by 2050, the american muslim population will climb from 3.3 million to 8.1 million people or 2.1% of the population. interestingly, about as many americans convert to islam every year as current muslims leave the islamic faith in america. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i'll see you next week. i'm brian stelter. it's time for reliable sources. this is our weekly look at the story behind the story. how the media works, how the news gets made. we have a packed show for you. michael wolf says the media keeps losing to president trump. he'll explain why. former presidential candidate emerging as one of trump's fiercest critics calling media attacks from the white house aauthoritarian like. later, my essay about

sloppiness and why it matters. first, does the age of alternative facts demand an alternative interviewing style? the made up bowling green massacre has some flooding my e-mail box saying trump aides like kellyanne conway should not be on tv at all. she said she misspoke one word. watch the full clip here. see if you agree. >> i bet there was very little coverage. i bet it's brand new information to people that be obama had a six-month ban on the iraqi refugee program after two iraqis came here and radicalized and were the masterminds behind the bowling green massacre. i know that because it didn't get covered. >> the press didn't cover this because it didn't happen. what did chris matthews say next? >> let's talk about the major strategic of this administration overseas and here as well.

to eradicate radical islam terrorism. how does that fit with the executive order? >> a big missed opportunity not following up on that alleged, made up bowling green massacre. instead moving on. that shows the challenge of both a live or in that case a taped interview with an administration official. misinformation is coming directly from the president's mouth. >> as the president, you say, for example, there are three million illegal aliens who voted and then you don't have the data to back it up. some people will say that's irresponsible for a president to say that. is there any validity? >> many people have said i'm right. >> you have to have data backed up. >> this is birtherism all over again. he said millioany people agreed. that's not true. many have not supported the

claim. we'll see how bill o'reilly handled the claim. in the meantime, with a pattern of misleading statements from the white house and the promotion of alternative facts, do television networks have to think twice about how and whether they interview trump aides. good morning. thanks for being here. >> good morning. >> do you think the networks have to rethink how the aides and officials are interviewed? >> absolutely. i've been a spokesperson on various campaigns. what we see is pattern. these are not a series -- this is not isolated incidents. it's a pattern of behavior. take kellyanne ta talking about.

she said trump doesn't do personal insults. this is pattern of behavior. the number of visas impacted. all of these things taken collectively undermine our democracy. as someone who held this kind of position, while people exaggerate and some spin involved, these are out and out lies. >> do you agree? live television is hard, even taped interviews are hard. i think matthews needed to follow up in that case and needed to correct the record. do we need to give some leeway here. are all the people saying getting her off tv, are they wrong? >> they are wrong. there's no part of our job ta doing it responsibly that involves shutting out people who are an important pipeline to the center of power in america. that's not what we do. we're not here to pick and choose who is worthy of being heard and who is not. if this is the source of information that you'll get,

evening if it's fake our false or spined, you have to adapt to that. it's very hard. i interview people for a living, as do you and to tear back the curtain a bit, there's team of people. you have fact checkers who are supposed to prepare it. you have ten minutes and a bunch of information that you want to go through. what are they likely to say. what facts do they know. they can slip through but you're supposed to really be on your game. i think this administration is going to be a particular challenge. you really got to have your facts in order because something outrageous like the bowling green massacre is going to pop up. if you're not ready for the possibility of something like that, it can get past you as that particular one got past chris matthews. >> you have to be nimble. you have to be urgent, immediate. i think if we were to say that chris matthews missed that opportunity that the media, in this case, is adjusting and

handled that fairly well. >> maybe even overcorrected and overreacted? >> i don't know. i felt like cnn, jeff just walked the viewers not just that incorrect fact but the other inaccuracies in that statement. what actually happened and did so in a very forthright way, in a non-snarky way. the one thing i'm concerned about as these things keep popping up is proportionalty. she makes this era, twitter exploded. how does she apologize? not very eloquently. >> she said she misspoke, didn't apologize. >> she tried to correct the record. at the same time you have major policy changes going on in the united states. you have questions about this immigration executive order. you have some damage to our relations with long time allies and you don't want to become so consumed with her wording in this particular missed

opportunity that you kind of lose the wider aperture on this administration. >> it's not whether do interview these aides and what questions to ask. >> there were reports the trump administration has iced out cnn. some back story, the last two editions of cnn with jake tapper administration officials have declined to come on the program. this morning vice president pence was on the other four big sunday morning shows, not on cnn. maybe he was avoiding tapper because he had a tough interview with him last time on. we see the white house here picking and choosing what outlets to have administration officials on. what do you make of that? is it a mistake for this white house to be icing out any network? >> i think it's absolutely a mistake to do so. i say that again as someone who was a spokesperson because it undermines, first of all, it undermines our democracy because the media is an integral part of

democracy. it educates the public. from that perspective to attack the media and blatantly say i'm not going to have certain networks have access, i think it hurts them politically because it's an obvious the reasoning behind it is rather obvious. it's a form of punishment. i think what the trump administration is trying to do and why i keep coming back to this undermining of democracy is they are trying to position the administration a sole voice. as the only voice of accurate information. by saying that the new york times is fake news, by undermining these institutions, they are trying to position the administration as the only voice of honest information. that's dangerous. we see that in authoritarian n countrie countries. there's a connection between policy and what kellyanne and

other members putting out these falsehoods. >> even if she was just misspeaking, she was causing people to be afraid. one more point about cnn. she was offered the state of the union, cnn declined to have her on the network today. i thought that was very notable. doesn't mean she won't be on in the coming days. it's not a totally freeze out of cnn but it does seem a form of punishment, an attempt by the white house to punish news outlets that does not favor. if the goal is to starve cnn of ratings, i can tell you it's not working. let's look at snl last night. we got to watch sean spicer. let's watch this clip and talk about it. >> okay. we'll do a couple questions. go. glenn, new york times. boo, go ahead. >> yeah, i wanted to ask about travel ban on muslims. >> it's not a ban. >> i'm sorry. >> it's not ban. the travel ban is not a ban which makes it not a ban.

>> you cjust called it a ban. >> i'm using your words. you said ban. you said been. i'm saying it back. >> the president tweeted and i quote, if the ban were announced with a one week notice. >> exactly. you just said that. he's quoting you. it's your words. he's using your words when you used the words and he uses them back, it's circular using of the word and that's from you. >> what? >> seriously, glen, are you going to start with this right out of the gate, glen? what do you want me to take my nuts out so you can get a better kick at them? >> you had to have known i would ask that question. >> who here, by a show of hands, who here hates glen? right, everybody. one to three, infinity. let the record show that everyone raised their hands because everybody hates glen. print that. that's your story. >> the d.c. press corps loves

glen. there's a serious point that spicer is becoming a punch line. is there a credibility problem for this white house? >> there was a very rocky start. i do think that sean spicer has relationships that pre-date this particular role that might be a little bit of a cushion. i think he recognized very quickly, very early on that he had some mending of relationships to do. i think it's worrisome. i don't think the credibility is entirely shattered or has cratered, no. i do think melissa mccarthy should get an emmy. >> i think she'll probably be back on snl. stick around. i heard from spicer this morning. i'll share what he told me later this hour. after the break, we're talking about a brand new poll from cnn orc about the media's view of covering trump. a to media critic on why the press keeps getting it wrong and

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taking a look at some of the magazine covers from the past week, really striking images including one from the new yorker protesting the travel ban with this image. there's nothing compared to germany showing trump beheading the statue of liberty saying he's an extremist like an isis

fighter. the economist saying he's like an insurgent. trump continues to denounce the press as fake news and immedime types look at how to cover him. you wrote in your most recent column that the media keeps losing to donald trump. how so? is it a trap? >> i think it is. i think we're in this unusual position of what we think is covering donald trump turns out to be what we think is debunking trump turns touts out to be supporting. >> when we fact check him, it supports him? >> it does. he seems to be provoking an overreaction. we go into a fit of apoplexy.

what we set up as we try to go after his credibility, our credibility becomes equally a problem. >> i've heard other people make this argument that there's hysteria from the national news media. i don't see individual journalists acting hysterical but maybe the abundance of coverage comes across that way. >> that's not true. i think individual journalists are having a nervous breakdown. good example, the new yorker, the new yorker has 100 years had one style of journalism, very detailed, very close reporting. since the election, the editor of the new yorker has gone off in fits of blovuation never seen in the new yorker before. no facts. nobody in this new administration and yet the world is coming to an end in his view.

>> come on the program, debate michael wolf. let me channel him for a moment. he said to me this is an emergency. journalists have to act differently. sounds like you just disagree with that. >> totally. what is the emergency other than the fact that he is personally offended and upset and worried? >> you also made the point about reporting. you've been doing reports on this administration, interviewing kellyanne conway. what did you take away? >> i think that one of the things about this new circumstance and this new administration is you got to get in. you got to meet these people. you have to talk to these people. you have to see what's going on. >> are you just sucking up to get access to the white house? >> if i'm sucking up a bit. i am the only person, it would seem, who is actually having this conversation and my conversations with these people

then get retailed throughout the media chain. >> your columns do get a lot of pick up, that's true. is it appropriate to be writing these pieces that are attempting to go a little easy on them in order to gain access? >> i don't think they are -- i don't know what that "going easy on them" means. i'm going to them and saying what do you think? what do you believe? tell me. this is what we want know. what's going on here. >> it's valuable to have those quote, to have that information. >> this is what we have done in every other administration. this is the time, through the transition in these first several weeks in which the media is in all past instances, all past administrations is asking should -- has asked the questions which i'm now trying to ask. who are you? what do you stand for? what are you going to do? >> talking about this war with the media, that's what trump calls it. you seem to think the media is

at war with trump. is that fair? >> absolutely. i don't think there would be anybody who would credibly disagree. >> many say this is not war against trump. >> you can follow them on twitter where they are having a very personal war with donald trump. >> or a war against lying and falsehoo falsehoods. >> at the center of this is this new grail that we have. how are we going to take this guy down? >> let's put part on screen. the media strategy is to show trump as a crazy sociopath. the trump strategy is to show the media are pricks and out of touch. tell me about that particular

issue. do you feel that my style is wrong or my substance is wrong trying to fact check the president? >> i mean this with truly no disrespect, but i think you can border on being sort of quite a ridiculous figure. it's not a good look to repeatedly and self-righteously defend your own self-interest. the media should not be the story. every week in this religious sense you make it the story. we are not the story. >> there's room for one hour on cnn for this? >> i love your show. i wish you wouldn't turn to the camera and lecture america about the virtues of the media and every one trying to attack it. the media will be fine. >> the media doesn't need defending? >> the media doesn't immedianee

defending by the media. the new york times front page looks like it's 1938 in germany every day. >> no it does not. give me a break. >> the new yorker has left all of its standards behind and now become an opinion vehicle constantly. >> you either think this is an unusual presidency or you don't. isn't that the divide. you either think this is a highly unusual and fact free world or you don't? >> i think all new presidencies are unusual. i think this is unusual and why i'm like, all of us, spending every day on it. there's an interesting distinction to make. many people are not making it. we spend time on this story because it's so interesting.

>> true. >> everybody else is saying we spend time on this story because it's so appalling. where is the reality there? the truth is we really like this. we really want to be on it. we're really -- it's a kind of golden media age right now. >> that we can agree on for sure. good to see you. thank you for being here. up next, from interesting to maybe someone who is appalled. a different perfective. he ran against trump. hear what he is saying this weekend, right after the break. encouragement and milk. with 8 grams of natural protein, and 8 other nutrients to provide balanced nutrition. moms know kids grow strong when they milk life. afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose.

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tadirectv now. stream all your entertainment! anywhere! anytime! can we lose the 'all'. there's no cbs and we don't have a ton of sports. anywhere, any... let's lose the 'anywhere, anytime' too. you can't download on-the-go, there's no dvr, yada yada yada. stream some stuff! somewhere! sometimes! you totally nailed that buddy. simple. don't let directv now limit your entertainment. only xfinity gives you more to stream to any screen. welcome back. president trump's response to a federal judge blocking his travel ban order was to call it outrageous, ridiculous and to call the george w. bush

appointee a so-called judge. evan says this language is a threat to the republic. he's a former cia operative who mounted a long shot independent bid for president last year. now he's emerging as a media darling, a favorite of cable news bookers. maybe because he's going further than most republicans are, calling out trump. he's now the co-founder of a group called stand up republic. he joins me from washington. good to see you. >> thanks for having me. >> you're saying trump is an authoritarian and it's time for everyone to accept that. how so? defend that claim. >> they routinely attack check ons their power and sources of information that threaten to hold them accountable. donald trump does exactly that. he scapegoats different races and religious groups for the challenges that some people in our country are facing, the real challenges. there's a number of signs that he is. with regard to this executive

order, he's a attacking the judge or the judicial branch that is trying -- that is restraining his policy. that's a problem. we depend in our country on the separation of powers between three co-equal branches of government that check each other and make sure our rights are protected. when you have one branch trying to undermine the legitimacy of another, that's a big problem. >> he's not sending his thugs to the federal courthouse though. >> he's not. it doesn't take that. we'll see where this goes. to suggest that another branch is ill legitimate or so so-called judge. it's not just anyone saying this. this is the president of the united states of america. this is perhaps a small thing but this is where it begins and donald trump has a history of attacking the judicial branch and suggesting he doesn't support or agree with its independence and that's a problem. that's something we all need to

watch very carefully and oppose. >> i was looking to see if the president has tweeted this morning. so far he hasn't. every day he's weighed in on twitter and in some cases about this judge this weekend. so far nothing from the president. i'm curious to dig down deeper on this issue of authoritarianism. it's on the cover this week. it's starting to be talked about on television and print. do you think the press is coming late to this issue, this concern. >> i don't know they are coming late. i wish there would have been more coverage of his tendencies during the election. i tried to hold back in alling him an authoritarian until he was elected and started governing like an authoritarian. that's what i've seen in the past two weeks. now it's time to acknowledge that and the atlantic has published a piece online by david from that i recommend all americans read.

we need to educate ourselves about what this looks like and what it means for our basic rights and our system of government. >> some of the things trump has said about the press, calling the press fake news. it is troubling. michael wolf would say you're being hystericalhysterical. how do you persuade people this is a different issue? >> i know it's difficult for people who haven't livered under authoritarian regimes to identify them. this is part of the problem all countries face when an authoritarian per sursues power. ive i've had the benefit of living with it overseas. i see it from a mile away. i'm deeply concerned about it. i'm doing what i think is important for us, for our system of government and the protection of our basic rights. we need to make sure our president respects our system of government, will respect the

powers that are vested by the constitution in the legislative branch and the judiciary. that's not something we can compromise on. >> thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> this is the journalistic story of a lifetime. why is it that one of politico's top columnist, one of the top political columnists in the country is suddenly retiring. i'll ask him right after this. not back. it's looking up not down. it's feeling up thinking up living up. it's being in motion... in body in spirit in the now. boost. it's not just nutrition. it's intelligent nutrition. with 26 vitamins and minerals and 10 grams of protein. all in 3 delicious flavors. it's choosing to go in one direction... up. boost. be up for it.

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♪ ♪ brand new polling data he's at 44% in our latest poll. there's new data out this morning finds that 42% think the coverage of his presidency has opinion too critical. 36% say the treatment has been fair while 22% say it's not been critical enough. if you add up people who say it's fair and people who say it

hasn't been critical enough, you get it up to 58%. that's roughly the number that disapprove of trump. the country's deep divide translates to a deep divide of the news coverage. roger, great to see you. >> great to see you. >> you're retiring at a pivotal moment. you said we're told that truth no longer matter, but it does. who do you you think journalists need to defend the truth? >> it needs to defend the truth as it should have been doing from the beginning which is every day. we're not here to give politicians a break. we're here to review and comment upon when need be the actions of politicians. give trump a free ride and he

will take that ride all the way to re-election and beyond. here's a man who has never done a day of public service, whose first actions were to insult mexicans, to insult muslim, to insult jews and on and on. are we supposed to pretend this is an ordinary president and the times are ordinary. they're not. >> that sure is the tension. some of what you're saying makes me wonder is it our job to stop trump. is that what you're saying? >> our job to -- i'm sorry? >> do you think it's the job of journalists to be stopping the president? is that what you're saying? >> i donts mean they ought to hit him over the head with a bottle. they ought to do what some of them are now doing which is checking the truth.

dividing the truth from fiction. pointing out how ridiculous some of his, almost all of his statements are. overall, his personality is just that of a big baby. >> you would have been saying the coverage is not tough enough, not critical enough. >> i don't think it has been. i think it's getting there if we don't grow bored. it's only three weeks in. >> two. >> i'm already a little bored with this. how long is this story going to last? forever. quite possibly. monica lewinski lasted every day for more than a year. i guess this one too. i really think we haven't examined fully.

after nixon era we all promised we were going to take harder look at the personalities of these men and women who wanted to be president. how hard a look did we really take at donald trump besides the usual personality profile. how much did we really print about the guy, know about the guy, find out about the guy? i'm willing to say had we done all of it, the result still might have been the same. let's keep in mind his opponent got two million more votes than he did. you can hardly ask hillary clinton to do better than that. we're locked in a terrible system that produces presidents that the public does not want. >> roger simon not mincing

woshwoshrds as you prepare for retirement. >> thank you. is this already the leakiest white house ever? what does that mean for trump coverage? our a list panel will be right back after this break. ? getting your quarter back. fountains don't earn interest, david. you know i work at ally. i was being romantic. you know what i find romantic? a robust annual percentage yield that's what i find romantic. this is literally throwing your money away. i think it's over there. that way? yeah, a little further up. what year was that quarter? what year is that one? '98 that's the one. you got it! nothing stops us from doing right by our customers. ally. do it right. let's get out of that water.

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welcome back. two weeks into the trump pr presidency and we're see leaks about about leaks. people are just knifing each other. we've counted well over a dozen stories from the new york times, washington post, reuters, ap and other outlets citing anonymous officials, sometimes criticizing each other, slamming the president and much more seriously sharing phone calls with foreign leaders. a leaky government can be a field day for reporters, but it can be a mine field. back with me now political and

business strategist tara and earl lewis. >> there's a positive side to this. people should not always think of this as a negative development. there are times when an administration wants to sort of float an idea but have some deny blt. kind of get it out for public discussion but not in a formal way. leaks work. that's why we have a first amendment. leaks are good. the negative side, the toxic side is when you have people playing office politics and feuding and putting out rumors and false information and character assassination. that's when it starts to go off the rails. >> i think this is quite jarring

because of the comparison with the previous administration. this case you have a very leaky campaign around trump following the candidate into the white house. i think we're going to have the leakiest white house that we've seen in decades partly because of colliding agendas among the trump faction. partly because they are colliding with a permanent government. now you introduce congress and aides so there are all these ears and mouths that can participate. it's going to intensify. >> should we be concerned? are you concerned about leak investigations by this white house? >> given their prostuostheir po press, it would not be surprising. it would not be out of line or something new for the white house. >> the obama white house was no friend of the press when it cams to leaks and try to fair out anonymous sources.

it's a concern. >> absolutely. let's bring up some else about the rhetoric from the trump white house. we're doing a new live cast on cnn.com thursday. talking with guests, more time than we have on tv. this week i talked to the author of a new book, anti-trump book. he told me what is brilliant about trump's rhetoric. >> one of the things that trump does that's brilliant is he has his way of turning everybody in his orbit into reality television. he's made the press a character in like a wwf drama. what bannon's way of describing us now is the opposition party. >> i thought that was fascinating insight. tara you were on the apprentice, season three, does that ring true to you? >> absolutely, 100%. donald trump has spent the past 40 years basic perfecting and

honing his leveraging of the media to his advantage. he senses vulnerabilities and what he does is lying ted, crooking hillary. he senses these vulnerabilities that exist amongst people and he boils it down into some sort of mo moniker. they stick because he's able to fair it out what that vulnerability that exists is and exploit it. i think people underestimate him. they often refer to him as being stupid or dumb or things like that. i think that's a mistake. i don't think he should be underestimates. he's a master marketer and he's taken the best practices of reality tv and applying them to his presidency. >> case in point, this week a successful roll out of his supreme court pick. there was some buzz about whether two finalists were on the way to washington. your reporters indicated that maybe this was intentional. the white house wanted people to think both judges were on the way to d.c. when the person who

was not nominated stayed in pennsylvania the whole time. >> remember trump, there was a tail during the campaign where he talked about how he liked to be surprising and unpredictable. that sort you sort of saw that on display that evening. you're looking over here thinking it's going to be "apprentice" like and you get a traditional presidential announcement. >> looked like any other announcement. do we need more skepticism when it comes to moments like that? >> we need to have more professional discipline. stick to your sources. follow your money. stick to what is true. don't get swayed by whether or not it seems as if the media is unpopular. the president spent every day on the campaign trail calling individual journalists and journalists as a whole scum and dishonest and so forth. let him do that if that's what he wants to do. it will give you more time to set up your investigations,

follow the money, work your sources, tell the truth. that's our job. that's what we're paid to do. that's what we're supposed to do. >> panel, thank you very much for being here. min i mentioned a message from sean spicer coming up after the break. i will talk about how we all need editing. even the president. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine. all seems beautiful to me. if you have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis isn't it time to let the real you shine through? introducing otezla, apremilast. otezla is not an injection, or a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently.

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>> welcome back to "reliable sources." i'm brian stelter. before we go, a look at the president's facebook feed. smart is what trump wrote on his facebook page linking to this. kuwait issues its own trump-esk visa ban. the president or one of his aides posted the story to his facebook page with the caption smart. a quarter of a million people

have commented on this. this muslim ban by kuwait has been out there for a while. they planned to stop issuing visas for some nationalities. one of the countries affected quoted a local embassy official saying there's no truth to it. now, check this out. this is one of the russian government's own news sites. it jump on the rumor originally saying situate ripped a page from playbook of u.s. president donald trump but then a correction saying the following news article proves to be untrue. now, let's go ahead and reload the president's facebook page. yeah. baseless story is still racking up likes and comments. this raises a question. does sloppiness matter? i mean, do you expect trump's aides to catch screwups like this or do you shrug it off. do you care that the white house press release on saturday said that trump spoke with the

president of australia when in fact he's the prime minister of the country? maybe i don't care. maybe you don't care. australian newspapers and tv networks cared a lot. sloppiness does matter for the white house. the same way it matters for teachers, truck drivers, chefs and carpenters. a few typeos, fine. a sloppiness is when your employer starts to notice. there were a couple times where reporters had to correct press secretary sean spicer. in one briefing spicer accidentally said iranians had taken hostile action against an american warship. listen to him say our navy vessel. >> so i think general flynn was really clear yesterday that iran has violated the joint resolution. iran's additional hostile actions are ones that we're very clear are not going to sit by and take.

thank you. >> a saudi vessel? >> that's right. >> major garrett corrected him since the iranian backed rebels were the ones attacking a saudi arabian ship and not an american ship. i don't think anyone says this is a huge deal in and of itself but it's inattention to detail and that matters when the pentagon released jihadist video recovered from a raid in yemen to show the value of the raid but later realizes it's ten years old and widely seen. reporters covering the white house cannot afford to be sloppy either. if year going to hold this administration accountable. here's an example. saturday "the washington post" columnist and cnn analyst josh rogin posted a column shared all over the place about a battle bean bannon and kelly. it said bannon traveled in person to confront kelly over a key aspect of the travel ban but

he called dhs but not the white house. sean spicer later denied that bannon traveled to kelly's office and the "post" published multiple corrections. this kind of sloppiness hurts the media and they know it. spicer now says rogan owes readers and the white house an apology. this is what spicer told me in a text message this morning. he said "the post" printed a false story, didn't follow basic standards and then covered it up." i don't agree that "the post" covered it up but this is a two-way street. errors about the bowling green massacre and press office's typos and trump fake news on facebook shows sloppiness straight from the white house. i think the public should hold the press, us, and the president to the highest of standards. that's all for this televised edition of "reliable sources." i would love your feedback on today's show. look me up on facebook and

twitter. my handle is @brianstelter. sign up for our nightly newsletter. it will come out early today to get ahead of the super bowl. stay tuned now. "state of the union" with jake tapper is coming up next. not so fast. federal judge halts the immigration ban letting thousands of travelers into the united states. but president trump vows to fight back. what will the white house do next. going nuclear. president trump makes his pick for the nation's highest court. >> judge gorsuch, a man for the country and a man our country really needs. >> he urges republicans to do whatever it takes to get him confirmed. >> if you can, go nuclear. >> will the majority senate leader t