returns if he decides to release them. if president trump continues to keep his tax returns secret he will be breaking yet another long standing presidential tradition. thanks to all of us for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. i'm brine stelter and it's time for "reliable sources." our weekly look at the story behind the story. how the media really works, how the news gets made, a special el welcome to our viewers in the u.s. and all around the world on cnn international. ahead this hour will president-elect donald trump respect first amendment rights? and will he provide the same level of press access as past presidents have in we will have fresh reporting and experts standing by to discuss it. plus the plague of fake news and it really is a plague. i have some thoughts to share about how to separate fact from fiction. later megyn kelly speaking out about alleged sexuali

harassment by roger ails. what does it say about the future of fox news. first journalists standing by for more appointments by president-elect trump as he continues to hold meetings with possible cabinet choices. today on the agenda new york governor chris christie, former new york city mayor rudy guiliani -- sorry, i meant new jersey there and robert johnson the founder of b.e. te. also inn freeingingly manuo meeting with trump today and the president elect doing all this publicly at his resort in new jersey putting on a show for the cameras. even as his administration starts to take shape trump cannot resist lashing out on twitter. his latest targets the cast of hamilton after the cast had a message for vice president elect mike pence during friday night's program. trump tweeted on saturday and again this morning. saying the cast and producers of hamilton which i hear a is highly overrated should

immediately apologize to mike pence for their terrible behavior. i'm speechless. and then he turned his sights on "snl" after alec baldwin played trump as someone who is a little or a lot in offer his head. trump tweeted i watched parts of "snl" last night it is a totally one-sided biased show, nothing funny at all, equal time for us? we will get into what he means by equal time a little later. the big question is president-elect trump going to continue to make the media a real issue or is this all just a big distraction? would he rather have people talking about his tweets than the various controversies he is facing and his conflicts of interest involving his businesses. joining me now charles blow columnist for "the new york times," selena zito national political reporter and ben shapiro editor and chief of the daily wire.com. >> charles, do you believe this is a strategy by president-elect

tru trump, does he get people auld riled up in order to distract people from real controversies? >> i think it's a compulsion he really -- he is consumed. this is a guy from queens who wanted to be in new york city. his whole kind of social orbit is the new york city orbit. so that's why he's still kind of positions himself in new york city media. that's why he attacks "the new york times," that's why he attacks "snl," that's why he is attacking a broadway show. "the new york times" put together an amazing list of all the people he had attacked. take a look at that list and see how many of those personalities are people who are right here in new york city. it's almost as if he's not completely moved into the realm of being president of the entire united states, he's still obsessed about new york city and in that includes new york city media. >> selena, you have been asking

new yorkers about hamilton. do voters in pennsylvania and ohio do they care about this hamilton controversy? >> i went out into youngstown, ohio, yesterday and talked to a number of voters and i specifically talked to democrats who voted for clinton and asked them how they felt about it. while they had no problem with the speech that was given afterwards they did have a problem with the booing. they thought it was disrespectful and that they think that more respect should have been shown to him as a guy just going to see a play. >> so booing by the audience members when pence walked into the room. >> right. >> let me bring up trump's famous twitter feed and one of his tweets from yetd about this, one of his first comments about this controversy, he said the following, he said our wonderful future vp mike pence was harassed last night at the theater by the cast of hamilton, cameras blazing. then he said this should not happen. he is not talking about the booing there he's talking about the cast members' message.

>> right. >> ben, i read something like that, donald trump saying this should not happen and i think that has a chilling effect for art stick expression. after all these performers were up on stage, performing art even when they were speaking to the vice president elect. do you agree? >> sorry, ben, go ahead. >> it isn't my favorite thing. i would recommend that conservatives who look at president-elect trump doing this and saying it seems okay to me just imagine if the shoe were on the other foot and it was barack obama lecturing nascar fans if he got booed. on the other hand, you know, i would recommend that the media sort of take a second look at how much focus they put on things like this because the fact is if you're going to turn it up to 11 on a hamilton tweet this is going to be a long president for all of you. >> is that what you think happened on saturday and again today? we've turned it up to 11? >> yeah, i think the mainstream media has been at 11 since the election and i think that that

means that there is no place to turn it from there. this is sort of the problem in the 2016 election. i think there are a lot of aspersions cast to mitt romney and then when he came back in 2016 and cast the same aspersion at donald trump who was a different candidate people tuned it out. i really think that the media is in danger of blowing it's credibility if they're going to be so exuberant about covering every aspect of trump's foibles because there are going to be things he does that aren't good and you want people to pay attention to it. if you pay attention to a hamilton tweet as something more troubling, president-elect trump meeting with business partner from india while he is the president elect that seems something where you ought to put more focus. >> charles, do you agree? >> i think -- no, i think you have to just constantly call out everything. >> but doesn't that raise -- ben is saying raise the volume to 11 at all times. >> i am so personally offended by so much of what he does, you

know, you make a really strong point about, you know, artistic expression and allowing that to live and breathe and not try to put your thumb on the scale of that as the president of the united states. that's a real point. that is not a small thing, right? as a person who lives here in new york city, who goes to broadway, who has gone to see hamilton and it is not overrated it is actually a great show -- >> i do think donald trump needs to go and see hamilton. >> i think he needs to see it. >> but i think there is a real need for all of us to put constant pressure on this man to make him live up to the ideals of the presidency itself. and i am obviously an opinion journalist i'm not a straight news reporter and they have a different mission, a straight news reporter, but people like me there is a real -- the country needs us right now to put pressure on him because we have to make him be the

president. he is going to be president for four years and he has to conform to that in some way. he can't do things like this and not have it called out. it just can't happen. >> selena let me ask you do you buy that? one of the reasons you are here with us, one of cnn's newest contributors is you had a much better understanding of what was going on in voters' minds during the election season, you were speaking with voters in the rust belt on a daily basis. we need to hear much more from voices outside d.c. and new york and the corridor. let me ask you do you think folks out there outside the new york/d.c. bubble do believe they need journalists right now? do they believe in what we think here on cnn? >> and thank you for that nice introduction. but i do think that that's important and that was sort of missed in this election cycle. that they didn't think that people -- not just were talking to them, because plenty of reporters went into events in ohio and pennsylvania and

michigan, but being there and living there and listening to them, i think that was the most important component that we need to learn from this election is listening to everyone and i think this is a good start. >> well, they want to be heard, but do those voters, do ordinary voters who probably haven't seen "hamilton" do they care about journalists trying to stand up and hold the president elect accountable or does all of that come across at media bias? >> it's not just media bias. i think when you look at trump's most recent tweets it's not just really about media, but it's about pop culture and cultures perception of america outside of new york city. right? so they like that tension, i think that even though -- and back to your thing about standing up to trump. i think viewers and voters

always expect reporters even if they don't like what we do to challenge the status quo and to challenge power because our job is to bring them the news and have them understand what is happening. >> the challenge power indeed. selena, thank you for being here, charles, ben, please stick around. we will take a quick break on "reliable sources." when we come back we're talking about trump ditching the press pool, how accessible is he being with journalists? we have new information from the head of the white house correspondents association right after this quick break.

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rocky start. donald trump's relationship with the press as president elect is off to a rocky start. the what you say correspondents association issued a warning after he ditched the press pool to go out to dinner. they said it isn't acceptable for him to prafl without the pool. in another rebuke trump denied access to his meeting with the japanese prime minister later in the week. there was a photo taken, a handout photo which means it's basically a visual press release. most major news outlets worked together and agreed not to show the photo as a form of protest. that's why you didn't see it in the news coverage. these kinds of choices are made by news outlets in order to take a stand. we also heard from 15 different journalism advocacy groups this week all urging the president

elect to not only provide a press pool but also take other steps towards transparency. let's talk about this rocky start whether there is any reason to think it might get better. rejoining me here charles blow and ben shapiro and let me bring in ann compton former white house correspondent for abc news. you of course were on air force one, you were one of the pool reporters on 9/11, traveling with president george w. bush, informing the nation that he was safe and that he was moving about the country trying to return to washington. as we look at some of the video from that fateful day can you tell us, ann, in a nutshell why does the press pool matter? why should you and i and everyone watching care? >> you're absolutely right, there is a reason why for the last half century or more every president, republican and democrat, have welcomed the presence of a travel pool, a rotating group of print reporters, broadcast journalists and photographers, a small group which can cover him in more intimate settings and pool that

information with the rest of the white house press corps. on that morning of september 11th, 2001, when a crisis struck, the reporters who were in the room to assure the rest of the nation that the president was safe, that the president was acting. it's the same reason why the president has to be president wherever he is. whether it's a restaurant or a school room or air force one. that's why he also has a military doctor and a communications van full of equipment where he can reach out and be president wherever he is. >> i don't care what kind of steak he orders but i do care that he's safe. ann, you say this is actually the least of the media's problems with regard to a trump presidency. >> absolutely. the press pool is important and every president has used one, but the biggest question goes back to what you just talked about with a photo op with the president with the prime minister from japan. access to the president has to be in person by the reporters covering the white house

covering the president or president elect where he is. in advance the trump organization was told that if they just handed out a photo taken by the trump staff or by the japanese that the american media won't use it. if it's an event which should be open to press coverage then the media is not going to use the photographs any more than they would take a written printout of the president or president elect and simply read it on the air. that's a handout, that's not news coverage. >> i was asking the head of the white house correspondents association jeff mason for an update this morning. we can put on screen what he said to me. >> so, ben, we have seen some access this weekend, president-elect donald trump greeting visitors to his golf resort. do you think this is a positive sign, something we should actually be acknowledging and

thanking him for? or this is the kind of bare minimum, the bare minimum acceptable standard for access to the president? >> well, look, i think the expectation that he's going to make himself available to the press is a good one and i hope that he does do that, especially after he becomes president, i think there may be some different standards for president elect than president, but ann would know that better than i would. beyond that, you know, the fact is that the press access for the last eight years has been terrible and many members of the press have complained about this. the white house was releasing its own photos and tapes of events and not allowing the press to cover it in the way that the press wanted to cover it for years, the doj was targeting people at the ap. there has been a lot of problems between the white house and the press long predating donald trump, that's not an excuse for trump to do the right thing but it is worth putting it in context. >> how bad was it in the obama administration versus the bush or clinton administration? >> well, i don't think president obama has a perfect record on this. very often in meetings that he holds within the white house

conducting the office of president the white house will offer us a still photograph or put their own video on the whitehouse.gov website. the kind of meetings which traditionally with his predecessors a press pool would always come in and get some video in person watching the president rather than being handed material. that's the new media age. we've given the tools of journalism including twitter to the presidents and to the candidates. >> speaking of twitter we heard from the president as i mentioned earlier this morning on talking about "snl," saying "snl" was unfunny. charles, he also said that maybe there should be equal time for us. that could mean a lot of things. i interpreted his words of equal time to of he ever to the fcc rules mandating equal time. remember when trump was on "snl," he hosted last year. nbc stations have to offer his gop rifles equal time. they had to offer them basically free commercials in order to make up for the fact that trump hosted "snl."

the rules are only in effect during the election not in effect the rest of the time. what do you make of his reference to equal time? is he willfully miss understandings what it means? >> of course he is. he doesn't -- he doesn't get that. also it's twitter, right, so you can be -- i don't know what time it is, often he tweets in the middle of the night, he might have gotten up in the middle of the night to us auto the bathroom and tweets. i don't know. i take that it's twitter, you could make a mistake on twitter. the bigger question that i think all of us need to ask a whether or not he's really ready to be president of the united states in the sense of is he really open to this 24/7 public scrutiny and work. >> and the press pool relates to thaz al. >> the press pool relates to that. the idea that you will be under scrutiny all the time. that you will have to live in the fishbowl. i'm not sure that that is part -- that he wanted that part of it. he definitely wanted to win and he won. but what comes along with that

is the scrutiny, what comes along with that is always being around. i had read reports of him saying that he might even want to come back to new york to trump towers on the weekends. >> right. >> you have to commit to the job. this is not -- this is not a part-time job. >> so, ann, what do you recommend? as a veteran jurmist what do you recommend journalists do to hold trump to the same standards past presidents have been held to? >> we keep talking about it, we keep putting the news on the air and to the presidential staff and the presidential transition staff make the point that this is a two-way street. that the president works for the american people and that kind of transparen transparency, the kind of accessibility to get his views across to the american people so that they understand and understand why it is he's doing what he did, we keep doing our job every single day 24/7. >> we're talking about outsiders, the press pool with outsiders that track the president but i'm also seeing

media insiders in a trump presidency. let me put on the screen a examples of this. joe scarborough has been giving trump advice, we saw michael wolf visiting steen bannon earlier this week, jeanine pirro visiting trump tower, pierce morgan on the phone, mike huckabee of fox for a meeting and we know sean hannity and trump have a long-term relationship. that was trump's favorite show to go on during the primaries and general election. ben, what do you make of this list? is it surprising at all that the select trump will have these favored journalists? i will add one more, fox host eric bowling in contention for a commerce department job according to "politico." >> how about the fact that steve bannon who is the former ceo of breitbart is the chief strategist for the white house. there is a cozy relationship between trump and some members of the right wing media, again, not unprecedented. president obama drew staffers from the left wing media as well i think for people to take that out of context is a little bit

foolish, but obviously -- >> you would say left wing media, i wouldn't call "time magazine" left wing but jeff carney did come over from time. >> some of us would. the bottom line is that the reality is i think that some of the issues that we've been discussing there will be a bit of a disconnect between the media and the rest of the united states because the way the people read media stories they read them with good guys and bad guys, when you have trump attacking "hamilton" or "snl," people go, okay, someone attacked "snl," who cares. swb attacked "hamilton" do i care about that? a lot of folks in the media and people who watch the presidency we say this is not a great thing when he's attacking private citizens. again, if president obama had done the same thing and he did do the same thing many times we complained about it loudly there is a likelihood that a lot of people will say this is not a big deal, why should we focus on a broadway show and a spat

between the president elect of the united states and actors. >> easy to dismiss it and move on i suppose. >> ann, charles, ben, thank you very much all for being here. coming up next, fake news, something we've talked about a lot in recent weeks and recent months. it seems to be becoming a partisan issue. regardless of your politics there's one casualty that affects all of us and i will explain when we come back. i work 'round the clock. i want my blood sugar to stay in control. so i asked about tresiba®. ♪ tresiba® ready ♪

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welcome back to "reliable sources." i'm brian stelter. i've been thinking a lot about confusion and who it helps. fake news websites set out to confuse people, but they are owe only one symptom of a bigger broader disease, a break down in trust, a break down in a shared set of facts. this had been happening well before donald trump entered the presidential race but it is now accelerating. we are entering a terrible new age of information warfare and

it brings to mind that old adage the first casualty of war is the truth. this war so to speak is playing out right on your smartphone, right on your facebook news feed where made up stories spread to millions of people. here are a few recent examples. the pope endorsing trump, fake. megyn kelly fired for becoming hillary clinton, fake. clinton committed -- clinton linked to crimes committed by anthony weiner also fake but that one was treated by retired general michael flynn, trump's pick for national security as visor. this is the bs that facebook and twitter and google have to grapple with, but we have to grapple with it ourselves individually. no he is stories are pretty easily disproven, they are the most basic form of fake news. when i say fake news i mean stories designed to trick people into believing lies, deception 101. now, i have a hard time believing any creator of any fake news website but one of them paul horner spoke with the

"washington post" this week and look at what he said, quote, i think trump is in the white house because of me. his campaign manager posted my story about a protesting getting paid $3500 as fact. i made that up. horner went on to say i thought they would fact check it and would make them look worse but trump supporters they just keep running with it. they never fact check anything. now, to be clear, fake news affects the left and the right. i've seen clinton supporters sharing fake links with election related conspiracy theories but the evidence indicates this is more of a problem on the right, among some, not all, but some trump supporters. further research is needed to understand why online lies are so appealing to some voters. but i would suggest to you that it starts at the top. after all, trump himself frequently misled voters during his campaign and he has been personally fooled by fictional stories. remember when he said all i know is what's on the internet? this was in march.

after a protester rushed the stage at one of his rallies, the secret service intervened but trump asserted the protester had ties to isis. watch how chuck todd tried to correct him. >> you praised the secret service but then you said the man had ties to isis, that turned out to be a hoax. did you go over the top there on that? >> no. no. no. no. he was -- he was -- if you look on the internet, if you look at clips -- >> turned out to be a hoax. >> somebody made that up. >> he had talk -- well, i don't know what they made up. supposedly there was chatter about isis. now, i don't know. what do i know about it? all i know is what's on the internet. >> now, the contrast between the next president and the sitting president could not be more extreme. president obama is deeply concerned about people believing everything they read on the internet. >> if we are not serious about

facts and what's true and what's n not, and particularly in an age of social media where so many people are getting their information in sound bites and snippets off their phones, if we can't discriminate between serious arguments and propaganda, then we have problems. >> we do have problems. i think everybody feels it right now. one of the problems is that fake news websites are so easy to set up and so profitable for the creators. every time we click and share they make more money but we are worse off. so facebook and google are now trying to choke off the ads that show up on these sites, trying to make them less profitable, but that is a losing battle. these fake news sites are always going to exist. in fact, they're probably going to get better at blending in and

looking real. the same goes for hyper partisan blogs and facebook pages that only tell people what they want to hear. that celebrate their side and demonize the other side. on this program we used to talk about red news blue news but we are now way beyond red news and blue news. we are in an environment where some people are choosing to be color-blind. media literacy is part of the solution here. as a society we need to help each other distinguish between reliable and bogus stories. the more media literal you are the less likely you will be tricked by propaganda and that's what it is, propaganda. journalism is also a big part of the solution, as an industry we have to redouble our efforts to restore our credibility. to tell you the truth these are not satisfying or complete answers to the problem. i don't have complete answers. i know a lot of us are going to be gathering around thanksgiving tables in a few days unable to

see eye to eye about basic facts. in this age of information warfare every person can just pull out their smartphone and pull up a story that tells them they are right and their loved one is wrong. how does this end? with no one trusting anything? there's more fact checking than ever, but fewer people trusting the facts. are we moving more into an authoritarian media climate, more like russia or china? i don't know. i feel so empty and frankly so pessimistic about this. but i know that people in power all around the world benefit from confusion. they benefit from this confusion. so we must be vigilant as journalists and as facebook users and as family members at thanksgiving. refuse to be confused. now, that's all for that he is say this week. i have to tell you, i don't have

the answers as i said but i'm trying to figure it out and i appreciate your feedback. send me a tweet, send me a facebook message @brian stelter on both sites. will donald trump's son-in-law jared kushner put his news company into a blind trust if he takes a role? nd the holid. i made a list of everyone we need to get gifts for this year. but thanks to fingerhut.com, we can shop over 700,000 items from brands like samsung, kitchenaid and lego. all with low monthly payments. just click on over to fingerhut.com for the credit you deserve to get all kinds of great gifts. [ drums playing ] let's wrap this one last. ♪

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donald trump ran an anti-media campaign during the election year, but there's one media figure he's fond of his son-in-law jared kushner publisher of the new york observer newspaper, he has often been at trump's side during the campaign and during the transition according to the "new york times" kushner has spoken to a lawyer about the possibility of joining the new administration. it's a story made nor the headlines and the outcome is anyone's guest. what could it mean for kushner and for his newspaper? joining me now the editor in chief ken kirsen. so the observer ended its print editions, they will be online only, is that related to kushner's role owning the paper and possibly working with his

father-in-law? >> no, it has nothing to do with that. it has to do the fact that we've multiplied our digital readership by seven times at the same time our print and everyone else's is cratering. it's totally related to how people consume news. >> what about the ownership of the paper? if kushner is to join the administration in some form will he give up his ownership of the organization? do we have any sense of that? >> jared will behave ethically and appropriately as he always does. he has a law degree, he is a smart guy, he is not going to put his reputation or anything he owns in jeopardy. i'm not an expert on the laws about nepotism but i know they're pretty strict at least as far as the white house goes and if he takes an official position i'm sure he will put the proper amount of insulation. i will say that i've worked a lot of different places. despite all the attacks you see in the media jared has his finger on the scale of what the observer covers a lot less than just about any publisher i have worked for. >> you say he is not involved in the editorial.

>> he is not involved in the day to day at all. we talk every day and he is obsessed with politics as i am so i hear his opinions, but he does not -- we've run very tough -- >> there has been stories about kushner wanting certain articles written or not written. >> who wouldn't. everybody has opinions about what the media should cover and even editors he has had who have been, you know, less favorable than i am to his world view have said he's done a pretty good job of leaving them alone. we've run stories that have been tough on his father-in-law and unlike most places we have run stories that have been tough on his father-in-law's competitors. >> you all talk every day. i'm sure yus what you and kushner think about the coverage of the transition, the first almost two weeks of president-elect trump. what's your interpretation? >> i won't speak for jared but i will tell you that i think transitions are always times of enormous controlled chaos and it seems like it's going just about the way it has for the last couple of transitions. i've followed friction closely my entire journalism career and

there's always bumps in the road as names get floated and sometimes you float someone's name to see how the press and public will react. it seems like it's going on a pace. >> the headlines about infighting you don't buy it. >> i don't buy it. i think the obsession with how donald trump does everything including where he gets dinner is comic. >> you're against having a press pool to go to dinner with him? >> it's not against a press pool going i'm against it dominating a cycle for two news days if he decides not to have them go with him. a press pool should go why ever he allows them to go. this idea that you can't have a private meal why your family is ludicrous. >> journalists never sit at the table, they wait outside you know that. >> i do. >> you told me off camera you think the coverage of trump's campaign was a disgrace. >> yes. >> cute me why. >> i think it's been ridiculous and i am quite frankly shocked there haven't been resignations and firings. >> resignations and firings of

who? >> different journalists who have been wrong over and over and over and then they can continue to do their job after having been wrong about the election -- >> wrong about what? >> there is no consequences or accountability. wrong about not only what was happening, just about everybody missed that donald trump was going to win this election, but also wrong about why it was happening including inexplicably after brexit which was a test run for this election, it showed enormous amounts of discontent with the ordinary people who feel ignored in that case by london elites, in america by coastal cultural elites. hamilton is a good example. i'm ready to go on record and disagree strongly with trump. hamilton is amazing. the idea of cultural elite lecturing the vice president elect is what america is disgusted by. >> i would say we are a divided country and things like hamilton just show the divide really, really vividly, don't they? >> yeah, but -- >> you are the new york observer. >> but the play itself -- the

play hamilton, the musical itself is about the emergence of a two-party system, about being able to have differences of point of view, hopefully without shooting each other. >> hopefully without that. ken, good to see. >> you good to see you you. >> the point about soul searching or lack of is interesting. up next, what made bill o'reilly decide to publicly go after megyn kelly. two experts standing by. stay tuned. share the joy of real cream... ...with reddi-wip. there's nothing typical. about making movies. i'm victoria alonso and i'm an executive producer at marvel studios. we are very much hands on producers. if my office becomes a plane or an airport the surface pro is perfect, fast and portable but also light. you don't do 14 hours a day 7 days a week for decades if you don't feel it in your heart.

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. while out prompting her new book megyn kelly spoke publicly for the first time about alleged harassment by ex fox news boss roger ailes. >> not only with as there plejt mat professional advice but there were grossly inappropriate comments. there was specific comments about my body, how he wanted to see me and it grew more severe

over time. >> ailes has denied her allegations. kelly's candor did not sit well with bill o'reilly, he was out promoting his own book and when he was asked about kelly's allegations his demeanor quickly changed. >> i want to be to very candid here, i'm not that interested in this. >> no? >> no. >> in sexual harassment. >> i'm not interested in basically litigating something that is finished that makes me network look bad. okay? i'm not interested in making my network look bad at all. that doesn't interest me one bit. >> does that mean kelly is? in a stroke of luck for cbs megyn kelly was on the same show the next day and she said this. >> i am very proud of the fact that i discussed this with rupert and lock land murdoch before i wrote this chapter in my book. we were all on the same page

that this was an important chapter to include and i am proud of them that they feel as i do which is sunlight is the best disinfectant. >> you don't believe you're >> i believe that roger ailes made the company look bad. >> now the cold war between kevin and o'reilly is hot again. let's bring in sarah ellison who has written extensively on ailes and melissa mcguthrie. what is going on between kelly and o'reilly? >> megyn kelly has come out with her story and bill o'reilly is sort of shooshing her, saying you're unearthing this ugly chapter that everyone at fox wanted to get through. but the optics are really bad. here is bill o'reilly who had his own sexual harassment scandal, many scandals where he

had to settle with a former employee and so whether or not he is just defending the honor of fox news and wants this to be over. it's been okayed by his bosses and this is sort of extending the chapter for fox news but it actually the optics are pretty bad. >> do you get the sense that kelly wants to be out talking about this? she felt like she had to address it at some point because she spoke with investigators about the alleged harassment. >> what she told me is she didn't ask to be outed but once she was, she felt she had the responsibility to come forward and was working behind the scenes before she was outed to make sure other women knew that she was talking to investigators. so i do think that she did want to be an example for other women because she does have stature and power and visibility.

sarah is right. people who are criticizing her for talking about this are proving her point, that sexual harassment is a problem and that it needs to be talked about. it's still happening in 2016 and you can't push it under the rug anymore. >> o'reilly says this is over. it's not over. there's one pending lawsuit and gretchen carlson spoke on the tv. were there any takeaways? >> what grietchen was able to d, she's the hero who took the hit, came out and talked about this very aggressive case of sexual harassment and i think that the takeaway, though, unfortunately what i've learned from the gretchen carlson case, if you don't have tapes, you're going to have a lot of doubters and that's not exactly what i wanted to learn from it but that's what i did learn from it. >> have we seen that this week,

people doubting kelly's story? >> well, i think most of it is sort of the pushback and blowback. don't talk about that anymore. i think when gretchen first filed, there were a lot of doubters. >> true. and it became more clear that she had tapes of some sort. fox is still rolling along pretty strongly without him. isn't one of the takeaways that four or five months later, fox news has not missed a beat without roger ailes. >> well, that's true. they had an unprecedented election and megyn kelly has played a role in the election 2016. all of her history with donald trump, which was also detailed. >> and, of course, her deal is up with fox in seven or eight months. what is your sense whether she'll stay with fox or not? >> she said she wantdidn't want make the decision before the election. at this point, she talked about

it a lot publicly and i think maybe that was not entirely prudent and she's really keeping her cards close to the vest now. i don't know that the economic realities of tv news right now would give her a lot of options if she's really looking for that 20 million plus salary. >> other networks may not be willing to pay $20 million for anybody. >> exactly. >> sarah, what's your sense of the behind-the-scenes talks? >> in general, everybody would love to hire megyn kelly but they would love to hire her at the price that they can afford. what is interesting about this, fox news is always a little bit -- there's always infighting. it's always a tough crowd. but it's becoming less and less hospitable for her where you have somebody like o'reilly coming forward. his statement reflected some resentment of -- some larger resentment inside fox news about how much attention megyn is bringing to this issue. not the issue of sexual harassment but dredging up the entire ailes story.

>> and some of it is just envy but i think there's a question of where can she go and i know she received one other approach from a network after her book came out because they felt like there was some more vulnerability for her to stay at fox news. >> you're saying new interests? >> a little new interest. >> a tidbit right there. thank you so much. when we come back, remembering gwen ifill and the endelible mark she made on television. roller derby. ♪ now give up half of 'em. do i have to? this is a tough financial choice we could face when we retire. but, if we start saving even just 1% more of our annual income... we could keep doing all the things we love. prudential. bring your challenges.

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gwen ifill, journalism for so many, passed away this week. so for today, she has the last word. >> as long as i remember there's someone on the other side of the piece of equipment, the camera, watching me with expectation and it can shape what they do next, i have to take what i do seriously every single day.

>> i don't believe in objectivity. >> read, read, read, and write, write, write. the key is to always have one more question in your back pocket. if you run out of questions, then maybe you have the story but you should always be searching for more. secretary of state mitt romney? >> look forward to becoming part of the administration. >> trump reaches out to a bitter rival. >> mitt romney let us down. he failed. he choked. >> after a week of naming hard liners to the post, what kind of people will we again in reince priebus is here. plus -- broadway boos. mike pence's night on the town ends with a plea from