failu failure. 81 people on the flight. almost all of them are members of the soccer team and traveling media among them. access to the site, it happened near medellin in access isn't easy. when we get details, we'll bring them to you. let's begin with rosa flores, live in columbus, with the latest on the campus stabbing. >> reporter: chris, good morning. law enforcement not ruling out terrorism, but they haven't established a motive just yet. they are interviewing witnesses, talking to family, and scouring through surveillance video, some of that video taken here at university before that attack. perhaps the biggest clue is coming from a facebook message posted around the time of the attack. ohio state university police naming student abdul razak ali

artan as the attacker. a u.s. official telling cnn artan was a legal permanent resident originally from somalia who came to the u.s. via pakistan. authorities now look into posts he made on his facebook page, expressing grievances about crimes against muslims, posted moments before the attack, saying, quote, i'm sick and tired of seeing my fellow muslim brothers and sisters being killed and tortured, and uh can't take it anymore. back in august, osu's campus newspaper quoted artan in a profile, saying he was scared to pray in the open as a muslim. investigators are looking into possible motives for the attack and say they cannot rule out terrorism. >> we're always aware that's a potential. we're going to continue to look at that. >> reporter: police say just before 10:00 a.m. monday morning, artan deliberately jumped a curb, ramming a car into a group of pedestrians. >> he exits the vehicle and used

a butcher knife to start cutting pedestrians. >> reporter: eyewitnesses desperately calling 911. >> a guy ran a car through a crowd of students. he did it purposely. >> i'm at ohio state right outside. a guy crashed his car into a bunch of people. >> reporter: a minute into the attack, osu police officer alan horujko arrived on the scene, confronting a knife-wielding artan, shooting him three times, killing him. >> the officer engaged the suspect and fired shots and used deadly force to stop the threat. >> reporter: 11 people wounded in the attack, all are expected to survive. as the attack unfolded, students barricaded doorways to avoid becoming a victim. the campus on lock dayne for an hour and a half. >> ohio state will be stronger, having come through this. >> reporter: now, classes resume today here. students still shaken up, attending a vigil late

yesterday. as for the somali community, i've been in contact with both community leaders here and in minnesota as well. they tell me, chris, they're very worried about possible retaliation against that community. >> rosa, thank you very much. so the obvious question is whether or not this was a terror attack. let's discuss with cnn counterterrorism analyst phil mudd and tom fuentes. gentlemen, thank you for being with us. phil, you say that common sense isn't always the best guide. you look at a situation like this, somali born u.s. resident. he's got the facebook post that shows some sympathies to the absurd absurd, to hateful, terroristic type rhetoric. you say don't jump to conclusions. >> i often find you have mixed motivations. this was an 18-year-old. he had just transferred schools. we don't understand the issues he had immigrating.

one of the difficulties is looking at what he's claiming and comparing it to the rest of his life, saying is that the only thing that motivated him. last thing, chris. you have a singleton, you don't have communications, e-mail, text with somebody else. understanding what's going in his mind without any trail that will allow you to get into that mind set is pretty difficult. >> so you're saying singleton as a trade term of a one-off a loner. so tom, where's the line for you? again, when people look at this and see what he was writing about and what he did and where he's from, and they say he's a terrorist. >> well, right now, chris, we're going by the one posting that he did on facebook right before the attack. i would like to see more r of the communications, what other websites was he searching when they examined his computers, his phone records, who else was he in contact with, talks with class mates to see who he may have been discussing these grievances with and expressing a desire possibly to commit a

terrorist act or just that had he grievances and was deranged in not being able to cope with the stresses of his college career. >> there had been something written about tit, right. he said he was worried about praying on campus, there was a fear of intimidation. i wanted to pray in the open, but i was scared with everything going on in the media. i'm a muslim. what does this mean to you, phil? >> not much yet. look at this. if you're going to think of this person as a well-considered, trained terrorist who was motivated through the course of months or years because he was frustrated about integration. looks at facebook postings, buys himself a truck, a couple weapons, finds a mace where people are gathering. ohio state and michigan on saturday. instead, you have an impulse

act. gets a knife, a small car. something inside that one person's brain led him to do this. >> why do i care in terms of the subtlety of your analysis as opposed to saying isis just put out some bs briefing about how to use a knife to attack the nonbelievers? this kid picked up on it, had hate in his heart. he's a terrorist, period. why have this sophisticated analysis? >> i don't understand it either. maybe there's something we can learn. does he have a pattern of activity looking at websites? let me take you inside the room when i was at the agency or the bureau. we don't care when we're doing these case inside the room. it's the american public in this polarized political atmosphere where people say you have to call them a terrorist or not. those of us investigating, why would i care? he killed people. my first question is who. are there other people involved or co-conspirators? this stuff about motivations is

interesting. >> r tom, it does seem to fall in line with what isis had been trying to motivate in the u.s., which is we don't want to have to plan these things for you. just remember, go out there and kill infidels any way that you can so that we're seeing more lone wolves that don't have the more ordinary chain of communication in their planning. >> no, that's true. that is something they've been putting out now for over two years of, you know, use your car, use a knife, use a hammer, whatever you have at your disposal, if you don't have a firearm or do not know how to construct an explosive device. i would agree with phil. let's get a little more information. we should have it pretty soon when we get the feedback what's about on his computer and who he's been talking to and how this grievance came about. i think what phil said about football game is important. if this was a planned, is

isis-driven or terrorist inspired act, you have 100,000 people attending a football game two days before the attack. why not do it then? similar to san bernardino. they attack 40 people at a luncheon when they could have attacked peep at rose parade and rose bowl game a matter of a week or two earlier. it sounds more hike an impulsive act that just occurred to him that morning to go ahead and do that. >> all right. gentlemen, thank you very much for helping us understand what is almost impossible to understand for someone thinking normally. alisyn? >> we do have breaking news to get to now. 76 people killed after a charter plane carrying a brazilian soccer team crashes on its way from bolivia to colombia. miraculously, rescuers have pulled five survivors from the crash site. here is video. this is the chapecoense soccer team. they just posted this on their facebook page four days ago. you can see them celebrating a

win, continuing their cinderella run to the final of a press attention to south american tournament. the team now boarding the plane, on their way to that final game. this is the video of them at the airport. the pilot declared an emergency, reporting an electrical failure. they say moments later, the aircraft went down 22 miles from the airport in the city of medellin. authorities say a crew member and two athletes are among the survivors. >> that is a tricky name. i have a soccer player in the family. so the chapecoense team, they are well known there. they've become kind of local heroes. so to have the whole team -- you know, we did hear there are a couple survivors. again, this information is raw. this happened overnight. this is a tough area to access. certain things may change. but to lose a huge group like that is going to be hard for that community. >> oh, it's heartbreaking. also the idea that people survived that when you look at the aftermath.

there are five survivors this morning. so we need to get a lot more details about what happened there. let's turn to the trump transition. president-elect donald trump meeting with mitt romney tonight for dinner. the question is why. members of the transitionvaging. we're told there is progress in this relationship and there may with pick announcements coming. trump has decided on a vocal critic of obamacare to be the next secretary of health and human services. with the latest, cnn's sarah murray live in washington. what do we know? >> reporter: good morning, chris. it's going to be a double whammy on health care announcements this morning, an indication donald trump is moving ahead. we're expecting him to name tom price as hhs secretary but also seema verma is going to be donald trump's pick as administrator for the center of medicare and medicaid services. even though he's moving forward

on some of these announcements, still wrinkles when it comes to other big ones, like secretary of state. donald trump is barrelling ahead with another round of cabinet picks today. sources say he's slated to name georgia congressman tom price, a fierce critic of obamacare, to lead the department of health and human services. >> the most important thing that the american people understand and appreciate is that it's destructive to their health care. >> reporter: and after this teaser from vice president-elect mike pence monday evening -- >> a number of very important announcements tomorrow. >> reporter: more announcements could be in the pipeline today. but on one of the thornest issues, who will fill the coveted position of secretary of state, it appears trump is still pondering his options. the president-elect is slated to dine with mitt romney tonight, a sign he's still in the running for the job, in spite of the protest of some of trump's top aides. >> the number of people who feel betrayed to think that a governor romney would get the

most prominent cabinet post after he went so far out of his way to hurt donald trump. >> reporter: adding to the intrigue, trump plans to sit down with another candidate for the role of the nation's top diplomat today, senate foreign relations committee chairman bob co corker. after meeting with david petraeus on monday, trump tweeted he was very impressed. >> very good conversation. we'll see where it goes from here. >> reporter: but petraeus, who's in the running for a variety of national security and defense slots, could be a problematic pick. while trump b continually attacked hillary clinton on the campaign trail for her handling of classified information -- >> she deleted the e-mails. she has to go to jail. >> reporter: petraeus comes with his own baggage. he stepped down in 2012 as cia director amid fallout from an extramarital affair and was convicted of a misdemeanor for sharing classified information with his mistress. he's currently on probation in that case.

now in a latest chapter of donald trump is not going to change just because he's the president-elect, he spent last night going after journalists. this time it was cnn's own jeff zeleny, who was reporting on the fact there's really no evidence to back up trump's claim that there was millions of people who have voted illegally. chris and alisyn, it's worth noting that donald trump's on transition officials could not cite evidence back up this claim. >> neither can scores of secretaries of state across the country. we'll be talking about this more in the program. thank you for that. , it's hard to justify because it's a lie. there weren't millions of people who voted illegally. they're citing bogus studies. this is hopefully part of the learning curve. you screw up, move on. they're in the double down business there, and it's going to hurt over time. up next, more on the trump transition and the decision we expect to see today. and of course, donald trump

facing pushback from both sides of the aisle over those claims that millions of people voted illegally. that's next. fast and portable but also light. you don't do this 14 hours a day, 7 days a week... ...if you don't feel it in your heart.

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president-elect donald trump continuing his false chams about

millions of illegal votes in this presidential election. well, now democrats and republicans are rebuking these unprecedented commentingss from incoming president. we have "washington post" reporter abby philip, cnn political commentator errol lewis, and cnn contributor also with the washington examiner and "new york post," se llena zito. great to have you here at cnn with us and here on "new day." for our viewers, everybody should know that you are the reporter who coined the now-famous expression that trump's supporters took him seriously and not literally by the media took him literally but not seriously. do you think we're all trying to figure out in terms of his claim that there were millions of people who voted illegally is an example of that? >> exactly.

he does not use words in the same we're used to. they massage them, politicians do, but reporters, we make sure everything is great, use our ap stylebook, fact check everything. and he does not use words the way that we do. and the other thing is we have to look at it through viewers' eyes. viewers are also the same way. they don't use words the way politicians do. they're also sort of tired of these perfectly massaged messages that they know went through like a factory of people and mind so that when it's delivered with a smile, it creates this great moment for politician. that's part of his appeal. >> absolutely. >> and he is the author of his own style and entitled to his own messaging. no question about that. but he's not entitled to his own facts. what we're dealing with here, errol, is fact. the only way this is not a lie,

what he's saying, because test certainly a lie to say millions voted illegally in this country. the only way it's not a lie for trump is if he's relying on somebody else that he decides to believe. even if it's a conspiracy theorist. but there's just nothing to this idea. so you're seeing republicans and democrats running away from this and saying it's not true. he's got to move on. this didn't happen. it couldn't be more cheer. >> that's right. the top layer of this cake that you've described is he does it so often that at some point you have to decide either we're not going to report on the latest lie, the complete fabrication that has no basis in any fact, not even anything that was told to him, so it's not even in good faith. we have to report on it over and over and over again or just ignore. >> dangerous to ignore. >> well, ignoring -- or down play it, which is something of an option. there were stories that ronald reagan told that were clearly

untrue. he had all kinds of fables about welfare queens. he wants to say he hates the welfare system. he's not making any specific claim that anybody's ever going to be able to track down, and it's a west of time to pretend otherwise. i think we're reaching that point with some of these trump claims. he'll make up something every day if we're going to chase that rabbit into the field. it might be better to say, look, once again, he has said something that's not true. now we have a big government we have to put together and a big nation to take care of. let's focus on the policy. >> this is exactly the change for journalists. how much time are we going to devote to chasing every one of these. we go back and fact check. i can read all the different statements where they've said, nope, no voter fraud, we've checked, double checked. we could do that and spend days doing that. or we could just dismiss it, as selena says, as this is how he speaks and move on.

>> i think it's important to actually fact check. we have to continue to do that. there needs to be some source of correct information out there. but r to selena's point, we need to understand that trump is trying to create a sentiment with his words. he's using his words to make his supporters feel something, to make them feel like he's a winner, like they're winners as well. it's part of his whole ethos as a candidate, to exaggerate, make things up, anticipate ud use th create a sense around his candidacy. i think it still behooves us to point that out. >> when i look at covering politics, so much of it is bs. we can talk about the bs surrounding romney. this is the worst case of s subterfuge. i don't know what's going on except for this.

there's zero chance kellyanne conway took to the airways to say something trump didn't want said. >> she has his ear. those two are really tight. and he has listened to her in the past. that's how politicians get their mess an communicated when they're sort of hunkered down. they send their people out there and get their mess an across. >> so errol, why is mitt romney going back today to meet with donald trump after he's taken this public tongue lashing or denigration or whatever you want to call it from not only kellyanne conway but newt gingrich, another trump supporter. >> all of them. chris collins yesterday. almost made my hair move, the wind coming out of him. >> so what is -- why is mitt romney taking this? >> first of all, lest not rule out a pretty good meal. manhattan is lovely. rve

you never know. i do think seriously there's a possible role for him. i don't think it's crazy to imagine a role in which surrounded by national security advisers and of course the president-elect himself, who have made all kinds of really disparaging anti-muslim statements that could dislodge foreign policy and make it really, really difficult, to have somebody who comes from a different place, from a different space, who can walk in and do something. i think it's conceivable that he could fit into even this administration. >> you think he's still being considered for secretary of state, as we sit here today? >> i don't see any reason to think otherwise. >> i think the debate is very much real within trump's mind and within his campaign. there are some people, and i think trump may be among them, who values loyalty, but they also value what romney brings, which is stability to foreign policy. that's probably the most important place you can have that. >> panel, thank you very much. great to talk to all of you. >> we'll get more insight into this. we'll have jason miller on the show, the communications director for trump's transition team. so raging wildfires in

tennessee forcing evacuation of a popular tourist area that's home to the dollywood theme park. we'll take you there live next.

we're following break news. there's some terrifying wildfires fueled by a punishing drought and ferocious winds, scorch resort towns in tennessee. hundreds are being forced to evacuate. we have someone at scene. cnn meteorologist jennifer gray r live in gatlinburg with more. where is this in terms of the cross hairs of concern? >> reporter: it's still a major concern, chris. there's still active wildfires going on now, despite the rainfall, which started falling late yesterday. unfortunately, not soon enough though to save portions of this historic and tourist-driven city. we're here at this evacuation center where about 1300 people have checked in. this happened so fast. they had to leave their homes with what was on their back, not enough time to save much of anything, not knowing what will be there when they return.

wildfires threatening popular resort towns in east tennessee. >> if you're a person of praise, we could use your prayers. >> reporter: at least 14 fires near the smokey mountains national park forcing mass evacuations. >> we packed our valuables, readyre ready to go if we need to. >> reporter: at one point, 30 buildings engulfed in the fires, including r the 16-story hilton hotel. this amateur video posted on social media shows the raging fires just outside the hotel's windows. guests anxiously watching from inside. the fire now at edge of the dollywood theme park. the park not yet damaged but portion of the resort evacuated. >> we have multiple trees now falling with embers starting additional fires throughout the area. >> reporter: wind gusts topping 70 miles per hour, combined with the worst drought in the region in nearly a decade, fanning the flames. >> we're dealing with the worst possible conditions imaginable.

>> reporter: and those pictures are just terrifying. the national guard has been -- is out here now. there ares a hundreds of first responders from this area and the surrounding areas that have come to help out. once the sun comes up, they'll assess the damage. as of right now, no word on when people will be able to return to their homes. >> okay, jennifer. please keep us updayligted from there. thank you. well, the situation in aleppo, syria, is disastrous. the syrian government's attacks triggering mass exodus of civilians. we're live with the latest next. walked around the shelter,

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aleppo, syria, is an active war zone. residents have little water, food, medical care, and they are facing intense bombing from the regime and its allies, including russia. people are literally running for their lives. lest bring in our cnn senior international correspondent clarissa ward and nic peyton

walsh. we seem to have difficulty communicating the urgency and hardship of the people trying to live in aleppo. what do we know right now? >> well, the situation now is truly at a breaking point, i would say, chris. essentially four years ago the rebels took about half of aleppo, the southeasteeastern p city. once the russians joined in on behalf of the assad regime, we saw a real uptick in the amount of bombardment hitting those rebel air whys. eventually, they were able to fully encircle the area of eastern aleppo. what we've seen is the regime forces backed by iran, backed by russia, backed by shiami my lil from iraq and afghanistan, have taken roughly one-third of the

rebels' parts of the city. what they appear to be doing now is cleave in half, if you will, the remaining area. thousands and thousands of air strikes, no food getting in, no water getting in, and for many people trapped in these areas, chris, nowhere to run to because they're simply not willing to try to leave and go into a government-held area where they fear they could simply disappear forever, chris. >> nic, some of the regime leaflets that they're dropping on people there, if you do not leave these areas, you will be annihilated. you know everyone has given up on you. they left you alone to face your doom and nobody will give you any help. what is the impact of this mess an? how deep does it go with the people there, that they feel abandoned? >> they've long felt abandoned by the western community, who

they see have singularly failed to stop the bombardment of the assad regime. this is an besieged for months. we're seeing a nasty end game of this part of the city. the major urban stronghold of the rebels. if they lose it, it's a huge setback, frankly, for the motion there could be some sort of moderate syrian revolution here. the regime will use it as an enormous feter in their cap. it'll make it very hard for those who want to see a political solution to move forward. this is frankly the assad regime saying they can impose a milita military victory here. chris, also, this is a key test for president-elect donald trump. he has to sit now potentially and watch a humanitarian crisis unfold there. a lot of it backed by a country he'd like to see a better relationship with, russia, with iran assisting them too.

that's not a curreountry he necessarily wants better relations with. are we going to hear from the president-elect strong condemnation of surge into this area, where there could be 200,000 people facing the wrath of these regime-loyal militia, or will we see a change in washington's view. >> and clarissa, there's a st strategic component here for the united states. where there's a lack of opportunity, what takes root, extremism. there's a twitter account that really hits on this. she's a 7-year-old. she tweets about hief in aleppo with her mom. her mom left a series of distressing tweets in the last 4 hours. the last one says, last message, under heavy bombardments. when we die, keep talking for the 200,000 still inside.

how many people are there in this situation? where can they go? >> well, i think this is something that people often forget or perhaps don't understand. when we look at isis, when we look at extremism, when we look at al qaeda, we see it as a cause. when in fact, it's actually a symptom, chris. the cause itself is the syrian civil war r. specifically, it is the oppression and slaughter of a sunni majority by a minority. as long as you have the continuation of that oppression, of that slaughter of a sunni muslim majority, you're going to see across the world sunni muslims everywhere, growing sympathies for these extremist groups because basically these extremist groups revel in a situation like aleppo. the message the people take away is the international community doesn't care about you, international law can't help

you, democracy is of no use. we're the only people who can help you. god is the only thing that can help you. and it's a very powerful message, chris, for these people who are literally on their knees. by the way, that is one of the mottos of the assad regime. kneel or starve. it has been a very effective policy for them. it is a very effective recruitment policy as well for isis. >> unfortunately right now there's a lot of truth to it. you have people who are forgotten, starving, and they are desperate for reason to believe that they can have a future. clarissa, nici, thank you for helping us understand this situation a little better. alisyn? on a much lighter note, the pack is back, at least for one night. green bay keeps hope alive for their season on monday night football. we have details in this morning's bleacher report. that's next. make sure the germs they bring home don't stick around. use clorox disinfecting products.

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r. severe storms are packing torrential rains and damaging

winds. they'll soak the eastern u.s. today, we're told. let's check in with cnn meteorologist chad myers. >> we'll take the rain over the fire areas there around gatlinburg and such. the rain will come into the northeast, maybe slowing the planes down, but the rain is beneficial. this rain is right where we need it, right over this tremendous drought over the southeast. gatlinburg didn't get the rain they wanted, but more is on the way. with that rain will be severe weather. we had tornadoes yesterday. there will be tornadoes today. there's the future radar. here's where the tornadoes will be today. anywhere from southeast of memphis all the way down to the gulf coast. we'll likely see another inch or two of rain in these air whys that need the rain so much. let me just show you this map. this is a map of where the wildfires are and where the rain hit last night. we need much more. that wildfire had gatlinburg is still going on in the mountains. structures don't go out with rain. we can wet down the leaves a little bit, but we need more rain here for sure.

chris? >> chad, thank you very much. keep us on top of it. >>. >> so monday night football was worth it. you got to see the resurgence of aaron rodgers and his so-called mystery tint on the sidelines. hines ward has more. i don't remember you going into any tent, just laying people out with madness. >> no, we didn't have a tent back in my day, chris. it's been an off year for aaron rodgers and the packers. their mplayoff hopes have been fade, and rodgers haven't been himself. last night against the eagles, rodgers was in vintage form. second quart e watch the packers r quarterback thread the needle to adams for the touchdown. big-time throw and catch. later in the game, rodgers scrambling around. he goes down awkwardly and tweaks his hamstring. on the sideline, he goes into this mystery tent. apparently it's used for trainers to look at injuries in privacy and also for bathroom breaks or maybe even ice fishing. you learn something new every day. the packers would go on to win

27-13. to the nba. the warriors hosting the hawks. steph curry showing off his ski skills. nothing but net. warriors win their 12th straight, 105-100. alisyn, that's tied for the third longest streak in franchise history. back to you guys. >> i knew that. thanks so much. >> no problem. back to politics. president-elect donald trump blaming voter fraud and illegal voting for losing the popular vote. but where's his proof? well, there isn't any. so how dangerous is his cham? we debate all of this next. diabetes can be a daily struggle,

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president-elect donald trump continuing his false claims that millions of people voted illegally, costing him the popular vote. mr. trump fueling the fake news movement while attacking mainstream media outlets like cnn. let's discuss all of this. we want to bring this our panel. we have cnn media analyst, bill carter, and joining us again, our new contributor, selena zito. great to have all of you.

frank, this is a debate that's under way in newsrooms around the country, certainly here at cnn. how much time and energy and space should we be devoting to the demonstrably false claims that the president-elect makes about, let's say, people voting illegally, or are we to sort of quickly dismiss those and move on to what people say they care about, his future policies and conflicts of interest? >> it's a balance and you've got to do both, obviously. you've got to pay attention to the fake claims and the fake news, to debunk them, to expose them, to show that the president-elect, soon to be the president, is speaking from an anti-fact perspective. however, if cnn and talk radio and talk television become obsessed by this and become driven by this because it's easy to drive the panel discussions minute after minute, hour after hour, and don't pay attention to the things that do matter a lot, then real people, real issues

get buried. and that is going to be the challenge because you, cnn, and others are playing on a completely different playing field now, where the rules have either been suspended or ripped up entirely. >> frank wrote a good piece about this. it's online if you want to go on cnn.com. it's called the four things he believes the media should be doing right now in covering trump. we're doing it with our own vernacular. it's called bull shit. >> good morning, everyone. >> we're talking around truth much too often. that's what fake news it. there's no fact free. there's only lies. we're creating a vocabulary here it accommodate one new thrust. now, where does it go for you? journalism? if you start calling something fact free and call ratism alt-right, you're putting yourself in a box it start. >> you are. i think you have to start to really be straight forward and

say this untrue, here's what's really going on. i don't think you can back off at all. you have to be completely aggressive. you can't say he's distracting from the news. if this goes on -- and why will it change? it went on in the campaign. >> it will only grow. because it works. >> yes, it's extremely effective. when someone challenges this particular r individual, his reaction is to try to bully them and go after someone like jeff zeleny personally and try to bully the whole cnn apparatus, challenging them. that's his m.o. because it has worked, and it will continue to be that way unless he's continually challenged. he's obviously disturbed by the fact he's a minority president. it's driving him batty. and he's saying kind of outrageous things because of that. that isn't going to change. he's always going to be a minority president, and his popularity is probably never going to get mparticularly high. >> and to be clear, by minority president, you mean he got less

of the popular vote. double meaning. selena, you're the reporter who had her finger on the pulse of what trump supporters believed and wanted from their president and why they were so enthusiastic about him. what do they think? basically, they think that mainstream media is lying and that the fake -- well, you tell me. what do they think about claims he makes that are sometimes outrageous? >> first of all, there's two different things between fake news and his hyperbole. fake news is an american tradition. we've always had these little fake news stories that have been dropped in throughout our history, going all the way back to john adams. >> aren't they more ubiquitous now? now that they're taking seed, they're being picked up places where people don't know anymore how to distinguish fake news. >> that's true. the information is obviously so much more at hand than it was in the 18th century. still, we had them. we had fake news r outlets, newspapers, where there was all kinds of propaganda in them. having said that, when he does a

tweeted that is patently false, i think our job is to obviously call him on it. but i also think if we focus too much on it, we're going to lose the people that, the readers, the voters, the populists. there has to be that trust between the populists and the media. we've absolutely lost them. ic it's really important that the populist trusts its press. it does trust us to call things bs when it is, but to focus on it and make -- blow it up, i think that's when we lose them. >> look, frank, you've made this point to me as a mentor more than once. i'm not looking to curse on television, but you have to call something what it is. r people mistake themselves on television that they're in the

popularity business. you're not. you're there to check power. you're not going to be popular. people aren't going to like it. you got to get comfortable with that and do your job. >> and so does donald trump need to get comfortable with that. the media needs to have the role and maintain the role of respectful adversary. trump does too. this is an adversarial relationship. it's built into the constitution. it goes back to the first president. no president, no leader likes the media. they're there to harangue, to harass, and to hold them to account when they say something inaccurate, when they flip-flop, when they push out a policy. what is the impact of the policy, whether it's immigration or tax cuts or anything. what is that going to have on people, on real lives? that's what needs to not be lost in all of this. my concern is that donald trump is positively brilliant in the way he uses this news. call it what you want, fake news or whatever, because it distracts from so many other

things. and you have got to manage both. you've got to balance both. hold him to account on what he says and how he says it, but also not lose sight of the other things that are then getting buried because of what he said. >> yes, we need to roll up our sleeves and work harder and do all of this and point out both simultaneously. i want to read this. this is the epitome of the through the look glass logic that we're now seeing on twitter. this is something the president-elect retweeted from someone else about the illegal voting. >> look, we have an example realtime right now. >> hold on. i need to read this first. this is one that he retweeted. @jeffzeleny, what proof do you have that donald trump is not suffer from millions of fraud votes? journalist, do your job, he says. >> proves the nonexistence of fact, which i think is a super power, by the way. to be able to prove a nonexistent fact.

>> how do you know it wasn't martians? >> frank just made an important point that's playing out in realtime. i didn't mean to interrupt you. trump just tweeted -- he knows he's wrong about millions. he knows he's wrong. >> how do you know? >> because he's a very intelligent guy. it's a great distraction. he now doesn't want us talking about the fact he's so wrong about the millions. so he's attacking cnn. he just put out a tweet saying, flag burning should have a big penalty. you should not be able to burn the american flag. if you do, there should be consequences, perhaps loss of citizenship or a year in jail. frank says no. now, clearly he could not have consulted with anyone about the law before he tweeted this. he tweeted earlier cnn stinks, which means he's paying attention. thank you. and he's using it as a distraction. >> i hope he's