with two republican houses. and in the senate i have good working relationships across the aisle, because i think it's fine to be a democrat or republican or independent, but after election day, the goal is work together, and hillary clinton has a track record of accomplishment across the aisle that will inable here to do just that when we work with the new congress in january. >> governor, how will you unify everyone? >> thank you and thank you for a great discussion tonight. >> absolutely. >> thank you, senator. this is a challenging time in the life of our nation. weakened america's place in the world after the leadership of hillary clinton and barack obama on the world stage. it's been followed by an economy that is truly struggling, stifled by an avalanche of more taxes, more regulation, obama care, the war on coal, and the kind of trade deals that have put american workers in the backseat. i think the best way that we can bring people together is through

change in washington d.c. i served in washington d.c. for 12 years in the congress and the united states. and i served with many republicans and democrats. men and women of good will. the potential is there to really change the direction of this country, but it's going to take leadership to do it. the american people want to see our nation standing tall on the world stage again. they want to see us supporting our military, rebuilding our military, commanding the respect of the world, and they want to see the american economy off to the races again. they want to see an american comeback. and donald trump's entire career has been about building. it's been about -- it's going through hardship just like a business person does and finding a way through smarts and resilience to fight forward and when donald trump becomes president of the united states, we're going to have a stronger america. when you hear him say he wants to make america great again, when we do that, i truly do

believe the american people are going to be standing taller. they're going to see the real change can happen after decades of talking about it. and when that happens, the american people are going to stand tall, stand together, and we'll have the kind of unity that's been missing for way too long. >> gentlemen, thank you so much. this concludes the vice presidential debate. my thanks to the candidates, the commission and to you for watching. please tune in this sunday for the second presidential debate at washington university in st. louis and the final debate on october 19th at the university of nevada las vegas. from farmville, virginia, good night. >> that's it. tim kaine and mike pence, they're debate. they're shaking hands. they've been called the nice guys on the respective tickets, but tonight it wasn't mr. nice guy all the time. governor pence and senator kaine going after each other, talking

over each other trying to defend their respective running mates. certainly that came through. jake, this was a lot more heated than a lot of us expected. but do you think either of these guys really got anywhere? >> three thoughts, wolf. first of all, stylistically, i think it's hard to conclude anything other than the fact that the governor pence is more polished. he is more accomplished a debater. senator kaine interrupted a lot more. and i think you have to give just on style, not on substance, to governor pence. second of all, this is a change election. what governor pence was discussing was change, and senator kaine was in the position of having to defend terrorism strategy, having to defend economic hardship, and i think that put senator kaine in a more awkward position. so, again, when it came to the broad brushed strokes of what they were discussing and their themes, governor pence was talking about change and it's a change election. but there's a big however here. the big however is this is a

change election, and the reason that donald trump is not up 15 points is because of concerns that voters have about things he's said and done. and tim kaine decided to make his debate strategy to talk about donald trump and things that donald trump has said and done. and over and over governor pence refused or declined to defend the things that kaine, tim kaine, quite accurately, for the most part, said that donald trump had said or done. so while on the stage, i think you to give it to governor pence, i wonder what the media coverage is going to be like over the next day or two as people go tamover and over thin that tim kaine said donald trump said he said, and mike pence declined to defend him. so i think the night goes to pence, but i don't know about the week. wolf this. >> all right. jake, dana, what was your major take away? >> i think one man's declining

to defend donald trump is another's not taking the bait, and that's what mike pence tried to avoid over and over again, not taking the bait. that made him kind of thein to donald trump's yang. he prepared and stayed calm and refused to give into what tim kaine was trying to do. he looked into the camera to try to connect with people at home. the question is will it matter in the end? will he bring voters along for the trump/pence ticket. maybe, just maybe people on the fence maybe going to go for trump, could look at mike pence and say at least he'll have him around. it's possible. on the tim kaine side of this, at the beginning he interrupted a lot, was clearly on his talking points which pence called him out on. then he got better and more comfortable. the question there is whether or not what kaine was trying to do,

which is to energize the base which hillary clinton needs, whether that's going to be successful. that appeared to be his goal is to get people excited again and even more excited about the clinton/kaine ticket. >> john king? >> number one. a lot of the things governor pence said are at odds with what donald trump has said. governor pence wasn't always debating just tim kaine. especially vladimir putin and syria and what governor pence was saying was at odd with things trump said or were things trump never said. he was giving more details and policy that we don't hear from donald trump. about style, governor pence has been around a while. he's a former talk show host, radio. he has the communications skills. one of the reasons hillary clinton has moved up in the polls is more enthusiasm among democrats after the first debate. i think this will energize republicans who were disappointed in the first

debate. i also can't count the number of e-mails from republicans saying oh, there's a republican in this race. because he talked about smaller government and less regulation and shrinking washington. he talks like a conservative. donald trump does not communicate like a conservative. a lot of republicans saying we wish that was our candidate. >> we got our results of a focus group watching of undecided voters. also an instant poll, people who watched the debate. we'll get a sense of who won it. >> we have our panel of experts here. let's get their immediate reaction to this vice presidential faceoff. gloria, what did you think? >> i think mike pence is better at attacking clinton than he is at defending donald trump. there were so many times that he

was pushed by tim kaine who said it over and over again, i can't imagine how you can defend trump. it was almost the new lock box of this debate. and pence didn't. i mean, every time he was sort of pushed, would you defend, there were a couple of times maybe he did on russia, but generally what he did was he tried to flip it. because he couldn't defend some of the things that donald trump has said, and i think they realized in their debate prep it was clear they were prepared for this, that they weren't going to take the debate. it's easier to get under donald trump's skin than mike pence's skin. i think kaine found that. he kept interrupting. he seemed a little overeager and overprepared at the beginning of the debate, but he kept coming back to this. we'll have to see if it's effective with our focus groups, but i think pence did a very good job given the difficulty he would have answering these kaine

assaults about donald trump. but i would also have to say that kaine in saying this is what donald trump said and reminding viewers, this is what he said, this is what he said, this is what he said, how can you defend it, and pence not defending it also made his point. >> david? >> i think tim kaine was asked to play a role here that he isn't comfortable. he's a positive character. he was asked to be kind of an attack dog here. i think he wasn't entirely comfortable in that role, and the strategy of interrupting, i think, was probably overdone. mike pence stylistically, as you point out, did well. i would point out that on the substance of some of the issues, yes, i thought pence was muscular in the foreign policy debate, although he seemed to e depart from donald trump including his approach to putin.

there were other issues on guns, on abortion, on immigration in which kaine did very well, and at the end of the debate, it was an extraordinary exchange, i thought. really, one of the better exchanges i've seen in debates where each of them discussed the issue of abortion. both member of faith, but tim kaine articulated a view that's a widely held view in the country, and mike pence stuck to his point of view which will exhilarate his base, but may exacerbate a problem that trump has with particularly with women. >> especially if you're trying to win over women voters in sub sushs outside of philadelphia, for example. >> right. and who knows if they stayed watching this that long and caught the tail end of discussions. i heard from a lot of democrats who felt that kaine did what he needed to do, which is be aggressive. i think he seemed overprepped in the beginning, it was almost like pence was playing a

rope-a-dope style. kaine was tossing out a lot of lines, and then pence said there you go again, borrowing a line from ronald reagan. but it was clear he had a plan. i mean, it was to talk about hillary clinton's record, to talk about clinthillary clinton plan in detail and turn it back to donald trump's record and talk about taxes and temperament. i think on that he scored for democrats, but i think pence did things that donald trump didn't do. he mentioned the clinton foundation and reframed the putin discussion as you talked about. and i think he was reassuring and confeversational. he was calm. in that way, i think a lot of republicans will be happy with the display tonight. i think the question is what happens tomorrow? what does donald trump say in whatever kind of gains that have been made tonight can donald trump keep that message that comes out of tonight? >> pence on points.

this was not a knockout. there was nothing that i think tim kaine did for which we needs to be embarrassed, but i think stylistically, i give it to governor pence. in fact, i'll say that mike pence is a better general election candidate than donald trump. he has better answers on russia, better answers on the clinton foundation, better answers on the e-mail, and can present those issues in a way that can grow the tent and not stay limited just to the base. one added footnote, i didn't like the pace. i didn't like the first 30 minutes. they weren't ten minute pods. i wish that would have gone at it more deeply, and i felt the opposite as the evening progressed, but it was mike pence's night. >> we're going to pamela brown. she's with a group of unztsdsed voters. what did they think? >> reporter: i'm here with 28 undecided voters. i want to get the response here. what was the clear winner?

tim kaine, raise your hand. all right. mike pence? raise your hand if you think he was. and raise your hand if you don't think there was a clear winner. as you see, this group thinks that tim kaine was the winner tonight. coming up, we'll talk about why they think that and more reactions to the moments during the debate. >> pamela, thank you. we should remind our viewers that tim kaine was a former mayor of richmond and also was the governor of richmond and is currently a senator of from virginia. many of those people have probably voted for him before. gloria, your reaction. >> i think that i agree with you. i think that -- however, when you look at this debate, you know, tim kaine did a good job for democratic voters. i don't think there's anything that tim kaine did that's going to dissuade anything from voting for hillary clinton, and he took

the case to mick pence. mike pence did not defend donald trump as robustly as he could have done, but pence was smooth. pence -- you could not ruffle pence at all. and pence was conservative. and if you are a conservative and you're watching this debate, you're saying to yourself, why haven't i heard donald trump talk about life this way, the issue of abortion? why haven't i heard donald trump talk about putin or russia this way? why haven't i heard donald trump talk about the middle east, in fact, this way? i think that pence may have helped donald trump to a degree by helping him sort of broaden his base a little with those sort of doubting conservatives. >> here's the problem. his debates are not tag team affairs. it's not like donald trump can tag mike pence on sunday and ask

him to take over for him if he starts to sink. many of the things pence said will be subject to fact checks because the gulf between what he said and what donald trump says is really enormous. and i think that pence at the end of the day, he may look back at this and say mike pence served himself better than donald trump. >> agri agree with you. he didn't go out of his way to defend donald trump when he couldn't. he turned the topic to hillary clinton whom he could attack, and that was their clear strategy going in, and i think he executed it. >> or he shook his head or denied donald trump said these things in some instances. i think the record will reflect that kaine was accurate in some of the things he described donald trump as saying. >> abortion at the top of the list. maybe i'll be second guessed but i have a pretty distinct

recollection of donald trump entertaining the notion that women would be punished if they had booabortions. pence said that's not what he said. we'll find out by morning, i'm sure. >> kaine insisted and pence final lay said well, she's not a seasoned politician like you and hillary clinton. >> should you be a polished politician to know your issue on abortion? i thought that was a terrible answer for pence to offer. i think on that one -- there were times when i thought he had kaine on the run in this debate. on this one, i thought he lost in that exchange in a way that was really significant. >> if you think they both did well for their respective bases, tim kaine reassured democrats prosecuted donald trump. mike pence making a strong case for conservatism, perhaps even stronger than donald trump is able to make as a recent convert to conservatism. what about the 15% of voters

that don't have an allegiance? >> i'm not sure this moves the needle. i through you have the debate on sunday night. all eyes will be on the two candidates, and so as we were saying before the debate, vice presidential debates generally don't move the needle. i think that's probably the case tonight. however, if you were looking for some reassurance, if you're one of those republican women who out in the suburbs of philadelphia who are looking for reassurance that there is somebody who is more temperate than donald trump on the ticket, maybe you got that kind of reassurance in tone and style from mike pence who was very cool tonight. and maybe -- i just -- we just have no way of knowing. >> the most important part of the audience tonight is one person, donald trump. was he watching carefully the way that mike pence prosecuted

the case for their ticket? frankly, this is the path trump needs to take. >> ignore the criticisms and go on and make his case? >> to be unflappable and let things just shrug things off, even if they were accurate when they were said, but maintain composure. >> it's a town hall on sunday, and the real test is can he do what he's not done, which is relate to the person standing in front of them in a way that ka notes connection. it's a challenge for hillary clinton. but she's good at town hall. >> let's go to the commentators here. jeffrey, a big trump supporter. what did you think? >> i thought mike pence was terrific. it was a home run for him. stylistically, and you hit on this right off the bat. i was amazed at senator kaine. you watched his features, his facial expressions and all of this sort of thing. i mean, this is exactly the problem that hillary clinton has, that the democratic party

has had in modern times. which is to say being condescending, arrogant, filled with moral and intellectual superiority, and pence challenged him. and when he comes out with all this business about race this and the other thing, he turns it around on him and says, you know, you're trying to run this campaign on insults, and you're accusing us of insults. he went after him. and when they were talking about donald trump being a fire president -- >> you're fired instead of you're hired? >> right. we had a report earlier today on the v.a. in phoenix which we now have a report from the inspector general that says the place is still a mess. nothing has been done. those people would have been fired years ago if donald trump were president of the united states. >> van jones, i'm going to get your response. >> and should be. >> well, there are two sins in communicating with people. there's a small sin and a big

sin. the small sin is to interrupt all the time, and kaine was guilty of that sin. but that's a small sin compared to the larger sin, which is to just lie. and what happened was you saw in realtime essentially pence invent a running mate, and he just lied about what this guy stood for. the guy that pence has as a running mate might get a bunch of votes. that guyconnect 1200 hoping.

>> to the extent he is running, to the extent he did not extend donald trump, he got away with a lot tonight. i tell you what, it is very, very important for us to recognize that the republicans think this is a moderate guy, the republican party has gone farther off the rails than i thought. >> if the trump campaign or think they have in kacaricaturi into trump he is not. anyone who watched the debate tonight will not see a man who is hateful. he was kind and careful. >> i didn't say he was hateful. >> you should be assuaged he is on the ticket. >> kayleigh, i think the thing you are going to face tomorrow is not that people were trying to depict donald trump as not -- that mike pence was trying to

depict donald trump as he's not and you will be confronted on things like the legion of putin admiring quotes of trump's that bear no relationship to mike pence's position as he articulated. and there are a series of things like that. that may have been a good strategy, it may not have been a good strategy, but it is an undeniable strategy. >> but the problem is she was secretary of state. she was the secretary of the russian reset, anything to do with -- >> no, no, that's a different point. >> but he is there and whatever you want to say about him -- >> no, you -- >> he is there because of her. >> but every indication has been -- and we'll see, you know, that putin has been more receptive of the notion of donald trump than hillary clinton. why is that? >> right. >> why has he been so warm in his comments about donald trump? why is he -- >> he's the kgb -- >> and he likes -- >> and can i say on the issue of

putin, pence told dana bash, i think it is inarguable, putin has been a stronger leader in his country than barack obama has been in this country. >> and they denied it. >> and denied it. >> he denied saying better, and when -- because he said stronger. >> stronger. >> that's the word, the sem man tick debate that went on. >> i was following on twitter during the debate. as pence was saying trump is not running an insalt driven campaign, trump was tweeting insults, saying tim kaine looked like a villain out of batman. it was perfect. >> to be fair, it was a retweet. >> let me go to wolf blitzer. >> all right, jake. let me get specifically to that one exchange that mike pence had with tim kaine on this whole issue, who is stlonger, who is a better leader, would it be president obama, would it be vladimir putin. here is what tim kaine said in

this exchange with governor pence. >> governor pence said inarguably vladimir putin is a better leader than -- >> that is absolutely inaccurate. >> and i just think a guy. >> i said he is a stronger -- he's been stronger on the world stage. >> no, you said leader. and i will say this, governor, if you do -- >> you better -- >> if you mistake leadership for dictatorship and you can't tell the difference, a country that is running its economy into the ground. >> this is the journalist thing again. this is great. >> if you can't tell the difference you shouldn't be commander-in-chief. >> all right. we did checking, it wasn't hard. dana bash did have an interview with governor pence at the ronald reagan museum in california. here is what governor pence said. >> i think it is inarguable that vladimir putin has been a stronger leader in his country than barack obama has been in this country, and that's going to change the day that donald

trump becomes president of the united states of america. >> reporter: all right. you had that exchange with him and he elaborated at the time as well. >> that's right. going back to what happened tonight, tim kaine did suggest that mike pence said that he -- that vladimir putin was a better leader, he said stronger. there is a difference. but at the time during that interview at the reagan library i pressed pence about the fact that vladimir putin doesn't have the kind of democracy that barack obama has, with the congress and checks and balances and, you know, the basic democracy and people who can push back on him unlike vladimir putin, and pence kind of demurred on that. there's no question tim kaine was trying to revoke what donald trump said, changed his words a little bit. >> what was your reaction to that exchange? >> there's no question. remember, while he was in congress mike pence was a hawk. he is a traditional conservative

who invoked the name of ronald reagan in the conversation with you, goes back to the old soviet union days and views pout inin the same way, and there's no question that donald trump's language is very different. part of it is because he's not a politician and part is because he said things that are favorable about vladimir putin and it is clear this is one of the issues that definitely in style and in the tone of their conversations mike pence and donald trump don't communicate the same way. it is a fact. >> we have a special guest. eric trump is joining us fresh out of the debate. i want to get to that in a moment, but we did see governor pence on the phone right after this debate. was he talking with your dad? >> you know what, i don't know. actually i came back here. so i would imagine so. i think my father would be incredibly proud of proud of his performance tonight. i certainly was as a family member sitting in the front road. he hit it out of the park, was poised, articulate, he was strong, not interrupting every single sentence like we saw from the other side. he wasn't used the same rehearsed sound bites time and

time again, which you saw. i thought governor pence was amazing. i think he represented the family and i think he represented the party incredibly, incredibly well tonight. >> and that one -- your reaction in the interview with dana, pence did say i think it is inarguable that vladimir putin has been a stronger leader in his country than barack obama has been in this country. you saw that exchange that the two vice presidential candidates had. i want your reaction. >> my reaction is simple. our president goes to china two weeks ago. china didn't bring a staircase up to air force one. it was interesting. governor pence was giving an interview in front of air force one, right? china didn't bring a staircase to air force one, no red carpet, marching brand, no dignitaries. our president came out of the service entrance of the plane. that's what other world leaders think of our country and our president. we've lot respect. my father will restore respect and mike pence will restore respect. i think the comment was very,

very valid. >> dana. >> governor pence was asked many, many times to defend and explain some of the things that your father has said, and he side stepped and avoided a lot of those opportunities to do that. now, some would say he didn't take the bait like, frankly, your father did last week, but on the other hand he also decided not to defend your father and some of the things he said. as donald trump's son were you disappointed? would you like mike pence to have defended more? >> this is play book for the clinton campaign, their entire life, distract, distract. hillary clinton has been a politician longer than i've been alive if you can believe it. if you look at her track record, whether syria, libya, entire middle east, iraq, the russian reset, if you go back to her time as senator where she said she would create 200,000 jobs in up state new york. do you know the net effect of that? by the time she left the senate up state new york and new york

had lost an additional 800,000 jobs. you look at the clinton foundation and it might be one of the biggest ponzi schemes ever. >> you're doing what your father didn't do. >> respectfully, she should be prosecuted on the kachlcase. i hear this garbage trump has business interests in russia. >> but mike pence was asked to defend your father and he declined to do so. >> i think the governor did an absolutely amazing job not only defending but putting the arguments back on them. a secretary of state, as senator of new york, all right, she has done an absolutely terrible job and it cost our nation trillions of dollars, it cost our nation thousands of lives. >> there's a lot of talk tonight about federal income tax. can you just put this to rest. has your father paid federal income taxes. >> we pay a tremendous amount of taxes. >> federal income taxes.

>> yes. >> yes? >> and beyond taxes we also employ tens and tens of thousands of people. the difference between my father and hillary clinton is hillary clinton has lived off of the government her entire life. she never created -- >> eric, my question though is has he paid federal income taxes over the last 18 years? >> of course, yes, absolutely. my father pays a tremendous amount of tax. we as a company pay a tremendous amount of tax. we as a company also hire a tremendous amount of people, which leads to people being able to provide for their families, people being able to take care of their families, people being able to educate their children. if you look at hillary on the other hand, she has never signed the front of a check once. she never balanced a budget. >> if we ever see your father's income taxes, it will show that he has paid federal income taxes. >> there's no question about it. we pay tremendous taxes as a company. >> will we see it? >> listen, when the audit is over my father will release it, and he said that. >> have you seen his tax return? >> and quite frankly, when is she going to release the hundreds of speeches she gave to

special interests? when is she going to release the hundreds of speeches she gave to wall street? where are the speeches? why won't she release them. when is she going to release the 33,000 e-mails she deleted. >> have you seen the income taxes. >> after lying to department of justice, to the fbi and to congress. >> eric, i'm impressed because you haven't -- exactly, you haven't been in politics that long and you're doing the pivot quite well. if you can put a button on this. have you seen your father's income tax? >> i don't study our tax returns, that's why you have -- >> no, but have you seen them. >> of course you see tax returns. >> have you seen your father's tax returns. >> i'm answering the question. of course i've seen my father's -- >> he paid federal income tax? >> as a company we paid. how about real estate taxes, how about employment taxes, how about every other type of tax that goes into that? we pay a tremendous amount of tax as a company. that is very, very, very different than hillary clinton who lived off the government for

the last 40 years. >> john king has a question, but very quickly why not release the income tax returns that are no longer under audit? >> listen, my father said when the audits are over he will release the taxes. my father has also said, hey, listen, hillary clinton, why don't you release the 33,000 e-mails you deleted and why don't you release your speech transcripts and when you do i'll release my tax returns. this is a whole distraction. >> 2002 through 2008 are no longer under audit. >> i don't know if that's true. >> that's what the attorney, morgan lewis, the law firm for the -- for donald trump said that -- >> you know something i don't. >> they released a public letter, morgan lewis, that's a major law firm -- >> why don't you look at the hundreds of pages my father put out. he has an amazing company and has built an amazing company. we have some of the best hotels and real estate buildings and best and biggest golf courses in the world. you have seen the projects built over the last decade or two decades. he has an amazing company.

he butt a tremendous company. he has employed thousands and thousands of people, and that's very, very different than somebody who has lived their entire existence profiting off the government. the one question i have for you guys is hillary went from being dead broke when she left the white house, hillary and bill, to being worth a quarter of a billion dollars. the question i have for you is what product has she sold, what is she selling she went from nothing to a quarter of a billion dollars in a 15-year period of time and we know the answer to that. >> we don't answer for hillary clinton, the campaign does, but i urge you to show up at your father's debate practice because you have a skill set here. i think a lot of the -- >> i like the three on one. >> you are sitting in the front row of the debate. you are here to represent your dad and the campaign. tim kaine was not just prosecuting your father in trying to make the case, saying your father might have a conflict until we see the taxes, your name came up and your brothers. let's listen. >> the trump organization is an

octopus-like organization with tentacles all over the world, whose conflict of interest could only be known if donald trump would release his tax returns. he's refused to do it. his sons have said that the organization has a lot of business dealings in russia. and, remember, the trump organization is not a nonprofit. it is putting money sfwinto don trump's pockets and the pockets of his children, whereas the clinton foundation is a nonprofit and no clinton family member draws any sal hear. >> i want you to respond, if you can. be as specific as you can about the company's dealings in specific and any russian backs and investors in russia. >> it is such a nonsense. i listened to the nonsense about tentacles. you know, we built a great company. america should be proud of people that build great kpts, that's what america is b it is about building and it is about success and about jobs and creating the american dream,

right? henry ford. i mean that's what america is about. we should be proud of that. to talk about tentaclesal over the world, we have no assets in russia. that was a nonsense statement. >> any debt? >> we have no assets in russia, no debt in russia. i haven't been to russia in six, seven years off the top of my head, five years, six years, seven years. it is nonsense. i think we held ms. universe in russia one year, that's the extent of our business dealings there. we have no who tells, no golf assets, no residential buildings. we don't have properties in russia. to come out here, that's -- and i think that's what the american people are fed up with. it is the sound bites, it is these lies, it is the disingenuous nature of it. it is referring to a great company that employs thousands of hard working americas as a company that's nefarious with tentacles all over the place. >> do you understand the power if your father released the taxes and laid them out and say to your point, here are the papers, they're lying? they're making it up, it doesn't

exist. why wouldn't he do it. >> the tax returns wouldn't show those things anyway. >> they're trying to make the -- >> go to look to see if our name is on a building, if we own property there. we're a real estate company, a bricks and mortar company. go see if we have anything in russia and the reality is we don't. look at the clinton foundation for a second, right? the u.s. government sold 20% of the uranium stockpile, the material used to make nuclear weapons, to russia. two weeks later the clinton foundation get $145 million from the russian businesspeople who put the deal together. bill clinton has been to moscow a number of times. he has been paid $500,000 to give speeches on so many occasions in russia. i mean her ties to russia are deep. there's no question about it. anybody who has looked at the clinton foundation knows their ties to russia are incredibly substantial. we have nothing in russia. this is garbage.

>> final question, how is your dad preparing for the second presidential debate sunday night? >> he is preparing and surrounding himself with great people, and my father will be himself. he will not be the staged candidate that i think you saw tonight. i mean how many times were the same catchy sound bites thrown out over and over. you know he memorized them and they were practiced in front of a mirror. >> you're talking about tim kaine, right? >> tim kaine. and that's not who my father. he speaks from his heart. i am so proud of what my father has accomplished, he has done an unbelievable job and we're going to win come november 8th, no question about it. >> thanks for joining us. eric trump. je you have a special guest as well. >> i'm here with clinton came pain john positive december tde >> i think he did a great job

both in explaining what he and hillary want to do for the american people, how to build an economy that would work for the middle class, for everyone, not just people at the top. he was strong on reproductive choice, and i think that he challenged governor pence to defend the kind of hateful campaign that donald trump has run, and time again governor pence took a dive. >> you said though that he did have a snooze performance. do you believe governor pence was not taking the bait that senator kaine was throwing out? >> no, i think essentially he made a decision he would not try to defend the top of the ticket, that he was going to move away from donald trump, that, you know, when faced with the things that donald trump had said. not unfair characterizations, not made up facts as pence threw at tim with respect to hillary, but just the things he said, he decided he wouldn't defend him.

he sort of made a soft attempt to try to defend his business practice and couldn't defend at all his decision not to release his tax returns. >> reporter: looking ahead to sunday, do you think donald trump has lowered his own bar for his performance? >> well, look, i think it is a tough format for donald trump because he's going to have to look real voters in the eye, answer their questions. hillary's been doing that from the beginning of this campaign and really the beginning of her career. she's always been about helping children, families. the way you do that is you listen to people, you understand what their problems are, you try to relate to them. donald trump i think has really never really done that much in his life, and he certainly hasn't done that much in this campaign. so i think it is a challenging format. now, you know, given the reviews that he got on the first debate i guess the press will probably set that bar very low for him. >> reporter: your campaign has moved forward this week and gained some ground that it had lost after the convention. you get so much information and data and analytics.

what is one piece of information that still gnaws at you that you would like to correct or fix in these coming four weeks? >> look, i think we still have to and will spend our time doing what hillary did today in suburban philadelphia which is talk directly to voters about what she wants to do. that's why she did the children and families town hall with chelsea. that's why she talks about equal pay. that's why she talked about anti-bullying. that's why she talked about raising the minimum wage, having affordable child care. those are the real problems facing families in america. she's got ideas and plans about what to do about that and she's got a proven track record of always fighting for kids, always fighting for families. that's what we have to do. to seal the deal we know we still have work to do. we are obviously working on the ground to get our vote out, but we have to keep talking to the american people about their future. that's what this campaign is about, their future. >> reporter: of course, you worked for bill clinton for a long time as well.

what was he talking about in flint, michigan? and were you disappointed by his comments about obama care? >> look, i think if you look at the entire context of what he said was obama care has been a success because it has expanded health insurance for 20 million people, it has done so much other good things like ending the ban on insurance company's ability to deny coverage for preexisting condition, stopping discrimination against women, providing -- >> he called it crazy. >> what he was saying was there was a feature of the law that meant that if you got subsidies you were doing okay, if you were just above that you were having -- you were having trouble, but right from the beginning -- and i think president obama talks about the fact that we need to improve things, we need to make it easier for small businesses to buy insurance for their employees. we need to make sure that people in that economic bracket that he was talking about can afford the

insurance they need to get tax credits to people so their out-of-pocket expenses aren't too big and we need to lower the price of prescription drugs. so he was colorful and i probably would have chosen different words, but i think that what he was saying is there's still -- the law has been a success but there's more to do. >> reporter: if she has a strong debate performance on sunday, secretary clinton, can she put the election away? >> we will never say that until the last poll closes. there's early voting going on, more and more will come online. our team is out. we built very strong organizations really across the country in all 50 states. >> reporter: not yet on sunday? >> will you talk to me on november 8th around 10rk at night. >> reporter: john. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> reporter: wolf, back to you. >> jeff, thanks very much. we are waiting. we will get the results from a focus group of undecided voters who have assembled. they watched the debate. we will get that.

we also have an exclusive cnn instant poll, people all over the country who watched this debate. we're going to find out who they thought won this debate. in the meantime, let's go back to jake. >> thanks, wolf. i'm here with our elite panelists and gloria borger, let me ask you. there's the debate, the 90 minutes of debate. >> right. >> and then there's the spin afterwards, the media coverage afterwards, the "saturday night live" mockery afterwards. you gave the debate to pence. you said generally you thought he had a better debate. >> yes. >> but what about the post? what about the spin and the coverage and the "snl?" >> as we were talking about earlier, he was unflappable and he defended himself more than donald trump, pence. but i think in the aftermath there's going to be an awful lot of fact checking that goes on here, particularly on the question of putin and russia, and he didn't really answer the question on immigration because

the question that was posed was what do you say to those who haven't committed crimes. he didn't really -- he said, well, we will get to that later. he didn't have an answer for that question. i think that as paul was pointed out, i think that pence did a very good job for himself and had a clear strategy, which was, you know, don't take these insults and defend them, just turn it to hillary clinton. and kaine's strategy was attack trump and then attack pence for defending trump, but pence never defended trump. so it was a little more difficult for him to do. so we have the "saturday night live," i think he will have another lockbox moment as you had with al gore with the question of i can't imagine how you would defend that, which he said repeatedly on purpose as he pointed out. you know, that's why i think in the end he that this probably isn't going to change that many

minds. i mean, you know, pence looked like the high school principal sometimes and kaine looked like the eager student. so they're just two different guys who were defending two very different people. >> what pence didn't look like was donald trump. >> right, exactly. he looked like a conservatively. >> ultimately donald trump is the candidate. so the question is what happens sunday night when donald trump returns to the stage. >> right, exactly. >> and is he this candidate that we saw tonight or is he the donald trump we've seen on the stage for the last year? it would be -- it would be interesting if he changed, but there's no indication that -- he has gotten here by being who he is and he's not going to change now. a lot of the stuff that pence laid down there is not basic donald trump. >> van. >> not at all. >> one thing i thought was very interesting, so they came at it

different ways. on the criminal justice stuff, you know, they actually wound up kind of agreeing. i want to point out this is a very unusual development in american politics. in 2012 the democratic party had not one line about criminal justice reform. >> right. >> in its platform. this is halfway through the obama administration, not one word. now four years later you can have two people disagree with everything and yet on criminal justice, i just think it is an important moment for those of us who have been dealing with this issue 20, 30 years, the screaming in the wilderness. you are in a place where both political parties are at least willing to talk about it. the difference is how much are you willing to admit race is a part of it. >> i think that's where records matter. you have hillary clinton who called groups of people super predators, who passed a crime bill under bill clinton, his tutelage, that incriminate touchdown african-american community. >> bill clinton passed that

bill. >> it was her husband, she supported it, in fact demonized those people in prison calling them super predators. >> which she apologized. >> meanwhile, fine. she didn't have the right judgment. meanwhile you had mike pence who passed criminal justice reform in the state of indiana who was on the right side in congress voting to pass reform. he did the judgment to do it. by the way, donald trump had the judgment to pick mike pence and he will have the judgment to appoint people in his administration to appoint people like mike pence. >> i hope not because he wants people who have miscarriages to be forced to pay for the funerals of their fetuses, but he is not criminal justice. even on criminal justice he did pass a bill and then he turned around and increased the punishment for people who are addicted to heroin, which is the opposite of the direction we should be going. so i do want to point out we are actually having an honest conversation about the best way to fix the system. that is a victory for those

young people that have been protesting all year long. >> there were two moments when i thought it was really good dialogue. one, as david pointed out, was when they talked about abortion and their disagreement on abortion but it was a civil conversation. the other one as you point out, van, when they were talking about criminal justice and community policing and the steps that could go forward on that. jeffrey, let me ask you about the next debate with donald trump. >> all right. >> do you accept the premise that he had a bad first debate? >> no. >> you do not? >> i do not. >> you think if he shows up as he did in the first debate, that will be another win? >> no, look, you can keep going through different debate cycles and act differently if you will in different debates. ronald reagan had what was generally considered to be in the day a lousy first debate. president obama was considered to have one. but they showed up. their style didn't change dramatically, it is just that they were more forthright in going after opponents.

>> and prepared. >> and that sort of thing. i mean i think donald trump was wonderful, that first half hour in particular i thought he was really great. i think one of the problems the country has in terms of how they view this, they look at these events and they see the media portrayal of the event and they think they're being told donald trump lost the debate, or whatever -- >> you have the reverse going on tonight when people saying mike pence won, except our focus group pointed out -- >> they were all -- >> they were all virginans. >> if you could -- you said there's no constructive criticism, no advice you would give to donald trump for the second debate. >> it is a different kind of debate. >> right, because it is a town hall. >> right. so you have to adapt to that. i think we all remember the bill clinton/the george h.w. bush, and the good thing for clinton was he got up out of his chair and looked the woman in the eye and just, you know, sort of telegraphed the i feel your pain

business. the problem for president bush was he looked at his watch. >> yeah. >> but, you know, this debate will be entirely different, structured in an entire different way. >> but how is it -- you are the only human being on planet earth that thinks donald trump doesn't need to do anything different in the debate. >> no, there's two of us. there's two of us. >> let trump be trump. don't stop him. jeffrey and kayleigh, donald, don't listen. be your bullying, obnoxious shelf. >> i want to go fact checking. senator kaine talked about the bush tax cuts and said they were responsible for the greatest recession or whatever since the great depression. it was not the bush tax cuts. it was fannie mae and freddie mac. >> oh. >> and decades of democratic policy that begin with president clinton's housing policy in the 1990s. >> and chester a. arthur too but

can we get back to the debate? there was a remarkable moment when tim kaine called putin a bully. oh, no. donald trump has gone out of his way to praise putin. he has been strong in his fidelity to his pal, president putin of russia even though he was a dictator. pence was attacking that position. i have never seen anything like that. this is not a minor side issue. >> the point was we should be more confrontational. wherever he goes donald trump says, wouldn't it be great if we got along better with russia. that's his position. >> for decades and decades -- >> it is amazing. >> in other words here is the thing, if you are pence and you get to make up your running mate, you get to make up your facts, you get to make up -- you get to deny quotes that are obvious and already all over twitter, you can have a great

debate. you know, that's wonderful. the reality is you have a major problem in this party. kayleigh -- >> let's not being denied is that mike pence hands down won this debate, that's not denied. >> do you see a discrepancy about what mike pence said about putin. >> no, he said you had the administration that walked away from russia. you want a strong dealer that can deal with russia. we have to have russia as a partner to some ex pent, certainly in syria. that being said, you pinned the blame for russia's action going into crimea and -- >> place the blame on the obama administration for going into georgia when happened under the last administration. >> let's be clear, hillary clinton extended a reset button. >> i'm asking you a question. i'm asking a question. >> sure. >> who was president when russia went into georgia? >> who was president when russia annexed crimea. >> i'm asking you a question. >> and i'm asking a question

back. >> so you're not question. >> george w. bush and barack obama. >> who extended -- >> tonight mike pence said it was the obama administration that was in charge when they went to russia -- >> who extended a reset button to russia? >> the central point -- >> we're analyzing the debate. >> right before russia annexed crimea, that was hillary clinton. it was policy that once again failed. >> what would have happened if george h.w. bush said, you know, the soviet union is not such an evil empire, they're kind of nice people, we would have a is schizm in the republican party. >> i think what we saw was is mike pence was running for president of the united states -- >> and he is. >> donald trump's good judgment in putting him on the ticket. >> he would be portrayed, he would be anti-putin, and he

would support george w. bush's decision on iraq. i think those are three things that mike pence has clearly distanced himself from his presidential candidate and he wasn't going to let a debate get in the way of it. >> do you think it is right? >> i do. i made a list that i think the losers were ted cruz, marco rubio, scott walker and all of the others who see themselves as rightful heir to the throne of ronald reagan. can i look forward to the next debate because it will be the first debate that takes place since the "new york times" revelation relevant to donald trump and the taxes. i think something significant happened when eric trump was interviewed by dana and wolf. when wolf was pushing him relative to the taxes we haven't seen, he said something similar but he went a step farther than his father did in first debate, which is to say if she will

release the 30,000 e-mails, then my father will release the taxes, which to me shows it is a negotiation and it is not about the audit. because if there were 30,000 e-mails still in existence she could produce, then what happened to that whole argument that said, i would love to show you my tax returns but my tax accountant won't let me do it. and i think when people seize that and realize it, they're going to see through it. >> trump said something very similar. >> very similar in first debate. >> he said it more clearly tonight. >> i think there was a significant moment in the debate on this particular issue when kaine said to pence, you had to submit your tax returns to donald trump. >> right. >> before he could make you the nominee for vice president. why shouldn't the american people get to see donald trump's income tax returns before they make his president? i suspect that that line registered with people because it just makes common sense. >> uh-huh. >> do you think that that's possible at all, jeffrey? >> what? >> do you think that voters who -- i mean polls indicate that the majority of voters want

donald trump to release his tax returns. >> i do not believe that this is a voting issue for a lot of people. i mean if that's what you're voting on, you're not going to vote for donald trump anyway. >> no, i agree with you that nobody will vote yes or no because of that issue, but does it maybe feed into the trust issue which might be a voting issue? >> maybe the media will try to make it feed in there, but i honestly don't think so. i mean the whole tax thing -- i mean, first of all i said for months he should never release his taxes. i went back and lead today. nixon didn't release his taxes when he was running for president. it was after he was president. >> yeah, see how that worked out. >> he didn't in '68 but he did necessa in '72 when he was under audit. >> let's do a fact check. who won tonight's debate. we will reveal our poll from watchers s .

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we got our -- people watching this debate. share the numbers with us. >> that's right. wolf. remember, this is a poll among debate watchers, not among all voters. among debate watchers tonight, it was a slightly democratic advantage in the audience, more democrats than republicans were watching tonight. take a look at who they think won. mike pence, 48% say he won the debate to tim kaine at 42%. as you know, wolf, this is a game of expectations. so look at this. did tim kaine do better or worse than you expected? 43% said he did worse. 38% say he did better. how about mike pence, what did he do in terms of the battle expectations? 67% of debate watchers said he did better than they expected tonight. 14% said worse. remember, we're showing pence won, pence beat the expectations game, and the audience of debate watchers was actually skewed

more democratic. so certainly put the w in the trump/pence column tonight. >> good news for donald trump. he likes these poll numbers i am sure, david. stand by. dana, your reaction to these numbers? >> this is great new for mike pence, but the question is what does it mean for the guy who matters at if top of the ticket and that's donald trump. whether or not people seemed to like mike pence, and more importantly as david pointed out that you exceeded viewers expectations, is it going to translate at all to donald trump. that's an open question. historically the answer is know. >> what do you think. >> it is an interesting question going on in the conservative media, a lot not fans, saying a win for pence is not necessarily a win for trump in the sense it shows how pence was a better debater than the man atop the ticket. the conservatives saying you may think tim kaine was annoying to keep repeating and quoting things donald trump was saying, but a number of people kept

hearing tim kaine what trump was saying. i want to give you insight in trump world who said he does not think this is going to go down terribly well with donald trump, even though the trump campaign is rushing out statements across the country praising mike pence. he said donald trump is hearing the interviews mike pence won and he didn't defend donald trump and he is better debaters than donald trump. >> he had opportunities to defend donald trump. on several points he was pretty silent. >> absolutely. which is why one of our first questions to eric trump sitting here was how did you feel about the fact mike pence didn't take the bait but certainly didn't defend your father. you know, as the debate started to go on i started to communicate with people in trump world saying, how long until the people who prepared mike pence, was a lot of prep work, are going to be flown to trump tower to try to convince the guy at

the top of the ticket this is how you prepare for a debate, you do it with, you know, actual mock debates, with somebody playing the opponent, playing the moderator, which is what mike pence did. very aggressively. but the open question is even if that happened, would it matter because donald trump is a very, very different person than mike pence. >> two other quick points. number one, donald trump said he would be live tweeting. there was a lot of anxiety in republican circles when he said he was going to live tweet during the debate. essentially the staff was tweeting press releases, instant reactions to things, and a few comments from donald trump about mike pence doing a good job. if you look at the tweets over the last say ten years, pretty straightforward and mainstream. to the other conversation, look, mike pence's tone is very different when it comes to putin and russia than donald trump. but i want to remind the panel and jake, the trump force pulled

from the platform tough language on russia. the traditional hawks wanted tough language against putin and russia, so now you hear pence saying he is a bully, we have to stand up tough to him. that was not trump's tone at the convention. >> we are getting reality checks coming in. jim schiutto has been watching. zwrim, what do you have? >> reporter: the topic we talked about a lot tonight, russia. what exactly have trump and pence said about their support for him and the leaders. let's have a listen to tim kaine tonight. >> newly kbold enthe aggression of russia whether in you skran or -- >> you have -- >> their heavy handed approach. >> you both have said -- >> we'll get to russia in a moment. but i want to get back to the question. >> and thank you, thank you, ten tore. >> praised putin as a great leader. how can they defend that?

>> you heard the claim, senator kaine attacking trump and pence for praise of putin. let's start with the republican nominee as the commander-in-chief forum last month trump said putin has strong control over his country. he went on. let's have a listen. >> he is really very much of a leader. you can say, oh, isn't that a terrible thing. the man has very strong control over his country. >> now, pence denied tonight he praised putin. the fact is he made similar comments and more than once about putin's leadership in russia when backing up his running mate's comments. have a listen to mike pence. >> i think it is inarguable that vladimir putin has been a stronger leader in his country than barack obama has been in this country. >> so the verdict here, and this is a straightforward one because remember the claim from senator kaine was pence and trump praised putin, and you heard it,

we rate this one as true. >> jim schiutto, thank you. tom foreman you have been doing a reality check. what are you learning? >> one of kaine's basic claims is that the trump campaign has no facts. all they have is an insult-driven campaign. these guys say all mexicans are bad, and with respect to refugees. >> absolutely not. >> we want to keep people out if they're dangerous. donald trump said keep them out if they're muslim. mike pence put a program to keep them out if they're from syria. >> is this true? all mexicans are bad. did donald trump say that? certainly he disparaged a lot of them saying they're rapists, drug dealers, that sort of thing, never said all are bad. that part is false. what about the other claim, the idea you should keep them out if they're dangerous or muslim? yes, donald trump made those claims. that part is true. what about the idea that mike pence wants to stop syrian refugees from coming to his state of indiana.

yeah, he has fought hard to make that happen. the courts recently slapped him down on that. that claim is also true. but now listen to how pence went right back at kaine. ours is an insult-driven campaign? i mean to be honest with you if donald trump had said all of the things that you've said he said in the way you say he said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that hillary clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. >> so did she really say that? yes, she did use the word deplorables. she tried to explain later saying she was talking about people who were bigots, racists and xenophobes and she over reached or over generalized by saying half of the people out there. but the bottom line is she did use this word, that's what she said. his claim is true, and kaine tried in another part to say, well, you know, she really sort of disavowed that and walked back. she may have qualified it but

she never took it back. the word hangs out there. his claim on that front is absolutely false. >> all right, tom foreman. thank you. by the way, for more reality checks go to cnn.com/realitycheck. coming up we will hear more from our focus group of undecided virginia voters. we will get their reaction to key moments in tonight's debate. we will be right back.

guys, we showed you earlier the majority of the focus group of undecided voters said tim kaine won the debate. we will show you a key moment right now that these voters in virginia said was important for them. keep your eye on the bottom of the screen. men's responses are in green. women in yellow. when the lines go up, that means they like what they heard. if the lines go down, they didn't like a candidate's answer. here's tim kaine talking about his faith and the death penalty.

>> to allow executions to go forward, but in circumstances with i didn't feel like there was a case for clem nsy i told virginia voters i would uphold the law and i did. that was a real struggle, but i think it is really, really important that those of us who have deep faith lives don't feel we can just substitute our views for everybody else in society regardless of their views. >> let's get to pamela brown in richmond, virginia for us. pamela, what did the voters like about this answer? >> well, i'll tell you, wolf, this group of 28 undecided voters here at the university of richmond was looking for substance tonight, and majority of them say they found that with tim kaine there in his answer about religion and other issues throughout the night. so let's find out from the undecided voters, i want to you ask, what was it you liked about tim kaine's performance tonight. >> i think the thing that stuck in my mind is he had a definite plan and systematic in

addressing issues. >> in what way do you think he articulated the plan that you haven't heard before? >> i guess compared to hillary, one, he had a plan. for the attacks that came against him he always countered and was very decisive in responses. >> i want to actually on that note ask you, do you feel like tim kaine laid out plans better than the presidential candidate hillary clinton on the ticket? >> yes, he did a better job at laying out the plans, enumerating, but i wasn't real thrilled. >> reporter: let me ask you, did it change your attitude at all about hillary clinton, because you always thought tim kaine won tonight? did it change your view at all of her as presidential candidate? >> i think tim kaine won tonight because of his presentation of policy and lack thereof from mike pence. but i don't think it changed my view of hillary clinton so much. it did kbold eneembolden how i

kaine strengthen the ticket. he is his own individual and i was looking for how he could present himself and how he could take over as president if the need were to arise. >> you felt he did that. >> i felt he did partially. i was looking for a little more. >> reporter: on that note, you heard the reetsones why they felt tim kaine won on substance. demeanor is a different issue. in fact, the majority of undecided voters felt like mike pence had a better demeanor. wolf. >> yes, a lot of the voters also liked mike pence as well as you point out, pamela. here is a moment they liked from pence. donald trump has filed over 100 pages of financial discloesh youure which is what the law required. >> but he said he would release the tax returns -- >> you can review that. >> what did they like about that specific clip? >> reporter: let's go straight to those who thought mike pence won tonight and had the good demeanor. i want to ask you back here because you felt like mike pence

was more presidential tonight than tim kaine, right? >> right. >> reporter: how so? >> i feel like he had more of a measured responses. he wasn't the sort of like forcing -- forcing his way into the conversation. i feel like he had a lat more respect for the process and he seemed more measured and a lot more thoughtful than tim kaine. while i think tim kaine probably did -- i like that he laid stuff out, i just think pence came across as more relaxed and more honest. >> reporter: how about you? >> as far as what he want? >> reporter: yes, pence and disdemeanor tonight. >> i felt his responses were more measured. i felt when he was asked the questions he did pause and to me he is being reflective before he answers the questions. i did feel he laid out some policy points that were specific to the questions close to him. >> so you all thought that he had a better demeanor. how many of you all thought that

tim kaine was too much of an attack dog, raise your hands? even a majority of you think tim kaine won tonight, you didn't like his demeanor necessarily. show of hand if you would like the vice presidential candidates to be at the top of the ticket after watching the debate tonight. show of hand. there you see it. incredible, wolf. all would rather the vice presidential candidates to be at top of the ticket. coming up, we are going to tell you whether tonight's debate influenced the undecided voters come november. back to you. >> cnn's coverage of the vice presidential debate continues next.

a long time, had a lot of creative lines in it. >> i'm going to see if you can defend any of it. >> tim kaine and mike pence, they've butted heads on the debate stage. the two running mates making themselves for themselves, really more about the people at the top of the ticket. who had the upper hand? was there a defining moment that could change everything? good morning, everyone. welcome to "early start." >> and i'm kristine bermans, 4:00 a.m. in the east.

first mike pence and tim kaine. building up hillary clinton while trying to tear down donald trump. warn evening voters that the trump president sudden. the indiana governor choosing not to defend trump and accusing clinton of running an insult driven campaign to cover her record. who finished number one among the would be number twos? polled voters who watched the debate and pence came out on top, 48% to 42%. we should note more democrats responded than republicans. donald trump agreeing with the cnn poll. he was tweeting throughout the debate. once it ended he declared mike pence won big. bring in mark preston. good morning, mark. was it a pence victory in your view? >> well, it was, but, you know, there's probably a lot to unpack over the next hour to explain what happened last night with

the ramifications are. in the near term, and quite frankly, in the future for mike pence. mike pence coming out very calm, very collected, not really jumping the gun necessarily. as you said, christine, tim kaine was revved up and kept interrupting and pushing back. other than the beginning of the debate when they give opening statements, in the end of the debate there were >> and i just want to talk about the tone that's set from the top. donald trump during the campaign has called mexicans rapists and criminals. he's called women, slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting i don't like saying that in front of my wife and mother. >> to be honest with you, donald trump has said all the things you said he said in the way you said he said them, he still

wouldn't have a fraction of insultds that hillary clinton leveled when he said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. >> and there's the rub that will be talked about all throughout the coming days in the big showdown between donald trump and hillary clinton. who is talking policy. who is attacking. we saw it on stage last night a few hours ago where these two are playing proxy battles. as we've seen throughout the next hour, tim kaine was on the offensive. his battle plan was to go in to promote hillary clinton. but more importantly, to try to take a notch out of donald trump. in many