's what the israeli -- >> that's not what israel thinks. >> check it. >> you wouldn't know that. i know you boycotted benjamin netanyahu's speech. >> i visited him in his office. >> you boycotted the speech. what the iran deal did was essentially guarantee -- when i was in congress i fought hard on a bipartisan basis with republican and democrat members to move forward the toughest sanctions. it literally in the history of the united states. >> and hillary used it to get a deal. >> the goal was always that we would only lift the sanctions if iran permanently renounced their nuclear -- they have not -- elaine, let me finish a sentence. they have not renounced their nuclear ambitions, and when the

deal's period runs out, there's no limitation on them obtaining weapons. >> very quickly senator. >> we need to talk about -- >> six times tonight i have said to governor pence, i can't imagine how you can defend your running mate's position on one issue after the next. and in all six cases he's refused to defend -- >> don't put words in my mouth. >> and yet, he is asking everybody to vote for somebody that he cannot defend. and i just think that could be underlined. >> let's talk about russia. this is the topic -- i will give you an opportunity to do that. >> i'll take them one at a time. >> more nations should get nuclear weapons. >> he never said that, senator. >> he said it. saudi arabia, south korea, japan. >> gentlemen, russia. vladimir putin invaded countries what steps if any would your administration take to counter his actions.

>> you have to be tough on russia. let's start with not praising vladimir putin as a great leader. donald trump and mike pence have said he's a great leader, and donald trump -- >> no q, we haven't. >> and donald trump has business dealings with russia that he refuse to disclose. hillary clinton has gone toe to toe with russia as secretary of state to do the new start agreement, to reduce russia's nuclear stockpile. she went toe to toe with russia and launched protests when they went to georgia. we've put punishing economic sanctions on russia that we need to continue. donald trump, on the other hand, didn't know that russia had invaded the crimea. >> that's nonsense. >> he was on a tv show a couple months back and said russia is not going into the ukraine, and he had to be reminded they had gone into the crimea two years before. >> he knew that.

>> clinton clinton has gone toe to toe with russia to work out a deal. she got them engaged to cap iran's nuclear weapons program and she stood up to them on issues such as syria and their invasion of georgia. you've got to have the ability to do that and hillary does. on the other hand, and donald trump you have somebody who praises vladimir putin all the time. america should really wonder about a president trump who had a campaign manager with ties to putin, proputin elements in the ukraine who had to be fired for that reason. they should wonder when donald trump is sitting down with vladimir putin, is it going to be america's bottom line or is it going to be donald trump's bottom line that he's going to be worried about with all his business dealings. this could be solved this donald trump would be willing to release his tax returns as he told the american public he would do. i know he's laughing with this -- >> what's it got to do with russia? >> donald trump has said i'm

doing business the russia. the only way the america public will see if he has a conflict of interest. >> he never said that. >> he has, actually. >> governor. >> well, thanks. just trying to keep up with the insult-driven campaign on the other side. >> you know, i'm just saying facts about your running mate. i know you can't defend him. >> i'm happy to defend him. don't put words on my mouth. i'm happy to defend him. most of what you said is false and the american people know that. >> i'll run through the list of things. >> senator, please, this is governor pence's two minutes. >> this is the alternative universe of washington d.c. versus reality. hillary clinton said her number one priority was a reset with russia. that reset resulted in the invasion of ukraine. after they'd infiltrated with little green men, russian soldiers dressing up. and then they moved all the way

into crcrimea. donald trump knew that happened. he was saying it's not going to happen again. the truth of the matter is that what you have in the rise of aggressive russia which is increased the influence in iran and now because of this deal is on a pathway in the future to obtain -- the leading state sponsor of terror in the world in iran now has a closer working relationship with russia because of hillary clinton and barack obama's foreign policy. and $150 billion and sanctions all being lifted. and then syria. it really is extraordinary. syria is imploding. you just asked a thoughtful question about the crisis in ie lep p aleppo. isis is head quartered in raqqa.

senator kaine still sits here, loyal soldier. i get that, and saying that the foreign policy of hillary clinton and barack obama somehow made the world more secure. i mean, it really is astonishing. >> we wiped tout leader of al qaeda. we stopped nuclear weapons. >> we delivered 400 million in cash as a ran some payment for americans held by the radicals in teheran. >> mr. trump said putin has no respect for hillary clinton and no respect for obama. why do you think he'll respect a trump/pence administration? >> strength. plain and simple. >> business deals. >> donald trump -- that's nonsense. >> donald trump's son says that the trump organization -- >> please, i'll give you a chance to respond. >> we're going to rebuild our military. and this whole putin thing, look, america is stronger than russia. our economy is 16 times larger

than the russian economy. america's political system is superior to the cony, corrupt capitalist system in russia in every way. when donald trump and i observe that as i've said in syria, in iran, in ukraine that the small and bullying leader of russia has been stronger on the world stage than this administration n that's stating painful facts. that's not an endorsement of vladimir putin. . >> this is one where it can go to the tape on it. but governor pence said, inarguably, vladimir putin is a better leader than barack obama. >> that is inaccurate. >> and i just think a guy -- >> i say he's been stronger on the world stage. >> no, you said leader. >> and i'll say this, governor. >> you just said better. >> if you mistake leadership for dictatorship and you can't tell

the difference, a country that's running its economy in the ground. >> this again? this is crazy. >> if you can't tell the difference you shouldn't be commander in chief. and donald trump's sons say they have these business dealings with russia. those could be disclosed with tax returns, but they refuse to do them. persons need to worry about whether donald trump will be looking out for america's bottom line or his bottom line. >> what went wrong with the reset? >> vladimir putin. he's a dictator. >> what would you do differently? >> he's not a leader. anybody who thinks otherwise doesn't know russian history or vladimir putin. hillary clinton knows who this guy is. john mccain said i look in his eyes and see can kgb. hillary has that same feeling. how do you deal with him? we have to deal with russia. there are areas where we can cooperate. it was hillary clinton who worked with russia on the new

start program. it was hillary clinton that worked with russia to get them engaged in a community of nations to stop the iranian nuclear weapons program without firing a shot. she's not going around praising vladimir putin as a great guy, but she knows how to negotiate tough deals. this is a very challenging part of the world, and we ought to have a commander in chief who is prepared and has done it rather than someone who goes around praising vladimir putin as a great leader. >> i'd like to ask about north korea, iran and the threat of nuke weapons. north korea conducted a powerful nuclear test. what steps would you take to prevent them from developing a nuclear armed missile capable of reaching the united states. governor pence. >> we need to make a commitment to rebuild the military, including modernizing our nuclear forces, and we also need an effective american diplomacy

that will marshal the resources of nations in the asian pacific rim to put pressure on north korea and kim jong-un to abandon his nuclear ambitions. the denuclearization to the korean peninsula. when donald trump is president of the united states, we're not going to have the kind of posture in the world that has russia invading crimea and ukraine and the chinese building new islands. south china sea and others flouting american power. we're going to go back to the days of peace through strength. i have to tell you that all this talk about tax returns, and i get it. you want to keep bringing that up. it must have been hit the focus group. hillary clinton and her husband set up a private foundation

called the clinton foundation. while he was secretary of state the clinton foundation accepted tens of millions of dollars from foreign governments, and foreign donors. now, you all need to know out there, this is basic stuff. foreign donors and certainly foreign governments cannot participate in the american political process. they cannot make financial contributions, but the clintons figured out a way to create a foundation where foreign donors could donate millions of dollars, and then we found that more than half of her private meetings when she was secretary of state were give ton major donors of the clinton foundation. when you talk about baseless rumors about russia and the rest, hillary clinton, you asked the trustworthy question at the beginning. >> your two minutes are up. >> they are looking at the pay to play politics she operated with the clinton foundation through her private server while

she was secretary of state. they're saying enough is enough. >> i'm going to talk about the foundation and then north korea. on the foundation, i am glad to talk about the foundation. the clinton foundation is one of the highest rated charities in the world. it provides aids drugs to about 11.5 million people. it helps americans deal with opioid overdoses. it gets higher rankings for its charity an that american red cross does. the clinton foundation does a lot of good work. hillary clinton as secretary of state took no action to benefit the foundation. the state department did an investigation, and they concluded that everything hillary clinton did as secretary of state was completely in the interest of the united states. so the foundation does good work, and hillary clinton as secretary of state acted in the interest of the united states. let's compare this with the trump organization and the trump foundation. the trump organization is an octopus like organization with tentacles all over the world

whose conflict of interest could only be known if donald trump would release his tax returns. he's refused to do it. his sons have said that the organization has a lot of business dealings in russia. and remember the trump organization is not a nonprofit. it's putting money into donald trump's pocket and into the pockets of his children. the clinton foundation is a nonprofit, and no clinton family member draws any salary. >> the trump foundation is nonprofit. >> donald trump has a foundation. it was just fined for illegally contributing foundation dollars to a political campaign of a florida attorney general. they made an illegal contribution and tried to hide it by disguising it as somebody else. and they donated it to someone who was investigating trump university. this is the difference between someone who does good work and somebody who is conflicted and

doing work around the world and won't share with the american public what he's doing and what the conflicts are. >> governor, i'll give you 30 seconds to respond, but this was about north korea, i'll remind you both. >> thank you. thank you. the trump foundation is a private family foundation. they give virtually every cent in the trump foundation to charitable causes. >> $20,000 portrait of donald trump? >> $0.10 on the dollar. it's been a platform for the clintons to travel the world. to have staff. but honestly, senator, we would know a lot more about it if hillary clinton would turn over the 33,000 e-mails that she refuses to turn over. they were in her private server. >> senator kaib kaine, if you had intention that north korea was about to launch a nuclear

armed missile capable of reaching the united states, would you take presemptive action? >> a president should take action to defend the united states. exactly what action? you'd have to determine your intelligence and how certain you were of the intention. but you would have to take action. you asked the question about how do we deal with the north korea? i'm on the foreign relations committee. we just did an extensive sanctions package against north korea, and the u.n. followed and did virtually the same package. often china will use their veto in the security council to veto a package like that. they supported the sanctions package, even though many of the sanctions are against chinese firms and financial institutions. so we're working together with china, and we need to. china is another relationship where it's competitive. it's also challenging. and in times like north korea,

we have to be able to cooperate. hillary understands that. we went once to china and stood up at a human right meeting and said womens rights are human rights. they didn't want her to say it, but she did. she's also worked on diplomatic deals with china. that's what it's going to take. the thing i would worry about is that donald trump owes about $650 million to banks, including the plabank of china. >> i'd like to turn to our next segment now. in this i'd like to focus on social issues. you have both been open about the role that faith has played in your lives. can you discuss in detail a time when you struggled to balance your personal faith and a public policy position? senator kaine? >> that's an easy one for me, elaine. it's an easy one. i'm fortunate. i grew up in a wonderful household. my mom and dad are sitting right

here. i was educated by people at a high school in kansas city. my 40th reunion in is ten days. i worked with missionaries nearly 35 years ago. they were the heros of my life. i try to practice my religion in a devout way and follow the teachings of my church in my own personal life. but i don't believe in this nation of first amendment nation where we don't raise any religion over the other, and we allow people to worship as they please, that the doctrines of any one religion should be mandated for others. for me the hardest struggle was the catholic church is against the death penalty and so am i. i was the governor of a state and the state law said it was a death penalty if the crime was heinous. i had to grapple with that. when i was running for governor i was attacked because of my position on the death penalty. i looked the voters in the eye and said, look, this is my

religion. i'm not going to change my religious practice to get one vote. but i know how to take an oath and uphold the law. if you e lek me, i will uphold the law. i was elected and i did. it was difficult, but in circumstances where i didn't feel like it was a case for clemency, i up held the law. it was a struggle, but i think it's important that those of us with deep faith lives don't feel like we can substitute our views for everybody else in the society regardless of their views. >> governor pence. >> it's a wonderful question. my christian faith is at the very heart of who i am. i was also raised in a wonderful family of faith. it was a church on sunday morning and grace before dinner, but my christian faith became real for me when i made a personal decision for christ when i was a freshman in

college, and i've tried to live that out however imperfectly every day of my life since, and with my wife at my side, we've followed a calling into public service where we've tried to keep faith with values that we cherish. and with regard to when i struggle, i appreciate and i have a great deal of respect for senator kaine's sincere faith. i do. >> that's shared. >> but for me, i would tell you that for me the sanctity of life preseeds the and gent principle where god says before you were formed in the womb, i knew you. for my first time in public life, i've sought to stand with compassion for the sanctity of life. the state of indiana has also sought to make sure we expand

alternatives in health care counselling for women, nonabortion alternatives. i'm also pleased that we're on our way in indiana to becoming the most proadoption state. if you're pro life, you should be pro adoption. but what i can't understand is with hillary clinton and now senator kaine at her side, is to support a practice like partial birth abortion. i mean, to hold to the view, and i know, senator kaine, you hold pro life views personally, but the very idea that a child that is almost born into the world could still have their life taken from them is just foreign to me. i can't conscious about a party that supports that, or that i know you've historically opposed taxpayer funding of abortion, but hillary clinton wants to repeal the long-standing provision in the law where we said we wouldn't use taxpayer dollars to fund abortions. for me, my faith thfs my life.

i try to spend a little time on my knees every day, but for me, it begins with cherishing the dignity, the worth, the value of every human life. >> elaine, this is a fundamental question. a fundamental question. hillary and i are both people out of religious backgrounds. we really feel like you should live fully and with enthusiasm the commands of your faith, but it is not the role of the public servant to mandate that for everybody else. let's talk about abortion and choice. let's talk about that. we support rowe versus wade and the constitutional right of american women to consult their own conscious, their own supportive partner, their own minister, but make their own decision about pregnancy. that's something we trust american women to do. and we don't think that women

should be punished as donald trump said they should, for making the decision to have an abortion. governor pence wants to repeal row versus said. he said he wants to put it in the ash heap of history. we have young people in the audience who weren't born before the decision. states could pass criminal laws to punish women if they made the choice to perm naterminate a pr. i think you should live your moral values, but the very last thing the government should do is have laws that would punish women who make reproductive choices, and that is the fundamental difference between a clinton/kaine ticket and a trutrum trump/pence ticket. >> it's not. we would never punish women who made the decision to end a pregnancy. >> why did he say that? >> he's not a polished

politician like you and hillary clinton. and so, you know, things don't always come out exactly the way he means them. >> well, there's a great line from the gospel of matthew. from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. when trump says those things, he's showing you who he is. >> senator, you whipped out that m mexican thing again. >> can you defend it? >> there are criminal aliens in this country who have come into this country illegally who are perpetrating violence. >> you want to -- >> he also said and many of them are good people. you keep leaving that out of your quote. if you want me to go there, i'll go there. there is a choice here, and it is a choice on life. i couldn't be more proud to be standing with donald trump. he's standing for the right to life. it's a principle that senator

kaine, and i'm gentle about this, because i really do respect you. it's a principle you embrace, and i've appreciated the fact that you've supported the height amendment which bans the use for tax dollars in the past. that's not hillary clinton's view. we can come together as a nation and create a culture of life, more and more young people today are embracing life because we know we are better for it. we can like mother teresa said at the prayer breakfast. let's welcome the children into our world. there are so many families around the country who can't have children. if we could improve the options so families that can't have children can adopt ready those children -- >> why don't you trust women to make this choice for themselvess? we can encourage people to support life. of course we can. but why don't you trust women? why doesn't donald trump trust women to make this choice for

themselves? that's what we ought to be doing in public life, living our lives of faith or motivation with enthusiasm and excitement. dialoguing about important issues, but on fundamental issues of morality, we should let women make their own decisions. >> a society can be judged by how they treat their most vulnerable. i believe it, and i couldn't be more proud than to be standing with a pro life candidate in donald trump. >> i have a final question. it's been a divisive campaign. senator kaine, if your ticket wins, what are you going to do to unify the country and reassure the people who voted against you? >> that's the important question. that may be the $64,000 question. it has been divisive. hillary is running a campaign about stronger together, and donald trump, and this is not directed at this man, except to the extent that he can't defend

donald trump. donald trump has run a campaign that's been about one insult after the next. we have to bring the country together. here's what we'll do. hillary clinton was first lady and then senator. i'm amazed as i talk to republican senators how well they regard and respect hillary clinton. she was on the armed services committee. she was on other committees. she worked across the aisle when she was first lady to get the chip program passed so that 8 million low income kids have health insurance in this country, including 150,000 people in indiana. she worked across the aisle after 9/11 to get health benefits for the first responders who bravely went into the towers and the pentagon. she worked to get benefits for tricare benefits for national guard members including in indiana and virginia. she has a track record of working across the aisle to make things happen. and i have the same track record. i was a governor of virginia

with two republican houses. and in the senate i have good working relationships across the aisle, because i think it's fine to be a democrat or republican or independent, but after election day, the goal is work together, and hillary clinton has a track record of accomplishment across the aisle that will inable here to do just that when we work with the new congress in january. >> governor, how will you unify everyone? >> thank you and thank you for a great discussion tonight. >> absolutely. >> thank you, senator. this is a challenging time in the life of our nation. weakened america's place in the world after the leadership of hillary clinton and barack obama on the world stage. it's been followed by an economy that is truly struggling, stifled by an avalanche of more taxes, more regulation, obama care, the war on coal, and the kind of trade deals that have put american workers in the backseat. i think the best way that we can bring people