this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. coming to you live in new york. we'll start by tackling all aspects is it american and will it work? i will talk to the head of the aclu and a great panel then we will broaden out to examine

donald trump's radical shift of american foreign policy. what does it mean when america walks away from the world? first, here's my take. donald trump's executive order suspending the entry of syrian refugees and of anyone from seven muslim countries is filled with requests for reports and information. the department of homeland security, the state department are asked to provide information on the numbers of foreign terrorists and issue progress reports on the policy with more data within one and three months. let me save the government some money and offer the data right now. alex of the cato institute, a conservative think tank has tallied the number of americans killed by citizens of the seven countries banned from 1975 to 2015. they are as followed. from iraq, 0. from iran, 0. from syria, 0. from yemen, 0.

from libya, 0. from somalia, 0 and from sudan, 0. incident that number from saudi arabia is 2,369. from egypt it's 162. why certain countries are on or off this list is truly mysterious. some newspapers have noted that none of the muslim majority countries have a trump hotel, building or office are on the list. including 9/11, the chance of an american being killed by foreign terrorists on u.s. soil over that 41 year period is 1 in 3.6 million per year. been killed by a refugee the chances are 1 in 3.64 billion per year. there's no rational basis for the policy.

i suppose what's explained so much of donald trump's political career, the exploitation of fear. from the birther campaign to the talk of mexican rapist, trump has already trafficked in fear mongering. this time to stoke those fears, he chose to punish ordinary men, women and children who are fleeing terrorism and violence. these people are the road kill of trump. something else is being destroyed along with it, the image, reputation and good will of the united states as the beacon of the world. as someone noted over the past few days, donald trump seems to want to turn off that lamp on the statue of liberty. let's get started.

let's get straight to the legal challenge to president trump's executive order on immigration. i'm joined by anthony ramero. his organization has been at the tip of the spear fighting against the president's ban. welcome. >> hi. how are you? >> where do we stand? this is like a movie. the drama is you filed and the court upheld, put a stay order in place on the ban. >> yesterday the court ruled about 8:00 p.m. in the evening to preserve the status quo. to prohibit the government from deporting or putting individuals back on planes from countries from whence they came. it's a preliminary stay. she wants to engage the merits of our injunction. we're ordering the executive order is unconstitutional and

unlawful. >> parse that out for me. you're saying it's unconstitutional and unlawful, why? >> the executive order does a couple of things. it prohibits the entry of syrian refugees. it bans the entry of individuals from seven countries. that includes green card holders. that includes individual who is have lawful visas. it carves out exception for minority religion. taken together, the four components, we think violate the due process protections of the constitution, the equal protection clauses of the constitution, violates centrfed statues and our international treaties and conventions and violates the first amendment. it prohibits the government from either favoring or discriminating against any one particular religion.

here you have mr. trump saying we're going to exclude individuals from predominantly muslim countries and he carves out exceptions for minority religions. the executive order is a smoking gun that violates the first amendment. >> what do you think is likely to happen here? she's going to -- she wants to hear the full argument and she will rule. if she rules in your favor, what recourse does the trump administration have? >> they could appeal it. i think ultimately this will be case that will be broached before the u.s. supreme court. what underscores is our courts serve as a check and balance on the power of the executive. this effort is not just un-american and wrong headed, we think it's also something that will go down in history as one of the worst moments for american foreign policy and american immigration policy. our nation is nation of immigrants. we have welcomed refugees to our shores. refugees are among the most vulnerable individuals and the idea we should shut them out

because of the fear mongering that mr. trump is engaged in, we find troubling. >> you mentions it violates international treaties. it violates the geneva treaty. we got a report that the chancellor of germany had to teach the president of the united states the geneva convention and the fact to which we are a signatory requires you take in some refugees. >> it's great she's teaching him but he may not be the best pu l pupil. within 24 hours he's been rebuke b ed by a federal judge and stayed the implementation of the executive order nationwide. it will lay out for the trump administration the need to be much more thoughtful. this executive order, in addition to be unconstitutional, the way in which they went about it was just amateur night at the

apollo. they had not fully briefed their own custom and border patrol agents. they had not briefed the embassy, business leaders. you had individuals who got on airplanes thinking they had a valid visa to sfenter the u.s. d were turned away at the airports. it was the messiness in which they did this will play out over time. >> fascinating. stay with us. when we come back i'll bring the rest of my panel to further discuss donald trump's immigration ban. we'll be back. blng when heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums smoothies. it starts dissolving the instant it touches your tongue. and neutralizes stomach acid at the source. ♪ tum -tum -tum -tum smoothies! only from tums but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing. and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means

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(other languages spoken) look abbot, i got it. it's a miracle. ♪ often furious to president trump's travel immigration ban. americans stormed the country's major airports to protest.

taxi drivers went on strike and across the world there was reaction. canada's prime minister tweeted to those fleeing persecution, terror and war, canadians will welcome you regardless of your faith. diversity is our strength. welcome to canada. many countries considered fighting back against trump by instituting their own ban against u.s. citizens. let me bring in a terrific panel. david milliban is the president and ceo of international rescue committee. jonathan turley is a constitutional law scholar. she's worked in the middle east,

italy and the united states and anthony romero is back with us. david, you have dealt with policy at the highest levels. you're a foreign minister in the british cabinet. just the execution of this policy look to you and where do you think the trump administration goes from here? >> hasty process always produce harmful policy. the confusion of the immigration issue that's effecting 100 google employees and british mps, green card holders is being confused with the policy on refugees. 60,000 refugees, we think, around the world have passed the extensive vetting system for anyone wanting to enter. the toughest way to get to the u.s. is a refugee. they are left in limbo. they will be knocking on the doors of embassies saying where do i stand. >> expand. the toughest way to get into the

u.s. is to apply to be a refugee. it's a two to three years process. >> they have 12 to 18 months of extensive interviews and study 12 to 15 government departments scrutinize every aspect of your become ground. it's very tough to get here as a refugee. that's why the security record of refugees, one reason, is so strong and so safe. they become productive and patriotic citizens. in the context of a 25 million global refugee crisis, the u.s. refugee resettlement contribution is relatively small. it was 100,000 proposed. president trump tried to take that down to 50,000. there's already 60,000 people in the pipeline who have been through this process and now left in limbo. i think that's what happens when a policy is turned from a campaign slogan into an executive order without the kind of interagency discussion on process, expert input that's so important. >> what would you do? >> the obvious thing to do is to allow the existing system to

remain in place while the reviews take place. remember, the only people celebrating today are extremists around the world who want to tell muslims around the world that america is shutting their doors to them. the only people celebrating this propaganda gift are isis and al qaeda for this plays into their core narrative of a clash of civilization. >> anthony, i assume you're going to keep going. it will get to the supreme court. is it possible that you'd be able to get a real decision out of a 4-4 court? >> i think so. i'm not sure how jonathan thinks. >> jonathan, what do you think in. >> i have a great deal of respect for anthony romero and the aclu. on this one it pains me to say i would have to bet against them. i don't think that the stay was necessarily a rebuke of the

administration. she froze the action of the party fls this case because she believed she believed there would the damage unless she did so. the law does favor president trump in this regard. i don't like this order. i think it's a terrible mistake. president obama was telling the court that courts shouldn't be second guessing the decisions based on national security or immigration from the president. in 1882, you had the really infamous chinese exclusion act that was upheld and you have things like section 1182 of the federal law that gives sweeping authority to the president to withhold either individual aliens or groups of aliens. all of that works to the advantage of president trump. what is not going to happen, i don't think, i do not believe a

federal court will view this as a muslim ban. i don't think the court can. regardless of what the court may think of president trump's motivati motivation, the fact other muslim countries is not included will move that off the table. what's going to be left is whether the president has this type of authority. courts have said that he does. >> a conservative think tank makes the point whether or not it's constitutional, the current law of the land is the 1965 act which congress passed that says you cannot excludes people on the basis of national origin. >> exactly. with all do respect, jonathan, i think this is a case of first impression. it's also true there are moments in which the executive branch just goes a step too far. frankly, this is a muslim ban. when he's targeting seven countries in particular and the most damming language in the executive order is the carve

out, the exception for minority religions and the statements of president trump saying he wants to favor christians. we say bring it on. we think we have a very good chance of standing this up in court. i think ultimately the merits will be decided by our federal court system and even the supreme court that's been predominantly conservative has served as an important rebuke to the bush administration. we think this will be a time when the courts play an essential bull work in the checks and balance function. >> i think part of the -- >> go ahead jonathan. >> part of the problem is president obama required secondary reviews of majority muslim nations. presidents have done this for a long time. jimmy carter used his power to essentially deport thousands of iranian students. it's going to be a long road to hoe for the aclu. >> all right. we'll have to leave it right there. when we come back, i'll ask

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we are back. i know you grew up in israel, worked in egypt and italy and now in the united states. what do you make of this and by the way what happens to you? you're in rome. are you going to come back? >> well, if they will allow me. if they will not deport me. obviously i'm a european muslim. there could be a religious test. you and i will be on that list. be careful if you leave, actually. it's not only ordinary muslim. i want to tell jonathan, any law that is divorce from justice, it's not law. this is sanctions, government sanctions, religious persecution and it will not keep america safe. it's not about national security. this is about white iss

supremacists. it's clear. he mentioned 9/11 three times. none of the countries had citizens involved in 9/11. it's not really about national security. he's using immigrant, refugees as a human shield to advance his, i would say, clash of civilization, white supremacists agenda. when he talks about voter fraud, he's talking about people like you fareed and other brown people that arrived legally and voted. this is a guy that called president obama non-american or he wasn't born there. while he's doing this, it's using refugees and whatever he's using as a distraction. yesterday he approved, he forced an important general john dunport to resign and replaced

him with a white supremacits guy who tell all of us journalist to shut up. there's not one serious analyst that can prove that. >> can i respond? >> let me just ask you, what is the reaction in italy? i understand that's how you feel and you express it passionately. what are you hearing in italy about this? >> not only in italy, all over europe. look, the fact, the most baffling thing and the most painful thing, as you mention i was born in israel and he mentioned and he signed that order on the holocaust memorial day. we have americans has a shameful history of rejecting and sending back jewish refugee and immigrant who came to escape word war ii. they were sent back on the same

basis that we have a muslim ban and they were killed. we are acting more or less the same, oppressive mind set and inhumane, inconstitutional. i would say un-american. i covered the middle east for a long time. i was a reporter everywhere. visiting beirut. i worked in egypt, iraq. every war torn country. when i heard that one of the guys that was stopped yesterday at jfk was a guy that helped american troops. he was an interpreter, the message we're sending by sending back these people who helped america win the war on terror and stood up and stands up every day fight isis and al qaeda, we're handing a victory to all these extremist groups because most muslims -- that's why we have less foreign fighters, most

muslims in america feel they are first and foremost american. this executive order would have not prevented 9/11, orlando, san bernardino or even paris attacks. paris attacks and many european attacks happen because european citizens carried them not refugees or immigrants. >> david, you visited iraq. one of the things i'm struck by here if our goal is to defeat isis, the country that's fighting isis most fiercely is iraq and the iraqi government. iraq is on this list. it's weird that iraqi soldiers who are fighting isis and risking their lives couldn't even come and visit this country to go to disney land. >> there's many perversities in this executive order. my organization isn't just

international humanitarian. we settle people in the u.s. a quarter of the people we're due to resettle are those on special immigrant visas because they have helped american forces. today, outside of mosul there are american forces supporting the iraqi troops and planning the retack of mosul from isis. we're there on the ground looking after civilians. there's tight intertwining parts of this coalition. they are asking am i safe working with you. even the man yesterday who tried to help, ten years working for the u.s., two assassination attempts on him and his family. these people are literally risking their lives and being told we're not going to be welcome here. that's a terrible message. >> okay. jonathan, you wanted to say shotgun about this issue. you're saying that the president has legal authority. you're not approving of his actions.

>> right. putting the passions aside, there's plenty of reasons to object to this order on policy humanitarian ground. it's not necessary to pretend it's something it's not or suggest our host or the earlier speaker would not be allowed in the country. i see no evidence to suggest that would be true. if you want to oppose this, you need to oppose this for what it is. what it is not currently a muslim ban. that's not how the court will frame it. i don't see how a court can do that. in terms of tyranny, we don't have a single branch government here. we have three branches. they are all heard on these subjects. i don't believe that 47% of the united states are white supremacists. i think if we're going to reachfully type of resolution, we have got to stop calling each other names and pretend we're

worse than we are. there are people on the other side who support this that are not white supremacists. i think they are wrong to support it. the way to convince them is not suggest they are white supremacists or this is muslim ban. it is not. >> it is a muslim ban. it's outrageous. it's baffling that you try to normalize it or defend it or justify it. you're betraying american values. this is outrageous. it's not about passion. it's about fact. read the executive order. it talks clearly about muslims and about -- >> you're making my point. >> if you're a shiaa. i'm not making your point. read my lips and hear what i'm saying. you are trying to justify something that not only courts in the past actually repealed but they are not considered actually americans.

if you understand what america stands for, you're telling that interpreter that he does not belong there because of his religion. read the executive order very well and then try to explain to your part of the aisle or your political group that when you have michael flynn, general flynn who says islam is a political ideology, when you have banning saying what he's saying, you're really trying to tell me and the audience that this is not about political religious persecution. give me a break. >> all right. i want to get anthony, you think it is a muslim ban. >> it will be broached. jonathan, the judge will decide. i think you're wrong. we'll see at the end of the day. >> in any event, david, you think the important thing to remember is you got to win this not just legally but politically. >> let me make the broader point. yes this is nation of laws but

it's also a nation of policy. we have a policy that's untenable. you can see that at airports. you will see that at embassies. i think the question for americans is not just about them, the refugees, it's about us. who are we as americans and the western world? what are we willing to stand for? that's why this issue goes to the issue of core. it's important to do the right thing in this area but also the smart thing. >> how would you try to win the political argument? >> by not saying it's right to help refugees. it's also practical. there's a vetting system that does work. immigration into america is a success story. it's smart to be a country that welcomes people of different faiths because that's the way we win the big arguments over the next decades about what kind of world we want to live in. >> do you think that these kind of issues, these broader political issues, ideological issues, do they play.

when the supreme court hears this, do you think they will think about this question is this a betrayal of american ideals rather than the liberalism of the law. >> there were over 500 people who amassed at the courthouse in less than half an hour. our judges live in our communities. they talk to their neighbors. they are influenced by the people power and the context around them. ultimately, the massive outpouring of support for immigrants and refugees at airport, at the courthouse, all across this country, unorganized spontaneously sets the ground work for other action. >> all right. we're going to have to leave it there. absolutely fascinating conversation. it will be fascinating next few weeks and months. next, remember donald trump has been president for nine days. he's already radically changed america's relation with the rest of the world. we'll take a look at the broader changes when we come back.

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let's get right into this new world order with today easter ri' east's terrific panel. conrad black is in toronto today. he was a media mogul. he's now a columnist and commentator. mexico and the united states had very bad relations. the united states milltarial intervened many times. mexico had a very anti-american attitude and kind of fiery revolutionary spirit. all that changed over the last 20 years and in fact this was one of the great success stories of american foreign policy. a mexico that's pro-american, become a valuable ally.

is all that likely to change. what is the mood in mexico today after the events of the last couple of days. >> well, for those of us who believe that this change in mexican attitude and american attitude also from the late '80s on wa onward was a positive thing. what's happened the last few days is this could leadtous us this revival or rebirth of anti-american in mexico. it came from real historical facts but now with what trump has been doing, i'm afraid that this sentiment will overtake any government whether it's the mexican president or the next one in 2018. it's very difficult to continue to be friends with the united states when the president of the

united states pretty much humiliates you in public on twitter. >> do you think mexico will retaliate? mexico is the second largest market for american exports. >> well, mexico has a lot of negotiating chips in this matter. it also has measures we would take in other areas. for example, the drugs that come through mexico from south america or the drugs that are produced here in mexico all go to the united states. this is not our problem. we have been cooperating with the united states for many years on these issues because they've asked us to and because we have a friendly, trustful relationship. if that relationship disappears, the reasons for cooperation also disappear. >> conrad black let me ask you about the retaliation that donald trump has threatened which is a 20% tariff.

i was always taught by conservative commentators that tariffs are eventually passed on to the consumer. this could not be a tax that would be paid by mexico. it would be paid by companies that are selling mexican goods in the united states but they would pass that cost on to the consumer. in other words, the american consumer would pay for this for trump's foreign policy. am i missing something? >> well, i think we'd want to know more about -- you really need to be trade wonk to judge these things. in principle, i agree with what you just said. it was always clear during the campaign that mr. trump in saying he would build the wall and intended mexico would pay for it that he expected to extract that payment by reducing the trade imbalance between the two countries. there are less ham handed ways of doing that than straight

imposition of increased tariff like this. i assume and i hope and i share the wishes that were expressed that relations can be put back together. >> do you celebrate this talk of tariffs and potential trade wars. it's happening with mexico and china. you've been a free trader. you supported bryan when he negotiated nafta. are you comfortable with this new world we're going into? >> i don't think we're going into such a world. i think your president has stated clearly he's in favor of trade. he's not particularly a protectionist but has reservations about some trade agreements he feels are one sided or incompetently negotiated from the american side. >> anne, let me ask you about, but theresa may and donald

trump, are they ideological soul mates. trump attacks globalism every chance he gets and may wants globalism. >> you just hinted at one of the really profound problems we have here which is that theresa may's idea of global britain, which is something she's come to over a number of months looking for a new role clashes fundamentally with everything that trump has said since he's taken office. in his speech, he was pretty clear, his speech at the inauguration, he was clear about his protectionism. he said hire american and buy american. that doesn't sound like somebody in favor of free trade of any kind whether it's free trade or foreign trade involving other countries. she's come to the yiet wiunited with a message she would like to sell, which is britain and the

u.s. should go ahead and promote free trade and promote an idea of a rules based global order. trump has said clearly he doesn't believe in any of that anymore and he's willing to throw much of it overboard. as for the rest of europe, this is a fundamental stumbling block. that's how the system, the system of rules based international world order, that's made them prosperous. that's made them safety and they would like to continue it. this seems to be in direct conflict with what trump says he wants. >> when when he come back i'll ask what he makes of the ban on many muslim majority countries and the policy of extreme vetting, when we come back. my business was built with passion... but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing. and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means

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and we are back.

talk about this ban on several muslim majority countries. kind of an odd collection. it includes iraq which is supposedly an ally of the united states and where many people in iraq who work for the american government and the american occupation but it's not include saudi arabia where the majority of the hijackers for the terrorists for 9/11 originated. what do you make of it and what do you think the effect will be in the muslim middle east? >> it's very toxic. it's very poisonous. if trump does act on his promises in terms of lumping islams and muslims with this radical islamism, preventing muslims from several countries entering the united states. delivering syria on a silver platter to putin. this would inflame anti-american

sentiments throughout the world. not just in the muslim world. anger u.s. allies and of course it would unleash tremendous anti-american storms in the middle east. >> conrad, let me ask you about this issue. i'm fixated on the iraq war. the united states went into iraq and got tens of thousands of people to work and ally with the united states. i remember talking to you about prooefrs previous occasions that you thought it was dishonorable for the united states to not have done more for the south vietn vietnamese. would that situation be comparable. there's n there's thousands of iraqs that worked for the united states and say you will be rewarded by having a blanket ban that you couldn't come and visit this

country that you worked for and supported at great personal peril? >> yes. i think the american attitude to refugees has been ungenerous and unsu unsuitable. i cannot blame the government of that country, this administration or any others to the extent they wish to take the reasonableab precautions they c. you have to handle this with more diplomacy that's been handled in the first week of this administration. it's been a bumpy week but i think things will get better. >> i doubt it very much. i fear that things are going to get much worse. remember, donald trump traffics in a clash of civilizations. he talks about islam hates us

all americans. he lumps radical islamism and isis with islams and muslims. he has this bipolar attitude toward the muslim world. i fear if he keeps acting the way he does this trump administration might speed up the end of america's moment in the middle east and this violates american values. you're talking about american values lumping all refugees with terrorists. imagine the idea itself. it does not look good. i also fear there are many contradictions and big holes in trump's pronouncements on the middle east and muslim world. he wants the defeat isis yet he lumps islams and muslims with

radical islamism. it looks very bad from where i am sitting here in europe and the middle east as well. >> the trump-putin connection. you spend a lot of time in eastern europe. you have a house in poland. how do polls, for example, how much are they worried that in hoping for some kind of deal between trump and putin, poland and its security, you crane and its security, the baltic states and its security will be sacrificed? >> i think there's a palable fear of exactly what you've just described. the expression that people are using is will there be a flunew yelti. will putin convince trump to di vid t vied the world into spears of influence that impose his

influence on one part of it and whatever remains of democracy or western civilization. people are very worried about it. this is part of the world you mentioned allies. poland, the baltic state, much of central europe, even georgia, these are countries that contributed soldiers and troops to u.s. missions in the past that feel much themselves to be part of nato. they have been supporters of american foreign policy for 25 years. they've supported democratic and american presidents. they will feel incredibly betrayed and left alone if they're cut out of some new division or some new redrawing of borders in europe. >> we're going to have to leave it at that. we'll have many opportunities, i think, to discuss this new foreign policy going forward.

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being part of my program this week. i'll see you next week. i'm brian stelter. it's sometime for "reliable sources." this is our look behind the media world works, how the news gets made. today how the travel ban is effecting reporters. stories about just how bad it can get when leaders really crack down on the media. we'll go live to moscow about that. an editor at large from breitbart news is here. tensions are high and getting higher. while there were lots of photo ops this week, there was a lot of basaccess to the president.