>> reporter: jeanne moos, cnn, new york. >> we understand she died surrounded by those who loved her. thank you for joining us. it is time now for "ac 360." good evening. we are coming to you from studio 51 where people are arriving for a van jones town hall featuring kwhoopi goldberg getting under way at the top of the next hour. no shortage of news. been that way nearly every day since president trump took office. he's been busy signing orders and large lly making good on so of his campaign issues. some of mr. trump's supporters on this program and elsewhere have said false claims are not a story, that the american people don't care about these things. they say our focus should be on those executive actions instead. the fact is we think we can and will do both as we've done since

mr. trump took office. it's a big deal with if the president of the united states says things that aren't true. we think words and facts matter. it's also a big deal when a new president signs a dozen executive actions in six days. as we have each night, tonight we'll cover all those stories. we begin with mr. trump's call for a federal investigation into voter fraud. new comments to david muir on abc news's "world news tonight." >> when you say in your opinion, millions of illegal votes, that is something extremely fundamental to our functioning democracy. >> sure, sure. >> you say you're launching an investigation. >> sure. done. >> what you have presented so far has been debunked, called false -- >> look at the pew reports. >> i called the author last night and he told me they found no evidence of voter fraud. >> then why dead he write the report? >> he said no evidence. >> then why did he write the

report? then he's groveling again. i talk about the reporters that dprovl that want to write something you want to hear but not many do. >> you'll lunch an investigation. >> an investigation to find out and the next time -- i will say this. of those votes cast, none of them come to me. they would all be for the other side. none of them come to me. when you look at the people that are registered, dead, illegal, and two states and in some cases maybe three states, we have a lot to look into. >> just before air time, house speaker paul ryan weighed in telling greta van susteren -- jason chaffetz says the president can do what he wants with the justice department but his committee is not planning to investigate. joining us is david beck teshgs one responsible for that pew report president trump mentioned and the one he says is now groveling. appreciate you being with us.

you were with us last night. didn't seem to be groveling last night, don't appear to be tonight. we'll see how the interview goes. you heard president trump in that clip saying to quote take a look at the pew reports. let's do that. the report, which i want to point out, you authored, did it find there was any widespread voter fraud? >> so i contributed to that report when i was at pew and it was released in february of 2012. that report made no findings with regard to fraud whatsoever. the report does not hide the ball at all. it's not a long report. i encourage everyone to go to the pew website. it's still up there. read it. it's what the voter rolls looked like five years ago trying to determine what challenges election officials faced keeping voter lists up to date as people moved. as the report said and and as i stated in 2012 and subsequently even before the election, it makes no findings with regard to fraud. >> we should point out voter

fraud -- people being registered in two states, somebody dead still on the rolls that is not voter fraud. voter fraud is somebody voting illegally, who should not be voting, correct? >> yeah. that's a very important point. literally millions of people are moving in any given year and when they move they might go to their new state, they might get a new drive's license, register to vote in their new state but they don't think to cancel their voter registration in their previous state. in fact, it's difficult to do even if they thought to try to do that. that's why we see things like the news today that the treasury secretary nominee and adviser steve bannon both have active registrations in multiple states. >> so does tiffany trump, the president's daughter. >> yes, exactly. and they're not committing fraud. i think in all likelihood what happened is they moved and election officials had difficult time getting enough data to

confirm they had moved to remove them from the old state. this is something that millions of americans experience but is getting much better since 2012. in 2016 and 2017, voter lists are more accurate probably than they've ever been before thanks to the efforts of a bipartisan group of republicans and democrats who have worked to improve the quality of the voter lists and ensure only those eligible can vote. >> when president trump says, well, if there wasn't voter fraud, why were you doing the study? the study was looking at the multiple registrations, people have died and the difficulties the voting system has. is that right? >> that's right. we've been working with election officials for years and facing to problems keeping up with the mobility of americans. in working with them we wanted to try to quantify the nature of that problem and do some quality, nonpartisan data driven research to do that. there was a good reason for doing that. in fact that report led to a lot

of positive reforms that happened since this ep with online voter registration spreading to 33 states plus d.c. to more states sharing data between them to keep voter records up to date and get more voters register on to the list. that report had the impact that we hoped. >> finally, when the president of the united states says that you are groveling, i have to give you a chance to respond to that or i don't even know what it means exactly. are you grovel sfg. >> i don't know what to say about that. i certainly didn't ask to have the report cited by any political candidate. my only interest here is that the research that i and many others have done over time is cited accurately. then we get an accurate picture of what's going on in our election system and that accurate picture is our election system is remarkably secure and the republican and democratic election officials who run it all over the country work very hard to make sure only those eligible can vote but those who are eligible have an easy time voting. that's why study after study,

from the bush doj to the federal election assistance commission to professors at academic institutions to republican and democratic secretaries of state who investigate this, they've all found there's just a slight amount of voter fraud in the united states. >> david becker, appreciate your time. thank you. let's dig deeper into the investigation. how it might work, who would it involve. emma brown has more on that and joins us. who would be in charge of an investigation into trump's claims of widespread voter fraud? >> we've learned from a senior administration official that he is eyeing an executive order on voter fraud or presidential memorand memorandum. the expectation would be the department of justice would lead the charge but i've spoken to several officials there who are perplexed and hoping the administration will provide for clarity. for the doj and the fbi to open an investigation, there is a specific allegation, someone

calling in or specific evidence and as we know this allegation there was widespread voter fraud, millions voted illegally, is completely baseless so frankly it would be unprecedented for department of justice to lead the charge in an investigation like this. the president has other options. he could appoint a special prosecutor, ask a congressional committee to investigate, but as you pointed out earlier, politicians on capitol hill are signaling they have no interest in investigating this, anderson. >> recently trump's own legal team suggested there was no voter fraud in documents filed with the court. the president is only talking about focusing on state where is he himself didn't really compete, where he didn't visit, california and others, right? >> right. california, new york. we heard sean spicer cite those states today, states that voted overwhelmingly against donald trump when you look at the popular vote. don mcgahn, trump's white house counsel, filed a brief in desz sayi ing december saying there's no evidence the election was

tainted by voter fraud in response to jill stein's vote recount effort in michigan. so today sean spicer said we're going broader, not looking at those states where there's a close count, looking at states like california and new york where there was a different margin and clearly hillary clinton won the popular vote. to be seen. >> keirsten powers, kayleigh mcenany, margaret hoover and jonathan ta seenny. i would no problem with an investigation to fix problems if the there's dead peel on the rolls. but that is not voter fraud. the president is alleging 3 million people illegally voting. >> we have to think about what it would take to get people to show up and pretend to be those dead people. that's what it would have to

take. i think it's confusing to people watching. they hear dead people on the rolls and they think something smells. but someone then has to get a person to go and pretend to be that person and then it has to happen millions of times. right? and so i think that, you know, this is pretty crazy stuff. and the fact that they're sickling out states like california and new york as if it's suspicious that people would vote for a democrat in those states. those are democratic states. >> president trump did not really compete in california, wasn't spending hundreds of millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars to compete in california which hillary clinton clearly was competing there. >> exactly. to him to say i can guarantee it would not be voters for me, i mean, how can he guarantee that? it's crazy. >> kayleigh? >> i agree with you that it was not millions of people. i have seen the evidence, donald trump claims to have it, i'd like to see that.

what i disagree with is those who are calling donald trump a liar, how dare he lie about this, when, in fact, it's nearly impossible to prove he's lying particularly when we have a peer reviewed study that says 6% of the illegal immigrant population said to congress, a congressional study, yes, we voted, that would be hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants. i don't think it's beyond the realm of comprehension there are many illegal immigrants voting. scale is what i question. i don't mind him calling the study but i think he would advantage himself to be prospeck tich, cleaning up the voting rolls, rather than retrospective calling into question his election and the popular vote. >> this is complete fantasy. what there is in the united states is voter suppression and what happens is in many states, particularly republican governors pass laws to try to prevent people from voting. the voting system in this country is deficient.

it has nothing to do with fraud. it has to do with people's ability to vote, get access, have enough voting machines, people's voting rights suppressed in many states. in this state during the primary that happened between hillary clinton and bernie sanders, 120,000 votes disappeared in brooklyn. that didn't necessarily disadvantage one over the other but it showed we have a broken system. in the same way donald trump began a conversation about sexual harassment when it came out he probably sexually assaulted women in multiple instances, this is a missed opportunity. we have to have a conversation. >> yes, voter suppression and voter fraud happens around the edges if we're honest but the idea of scale, 3 million to 5 million people didn't -- unauthorized people here. to use kirsten's words, that's crazy. if we're honest, it's been well

documented donald trump has a bee in his bonnett about not having won the popular vote and he can't let it go and that's what's shaking around in his mind. he has a history of informing himself based on anecdotal experiences rather than really reading books or reading studies or papers because otherwise he would see there is no evidence for this. >> i don't know if i should say this, but i feel bad for somebody -- he won an extraordinary victory. what he did was incredible. it was incredible the amount of money hillary clinton spent, the relatively small amount of money donald trump spent. he won an incredible victory. the fact that he doesn't feel that and take joy in that is amazing. >> i agree but i'm going to disagree with a little of what margaret said. on the right there is this drum beat all the time about voter fraud and they're always claiming, doing these stories, if you listen to right wing

media, always telling people elections are being stolen an what do we need to cdo about it. voter i.d. who does that keep from voting? usually democrats. i don't think it's has scattered a shot as it seems. part is probably his ego and part is agenda driven. >> it's a worthy cause. according to the pew study, 1 in 8 people on the voting rolls are dead or -- can you cup that will with a system where you don't have to show i.d. when you vote and we've had nearly 700 convictions of voter fraud. this is a problem but it wasn't part of donald trump's platform and to make it your rallying cry when we can build all the wall and do the things that are important -- >> on the rolls, having dead people on the rolls is different than voter fraud. >> hold on. bannon, mnuchin, tiffany trump have multiple registrations. >> kirsten made an excellent point.

this is a long-standing republican strategy which is to question voting, say there's all this voter fraud in order to spresz the vote on the part of democratic leaning voters. this goes back way before donald trump. >> a presidential election determined by 100 something votes in florida having accuracy and fairness and no fraud whatsoever -- >> the kind of voting laws passed and the notion frexz there aren't enough voting machines in cleveland, places that are predominantly african-american, these are republican strategies to reduce the number of democratic voters. >> i want to ask you because you're smart and you have good will, and you just said the thing about the hundreds of dead people on the rolls. where is the breakdown? because those hup people have to go and vote. there has to be a conspiracy to get some people to go in and impersonate dead people and vote. where is it you see that happening? >> we've seen democratic operatives caught on camera

conspireing to do this. >> to the point you could swing an election. [ talking over each other ] >> there are people who do bad things. trump is saying millions of people. that's a conspiracy of having the names on the rolls, finding out who the dead people are and finding millions of individual americans to walk into places, pretend to be dead people, and vote. where is that evidence? >> we have a project veritas video with democratic operatives on camera trying to do just that. a few hundred votes in florida determined a presidential election. >> that's two or three people at best. it is like .004% of the total electorate. >> in 2000 it was a few hundred. >> that is national. >> we have to -- >> state by state it is around

the margins. >> we have to -- >> we haven't seen it. >> we have to -- >> we haven't seen voter fraud change an election. >> we have seen an election come down to a few hundred votes. >> all right. i don't think we'll solve it tonight. up next, president trump's order today launching the process of building a wall on the southern border. mexico's vicente fox weighs in on donald trump's claim his country will reimburse american taxpayers for it. also coming up, van jones' new town hall with whoopi goldberg on the first week of the trump administration. jim! you're in! but when you have high blood pressure and need cold medicine that works fast, the choice is simple. coricidin hbp is the only brand that gives powerful cold symptom relief without raising your blood pressure. coricidin hbp.

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mexico's president is under pressure to cancel an upcoming trip to washington following a pair of executive actions among them the wall. jim acosta joins us from the white house. did the president talk about who will pay for the wall? >> reporter: he insists mexico eventually but first they'll use money they have and seek more funds from congress. the president is saying mexico will pay the u.s. back but there are no specifics on how that is going to happen. he simply can't authorize the billions needed on his own so he'll need help from congress. >> did he say how he would implement what was announced today? >> reporter: some details. he's directing dhs to step up identification of undocumented

criminals to be removed and deported and the administration this start warning the so-called sanctuary cities they have to stop harboring undocumented immigrants or they'll lose federal money. but the cities may not comply. chicago's mayor rahm emanuel said today his city will continue to act as a sanctuary city so this is very much a work in progress. >> the president of mexico is supposed to visit president trump next week. >> reporter: as you said, mexican president enrique pen yay toe is under tremendous pressure to cannes tell trip now that president trump has announced his plan for the wall. as of this hour i'm told by the white house that this visit between these two leaders is still on. you'll recall they met in mexico city over the summer and at that time, the president of mexico told mr. trump his country is not paying for that wall so things could get dicey with mexico.

just turn to vicente fox. he tweeted once again mexico is not playing for the wall. there is an expletive in the middle of that sentence i can't repeat on this program. >> we'll hear from him in just a second. thanks. donald trump doubled down on his claim that mexico will reimburse u.s. taxpayers. he spoke with abc's "world news tonight's" anchor david muir. >> we will in a form be reimbursed by mexico. >> they'll pay us back. >> 100%. >> the american taxpayer will pay for the wall at first. >> we'll be reimbursed at a later date with whatever transaction we make with mexico. >> during the campaign, trump said mexico would flatout pay for the wall, never talked about reimbursing. but mexico made it clear they won't pay a penny. i spoke to vicente fox. we're learning the president of mexico is under pressure to

cancel his trip to the u.s. should he? >> it's a very extended, deep pressure and i'm sure he is considering it because the behavior on his counterpart is horrible. it's not worth sitting with a guy that is so fixed on his ideas that he's so authoritarian and that it's only looking after gaping the momentum, recuperating what he lost last weekend. he is considering it and she should. at any point in time when he's sitting with the president he's again aggressive with mexico. he's offending mexico. if he imposes taxation on cars

made in mexico, president pap ya should stand up and say we don't need your nafta, we can live without it. you cannot because the food, the grain that you export to mexico, the meat. the $40 billion you export, automobiles, luxury trucks, agricultural machinery. motor pars. auto parts. over $40 billion. which means again millions of jobs for u.s. you tax mexican imports, we will tax u.s. imports in mexico. >> he's said he'll take concrete steps to build the wall, get that going by executive action. he's saying he'll probably have to get money from congress initial hi. he continues to say ultimately

mexico will pay for it, whether it's directly, whether it's through renegotiating trade agreements, taxing remittances that are sent from people in the united states to mexico. do you think the wall will get build? >> i have said and that mexico will never pay for that [ bleep ] wall and now i have to repeat it to this guy spicer, which is exactly the same line he repeated this morning that mexico's going to pay. they better understand that we are not paying for that wall. that will u.s. taxpayers will pay for that wall and it is a wall that is a waste. it serves no purpose on the objectives that are set for that. >> when americans, though who support donald trump, who want that wall built, what do you say to them? why is it something -- they're saying every country should be

able to control its board ir, there's a problem on the southern border, why isn't a wall part of the solution? >> i just saw a poll that mentioned that 80% of trump followers, 25% of u.s. pop haig, that's all he has, 80%, but when you talk about all american people, it's scarcely 40%. the big majority is not in favor of building a wall. >> to those who are, what do you say? why suspect a wall acceptable? >> it's just stupid. it doesn't work. there is already a wall. it's at least covering 70% of the borderline, a wall, big wall. the remaining 30% is desert, plays that there's no people there. why is he going to waste taxpayers' money in this stupid wall? it's just waste of money.

>> what do you see as the relationship moving forward between mexico and the united states? what do you think it will look like under president trump? >> with united states, it's excellent. it should be kept excellent. we both have constructed a great nafta north america successful competitive, great worldwide, canada, united states, and mexico. there is no reason to change that. that's u.s. that's america. but trump is a different thing. he doesn't seem to be an american. he's a false prophet that is taking that nation into the desert. >> one of the things that donald trump believes and many of his supporters believe as well is that mexico needs to do more to stop people from crossing the border illegally, to stop people from coming up from central america, through mexico, into the united states. >> yeah. we are doing that.

today the amount of mexicans crossing the border undocumented is less than half what it used on the. what is changes is the central americans. today 80% of people crossing that border to obtain work comes from central america. trump doesn't even know that. how is he going to find out those supposedly 11 million mexicans that are in united states undocumented? he doesn't know where they are. and furthermore, this people returning to mexico is because mexico has full employment. in my region, which is 60% of mexican population, there's full employment. so we finally are doing it. why the stubbornness of trump to try to provoke a mexican in

poverty? people in your backyard, people with hunger, people unemployed, people it gets violent because of the hate and the offenses they have received. why is the win for the united states on this stupid proposal of trump? i really mean that. >> president fox, i appreciate your time tonight. thank you. >> thank you, anderson. good luck. just ahead, more reaction from president trump's orders not just to build a wall but ramp up enforcement. safety doesn't come in a box. it's not a banner that goes on a wall. it's not something you do now and then. or when it's convenient. it's using state-of-the-art simulators to better prepare for any situation. it's giving offshore teams onshore support. and it's empowering anyone to stop a job if something doesn't seem right. at bp, safety is never being satisfied. and always working to be better.

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donald trump directed jon kelly to look for ways to limit funding for sanctuary cities that don't report on undocumented imgrants to federal

authorities. president trump talked a lot about that on the campaign trail. i talked with jorge ray moment of silence, univision anchor. whether one agrees or disagrees with president trump, one can't say they're that spried by his executive actions. they're fulfilling his campaign promises. what are you hearing from your viewers? >> what's happening within the hispanic community is we understand that it's a major undertaking to build a wall between mexico and the united states. talking about a 1,900 mile border between both countries. there are already fences and walls in between 600, 700 miles. so if you want to build 1,200 miles of wall between mexico and the united states, it's going to cost you billions of dollars. and it is completely useless. it doesn't work. walls don't work. they give you a false sense of security. but with this as in the past about 40% of undocumented

immigrants come to the united states, they came by plane or they overstayed their visas so it doesn't matter how much money donald trump is going to spend and doesn't matter he fulfills his campaign promise. it won't work. >> it seems with the wall like there are a lot of details that haven't been filled in by this administration. do you think it will happen because, you know, they're obviously parts of the border which there's water, mountains, you can't build a wall on? >> exactly. that's precisely the problem. there are many different estimates but i've seen from $10 billion to $40 billion. i think if donald trump wants to spend $40 doing that, he can do whatever he wants with the money. the fact is he can use that for immigration reform, for other projects. also, if he's interested this stopping drugs coming into the united states, well, i know that el chapo, the most important drug trafficker, is already in a new york jail. there are many other little

chapeaus working on this side of the border, on mexico's side, too, and they're building tunnels. there's nothing you can do if there are millions of americans who use drugs in this country and as long as you have millions of americans using drugs you have drug traffickers in mexico and central america bringing the drugs. when it comes to illegal immigration they'll keep them coming and when it comes to drugs they'll keep coming with a wall or without a wall. there are many other ways to spend $40 billion. >> the president has called for a 5,000-person increase in customs and border protection personnel. do you think that doesn't make a difference? >> might make a difference. they are not calling that a deportation force. but he'll go from 21,000 to 26,000. and this is creating a lot of fear within the hispanic community and within the immigrant community. so what is that going to mean to many families?

basically we're talking about the destruction of many families. one area that concerns me a lot is that the policy of catch and release in which if you were an undocumented immigrant coming from guatemala with a child and you say that you're being persecuted or a gang threatened you, you are allowed to be here in the united states. well, that catch and release policy is going to end. and if that happens, then here's my question to donald trump -- are you going to start deporting children, mr. trump? is that what you're going to be doing? that's precisely what he announced today. without catch and release, that means thousands of children whose only option to live is to come to the united states is going to end. >> when it comes to stripping federal funding for several sanctuary cities there's a big resistance from leaders in those cities. many say they'll not comply with the federal government. short of the feds sending in people to rund up undocumented

immigrants, how does it affect them if the cities themselves say they will protect them? >> i think what we're going to be seeing, anderson, is a real fight, a real political fight between the mayors of some of the most important cities in the country namely los angeles, san francisco, chicago, and new york against donald trump, because no one really is defending undocumented immigrants in this country. mexico unfortunately has remained silent in all this debate and who's defending immigrants in this country? this is a country founded by immigrants. i'm very concerned about these anti-immigrant measures taken by president trump. he's portraying immigrants in a false way. he's portraying immigrants as if they are criminals and terrorists and rapists and that's not true. all the stories i've seen conclude that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes. immigrants are less likely to be

behind bars. let me refer you to american immigration consulate, the report is fan it is a nitas -- that sense. immigrants are not the enemy of the united states. he's trying to create an enemy. >> he's not acted on dhaka. there stl a compromise between those who are against it and support it? >> i hope there's something new about dhaka. i know dreamers, there's 750,000 treatmenters in the united states who are protected against deportation. they have work permits, driver licenses and it seems that's the only area i can see right now. with a little hope. in which may be, i don't know, but maybe donald trump will realize there's no reason whatsoever to deport these children who are truly americans. the only difference is they don't have a paper to show it.

and legalizing through the so-called bridge aktd that would protect them for three years and eventually hopefully legalize them permanently. >> jorge ramos, thank you. >> thank you. just ahead, waterboarding. president trump says he's open to bringing it back. the reaction. and van jones hosts another town hall, whoopi goldberg part of the conversation. have conquered highways, mountains, and racetracks. and now much of that same advanced technology is found in the audi a4. with one notable difference... ♪ the highly advanced audi a4, with available traffic jam assist. ♪

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as we said a busy day for president trump. in addition to executive actions on immigration, his call for federal investigations to debunk voter fraud, he said waterboarding works and suggested he'd like to bring it back. here's what he told david muir of abc news. >> as far as i'm concerned, we have to fight fire with fire. now weather that being say, i'm going with general mattis. i'm going with my secretary because i think pompeo is going to be phenomenal. i'm going to to with what they say. but i have spoken as recently as 24 hours ago with people at the highest level of intelligence. i asked them the question. does it work? does torture work? and the answer was yes, absolutely. >> president trump also said he would defer to the officials who will be in charge of carrying out his terrorism policies as he mentioned, james mattis and

michael pompemike pompeo. it is illegal to use waterboarding. pom yay-pay owe said he would consider bringing back enhanced interrogation methods during certain circumstances. republican lawmakers heard about trump's remarks while attending a retreat in philadelphia. manu raju joins us from there with the latest. what do gop lawmakers have to say about the president's comments? >> reporter: they're not supportive. congress overwhelmly voted to limit interrogation techniques to the army field manual voted by 78-21 margin. that army field manual excludes so-called ep hansed interrogation techniques, a lot of people call torture, including waterboarding. i had a chance to ask the number three senate republican john thune if whether he supports

this this idea of bringing back waterboarding and going back to the route before that went into law. he wasn't supportiive. >> those issues are law. congress has spoken. and when it comes to enhanced interrogation techniques, my understanding is i haven't seen the new executive action or what's being proposed but my understanding is they're going to look at, examine some of those issues. with respect to torture, that's banned. the army field manual makes that very clear. the law now is tied to the army field manual. >> reporter: this issue divides the republicans at this retreat where they're trying to get on the same page behind donald trump's rather ambitious agenda. i talked to former vice president dick cheney ease daughter, liz, a congressman from wyoming, and she believes the enhanced techniques worked

but is not necessarily supportive of changing the law, would not go that far. it shows this idea if donald trump goes this far and wants congress to change the law, we might have a fight with his own party. >> thank you very much. joining me now phil mudd. you worked at the cia, you briefed folks who were involved with these techniques. does torture work? >> be clear, torture violates federal statutes. the appropriate question is if you put someone under dur rez, forget about waterboarding, how about sleep deprivatiodeprivati people give you information over time under duress, yes. they lie as well just as they would lie if you didn't subject them to deprivation. we found information that was not only valuable but critical. >> i don't think the president himself said torture. he said he asked people at the highest levels if torture works and they said yes.

for accuracy's sake. in terms of waterboarding, it's outlawed now, what would bringing it back mean? what would be possible? >> i don't think it would be. a couple things. i don't think the president understands there are multiple layers to consult. we talked about congress, including members of his own party saying no. if you're at the cia, you want a pile of paper six feet high before you consider it. what does the justice department say? does it comply with u.s. haw? then the new cia director, mike pompeo, you have to say not only are you willing to do but willing to subject your people to what will an to them in four or eight years when another congress says not only don't we agree with what donald trump said but now we're going to hunt you down and prosecute you? there are a lot of steps the president hasn't considered. >> what about reopening of black sites? >> i don't think it happens. if you're the cia director, you

ask a simple question. in 2002, we sat around the table, we didn't understand al qaeda, didn't understand their hierarchy, we thought hay had access to anthrax and they did. they were talking to pakistani nuclear scientists. would the next 9/11 be wmd. fast forward to 2017, i don't care what public opinion. we understand isis much better and the threat we face is much lower from what we faced then. my question is not only whether it's appropriate or works, why would you do it? >> the president is saying we're seeing techniques being used by groups like isis we've never seen since the middle ages. people being burned alive in cams, drowned alive, children executing, beheading people. you have to fight fire with fire. >> the litmus test for whether we use these operations is not what a terrorist organization does. that is our litmus test. it's not whether we punish

someone. the question is whether we feel this country is under intense pressure to conduct things that people now think violate american values because we think 3,000 people are going to die tomorrow. is because if one side is doing it, if the u.s. starts doing it. it's hard to make the argument that when the enemy captures america's troops, they don't use the same techniques on them. >> that's a fair point, it's a point we heard after 2002 when we captured our first prisoner. let me take you inside that room in 2002 and hope that we never face that moment again. because here's what you will face. and all of us made the same decision, he looked when we thought there might be anthrax, there might be more jumpers and said, why don't you go home and have babies. i'll never talk again. and we thought he held part of the secret to stopping the next event. if you're under that kind of

pressure, you might take a step regardless of understanding that isis might say we'll do the same thing. >> thank you. coming up, we're going to hear from a syrian family who arrived in vermont just one week ago. president trump expected to take new measures to get refugees out. are they afraid? we'll be right back.

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the market.redict but through good times and bad... ...at t. rowe price... ...we've helped our investors stay confident for over 75 years. call us or your advisor. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. if you're gonna make an entrance... [car driving upon the water] ♪ tonight breaking news, senior white house official now says that president trump's announcement on refugees will not come tomorrow, but instead he'll be taking executive action

on trade. the new immigration policy will be coming soon though and when it does, it's expected it will suspend the refugee program for up to four months. particularly at risk are syrians playing war in a humanitarian catastrophe. the war would end a program for admitting syrian refugees. now since the election, we've been getting into the field as much as possible and telling the stories of people living the impact. sometimes it's positive, sometimes it's not. america uncovered. here's randy king. >> reporter: one week, that's how long this syrian family has been in the united states. they arrived just two days before donald trump was inaugurated. he was a french teacher, her husband an accountant. they fled from damascus to turkey to escape the violence. after two years of background checks, they finally made it to vermont. >> translator: we were worried about ourselves. worried about our children.

we came here, we want to live in peace. it's better than living in the war situation we were in. >> reporter: they are the first of about 25 syrian and iraqi families expected to arrive in rutland, vermont, by september. about 100 refugees in all. rutland's mayor invited them to set until his city around the same time then candidate donald trump vowed, if elected, he'd stop the flow of refugees into the u.s. and deport the ones already here. >> this is just plain the right thing to do from a compassionate and humanitarian perspective. >> reporter: that's not the only reason the mayor is welcoming the refugees to his city. he's hoping they'll help revitalize it. the city has suffered a major population loss. making it hard for big companies here to fill jobs. the mayor is hoping that syrian refugees will not only add to the population, but also to the work force. the unemployment rate here is about 3%. dangerously low says the mayor. >> we've got dozens, scores of

employers in this community saying they've got hundreds of job openings they just can't fill. >> reporter: but now his whole plan to revive could be in jeopardy. pending an executive order from president donald trump. >> i think all of us have some fears about that. i think it's concerns are misplaced. the security measures are in place for refugees, especially coming from syria, will not put this community at risk. that's a fact. >> reporter: this couple is hosting the syrian family until their apartment is ready. do you wish that president trump could meet the couple and the family that you have in your home? >> i wish that anyone who thinks that it is a bad idea for them to come could just take a little snapshot. they're wonderful people. but they're not coming here to harm us, they're coming here to escape harm. >> reporter: tim cook a doctor in town says he doesn't want refugees settling in his city. not because he thinks they're dangerous, but because he thinks they'll end up costing tax

payers money. so are you saying the mayor and whoever decided that the refugee should come here got it wrong. >> yes. unequivocally. >> reporter: he says he fully supports president trump's opposition to taking in refugees. >> i think we've done enough as a country. i'm tapped out. and this nation is tapped out. we need to fix our own problems first. and then we can, you know, reconfigure and see if we can rescue the rest of the world. >> reporter: this family says they're not worried about president trump's plan, they feel safe and secure in vermont already. >> i like the people of vermont. >> reporter: the people. they're very nice. >> very nice. >> reporter: you might have to learn to ski. [ laughter ] >> i like skiing. >> reporter: exactly. one week, they hope it's only

the beginning of their new life in the united states. >> randy joins us now, if the policy does shift and more are not allowed in, does that affect in any way the families here? like the family you met? >> the family we met and the group who helped them get here, they're not worry. they think they're safe. you have to remember, donald trump did say that not only does he want to halt refugees from coming to the u.s., he wants to expel, that was his word back in 2015, those who are already here. so we can't forget that. so they might still be in jeopardy. the group that helped them is waiting for another 250 refugees that are supposed to arrive in the u.s. by next friday. those people have spent two years in refugee camps. they've gotten their background checks, clearance, security clearance, they may now not be able to enter and start the process all over again. they'd have to wait in the camps possibly for another two years to start the process over and get the clearance again. so the group is working with the white house, calling them, e-mailing them trying to get some traction on social media. but all they can do now is wait and hope.

>> all right. randy, thanks very much. that does it for us, thanks for watching. the messy truth with van jones starts now. welcome to thes my truth. here we are. we are still inside the very first week of something. i don't know what it is. it's either week one of the trump presidency or it's week one of the anti-trump resistance. either way, the truth has never been messier than it's been these past six days. so tonight, we're going to try to attempt to answer a very serious and very sober question. what in the holy heck is going on in america right now? i mean, it is nuts. it does not even feel like america. first of all, we've got a