that does it for us. thanks for watching. a special edition of smerconish starts right now. ♪ hey, welcome to a special primetime edition of smerconish. week one of the trump presidency. i'm michael smerconish. it has been a hell of a week. the most politically tumultuous in the three decades that i've been paying very close attention. just take a look at today. the executive orders keep coming. the latest suspension of all refugee admissions for 120 days

and for syrians until further notice. in foreign affairs, the president held hands with the british prime minister, but canceled next week's meeting with the mexican president due to the border wall dispute and their joint statements reveal a crucial disagreement. tomorrow he's calling vladimir putin, of whom today he suddenly remarked, quote, i don't say good, bad or indifferent, i don't know the gentleman. so how will that chat go? he's also dialing back his plan to bring back torture saying he'll defer to secretary maddog mattis, but he still thinks it's effective. i'll talk tonight to man who implement t interrogation post 9/11. i'd like you to see and comment in realtime on tweets that you send me. @smerconish. you are an f'ing disgrace to

independence -- whoa -- as you've had your head up trumps ass for weeks. grfooh. i'll have to ask my kids about that. you know what's unique about your tweet? is that normally i catch hell from the left and the right. so i guess tonight is unique for a whole other reason. but first, how is he doing? that, like everything else in this country, depends upon your silo, your bubble. and i know this from my personal interactions, hours spent this week conversing with my sirius/xm radio listeners and many social media exchanges. here's how i see the divide. the to critics, the 73 million who voted for someone other than donald trump, this thing is already a hot mess. we have a president still fighting over the size of his inaugural crowd. he sends bombastic, petty tweets. he made an overly political speech standing in sacred space at the cia.

lies about voter fraud. entertains thoughts of reinstituting torture. has already offended the mexican president. now wants to stick the american people with the bill for the wall. and has a senior adviser openly telling the media they are the opposition. but none of that seems to matter to the 46% who voted for him. they are elated. here's what they see. a media-driven fight over crowd size. immediate action like he promised to end obamacare. a reinstated abortion ban. the end of the transpacific partnership, nafta on life support. a revival of the key stone pipeline, follow through on that pledge to build the wall and a willingness to send the feds to end all that carnage in chicago. there's not much overlap in those two views. but there is a way of working through all this. the policy disputes are mostly honest differences. we had an election.

one side won. the other side lost. the losing side has to face policy consequences. and the 46%, they're in charge. but what is unacceptable is government by distortion, by fear, by intimidation, making unfounded assertions about voter froud or need alsoly insulting the people of mexico, that's intolerable. left undeterred, that can only metastasize to more impactful issuesp there is an institution that should be playing a moderating role with regard to this divide. i speak of the congress. congress can limit the first use of nuclear weapons, halt the building of walls without authority and sign off on whether there are sanctions with russia. i believe the congress has a leadership role to play in the court of public opinion and in private discussions with the president about modulating his behavior when necessary. so here's hoping that they fill the enormous void. you know, i've always tried to

balance this program with voices from all sides. and just last april we held a focus group in philadelphia made up of voters who had changed their registration to republican so they could vote in the primary. here are some highlights. >> i truly believe he cares about us. i have always been a proud american. i'm tired of apologizing for being a proud american. >> he started saying things like the wall, like immigration. >> some of those folks are back tonight to see what they think of the new president. jimmy fin and jerry and marylou zimmer. all right, guys. it's only a week. maybe it's unfair. give him a grade. how was the week? >> michael, i think i have to differ from your opinion. i think i would give him an "a." >> hey, my opinion was to lay out the way both sides see this because there doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground. you give him an "a." what's his grade?

>> i'm giving him an a-minus. >> why the minus? >> hillary's still walking free and the clintons are still hoarding and stealing money. >> nrd, you really didn't want her locked up. >> i want it to be proven. let her go to the old folks home afterwards, that's fine instead of the prison, but the facts need to come out. >> jim fin, what's the grade? >> michael, i give him an "a." every day i get home from work, i'm wondering what he did today. so i think he's doing a great job. >> i wonder what he did today but maybe not for the same reasons you're wondering. but it hasn't been dull, that's for sure. look, you know i love -- >> not dull at all. not dull at all. >> you know i love legal tablets. i love drawing a line down the middle and looking at the pluses and minuses. the zimmers, you heard the list of the critic complaints. why is he arguing about crowd sizes? why does he tweet in the manner that he does? what about that lie, at least according to "the new york times" that 3 to 5 million

illegals voted in this election, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. you know the criticisms. what are you thinking when you hear them? >> as far as the voters, that's to be seen. >> you mean the fraud issue? >> yes. but let's go back to talking about the crowd size. the big issue there was they come out -- i'm not going to name the stations. he threw the bust of martin luther king out. that's like telling the nation the president came in and threw eggs at his grave. went to atlanta and god knows what he did with it. they try to start this. >> you know that didn't happen and you don't like the way in which that was reported. >> absolutely. that is not reporting. that is not telling the news. that's making the news. >> you're telling me it's the media. as i articulated in my pluses and minus, you think this is all a media concoction and that he hasn't misbehaved or acted inappropriately so far? >> he has made some mistake. >> bias. yeah, bias. >> but i do feel that the news

media is very, very biased. >> you think out to get him. >> out to get everybody. to get the ratings up. ratings are more important than facts. >> but let's talk facts. because when he talks about voter fraud and when he talks about 3 to 5 million people having voted illegally in this election, i wanted to know where did he get that from, the citation that he offers is pew research. i have the study in my hands. that bears no resemblance to what really occurred in this study. do facts matter? >> facts matter, but who did the study? >> a nonpartisan organization associated with the -- go ahead, i'm sorry, jim. >> i don't think -- that's one -- i don't think we should be worrying about that. he's already the president. so my biggest thing is the media bias, whatever. we got to all start coming together because this is starting to get to be a real pain. i mean, it's every day. it don't matter what channel you

go on, news or whatever. he's our president. so let's, you know, we got to get together on this. >> i'm all for -- >> i got grandkids. >> i'm all for respecting him as the president of the united states, but there are a number of issues that i think are fair game. mary lou, he campaigned on that pledge to build the wall. >> i'm going to give you that. >> jim, hold on one second. i want to ask mary lou a question. he campaigned on the pledge to build a wall. who is going to pay for the wall? >> well, we are, but trump is, i believe, he's a man of his word. and he's also the businessman who has the art of the deal. i believe he will make the deal with the mexican president and the wall will be paid for out of mexico. >> hey, jim, doesn't it make you nervous -- and maybe you went to one of those events where it was a big line. who is going to pay for the wall? everybody would say mexico. but he's now asking the congress for somewhere in the

neighborhood of $14 billion. that's all of us paying for the wall. speak to that issue. >> i understand that, but that i think he's going to -- i think mexico isn't going to pay for the whole wall. i'm going to tell you that right now. yes, taxpayers, us, we're going to have to pay for some of it. but i agree in the long run. i said we'll probably get most of our money back. but not all of it. i got to agree on that. >> and you're okay with that? >> with paying, yeah, if it's going to protect my family, yeah. >> you okay with the american taxpayers? >> if it will protect us. >> let me ask the two of you. >> would you rather pay $14 million. >> billion. >> the $100 billion that we're paying to the illegals, feeding, clothing, giving them social security guards, driver's license. they're going to save money. >> another issue of immigration just came up today. president trump said for the next 120 days we're not taking any more refugees.

i assume you agree with that as well. >> i do, absolutely. >> i agree. >> yep, so do i. >> i agree with you also, jim. he always said that he wanted america first. and if you stop and think about it, if we let these refugees in, not only are they taking money out of our pockets paying for their different medications and types of things this way, they're taking our jobs away. america needs those jobs and that's what trump is for. >> we take homes away from our elderly because they can't buy our taxes and shove them into a home and pay three times more than we could from paying the taxes. we are so worried about people from other countries that have billions of dollars. look what saudi arabia's got. where is their money to take care of their own people? i was brought up to take care of your family comes first. where does the money from saudi arabia? >> i know you're dying to get

into this. go ahead. >> i know. what i'm worried about, what about the children coming over here. that's the only thing with immigration and stuff. the children that's coming here. i have three grandkids, i love kids. you know, that's the only thing. what are we going to do with the kids that are already over here? something has to be done about that. that's a concern of mine, too. >> so those who came by virtue of their parents, they now are here illegally, and you say, mr. trump, president trump, at least let them stay, the dreamers. >> well, i mean, i'm not talking about today. i'm talking about the children that already have been over here for like twoed on three years already that they've done nothing with. that's what i'm saying. >> all right. jim finn, mary lou and jerry zimmer. by the way, is america great again already? . not yet. >> proud to be american. >> for the first time in eight years i can happily say that i'm proud to be an american. >> you weren't proud to be an

american? >> yep. i was very proud. >> i am proud. >> but we applaud someone that said that. that's what we're leaving. >> you're making me nervous because what you're really saying is you yourself weren't proud to be an american -- >> i've been proud to be an american since i crawled out of my first black and gold diapers that had steelers on them when i was first born. never a day i wasn't proud. >> nice of you to come back. >> i'm just prouder today. >> prouder. that i'll accept. thank you, guys. what are you thinking? tweet me @smerconish. put up another one so we can all look at it together. if there were 3 million illegal votes cast deviously wouldn't the dems have been able to win the electoral college? you know what i keep wondering, jessica, the 3 or 4 or 5 million people he speaks to, wouldn't someone be an "access hollywood" or doing a tmz interview or cnn? where are these people? that's what i'd like to know. you've heard from his base. next up what steve bannon calls

the opposition party and i refer to the media and is it ever appropriate for journalists to use the "l" word as in lie? >> unsupported claims. >> maybe not true. >> denial of the facts. >> the president's statement was unsubstantiated. the president's statement was unfounded. >> you've had your share of misstatements over the past few months. >> leading with multiple falsehoods, erroneous figures easily proven to be inaccurate. . ♪ the highly advanced audi a4, with class-leading horsepower. but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing. and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means

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you're watching a special edition of smerconish on president trump's first week in office. so we just heard from trump supporters. now to those that a senior adviser has branded the opposition party -- the media. the president kicked the week off at the cia saying this -- >> as you know, i have a running war with the media. y this are among the most dishonest human beings on earth. >> yesterday senior adviser steve bannon told "the new york times," quote, the media should be embarrassed and humiliated and keep its mouth shut and just listen for a while. the media here is the opposition party. they don't understand this country. they still do not understand why donald trump is the president of the united states. unquote. perhaps he hasn't heard what thomas jefferson once said, and

i'm paraphrasing, better to have newspapers without a government than a government without newspapers. this discrediting of the media uncoincidentally came after many publications began describing statements by the president as lies. other news outlets have tried going the you've emistic route, but in her recent piece, maybe trump isn't lying, "the washington post's" jennifer rubin raises this question. is he lying or is he unable to separate what he wants to believe and what exists literally in front of his eyes? jennifer rubin joins me now as does co-host of npr's on the media, bob garfield. jennif jennifer, explain that quote that i just paraphrased. what were you saying? >> we have two choices when we evaluate these things. he's either deliberately lying, that is, he knows the truth and he's conveying the opposite of the truth or he comes to believe these things fervently that simply aren't so. and if it's the latter, it

basically says that he's not able to deal with the world the way it is. he has to construct a world in which he is the superhero, he is the most acclaimed. he is the most popular. there's no way he could lose the popular vote. that's dangerous. that's not the way democracies work. and the notion that the truth tellers, if you will, anybody else who brings forth the facts, should, be, quote, shut up is really frightful. that's how they talk in nondemocratic countries. >> in backhanded way, are you giving him a pass of sorts? >> well, if you want to say delusional is a pass, i suppose delusional is a pass. >> oh, you flatterer, jennifer. >> yeah, i know. i had this running debate all week with voters. and they're not sure entirely. you know, there is a thin line between deluding yourself because you have to believe something and really kind of knowing that it's not true and telling people something anyway. so listen, let's be honest here, what he is telling us is not true facts.

and if he's going to lie to us about how big a crowd size is when we see two photographs before our eyes, what else is he going to lie about? i'll tell you one thing, that mexico will pay for the wall. that's a lie. >> bob garfield, i want to show you what gerard baker from "the wall street journal" said to chuck todd on "meet the press." roll that. >> do you feel comfortable saying so and so lied, to be that -- you know, if somebody says just an outright falsehood, do you say the word "lie"? is that important to start putting in reporting or not? >> look, i'd be careful about using the word "lie." lie implies much more than just saying something that's false. it implies a deliberate intent to mislead. >> is there a deliberate intent in this case, bob, sufficient that you think media outlets are greenlit to use the word "lie"? >> well, you know, i don't get to make that call for individual outlets. so before i actually answer your direct question, let me answer a

larger one. this notion that the media is an opposition party is preposterous for many reasons, not the least of which there is no media. media is a plural. imagining that they're working in concert is -- well, it's idiotic in addition to being kind of evil. blaming the media for calling out the president on a lie is kind of like tripping over a chair leg and saying it's a conspiracy of the furniture! it's the furniture that are out to get us! i mean, it's just stupid. and it's also evil because it is itself part of a big lie that's been ongoing for 50 years, michael -- >> it's very effective politically -- >> of telling -- it is. that's what you have to clearly understand. if you tell your audiences for 50 years that the media is a monolith that stands for

everything that frightens or -- frightens you or that you dislike or resent well over five decades that seeps in and that has certainly taken place. >> to what end should the media consider as their reporting on this administration that to use that "l" word, and by the way i'm going to put up on the screen because there have been a whole series of different headlines trying to come to terms with this using words like "lie," debunked, without evidence, bogus, unsupported, unsubstantiated, unconfirmed, false. jennifer, if that's the approach the media is taking with regard to the president, of what consideration should it be that it might help him politically? i just interviewed three individuals who are hardped in their believe that they did the right thing in voting for him and this is part of a media cabal. >> it should factor zero. our job is not to confuse people or unconfuse people. it is to tell the truth.

if certain individuals are going to believe a whole host of misrepresentations, frankly i felt sorry for your three guests because they've been so bamboozled over the years one hardly knows where to start. but it's not our job to consider the political implications of what we do. we report, we give analysis to the best of our ability and if the president wants to adopt the tactics of vladimir putin and other dictatorial figures, that's his choice and we'll continue to report on it as fairly, as closely, as aggressively as we know how. >> hey, bob. >> that means calling something by its name. the difference between a lie and mere falsehood is you can be certain that the lie was told with full knowledge that it isn't true, right? that's when you cross the line from giving misinformation to being a liar. and you know, i actually do suspect that the president is significantly delusional on a lot of things. this voter fraud thing being right at the top of the list. but i mean, for crying out loud,

he didn't like the narrative that it rained on his inauguration speech, so the man lied about the weather. he lied about the rain. he will lie about anything if it puts him, he believes in a better light. >> final question for both of you, if i may. i sense frustration in both of you that i just had three individuals here who voted for donald trump, are proud of the way they voted, believe that america is on a path to making itself great again. and that no amount of reportage by your -- >> i'm going to stop you right there, michael. >> wait. i'm going to finish my question. >> you sense incorrectly. our job is not to worry about the feelings of the -- >> bob, i have to finish the question. the question was i sense frustration that you can't reach them. is that a fair assessment? >> no. exactly what i'm saying. it is not our job to change the minds of any portion of the electorate. it is our job to hold the government accountable. it is our job to locate facts

and report them, to do journalism based on evidence. and intellectual rigor. that's our job. and then the chips fall where they may. i'm not going to sweat whether your audience -- portions of your audience or portions of the michigan electorate don't get that donald trump is a dishonest man making insane policy decisions. i can't effect that. >> quick answer -- >> i can report the truth and that's what my colleagues are doing every single day and being called and enemy for doing it. >> are you frustrated at an inability to reach the 46% like the three with whom i led the show? >> no. i think you're absolutely right. i think our job is to tell it like we see it, call them like we see it. and you know what? the president of the united states is not going to shut up the press any more than he's going to shut up government employees who he now wants to

gag in presenting scientific knowledge to the american people. you cannot shut down free thought in a democracy. you cannot shut down the press. that's what he's trying to too. right now i think it's our job to dig even harder, look at those conflicts, look at those connections to russia, look at the lies, look at the policy implications of what he's doing and report it. and if the american people still want him, that's their choice. >> jennifer rubin, bob garfield, thank you. let's see what the audience is tweeting right now @smerconish. brilliant illustration of how real our bubbles are and what the other side sees. santo, these bubbles are a two-way street. i have acknowledged here at the existence of my virtual northeast united states i-95 corridor bubble, but it goes both ways, and i think you've just had that illustrated. give me another one. i can sit here and read tweets all night. i love it. you're being unfair, unbiased, you're giving the media a bad

name. oh, stan. still ahead on our look at president trump's first week, he met with the british prime minister but next week's powwow with mexican's president, that's already canceled. what does his foreign policy look like, building bridges or building walls? >> i want to build a wall, we have to build a wall. immediate construction of a border wall. look, the wall is necessary. i'm talking about a real wall. i'm talking about a wall that's got to be like serious. when it comes to healthcare, seconds can mean the difference between life and death. for partners in health, time is life. we have 18,000 people around the world. the microsoft cloud helps our entire staff stay connected and work together in real time to help those that need it. the ability to collaborate changes how we work. what we do together changes how we live.

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hands with britain's prime minister theresa may. and though today he navigated his first meeting with a global leader, next week's meeting with mexican president enrique yea pena nieto, that's already canceled. why? because president trump already publicly recommitted to building a border wall and then floated the idea of paying for it with a 20% tax on all goods coming in from mexico. they did speak on the phone today. what did we just learn? joining me is contributing editor at foreign policy. like a lab experiment. so let's pull out the bunson burners and so forth. what did we just figure out? >> not an encouraging first experiment especially because he was doing this on a kind of modestly-sized, relatively helpless ally. so we think, what if it's china? >> so if you look at this example, you would say he starts with this campaign pledge that he made, which in itself was a nonsensical pledge, to build

this wall and have mexico pay for it. it deals with a problem that doesn't exist. let me cite a fact that people tend to forget. the number of mexicans who are leaving the united states to return to mexico is greater than the number of mexicans who are leaving mexico for the united states. year not having mexicans pour across the border. it's the other way around, in part because our enforcement is so good, in part because the mexican economy is getting better, which is in part because of nafta which he wants to cancel. >> i would say that if the president were representing his view here, he would sigh that the economy is cyclical and there will come a day when the mexican economy is not so robust and those folks will be coming here as they have in the past or perhaps he would pick out one of those high profile crime cases like the kate of kate steinle and say one is too many. >> yes, he would. but here's one more fact for you. if you compare the crime rate among poorly educated mexican, salvadoran and guatemalans to the crime rate of native born americans at the same level of

education, i don't think it's even half. the crime rate, ef demographic of immigrants is much lower than it is among americans. >> when the call ended today, hour long, sounded long but for translation time maybe it's 30 minutes. when the call ended each nation put out a statement. the mexican statement had a line that the american statement lacked. we'll put it up on the screen. the presidents also agreed for now not to speak publicly on this controversial topic. deleted apparently from the u.s. version. what does that tell us? but included in the mexican version. >> well, it's at least realism because we know that donald trump can't restrain himself in talking about this. he'll crow about this victory that he feels he's won. think about it. he's done real damage to the relationship with a very faithful ally for no very good reason. and you feel like, as you said, it's a lab experiment or a warm-up, because what's the big one? the big one is china.

and he feels -- he and i think the people around him, they feel like dhchina has played an utte he destructive game. >> i'll take the bait. is it possible that he's beating up on mexico, defenseless mexico so as to send a message to putin tomorrow? >> that would be a lovely thought. but the reason why i think that's not so is that in their minds, not in the minds of anybody who thinks about foreign policy seriously, china bad, russia good. so no, i don't think he's trying to send a message to putin. that's a separate conversation we can have about what he's going to say to putin. >> you come back and we'll have that. >> be happy to. >> james traub, i appreciate it very much. what about building this wall? does it make any sense financially or politically. joining me the author of "why walls won't work" dr. michael dear. i look at your cv and you're perfect for this question. bachelor of arts in geography.

town planning master of philosophy, a doctorate for regional science at my alma mater penn. can it physically be built? >> of course it can be built physically. if you are prepared to spend millions and billions of dollars, anything's possible. if you remember the commitment to the american moon shot so long ago. we spent a lot of money and we made it. we can spend an awful lot of money and we can build a second wall. i hasten to add we already have a wall on the land boundary. i always like to preface the fact that we've got a wall in existence and the existence of that wall gives us a lot of lessons that we can learn. >> i know from your work that the number of walls worldwide, this is not a one off, this conversation, but they've grown exponentially since september 11th, speak to that. >> it's a fashionable response to a lot of dilemmas facing many countries across the world today. the big problem is i think that it represents a failure in

diplomacy. if we can't come to an agreement say with mexico or with china, the first response is to build a wall or to build barriers of other people. we've also learned from history that's a short-term solution. you can build a wall and get short-term relief, but you can't rely on walls for long-term geopolitical solutions. >> wouldn't the israelis say, look, we, too, have walls and they've been effective at limiting terror? >> they've been effective at limits terror but they haven't solved the problem of the middle east. >> your response to the wall among other things is to say it's a short-term fix to a problem that, frankly, doesn't exist, at least exist the way that it had in the past and does nothing to bring us closer to the long-term solution that's necessary? >> basically correct, yes. it might stop people from killing each other in the short term, but it's not a step to a long-term solution, that's what i think. >> the president signed -- one other aspect of this, and it

doesn't relate to mexico, per se, but the president signed an executive order today that will limit all refugees, frankly, not allow any refugees for 120 days and maybe longer for syria. aren't walls an effective means of stemming the refugee crisis for certain european nations who otherwise would be overrun with the population they can't control? >> yes. they could be. unless you could just put in place a border which stops immigration from certain countries. i'm not saying these are not worthy solutions because buy some breathing time is probably a good idea in a lot of these circumstances. it's just that nobody should pretend that investing in a wall or an equivalent feature is in any way a long-term solution. >> michael dear, thank you so much for being here. >> you're welcome, thank you. >> keep tweeting me your thoughts @smerconish. if you don't know a lie when you see one, you are too stupid to be on @cnn. >> i am too stupid to be

on @cnn. i was trying to get to the bottom of the semantic game of media outlets some feeling comfortable in using the "l" word and others not doing so. can we do another one quickly? nope? okay. we'll do more tweet, i promise you. today president trump reinforced his belief that waterboarding works, but what about the guy who actually helped create and carry out enhanced interrogation methods after september 11th? stick around because you're about to meet him. >> would i feel strongly about waterboarding? as far as i'm concerned, we have to fight fire with fire. i'm not into it. i will tell you, though, it works.

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thanks for being here. this is a special edition of smerconish. president trump's first week. he reignited the debate about torture this week during his first interview with abc's david muir saying that it absolutely works. take a listen.

>> president obama said the u.s. does not torture. will you say that? >> well, i have a general who i have great respect for, general mattis, who said -- i was a little surprised who said he's not a believer in torture. i have spoken to others in intelligence and they are big believers in, as an example, waterboarding. >> you did tell me -- >> they say it does work. >> but two newly confirmed appointees who will be carrying out such policy, defense secretary james mattis and cia director mike pompeo, were both said to be blindsided by this. then at the pentagon the president said he would defer to secretary mattis. where do we stand with enhanced interrogation? my next guest literally wrote the book on enhanced interrogation. dr. james mitchell served in the u.s. air force and helped develop and administer the cia's post-9/11 enhanced interrogation

program. what is it that you know that general mattis doesn't? because he said all he needs is a six-pack and a pack of cigs. i'm paraphrasinparaphrasing, bu much. >> no, you're not paraphrasing by much. the question i think we should be asking ourselves is what would general mattis do? general mattis would not give up information that would get americans killed or derail our attack plans for a michelob and a winston. it's not going to happen. and it didn't happen with ksm either. ksm had several days of what the cia called tea and respectful conversation. and during that time all he did was rock and pray and chant and when we asked him -- when i myself asked him in a very neutral way about attacks in the united states, he told me soon you will know. and he meant wait around and i'm going to hit you.

>> this is a hypothetical. this is a philosophical subject for most. but not for you. khalid sheikh mohammed, the number one guy from al qaeda that we captured, you personally waterboarded him. did you get anything out of him of value? >> well, we did get stuff out of him of value. we got information out of him that allowed us to catch other people and ultimately through those other people disrupt that other second wave of attacks that was coming. ambali was already working on training folks to try planes into the tallest buildings in los angeles, and chicago. that plan was initially put off kilter by president bush, his attack, but ultimately they were getting that back on schedule. and without the i.t. program, they would have had a chance to pull that off. >> i read your book.

help me understand wherein lies the line. two excerpts. put it up on the screen. bruce, your colleague, poured the water out of a one-liter plastic bottle and i controlled the duration of the pours by standing at the top by abu zubaydaa hps head raising and lowering a black cloth to cover his face. when i lowered the cloth, bruce was to pour. i would watch the guard, count out the seconds. when i raise the cloth, bruce was to stop immediately. the legal guidance said we could pour water for 20 to 40 seconds, allow the person to breathe unimpeded for three to four breath, then lower the cloth and pour water for another 20 to 40 seconds and so on for 20 minutes. that is you describing a waterboarding in which you participated. now here's another. i watched the chief interrogator use a variety of physically coercive measures on al nashiri

that i believed were not approved techniques. they included the two stress positions discussed earlier, dousing him with cold water while using a stiff-bristled brush to scrub his ass and balls and then his mouth and blowing cigar smoke in his face until he became nauseous. apart from being on the list, why is one okay and the other crosses the line? >> well, i think it has to do with the adjudication of whether it's torture or not. it upsets me sometimes to hear the president use the word "torture" because torture is illegal. it's been illegal. and if what the justice department had authorized in 2002 was torture, then feinstein and mccain would not have had to pass a law in 2015 restricting their use. so it bothers me when people say that. and the difference is -- >> and you objected to this. and you were called the "p" word

by colleagues for your objection. would you say that was tortured, the stiff-bristled brush? >> some of the other things they did to him certainly crossed the hine. i thought stiff-bristled brush was out of line because of the way they were doing it. i don't think he suffered pain, any pain i don't think he suffered pain but humiliating thing that shouldn't have happen. threat with a gun. threat of eminent death violates u.s. law. >> thanks for coming back. >> thanks. >> tweets of the first. i think mr. president should try waterboarding on himself before he orders it. dr. the architect of the program made sure he was subjected to it

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they said would be happy to share responsibility to pay. not what the president said but they seemed ready to live with it. >> don't agree with kwur panel but would love to see them back to gauge trump's four year progress. >> good willing love to be here in four years to bring them to you. focused group of folks registered republican to vote for or against donald trump and wanted to take their temperature. >> watching and realizing what a sad state of the union we're headed to. >> i'm watching and what i'm taking away is divide has never been greater, at least in the modern era. 36 years i've been paying attention. evidence in the first and second segment and not much commonality between the two but it's vitally

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give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. that is the statue of liberty of course. unless you're from syria, iran, iraq, sudan, libya, yemen or somalia. this is "cnn tonight," i'm don lemon, president donald trump signing order for extreme vetting of immigrants and saying persecuted christians will be given priority and second time this week streets washington flooded with demonstrators,