good evening. donald trump tonight not letting up on the attack and not ruling out the possibility that more damaging tapes of him exist. listen to what he told the crowd today on the trail in pennsylvania. >> if they want to release more

tapes saying inappropriate things, we'll continue to talk about bill and hillary clinton doing inappropriate things. >> now let me show you this and i'll just show you what a difference a campaign makes. this is clinton celebrating donald trump and melania trump's wedding. after the past 72 hours, you can say this is the last time you'll see these four doing this kind of thing again. clearly a whole new world. this coming just days after a tape of him surfaced of him telling billy bush being able to sexually assault woman and get away with it because he's a celebrity. now the possibility of existing tapes on and growing confidence on the clinton side, which is where we begin with cnn's joe john's in detroit. so joe, what's the strategy for the clinton campaign in the wake of the leaked tape over the weekend and the debate. >> well, one of the things they're definitely trying to do and have been trying to do for a while, anderson, is get more voters registered, so they'll be able to vote on election day, and even before that, in early

voting, the registration deadline here in the state of michigan, as well as in ohio, is tomorrow, so they're working very hard on that. they're also trying to make the case for what hillary clinton would do as president, but that kind of messaging, they say, is a little bit difficult, because donald trump attracts so much media attention. they say it's very hard for them to get their message through. on the other hand, they're putting out a lot of ads in the hopes that they can reach voters very directly. at the same time, important to say that donald trump is a person who they believe they need to keep the heat on again and again and again, showing not only why they believe he is not qualified to be president, but why hillary clinton is qualified. if you listen to the sound bite tonight, from the ohio state university hillary clinton, the largest rally of her campaign. you can see some of that at play. listen.

>> and tonight day, on the day that i was in the situation room, watching the raid that brought osama bin laden to justice, he was hosting "celebrity apprentice." so if he wants to talk about what we've been doing the last 30 years, bring it on! >> there's been more talk within the clinton camp of trying to expand the map, stepping up their game in red states. what's the latest on that? >> right, they've talked about that again and again, and they're talking about arizona, they're talking about the state of georgia, typical red states, some suggestion from my colleague, dan merica, who's been traveling with them the whole time, that there's a trip in the works to talk to evangelicals. the essential idea is to make the trump campaign work hard in defending states that typically would be gop strongholds,

anderson. >> today wikileaks put out another 2,000 clinton campaign, john podesta e-mails. what was in them and how has the campaign responded? >> reporter: a lot of it is my minutea, and even some things that people, frankly, wish they hadn't written, including one staffer suggesting that hillary clinton's daughter, chelsea, is a spoiled brat. but the clinton campaign put out a statement, putting all of this on donald trump. the whole wikileaks problem. and i think we have that right now. it says, among other things, it's absolutely disgraceful that the trump campaign is cheering on a release today, engineered by vladimir putin to interfere in this election, and it comes after donald trump encouraged more espionage over the summer, and continued to deny the hack even happened in sunday's debate. the timing shows that even putin

knows trump had a bad weekend and a bad debate. so, the debate over the wikileaks continues and it probably will all the way to november, anderson. >> more e-mails to be released. joe john, thanks. both candidates appearing to be pleased with their debate performances. i want to take a closer look at how viewers may have been perceived it. they've been dissecting the debate on social media, including the nonverbal aspects. our gary tuchman consulted a body language expert to break it down for us. >> when people use their voices, they can lie, they can tell fibs, but body language sometimes uncovers those lies and fibs. right mcmorgan? >> that's absolutely true, gary. >> let's watch the beginning of this debate. >> well, day didn't shake hands, first and foremost. and as everybody's noted, that's awkward and showed the level of hostility that existed. more interesting, perhaps, was that when hillary walked out, she walked with a real kind of grounded confidence. she had a big smile on her face,

it looked real. trump, on the other hand is -- his head is pitched forward, he's squinting, he's got a fake smile on his face. he doesn't look as confident and as happy to be there. >> when hillary clinton was talking about e-mails, you notice something about donald trump's expressions while he was listening to her. let's watch. >> obviously, if i were to do it over again, i would not. i'm not making any excuses. >> he shuts his eyes, his body language indicates he's disengaged. he moves back and forth. he looks like he would rather be anywhere but there. >> let's watch hillary clinton's reaction when she hears something that she doesn't like. >> and believe me, she has tremendous hate in her heart. and when she said "deplorables," she meant it. >> her first reaction was literally for her to jaw to drop, her mouth to open. she shocked. and then she went into the fake smile to conceal her anger. it's a classic way people who aren't terribly comfortable with

expressing anger use to hide their real feelings. and it creates a reaction in us that this person isn't being sincere. >> one thing a lot of people noticed, a lot of viewers, is what is perceived to be donald trump looming behind hillary clinton. >> and i'm going to fix it. because i agree with you. >> so what he's trying to do there, whether consciously or unconsciously, is to distract her. and she does very well by continuing to focus on the questioner and answer the question. and his lurking behind her is, i believe, an attempt to intimidate, but the result is -- doesn't have any effect on her. >> there's a lot of talk about donald trump's sniffing. >> so abusive to women. [ sniffs ] any way you want to say it, i'm going to say it. [ sniffs ] it's been a disaster. >> you don't think the sniffing has anything to doing with a cold or being sick.

>> he's marking his thoughts, his phrases there, and he's indicating approval. so he's saying to himself, nailed that one. that was good, there goes another one. and so this is a way he has of keeping track of where he is in the thought process. >> so the sniff is like an exclamation mark? >> absolutely. >> but he's not aware he's doing it? >> i think it's unconscious. clearly it's a nervous tick that he uses to talk to himself and give himself a pat on the back and it's not working for him. >> one more debate left, as a coach and an expert in this, what piece of advice do you have for hillary clinton? >> i think hillary meeds to get more comfortable with her emotions. >> donald trump? >> donald trump badly needs to reestablish some sort of trust. at a simple body language level, he needs to open uh, open his eyes, warm it up, stop scowling at us. >> that's gary tuchman reporting. more now on what a variety of people take away. joining us, atlantic magazine james fallous, who's written the cover story, "who will win the debates and the election."

i want to get his thoughts after. also with us, republican consultant debate coach and communications strategist, bret o'donnell, and our chief political analyst, gloria borger. gloria, with paul ryan saying what he has said, is this just a sign he thinks it's impossible for donald trump to become president? >> i think it is. i think he's taking a look at the polls and you don't have to be a rocket scientist or speaker of the house to understand that this is all heading in a really bad direction for donald trump. and what he is doing and has been doing, quite frankly, is giving members permission to go their own way. because he doesn't want to lose control of the house, nor does he want republicans to lose control of the entire congress. and he got a little bit of push back on that from congressman in ruby red states, who feel like it's really in their benefit to be on the trump train, but i think it was very clear from what he was saying, it was like, each man for himself, here. you've got to do what you've got to do in order to save your own skin.

>> james, if you look at the polling now, the first polls that have come out since the tape leaked on friday, and it's really incredible, when you look at this. hillary clinton, with an 11-point lead in a four-candidate race, a 14-point lead when it's just her and donald trump. has a candidate ever come back from a double-digit deficit like this? >> not in modern times. there's never been, i think, probably since the republican bull moose split of more than a century ago, there's never been this kind of defection of elected senior officials from their party's nominee. paul ryan is still careful to say that he condemns and doesn't support donald trump. on the other hand, he's still voting for him. he's technically endorsed him. but many, many other members of the senate and house, governors, have said they're not voting for him at all. and i think there is just no precedent for this at all in modern times. >> and bret, do you have trump also doubling down, saying that if more tapes come out, he'll turn around, continue the attacks on clinton. is that the kind of strategy, you think, is going to get him new voters, more voters? >> no, the strategy that's going to get him new voters is for him

to display total contrition, to say that those were in the past and that i'm changed now, the campaign has changed me, so that any tapes that come out, any new tapes that come out, he can point back and say, look, i'm a changed man, i'm different, i'm moving forward, and then start talking about issues that are important to the american people. if it becomes intentionally personal, that's not helpful to trump and it's definitely not helpful to the american people. >> although, gloria, if you're a trump supporter, a lot of people believe last night, you know, who support donald trump, that he stopped the bleeding, essentially, with his debate performance last night. >> well, what he did was sort of give a primary debate performance, to a great degree. so he was preaching to the choir, when he was getting personal about hillary clinton, i mean, "lock her up" has been the big cry at the republican convention and he did his own version of that last night, you know, "i'd put you in jail." the problem that i think some

republicans had is that he can't win with his base. he's got to broaden this out. and the way he can do that is to talk about the issues that some conservatives wanted to talk about, which is, say, obamacare, or trade, or status quo versus change. hillary clinton is untrustworthy on the e-mails. those are the issues that have a lot of resonance for republicans, but we saw him out on the campaign trail today, and he is talking about these personal issues over and over again, which leads them to believe that it's not really about the republican party for donald trump, it's about donald trump. >> james, i mean, you and i have been talking in the weeks running up to this, to last night's debate, you wrote this amazing cover story for "the atlantic" about debating, talking to all different people about sort of strategies for debating. i'm wondering what stood out to you? i read some of your tweets in

the wake of the debate, you were live tweeting last night, and you focused on, you know, donald trump saying if he were president, she'd be in jail. what else really jumped out? >> there are a lot of things, i think because this is not the first time we've seen donald trump, we're sort of used to things he does. if this were the first time, they would stand out. on substance, the "she would be in jail" thing was outrageous. in terms of style, there was something that you saw in person and the rest of us were seeing on tv, and i've received a flood of mail about this in the last 24 hours, from women, who felt that donald trump's looming up behind hillary clinton in this huge way was something that just was, for many female -- mainly female viewers, just this atavistically terrifying thing. i mentioned, we talked about jane goodell and a primate analogy, but this is something he may have done as a dominance display, but it did not go over well with female viewers. >> you've said debates can't win elections, but they can lose them. how do you think each candidate

handled the format last night? i mean, they didn't get to ask have many questions, and they were seemingly ignored and lost in the back and forth between trump and clinton. i thought trump got so intentionally personal that it probably was very uncomfortable for people seated around them, and i didn't think hillary did a particularly good job of connecting with the audience as well. so i think the real losers last night in the debate was the town hall, the kind of different format that that debate brings, where an audience is a major component. >> and james, i mean, nine days is the final debate, assuming it takes place, and no reason to believe it won't. do you expect to see donald trump using the same strategy or -- i mean, this is obviously not a town hall format. chris wallace is a single moderator. i guess there's no way to really know. i mean, nine days in this election is a lifetime.

>> it is true. we don't know whether he'll show up. we don't know whether he'll have a team of advisers. i will say, as i was saying last night online, i thought that actually the format last night, i thought the moderators did a good job of including the audience and being able, also, to persistently follow lines of argument. i thought they set a good example. what trump will do in the next couple of days, we don't know, but i think we've seen that hillary clinton through her debating career has never really been wrong-footed. in the face of a lot of different stuff coming at her, include having the four women in the audience, she managed to keep more or less on keel. >> james, bret, gloria, thank you all. fascinating discussion. just ahead, the possibility that more trump hot mike moments exist. and more insight into how the tape we do have got on the radar. and we'll focus more on the tone of last night's debate and how it differs from anything anyone as ever seen in moderate debate history. who says i shouldn't have a soda everyday?

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breaking news tonight on the question that came up practically the moment that the donald trump/billy bush video hit the air. is there more out there like this? >> i've got to use some tic tacs just in case i start kissing her. you know, i'm automatically attracted to beautiful -- i just start kissing them, like a magnet. i don't even wait. and when you're a star, they let you do it. you can do anything. >> whatever you want. >> grab 'em by the pussy. you can do anything. >> look at those legs. all i can see is the legs. >> no, it looks good. >> come on, shorty. >> oh, nice legs, huh? >> that is, according to the department of justice, the definition of sexual assault. on saturday, bill pruitt, is a producer from the first two seasons of "the apprentice" claim there are other so-called hot mike clips that he claims are, in his words, far worse. late today, mark burnett says he does not have the legal ability to release show footage, denying reports that he's intentionally blocking material that may harm donald trump. whether that tape exists is an unknown. as far as the tape we have, we're learning more when nbc knew about it and when.

anchor of cnn's "reliable sources". why did it take so long for -- nbc had this tape. for how long and why did they release it? >> monday to friday. what they say is they were looking through these legal issues. now, it's also interesting they kind of said it had to do with consent. the guy was wearing a mike, he clearly had consent. california is a state that had two-way consent, so they had have to cover that, but they had it covered. they also said there was some kind of contractual issue, same thing mark burnett said. >> and let's be real, how much were they trying to protect billy bush, who was just evaluated to anchor -- >> that's the other thing. they said they weren't trying to protect him. my theory was that they were trying to edit him out. >> they just paid this guy how many millions of dollars to anchor the 9:00 "today" show. now they're going to release this tape. >> this was a multi-million dollar investment by nbc, he had just started, just moved to new

york with his family. if the plan was to try to protect him, the plan backfired. billy bush's suspension is effective immediately and goes on for as long as it goes on. the sources i have at nbc say he'll probably never be back on the "today" show. there was even a surprise party planned by nbc for this coming weekend, a billy bush welcome to new york surprise party. today it was canceled. and i don't know, is "access hollywood," who i guess originally had these tapes, is that owned by nbc? >> yes. that's another interesting thing. nbc news was allowing them to break the news, that "access hollywood" was going to break that story, and not nbc news. >> the question is how long did "access hollywood" know that they had these recordings. >> it was on the show for 11 years. they say they only remembered they had it last monday. still, that was a four-day period. "the washington post" turned this around in about four hours. >> an hour or two, cree. >> the other question now about "the apprentice." mark burnett says he cannot legally release take place that

he has. >> that doesn't -- that means -- he's saying that there's some contractual blockage. he has some deal with donald trump. donald trump was a co-owner of the show, so there's some possibility that that's a complication there. i think burnett is a pretty decent guy, i've known him for a long time. i don't think he would be in the middle of something he was trying to manipulate like this, if it was really explosive. but there's some other aspect of this. and nbc would say, we're not going to comment on what it is. i said, there's some mysterious issue here, and they said, yes. >> we should point out, there was a report, i can't remember where it was online, saying that burnett had threatened people with lawsuits -- >> buzzfeed reported this. he denies it. >> he's denied it categorically. in fact, he said he's not even a trump supporter. >> but a friend of trump, for sure. >> i think this is a reminder that trump was in some ways supported by nbc through "the apprentice," right? he rose up for years through "the apprentice." this has been an nbc story through and through.

it was an nbc "access hollywood" tape that ultimately did really severe damage by his campaign, yet it ended up being leaked through the "washington post." but throughout all of this, donald trump is the entertainer is what we see. he's producing this spectacle, this show up until the last day of the election. >> so on this "apprentice" thing, we don't know if those tapes -- >> we don't know if they're real. the thing that came out today, the transcript of a conversation, it didn't seem that bad and i don't think it would effect it -- >> other news divisions are doing the same thing. looking at their transcripts, trying to find -- >> donald trump's been on a lot of these tv shows. >> fascinating days. donald trump admits he's not paid federal income taxes for years, says he's proud of it. the question is, should he be? we'll look at it, next.

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donald trump has admitted that he hasn't fade federal income taxes for years. at the debate, i asked him about "the new york times" report on three pages of his taxes from the '90s, showing he claimed a loss of almost $1 billion. did you use that $916 million loss to avoid paying federal income taxes for -- >> of course i do. of course i do.

>> so how is it someone who's supposedly so rich pays no federal income tax? you're probably not going to like the answer. cnn senior investigative reporter drew griffin reports. >> reporter: it's become the center of democratic attacks against him. the idea, the speculation that billionaire donald trump pays no federal income tax. not only is that possibly true, says real estate tax attorney, richard lipton, in the big world of big league real estate, it's perfectly legal and almost expected. >> most real estate investors pay very little, if any, tax provided that they are active real estate investors. >> reporter: that's right. active real estate investors can pay little to absolutely no taxes. and in sunday night's debate, donald trump made no apologies about it. >> see, i understand the tax code better than anybody that's ever run for president.

>> can you say how many years you have avoided paying federal income taxes? >> no, but i pay tax and i pay federal tax, too. but i have a write-off. a lot of it's depreciation, which is a wonderful charge. i love depreciation. you know, she's giving it to us. >> reporter: it is literally a gift from congress. the irs rules that allow businesses to write off depreciation on just about everything, even if it's a building, and even if the value of the building is increasing. here's how. think of a huge group of companies. that's what trump has. and what he listed on his financial disclosures. some may make big profits. some may have big losses. and some, like his real estate holdings, can have both at the very same time. take, for example, 40 wall street, one of trump's biggest properties. it could be making a huge amount of money on rent, but he could end up not owing income tax on it because of tax breaks like depreciation. example, you can write off wear and tear on cabinets, elevators, even the building itself, even though the building's market value is going up. if trump can add up enough on-paper losses year by year, he can basically erase his taxable

income from the property itself and even income from other trump operations, like licensing, leasing, and tv reality shows. ♪ money, money, money, money >> reporter: real estate expert richard lipton says it wouldn't be surprising if all these paper losses reduced donald trump's federal income tax to zero. >> so if you're running a tv show, call it "the apprentice," and you have real estate and it's generating losses, the tax losses from the real estate can be used to offset the income from your tv show. >> reporter: and the losses can be huge, even when your income is huge. thus, in 1995, donald trump files a tax return with a $916 million loss, but still, apparently, lives like a king. don't blame trump, says tax analyst and journalist lee shepard, blame the politicians who wrote the rules to benefit big developers. >> that's why we say that

commercial real estate is self-sheltering. that's why we look at a guy like donald trump and we say, is he at zero? it's like, yeah, he's a zero. >> drew, so we know we had this huge write-off in 1995, and could have prevented him from paying any federal income tax or personal income tax for many, many years, it sounds like it's feasible that he could still not be paying federal income tax. >> yes, and that could be what's preventing donald trump from releasing these tax records, not that audit that he talks about. see, anderson, there could be a huge flow of income coming through the front door of trump's organizations, but because of all of those tax advantages and write-downs and depreciation he talks about, the end result could be zero in terms of his federal tax liability. these experts say nothing illegal about it. in fact, nothing particularly special about what trump may be doing here. it is just the current tax law. >> and have you heard from the campaign any news on releasing those tax returns? >> i have asked again today, anderson, no response. >> someone who knows more than

most about trump's finances, timothy o'brien co-wrote a piece about trump's wealth. trump said of o'brien's sources, quote, you can go ahead and speak to guys who have 400-pound wives at home who are jealous of me. trump also sued him for $5 billion, but the case dragged because trump wouldn't turn over his tax and other financial records, and then a judge threw it out. timothy o'brien is the author of "trump nation: the art of being donald" and she joins me now. trump says, look, this massive write-off, it makes me incredibly smart, i know the tax code better than anybody. you actually say it makes him a bad businessman. >> it's a mammoth write-off, which is a loss in 1995. and at that point in time, he was very close to personal bankruptcy. so it wasn't as if at that time he was actually living like a king. he needed to borrow as much as $30 million from his siblings. otherwise, he would have been broke. he lost most of his major real estate holdings.

he was going into the crater in atlantic city. so he was in a very desperate state. it wasn't -- that loan, i think, drives from about $900 million in personal guarantees he gave against around $3.6 billion in loans he borrowed and couldn't pay back. >> the banks essentially needed him stay afloat. >> they needed him to stay afloat, because the banks didn't want to run all of this stuff they they would inherit him. they kept him on along enough to be able to move the stuff off the table. but, you know, for example, the west side yard, it's a huge parcel he owned at the time in new york. he kept for a few years until they found a chinese buyer. and then they forced him to sell it to them. >> what about the claim, though, that donald trump makes, look, politicians, he says, like hillary clinton who have passed these laws that allow him and other real estate developers to do this? >> well, it is. it's the tax code and he's well within his rights to use it aggressively to protect his income.

the reality, though, is trump has never had as much income as he says he has. he's a comfortably wealthy person, but he's not a mega-billionaire. and the trouble he runs into when he tries to talk his way around this is on the one hand, as he mentioned to you in the debates, he wants to present himself as a shrewd navigator of the tax code, on the other hand, he doesn't want to show the documents and reveal what the real underpinnings of his business are or show that he's not paying taxes at all. >> warren buffett, a hillary clinton supporter, he actually has now said he's paid taxes every year since 1944, including nearly $1.9 million last year. he also gave $2.85 billion to charity. >> in one year. >> in one year. and he's encouraged a lot of other billionaires to give away all their money to -- >> bill gates -- >> give away their money while they're still alive. obviously, compared to donald trump, trump has given away a fraction of someone like buffett. >> trump hasn't even given close. buffett has given away more in

one year. >> do you think buffett did this and talked about this publicly to tweak donald trump? >> he mentioned trump by name. when he released it today, he said, i've been under audit and i have no trouble releasing my taxes. mr. trump could easily do the same. there's no question that warren buffett sort of threw the gauntlet down on this to goad trump into releasing his taxes. i think buffett knows like anyone else the idea that there's an audit preventing donald trump from releasing his taxes is just garbage. >> timothy ryan, thanks so much. >> good to be here. up next, what does it mean for the dignity of the country when one presidential candidate calls the other the devil and says she has hate in her heart? i'll speak two presidential scholars, next. >> it is -- it's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of donald trump is not in charge of the law in our country. >> because you'd be in jail.

in case you're only just now starting to exhale from last night, i hate to break it to you, but there is another debate in nine days. after last night, tough to

imagine how much -- well, how much tougher it could possibly get. >> if you look at bill clinton are, far worse, mine are words and his was action. >> he has said that the video doesn't represent who he is. but i think it's clear to anyone who heard it that it represents exactly who he is. >> because bernie sanders, between super delegates and debora wasserman schultz, he never had a chance. and i was so surprised to see him sign on with the devil. >> okay, donald, i know you're into big diversion tonight. anything to avoid talking about your campaign and the way it's exploding and the way republicans are leaving you. >> believe me, she has tremendous hate in her heart. >> it's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of donald trump is not in charge of the law in our country. >> yeah, because you'd be in jail. >> joining me now, cnn's senior political analyst, david gergen, and presidential historian and history professor, douglas brinkley. i mean, david, for a candidate to say "you have tremendous hate in your heart," "the devil," when he said the devil thing, i

thought back to, i think it was hugo chavez talking about george w. bush on stage at the u.n. i mean, have you -- has there been rhetoric like this in a debate at this level? >> i can't remember one in modern times. if you go back in our country's history, they were vitriolic, but they usually composed their differences before it was all over. and in this case, we're more and more polarized and more and more separated. i must tell you, when it comes to who won the debate, they like to retreat, the voters won. we had a great -- last night, the voters lost. it was an embarrassment for the country. >> you really think so? >> i absolutely think so. i can't tell you the number of people who told me today, i went to bed win cringed. there's so much mud-slinging, it's very tiring for people and stressful for a lot of americans. >> douglas, throughout history, have we seen anything quite like this? this kind of no-holds-barred style, or certainly modern history? >> not in modern history.

the first presidential debate was in 1960. we haven't seen anything like that since it's been televised. and you would have to go back to the 19th century, in the era of duels and the caning of an opponent and the like to see such a crude, primitive behavior that donald trump exhibited. we're really looking at, i think it was like an ugly nightmare last night for people, watching him prowl around the stage and berate hillary clinton, talking like a third rate dictator, talking about, i'm going to jail my opponent. it was embarrassing for him. however, not significant, anderson, he was a wrecking ball of the republican party. he has decided to be the king of the alternative right and he's not going to be the one that loses. hillary clinton might beat him, but it's the gop that's going to lose, because trump's going to threaten, in comes years, to run a third party movement, to be in future debates. all you need is that 15% bar to qualify for the debate. the notion he's just going to resign and take it easy seems very unlikely. >> although he does, david, you

know, like winning, and so if -- does he really want to kind of be a parental third party, assuming he doesn't win this time around? >> i think he wants his brand to win and he's in some danger of that going south as well. let me just say, he was probably going to run last night. you were there as moderator, and i don't know -- it must have been very physical. >> it was very. i mean, i was reminded of -- the only other people i've seen kind of wandering around like that, al gore did a bit of that, john mccain sort of famously did, but with john mccain, it seemed more of like walking around. although john mccain did a fair amount of that, but others say that he was following her. >> he was like a lion in a cage to the viewer. this big, bulky guy prowling. i think that's right. but in fairness to him, you have to say that he did hearten his own supporters last night. >> without a doubt. >> and there's a good chance he'll get about 50 million votes before this is all over. romney got 59. >> and you can make the argument he came off in a better way than he did the first time. >> he was a better debater and i

don't think she was as quite as commanding. but i think he came up short on what he needed to do. he needed to win the debate. there's the cnn poll and another poll out there that both say she won the debate. i think what's distressing, anderson, to realize, there are 50 million people out there that are really angry. and his base is something we haven't seen before in my memory. and i don't know where that base goes. i think doug's asking the right question. what happens if he loses to all those 50 million people. where do they go in our politics and what matter does that make? >> next debate, nine days away. just ahead, we'll dig deeper on donald trump's claims that hillary clinton laughed at a 12-year-old victim in a rape case 40 years ago. you'll hear the tape for yourself. sweet sun ripened strawberries. no artificial flavors. philadelphia® strawberry. rich..., creamy...

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was raped at 12. her client, she represented got him off, and she is seen laughing on two separate occasions, laughing at the girl who was raped. cathy shelton, that young woman s here with us tonight. >> there is certainly no argument that clinton mounted a vision oarorous defense on behalf of her client. she's also true she laughed several years later in an interview but not when talking about the vichlt here's randi kaye. >> it happened on this stretch of highway in 1975. a 12-year-old girl brutally attacked by a 41-year-old man. they were reportedly in his pickup truck after midnight and parked in a ravine. that's where she says he beat and raped her. the sixth grader ended up in the emergency room. the young lawyer called on to defend the suspect in the case was none other than hillary rodham. she had moved to arkansas to be with her then boyfriend bill clinton.

hillary rodham was running the legal clinic at the university of arkansas in fayetteville. the defendant thomas alfred taylor, who denied the charge had requested a woman lawyer, so the judge appointed the future mrs. clinton. it would be her first criminal defense case. >> mailin gibson was the prosecutor at the time. >> the day after she was appointed, she called me and asked if i could get her unappointed. she didn't want to defend the rapist. >> reporter: despite her objections, clinton immersed herself in taylorese defense as she was legally obligated to do. >> in this affidavit, seeking a psychiatric evaluation of the victim. the rookie lawyer painted the victim as emotionally unstable. suggesting she brought false accusations like this before, that she fantd sized about older men, and experts say children like the victim tend to exaggerate or romanticize sexual experiences. cnn contributor, josh rogan interviewed the victim now in her 50s, in 2014, nearly four

decades after the crime. the victim said the allegations in the affidavit are untrue, she never romanticized sexual experiences or made any false accusations before. >> there's never been any evidence presented by anyone to substantiate the allegations that hillary clinton made in that affidavit. to the victim, this was an attempt by hillary clinton to smear her in order to exonerate her attacker. the victim believes that hillary clinton lied in order to win. >> reporter: a spokesman was citing information from experts and others hire in the case. in other words, the affidavit didn't express her opinions about the victim. clinton also insisted onnet getting her own expert opinion on the accuse rapist's under

wear after the crime lab cut out the key sample to test, then lost it. clinton brought what was left of the accused rapists underwear from arkansas to new york so a renowned forensic expert she hunted down could look it over. a move considered aggressive, even by the prosecutor's perspective. clinton's expert cast doubt on what was left of the evidence, saying it hardly showed the defendant's blood or semen. the prosecution's case began to unravel. >> we began to scramble and consider possibilities of lesser offenses. the story was mostly forgotten until in 2014 audio emerged of clinton talking about the case with an arkansas journalist back in the 1980s. listen to her laugh describing the moment she delivered her forensic expert's findings to the prosecutor. >> i just came from new york to

prevent the miscarriage of justice. >> those recordings were played by the victim during her interview. her reaction was anger. >> i heard that tape i was upset. you lied on me, and you are supposed to be for women? you call that being for women? what you done to me. and i hear you on tape, laughing. >> the clinton campaign says she was not laughing at the victim. a spokesman for the campaign told me, the reactions were very clearly expressions of disbelief at breakdowns in the handling of the case, and absurdity she encountered within the court system's bureaucracy. adding in the interview, she called this a terrible case, and it's clear she is pained to recall it. there's another piece of audio that clinton's critics have pointed to for some time. clinton on the same tape, laughing about her client passing a polygraph. >> he took a lie detector test, i had him take a polygraph,

which he passed, which forever destroyed my faith in polygraphs. what was said about it, the prosecutor had evidence. >> whatever evidence the prosecutor had was trumped by clinton's defense. in fact, even the prosecutor told us, clinton was doing what any good defense attorney would do. >> she was just doing her job, she was going to present the best defense she could. and she was certainly going to require us to prove his guilt. >> in a plea deal, she got her client's charges reduced from rape to unlawful fondling of a child. for rape, he could have gone to prison for life. instead, he was sentenced to one year in the county jail. even that was reduced two months for time served. clinton was asked about the case weeks after her audiotapes emerged, during this interview with an online parenting network in britain. >> when you are a lawyer, you often don't have the choice as to who you will represent, and

by the very nature of criminal law, there will be those who you represent that you don't approve of, but at least in our system, you have an obligation, once i was appointed i fulfilled that obligation. >> no matter her explanation, the victim sees it differently. >> she said the sentence was a miscarriage of justice. in the victim's view, you you cannot smear a rape victim and then turn around to be a defender or a role model for women. >> shortly after this case, clinton was inspired to set up arkansas's first rape hotline. randi kaye, cnn new york. >> we'll be right back. who says i shouldn't have a soda everyday? my doctor. my dentist. definitely my wife. wait, i know what i want. make sparkling water at home. and drink 43% more water every day. sodastream. love your water. our progressive direct rate... we let you compare great deals for reals! ...and our competitors' rates side-by-side, so you know you're getting a great deal.

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that does it for us, thanks for watching. cnn tonight with don lemon starts now. open warfare and not just with hillary clinton. donald trump take aim at the very top of his party. this is cnn tonight, i'm don lemon. as soon as the most powerful republican on capitol hill announces he won't campaign or defend trump. trump fires back, saying ryan should spend more time on new jobs and illegal immigration than fighting him. all this after a new