not so much. >> you are donald trump -- >> hotly contentious from the start. >> i can't imagine how governor pence can defend the insult-driven, selfish me style of donald trump. >> reporter: the vice presidential debate becoming a night of whose candidate is more insulting. >> you and hillary clinton would know a lot about an insult-driven campaign. >> reporter: tim kaine repeatedly putting mike pence on the defensive, using donald trump's own words. >> he's called women's slobs, pigs, disgusting. he went after john mccain a p.o.w. and said he wasn't a hero. >> reporter: words pence didn't directly defend. >> when donald trump says women should be punished or mexicans are rapists and criminals or john mccain is not a hero, he is showing you who he is. >> senator, you whipped out that mexican thing, again. look --

>> can you defend it? >> there are criminal aliens in this country, tim. >> reporter: instead, trying to take a similar tact against hillary clinton. >> he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that hillary clinton level when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. >> reporter: trump's running mate at times flat out denying statements that the billionaire has made in the past. >> donald trump and mike pence have said he's a great leader. donald trump has business. >> i respect putin. he's a strong leader. >> donald trump's claim that nato is obsolete and we need to get rid of nato is so dangerous. >> nato is obsolete. changed for the better. >> reporter: kaine frequently interrupting pence. >> senator, let me talk about -- >> this is my time. >> he says -- >> hold on a second, governor. >> this is my time, senator. >> attempting to prove trump is unfit for office by quoting ronald reagan.

>> he said the problem with nuclear proliferation is that some fool or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event. and i think that's who governor pence's running mate is. exactly who president reagan warned us about. >> senator, that is beneath you and hillary clinton. that is pretty low. >> reporter: kaine hammering pence on donald trump's refusal to release his taxes. >> he said if i run for president, i will release my taxes. he has broken his first promise. >> he hasn't broken that promise. >> he stood on the stage last week and when hillary said you haven't been paying taxes, he said, that makes me smart. it's smart not to pay for our military. it's smart not to pay for veterans and smart not to pay for teachers. >> his tax returns show that he went through a very difficult time, but he used the tax code just the way it's supposed to be used and he did it brilliantly. >> reporter: as pence touted the message that trump advisors want their own candidate to make, they represent change.

>> what you all just heard out there is more taxes. $2 trillion in more spending, more deficits, more debt, more government. and if you think that's all working, then you look at the other side of the table. >> reporter: both candidates asking americans to trust their candidate and distrust their opponent. >> we trust hillary clinton, my wife and i. we trust her with the most important thing in our life. we have a son deployed overseas in the marine corps right now. we trust hillary clinton as president and commander in chief. the thought of daonald trump as commander in chief, scares us to death. >> there is a reason why people question the trustworthness of hillary clinton, because they're paying attention. >> reporter: ending with a testy exchange on abortion and faith. >> stand with great compassion for the sanctity of life. we can create a culture of life. >> why don't you trust women to make this choice for them selves? we can encourage people to

support life, of course we can. >> on fundamental issues of moralit morality, we should let women make their own decisions. >> and, chris, one trump adviser described pence's performance last night as flawless. the type of performance he's continuing to roll out here in harrisonberg later this morning. no one is surprised that mike pence was the calm and steady hand on this ticket. that has never been the issue. the issue is whether his running mate can do the same. chris? >> sometimes it's easier to defend what somebody else said and gives you a break from defending your own problems. phil, thank thank you very much. who won? we did a poll last night and governor mike pence won. 48% to 42 for tim kaine. two-thirds of viewers also said that trump's running mate exceeded expectation. big picture, more than half of the viewers said, i don't care. 29% -- >> didn't exactly say y don't care. >> 53% said i'm not more likely

to vote for either of them. that's, i don't care. 29% said i'm more likely to vote for trump. our poll sample skews more, but that doesn't bother you if you're in the gop because pence won. >> we have cnn political commentator and council speaker christine quinn she's a hillary clinton supporter and john philips, a donald trump supporter and cnn political commentator anna navarro. anna, i want to start with you because i haven't seen you for too long. >> i'm toor a angry to be on ine morning. >> what did you make of last night? >> i'm not inclined to like anything related to donald trump, not a thing. but i thought mike pence did very, very well yesterday. he was calm and cool and collected. i thought in style points, tim kaine was a mess. he looked to me like one of those, you know, nice american guys from the midwest who come

into the cuban restaurant for the first time and drink cuban coffee and you have to peel them off the wall for the next three days. he was overcaffeinated and he interrupted 64 times. it was down right annoying. forget the substance. in the meantime, you had mike pence who could not be phased. he did not take the bait of spending the entire debate defending the insane things that his running mate has been saying for the last week. so, i thought the contrast between the spaz out of tim kaine and the calm, cool, collective of mike pence was dramatic. even more dramatic was the contrast between mike pence and donald trump. i think he gave republicans and maybe a lot of other voters a little bit of comfort in knowing that at least not the entire republican ticket is erratic, insane and just downright crazy. >> that raise any questions for you? as a gop guy, when you see that pence is calm, he is a lot of

the things that trump is not. so, you get a balance. it's good. it's good for the ticket. he shows the steady hand, as anna says. but this point of inflection that trump is not this way. is there a potential plus and minus? >> i disagree with anna in one very fundamental point. i don't think he drank the coffee i think he tied off a vein and injected it right in there. he was very, very hyper last night. >> very little evidence. >> but, look, this has been the black swan election. the vice presidential nominees are the ones going out and attacking the uother sides and the presidential nominees staying out of it. the presidential candidates really went it and you look at the strategy that each side showed last noit. i almost thought that tim kaine prepared to debate donald trump, not mike pence. and mike pence kind of played the hillary clinton role in this debate and donald trump was

played by tim kaine. >> that's interesting. so, christine, was tim kaine mainlining caffeine. did you think he interrupted and lost some style points? >> i know hillary clinton and mike pence is no hillary clinton no matter what role he's trying to play. look, tim kaine was amped up. and far be it from me to criticize somebody who is ampd up. however, you know, cuban coffee, we'll get to that, no question. >> you could drink it like tang all morning long and be unaffected. but you are unusually, naturally caffeinated. >> it's a gift from god and i'm grateful for it every day. but let me tell you, that said, there was a juxtaposition last night and i think it really was, as i said, between mike pence and donald trump. i think when people saw his calm demeanor last night and it was calm, but that calm demeanor, don't forget, that's the front of a man who is anti-gay,

anti-women. >> which didn't come up last night. that's how most people knew mike pence before he got picked. >> i wish the issue came up last night. what we saw in that demeanor is somebody and that face he was putting on. somebody who couldn't and wouldn't defend the president he is to serve and that administration and i think all we saw last night was a reminder and i think it was tim kaine's job was not to come off smooth as silk. his job was to remind america and americans that donald trump is someone who is, cannot be defended. cannot be supported even by his ultraconservative, anti-gay, anti-women, anti-immigrant running mate. what we saw last night, we didn't see vote for my guy. my guy is going to be great from him. what we saw is vote for me in 2020. a guy who was really so blessed when donald trump said run for vice president because he was

getting kicked out of the governor's mansion if he had run for re-election. that was basically guaranteed. >> i don't think it makes that much of a blessing now. it sounded good at the time. >> i want to ask you about a phrase that was trending afterwards. that is whipping out that mexican thing. >> sweetheart, i thought for a while -- >> why. why would you do that? >> would you like to see the moment, again? >> why, why would you do that? >> it's going to be great. >> when donald trump says women should be punished or mexicans are rapists and criminals or john mccain is not a hero, he is showing you who he is. >> senator, you whipped out that mexican thing, again. look -- >> can you defend it? >> criminal aliens in this country, tim, who have come into this country illegally. >> you want to take -- >> and he also said many of them are good people. you keep leaving that out of

your quote. >> he actually said, i guess some of them might be good people. >> and i assume some are good people. >> if you can get past the phrase, what did you think of that exchange? >> look, i think you really have to be careful about thing. don't talk about the woman thing, don't talk about the black thing, don't talk about the latino thing, the mexican thing. just take the word thing right out of your mouth. latino twitter is not happy about this, i can tell you. i got a ton of traffic about it. i'm glad you brought it up. i think it went off real badly with a lot of the latinos and it's trending today. the mexican thing and people are talking about their american dream stories. their immigrant stories when they first came here. so, it is backfiring and i think it's going to be something that you're going to see played out more today and tomorrow. >> and beyond the potential humorous nature of the phrasing, i thought it was really very powerful statement by pence.

the mexican thing. it was powerful in trying to, "a" distance himself from donald trump. "b," trying to make americans forget how horribly racist and antilatino and anti-hispanic donald trump had been but mostly patronizing and minimizing. like you can take away everything donald trump has said horribly about mexicans. about immigrants, about building a wall and an esteem judge of origin as if senator kaine was having some kind of -- >> i think you're overthinking it. let me remind you that mike pence was actually pro-immigration when he was in congress. he was a leader on the immigration movement. he was very compassionate on it. it's one of the areas where he has a dramatic -- >> let's not forget why mike pence is there. he is there to bring the republicans back in the tent who strayed who didn't like donald trump in the primary and

according to recent polls, he's brought a lot of the men back. they need to bring some of the women back. >> that's not happening. >> i agree with christine there. i think by tomorrow, i'm hoping that by today we're focusing on a hurricane and not focus ing o the vp debate. >> thank you for the feisty panel. our polls show that mike pence won the debate, but that didn't stop tim kaine and his supporters from celebrating. among them virginia governor terry mcauliffe. what is he so happy about? he's getting his groove on. worl, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine. all seems beautiful to me.

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both sides celebrating their candidates' performance in the cnn debate. 48% of watchers thought republican mike pence won the debate. that did not stop top democrat tim kaine and his supporters from doing a little celebrating. that is governor of virginia, terry mcauliffe doing a little bit of the cabbage patch. he's stirring it it up a little bit. feeing good, getting his shoulders moving. the governor joins us now.

what are you so happy about, governor? >> chris, first of all, ia pa apologized to my staff, i broke the cardinal rule. i danced in public. we're excited the debate yesterday was in virginia along with university. really put on a great show. i was excited about that. listen, i sat in the front row and i listened to every word and i thought tim kaine did exceptional. laid out the plan that he and hillary are going to do for this country and i thought he put governor pence on the defensive right from the start. had to have governor pence try to defend donald trump, the things he has said on immigration and on not paying taxes is a smart thing to do. you know, the issue of nuclear weapons in japan and other countries. you know, i thought tim did a very excellent job of bringing out that contrast between the two sides. >> what you do is often second to how you do it, in politics. certainly on the debate stage. did you think he was too amped up? for those who know senator kaine

when he knows he can play to advantage he does get hyper excited. >> i think there was a lot of material for tim to work with last night. the only debate the vice presidential candidates were going tahave. tim very effectively reminded the american public, here's what the head of the other ticket. here's what donald trump has said. some are shocking to viewers to listen. tim very thoughtful and optimistic and a great vision for this country. as you know, governor, lieutenant governor, city councilman all here in virginia. he brought his intelligence to that debate to say here's what we stand for, here's what hillary and i want to do for you. how do you, michael pence, defend donald trump? i know governor pence very well. i serve as chairman of the association and work with governor pence. we have a good relationship. michael pence was in a very tough position. he cannot defend donald trump

and he didn't defend him. as you know, he just moved off of it. if i was pence, i would have done the same thing. >> until this. this was the one moment of the night where governor pence decided to take on what donald trump has said versus his reckoning of what hillary clinton has said. this is the deplorable sound bite from last night. here it is. >> he says ours is an insult-driven campaign. did you all just hear that? ours is an insult driven campaign. to be honest with you, if donald trump said all the things you said he said and the way he said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that hillary clinton when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. >> what does that moment mean to you? >> well, i thought tim dealt with that very effectively. he came out and said hillary clinton the next day came out and apologized and said she shouldn't have said it and then, of course, he pivoted.

donald trump hasn't apologized to john mccain. donald trump hasn't apologized to the insults on women, the wall. donald trump in his first 100 days wants to deport all the folks in this country. as tim said, 15 million, 16 million people. it's impractical and not going to happen. listen, there is a vast difference. governor pence was in a very tough decision. i've done a lot of high-profile debates and he went in in a very tough position. he has to defend the head of his party. his nominee for president who has said the most, i will say this, donald trump has said the most deplorable things about individuals and just hard to defend that record. >> why do you think in a cnn overweighted democratic poll he won it? >> i don't. >> he did. 48-42. so, why do you think the poll people disagree with you? >> i guess some people are watching it and, you know, listen, i do say governor pence,

i had a good relationship with him. i think he has a cool demeanor. i think some people watch that. tim was very effective in getting the points out. if you're sitting there last night, chris, and you're watching it. who will take this economy to the next level? listen, i'm sitting here in the commonwealth of virginia, the lowest of any major state in america. what people want from their elected officials, work together, build your economy and strong education and i think those were very effective points tim made that it relates to the ticket on the other side. they're not open and welcoming to everybody. they have been very divisive and insulting and we have 34 days to go. we have had consistently a very strong lead in virginia. since january went up anywhere from 7 to 12 points because hillary clinton is laying a vision out of how we work together. we're stronger together. how you get this economy moving for the middle class of this country. but all the other stuff aside, how do we get this economy working for everybody in

america? it works here in virginia and i could tell you, tim was a great governor here and he's going to take that message to the national level and help the other states. >> governor terry mcauliffe, keep dancing. i can't care what they say, if you feel it, you do it, brother. thank you. >> governor, thank you. >> he had some happy feet there. we support that. so did governor mike pence do enough to defend donald trump last night? trump supporter and congressman will weigh in, next. i'm claudine and i quit smoking with chantix.

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governor mike pence being called the winner of last nig night's debate. he will by in the crucial swing state of pennsylvania today. how will his debate performance help the campaign? chris collins the republican from new york and co-chair of the co-chair house committee. good morning, congressman. >> good morning, alisyn. >> how do you think last night's debate performance will change the campaign going forward? >> alisyn, to start with, mike pence was very professional. stayed calm and cool, as, frankly, you know, when we saw tim kaine, tim kaine was rude. he was insulting. he was talking over mike pence

who just, you know, had to sit there and take it. but, you know, if the people or the public after watching that said who would i trust to be the president of the united states if tragedy were to strike, mike pence would be the overwhelming choice. tim kaine looked unhinged. so, i think just that the demeanor of mike pence would do a lot to calm people. i think tim kaine hurt hillary's team. i thought hillary was the most unlikable politician until i saw tim kaine last night. i think he lapped her. >> wow, congressman, these are strong words. unhinged. what is a moment that you thought tim kaine was unhinged? >> well, when he kept yapping about trump's taxes and then making up things that he took donald trump's words out of context. >> such as? >> even at the end there he said he wants to deport 16 million

immigrants in the first 100 days. >> daonald trump never said the first 100 days but he did talk about a deportation during the primary, congressman. >> what he was speaking about was the immigration control group and what he said at the end is that we're going to secure the wall, secure the borders and build a wall and make sure that we deport the criminal elements and then we'll deal with those who are currently, lawfully, you know, living by our laws, even though they came here illegally. >> this is a metamorphous from what donald trump first said. he said every single one of them had to go. >> donald trump, as hillary has, as well, rhetoric changes. donald trump who is not a career politician like hillary clinton. granted, his rhetoric has changed and he is a much more presidential now than maybe he was. >> so his position changed is what you're saying.

>> sure. absolutely. not a problem there. >> not a problem for you, but, i mean, of course, the fact that he has said at one time that he did want a deportation force and that every single one of the 12 to 14, we don't know how many of the undocumented immigrants were here, that always seemed impractical to people. you're saying donald trump has come around to recognizing that. >> well, i've said all along. we never were going to deport 11 million or 12 million illegal immigrants. we can process them in a way of making them legal. but the difference between he and hillary and tim kaine who are going to keep our borders open and still put this country at risk versus securing the border. donald trump is going to deport the criminal element that hillary and tim kaine have not. >> they have never said that -- congressman. they have never said they want open borders. and, as you know, president obama had deported a record amount of people.

he's known as deporter in chief. what you're claiming about open borders and not wanting to deport people aren't true. the facts don't support that. >> no. first of all, what he has done, when they stop someone at the border and turn them back, he counts that as a deportation. barack obama changed the definition of what deportation is. stopping someone at the border and not letting them in is not deporting them. but the difference is, donald trump is going to get the criminal element out here. there are many countries now who are saying they won't take back the criminal element. i can assure you donald trump is going to get those folks out of this country where right now they're walking our streets and when it comes to securing the borders, hillary and tim kaine are not going to change the fact that we have porous borders today. people surging in. they're not deporting the criminal element. donald trump is going to stand strong on it. that's the difference. >> congressman, i want to move on to a place where governor

pence did seem to deviate from donald trump in terms of his characterization and stance on vladimir putin. listen to this. >> the small and bullying leader of russia is now dictating terms to the united states to the point that all the united states of america. the greatest nation on earth just withdraws from talks about a cease-fire while vladimir putin puts a missile defense system in syria while he marshals the forces. >> congressman, is vladimir putin a great and strong leader, as he has been called by daonal trump or small and bullying leader as governor pence called him? >> well, there is no question. vulad peerpu vladimir putin is a bad guy. he is a bullying dictator. you know, they don't have the democracy we have here in america. and donald trump has

differentiated his role as commander in chief oto that of barack obama, who has let vladim vladimir putin walk all over the united states. whether it's currently in syria, whether it was in the ukraine. i think, again, people are taking out of context the word leader. the fact is, barack obama is no leader. neither is hillary clinton and i think -- >> vladimir putin is. to what donald trump's point is. >> the nuance, as donald trump has said, at least when vladimir putin sets his mind to something, it gets done. that's not the case with the embarrassment that we see today on the international stage with america in a diminished role under the lack of leadership of barack obama and hillary clinton. i think that's the nuance of that. people are getting hung up on the word leader. let's look at the results. the results of where the united states are today is an embarrassment which is why, you know, i think so many americans are supporting donald trump who

is going to put america first. >> congressman chris collins, great to get your perspective this morning on how the debate and everything else went. thanks so much. we have a political story and then this massive hurricane to track, matthew. powerful storm leaving destruction and flooding in the caribbean. it is now headed towards the east coast, specifically florida. we have a live update from the national hurricane center, next. afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine.

all seems beautiful to me.

hurricane matthew is now bearing down on the bahamas and expected to intensify. this powerful storm has slammed

haiti and cuba and you can see some of the aftermath here. the east coast is now on high alert bracing for matthew's arrival. chad myers joins us with the very latest forecast. what are you seeing at this hour, chad? >> i'm seeing a hurricane that really got mixed up. it got disintegrated by the eastern tip of cuba, but at this hour it is regaining strength already. so, what we saw was a storm that was very strong when it hit haiti. lost a little bit of power there and lost a lot of power overnight and now regenerating its power. now regenerating what will become now, as forecast, a new category 4 hurricane. we dropped down to category 3 because of that disruption in the air flow. kind of like putting your hand out the window. you could slow your car down a little bit. this big hand or 5,000-foot mountains slowed the storm down a little bit. let's get to what we're looking at for the rest of the day. we'll see this storm make a close approach to florida. this is the most important part

whether we get the landfall in florida or not is a big difference, certainly. this makes landfall and scours the entire coast of the u.s. as a category 4 storm. if it stays off shore 60 or 80 miles it is just a windmaker. we'll see some damage and flooding and see all that and certainly see huge beach erosion, but not a billion dollar storm. right now i don't know if it is 60 miles left or 60 miles right. we'll just have to keep watching this. >> let's bring in dr. rick knabb joining us live from miami and i have chad with me, too. thank you very much. we know the reconnaissance planes out there and trying to get real-time information and whether it's rebuilding. what can you tell us? >> we can already see indications that the thunderstorm activity is starting to fire back up, again. it took kind of the path of least resistance in between haiti and cuba. so, it hasn't spent that much

time over the mountainous terrain and it hasn't been all that much disruptive and we have no reason to believe this will weaken significantly before getting close to florida. we might see ups and downs in the intensity. between category 3 and 4 at times. the bottom line, major hurricane will be approaching florida tomorrow and tomorrow night. >> dr. knabb, hey, it's chad myers. i'm talking about the pressure now. i know this is a technical term. we had the plane go through at 62. we have that low of pressure even after hitting land twice. this could still blow up to a much more dangerous storm, couldn't it? >> it could certainly intensify, again. and sometimes major hurricanes weaken temporarily, even over open waters and then come back, again. the internal structure can change. you can have eyewall replacement cycles. i wouldn't worry too much what those flucuation fluctuations a

be. that's what we want people to be preparing today for the hurricane warning areas. >> let me ask you this not from the metee meteorological perspe. what kind of things do you think they should prepare for and where and what is the range of scenarios? >> sure. now, we have watches and warnings that specify which hazards have a possibility of occurring or are expected to be occurring. when it comes to the hurricane force winds, that's what the hurricane warnings are for. might not just be a coastal event. the closer this comes to the coast of florida or even comes on shore, the farther inland, the storms will occur. i live inland and i'm getting ready for strong winds and preparing for that today. it's not just about the wind. storm surge and inland flooding caused by heavy rainfall are

also hazards that could be experienced, especially in the eastern part of the florida peninsula. prototype storm surges and warnings and in terms of rainfall. all the hazards are worse the closer to the coast this gets. >> doctor, it's chad, again. taking a look at the track of the storm just paralleling the coast. honestly, 20 miles off shore or right on shore. are we evacuating people early enou enough? do we want to move them sooner? we could honestly have a storm of a category 3 or 4 power on or at least close to land for 500 miles, if it follows that coast all the way up to georgia? what should people be doing? what should leaders and managers and emergency managers be talking about right now? >> yeah. because of the possibilities you just described. because of this track having the potential to affect multiple states for days we have been talking in the weather service

and the hurricane center with emergency managers in florida, georgia, south and north carolina, fema, they have been very proactive in terms of going back to the weekend of precautions and evacuation instructions are given. if you live in an area and your officials tell you to evacuate, you need to go. they have been talking with all of us and making decisions based on the best possible information. >> all right, doctor, thank you very much. chad, let's check back with the doctor in the next hour and see what's changed from them. thank you, fellows. i'll see you soon. we have been talking about more than 1 million people on south carolina's coast are expected to evacuate their home today. urging people to prepare for a direct hit and live in daytona beach, florida. what are you seeing there, boris? >> hey, alisyn, right now a

picture perfect day in daytona beach. people walking up and down the beach and people taking selfies. this will change as we get closer to seeing the effects of hurricane matthew. there is a good chance that this might just graze the coast of florida but people are not taking any chances. they're preparing for a direct hit. governor rick scott preparing across the state saying this is an extremely dangerous storm and a hurricane that killed seven people in the caribbean. they're not taking any chances. we've seen long lines outside of gas stations and grocery store shelves with water and nonperishable food items that have been emptied out. already 500 national guard members that have been deployed. we also heard of mandatory evacuations just south of here where several barrier islands have been evacuated. we're likely to see more of that as the storm gets closer, especially in coastal communities. the governor, again, saying that if you think you're going to have to leave, it's best to do it now and stay ahead of the storm.

chris? >> all right, boris. florida so sophisticated in how to deal with this but always a numbers game. how soon, how much do you do? we'll keep track of it. boris, thank you very much. now, the political reality is that the vice presidential debates don't normally make that big a deal in the race, but that's not what the gop ticket was hoping for this time. they were hoping that mike pence could really reset this race and give an entirely different feel to the ticket. so, we're going to look at the big moments and see whether or not they got what they wanted, next. "is that credit karma again?"

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all right. you see it there. donald trump's running mate mike pence being called the winner of last night's vp debate in cnn's instant poll. the main questions this morning, what will it change? what will it impact? starting today. and what will it mean for the next presidential debate between

donald trump and hillary clinton? so let's bring in cnn's senior political analyst and senior editor for the atlantic ron brownstein. cnn political analyst david gregory. and cnn politics executive editor mark preston. great to have all of you here. ron, what does change this morning after last night's debate? >> you know, i thought the debate was actually the whole campaign in miniature. you know, after eight years, after one party's in the white house for eight years, there is always a case for change. and mike pence very effectively and energetically pressed the case for change. kept tim kaine on the defensive on the issue agenda, both the record of the obama administration and the clinton proposals for 2016. but pence and the other part of the miniaturization of the whole election struggled enormously to defend many of the things that donald trump has said and done. airbrushing them or simply ignoring them. and that really kind of gives you the whole campaign in a box. there is an audience for change, as there has been in every time we've had a two-term president since world war ii. but donald trump is having

trouble convincing more than around 40% of americans that he is the kind of change they feel comfortable with. >> mark preston, how big of a deal do you think it was? it only came up a little bit last night from mike pence about what bill clinton has said about obamacare. we have some sound to play. >> the people who are getting killed in this deal are small business people, and individuals who make just a little too much to get any of these subsidies. why? because they're not organized. they don't have any bargaining power with insurance companies. and they're getting whacked. so you've got this crazy system where all of a sudden 25 million more people have health care and then the people who are out there busting it sometimes 60 hours a week wind up with their premiums doubled, and their coverage cut in half. it's the craziest thing in the world. >> now, the democrats in the clinton campaign will say he cleaned this up afterwards saying you've got more people covered, you've got 90% of the country covered.

it doesn't change his fundamental point. he pointed out a flaw in obamacare. pence echoed it. how big of a deal? >> it's certainly a big enough deal that we're talking about it. i don't know if it's going to break through in the end among hillary clinton and donald trump. it really rush on the shoulders of donald trump to see how effectively he's able to bring it up sunday night. the problem for hillary clinton is that's her husband. the fact of the matter is, is that he was giving voice, bill clinton was giving voice, to a lot of people who are very frustrated with obamacare in the fact that it's costing them a lot more money. now that it's implemented. >> well, exactly. i mean david gregory, this is the thing. obamacare has not been a very big issue in this election. but this is the thing that galvanized republicans. they felt that this was being rammed down their throats. they felt that this was a mandate they didn't need. they predicted that premiums would go up. bill clinton to go off script, so much and say this is the craziest thing in the world,

does it regenerate that conversation now for the campaign? >> yes, i think it can. and i think it was -- it was terribly off message for bill clinton to be engaged in that and it's just another discordant note for him, meeting on the tarmac with loretta lynch the attorney general was another low point of this campaign that i think made hillary clinton's job harder. i think there's no question. but i think it goes to ron's point more largely, which is that, you know, pence was able to kind of sweep the landscape and say, this is why there's all this energy, and this is why there's a rationale for a trump candidacy if you look at the expansion of government, as we see in health care, in obamacare, and what is yet to be done, what has to be changed. they're calling for total repeal. if you look at the international stage. and what has not been done. what's been done poorly. how dangerous it remains. that's the case for change. but i do think at the end, even though pence probably wins on style points, that even in an overly caffeinated tim kaine had

an enthusiasm and a gusto going after trump that i think has the ability to continue to enthuse elements of the democratic base that they need to turn out and get excited. so going through those bullet points and all those attacks which i don't think that pence really wanted to answer, i think ultimately was job done for the democratic side. >> tim raising kane last night in that debate. ron brownstein you love to look inside the demographics and see the race as a function of who each of these candidates needs to get. what did you see on display last night? >> that's a great question. it was kind of the alternate reality of this campaign. right? mike pence was most effective when he kind of turned the prism so you would see donald trump through the lens of kind of conventional republican small government arguments. he linked him to kind of the reagan economic strategy. he linked him to the peace through strength of reagan, and he basically tried to tie trump as much as he could to conventional conservative

republican thinking over the last several decades and that has the opportunity to kind of remind voters, particularly i think college educated white men where he is significantly underperforming, hey, this is a republican who's going to cut taxes and regulation. tim kaine on the other hand, in addition to prosecuting trump's words against pence did touch on issues that animate a lot of different elements of that democratic coalition. he hit very hard on criminal justice reform. he really went after pence on immigration issues. at the end, his very impassioned defense of abortion rights, you know, when i was talking about this kind of an alternate reality of what this campaign might have been, a more conventional republican argument for change against a democratic agenda that animates the growing elements of the electorate in their coalition, you really got a sense of that in the debate. that's kind of a toss-up election. but the big, extra thing on the scales is all of the things that donald trump has said and done over the years, and the difficulty mike pence had in defending many of them, i think are going to leave people to wonder whether he, too, considers some of them indefensible.

>> it's just hard to believe that mike pence is really on the same page with donald trump. or that he's reinforcing that trump message. there's way too much distance between them. so yes he looks like a more conventional republican, sounds like one, but that's really not the song that donald trump is singing. >> we heard it last night on russia speakly mike pence was much more hard line, much more sounding like hillary clinton in terms of the way you should treat this man, the way you should reward this man. and he did not want to own a lot of the things that donald trump said. however he did have that moment where he tried to balance everything that donald trump said, even taken at tim kaine's word, versus using the word deplorable, and he said, that's worse than everything that trump has said. mark preston, do you think that sells? >> i mean, no. well i mean, look, he tried -- he tried to make it sell. but the fact is tim kaine time and time again basically he used that 90 minutes last night to try to bring up every bad thing, every crass statement that donald trump has made. and you know, we showed that

poll number at the beginning that showed that mike pence had won the debate. a couple things, one is vice presidential debates, voters don't look at those numbers and say okay i'm voting for the republican ticket on that number. while mike pence had a good night no doubt certainly personally, you got to wonder if it's going to move the needle. but also within that poll, is two things, one is at the end of the night, the poll watchers said that tim kaine, 7 in 10 of those, that tim kaine is qualified to be president of the united states. nearly 8 in 10 said mike pence. but even more importantly, 58% of those poll watchers in that poll said that tim kaine did a better job of defending his running mate's record. only 35% said mike pence did. >> can i can i can i one quick thought? i'm not sure it will move the needle either. but i think pence pointed the way toward an argument that is more productive for donald trump than the kind of arguments that he has spent most of the campaign prosecuting. i mean as we talked about before, neither side has really

put a lot of energy into critiquing the policy agenda of the other side. but clinton and trump have put most of their energy into personally disqualifying the other. and pence showed an alternative path which is essentially after eight years there are always things that americans are dissatisfied with. you can make the case for change and he tried to, as i say, wrap trump in a more conventional, republican agenda and message. the problem is, it required him to ignore or airbrush a lot of the things donald trump has actually said in this campaign and beyond. >> all right. panel, we have to leave it there. we're out of time. thank you very much for all of your insights. we're following a lot of news this morning. so let's get right to it. >> the campaign of hillary clinton and tim kaine has been an avalanche of insults. >> donald trump says women should be punished, mexicans are rapists. >> you better hope trump wins. >> governor pence said inarguably vladimir putin is a better leader than -- >> absolutely inaccurate. >> he doesn't even know how wrong he is.

>> because hillary clinton and barack obama failed -- >> we are back at war. >> i'd love to hear governor pence tell me what's so enjoyable or comical about nuclear war. >> did you work on that one a long time? >> he is asking everybody to vote for somebody that he cannot defend. >> this is "new day," with chris cuomo and alisyn camerota. >> good morning, everyone. welcome to your "new day." tim kaine and mike pence sparring last night over issues, interruptions, and insults. cain repeatedly hammering pence over donald trump's most inflammatory statements with pence deflecting. >> it was interesting, pence came out on top in our poll as we'll tell you in just a moment but how did he do it? did he do it keeping his distance from donald trump and what he said? the stakes could not be more high. four days until the next presidential debate. just 34 days until election day. we have all the news for you. cnn's phil mattingly starts us off live in virginia. phil? >> good morning, chris. the goals for the candidates

last night weren't exactly a secret. tim kaine make it all about donald trump. for mike pence, show that there is someone on the ticket who's calm and steady. their pathway to achieve those goals, though, a bit of a rocky performance. >> donald trump -- >> i must have hit a nerve here. >> reporter: hotly contentious from the start. >> i can't imagine how governor pence can defend the insult driven, self-ish style of donald trump. >> reporter: the vice presidential debate becoming a night of whose candidate is more insulting. >> senator you and hillary clinton would know a lot about an inadult driven campaign. >> reporter: tim kaine repeatedly putting miami peeks on the defensive, using donald trump's own words. >> he's called women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. he went after john mccain, a p.o.w., and said he wasn't a hero. >> reporter: words pence, in many cases, didn't directly defend. >> when donald trump says women should be punished, or mexicans are rapists and c