overall the report says the world economy could more than double in size by 2042 mainly due to netechnology driven products. thanks for being part of my program this week. i'll see you next week. it's time for "reliable sources." this is our weekly look at the story behind the story. how the media really works. how the news gets made. this hour president trump has a new tv in the presidential dining room. are his immediamedia habits chat all? they talked about cable news, new york times and much more and he has the details coming up. plus, columnist andrew sullivan breaking his silence saying this is an emergency situation. a must see interview later this hour. : we' first, with so much news coming from d.c. every day, it's

easy to lose sight of the over arching story and that is, at least in my view, the trump's administration relationship with reality. it's a fractured relationship now. take a look at this list. we made it no order. sean spicer references a terror attack in orlando three times. he said he meant atlanta. spicer saying cnn retracted something when it happened. spicer talking about yemen in ways that shocked a lot of people. it goes on and on. that was as of saturday. there are new developments this morning. trump is praising one of his aides, stephen miller. miller doubled and tripled down there's been massive voter fraud in this country without providing a shred of evidence for it.

was this the worst week ever for the white house communications team. sarah westwood, the white house correspondent for the washington examiner. sarah, let me start with you. your impression so far. what are you experiencing day-to-day with spicer in the briefing room? >> the trump administration and spicer, they seem to have the attitude that the media is going to treat them unfairly no matter what. they're going to pay less attention to the optics of their decisions than a typical administration might. this week they are seeing the limitations of that approach. their hand got slapped on the travel ban. they proceeded with the media would cover it negatively away. they were going to push it through as quickly as possible. that's starting to affect their ability to deliver on their agenda. >> let me bring in former senior advisor to president obama.

you've been outspoken about this. you don't think spicer will last very long at his job. >> all you have to do is read the papers about how trump feels about him and how steve bannon feels about him. i've never seen anyone treated by their colleagues the way sean spicer has been. more importantly because the way he's performed in the first few weeks here. he's undermined himself. he's lost credibility. he's become a walking internet meme. that means he can't do his job in the way trump needs him to do it. over the long term he will have to make a decision about what's best for himself or trump will make a decision for him. >> are you part of the problem, dan? you're coming from the left saying spicer has been undermined. aren't you undermining him? >> yes. i'm happy to do so. when you read the stories about how you hear white house aides saying trump doesn't like him. he wasn't trump's first choice. you read stories about him interviewing other people.

there's a faction of the white house who prefers he was not press secretary. that's makes it hard for him to do his job. >> a lot of infighting. snl poked fun at spicer. it was harsh. here is some the highlights or the low lights. >> earlier this week you said there was a terrorist attack in atlanta. >> yeah, i said that wrong when i said it and then you wrote it, which makes you wrong. when i say something wrong, you should know what it is i'm meaning wrong or right. you're wrong. then there's some light terrorism this week when nordstroms decided to stop selling ivanka trump's line of clothing and accessories. these are high, high quality products. in fact, i'm wearing one of her bangles right now. >> mentally though, are you

okay? >> not sure what snl will do next week. dan, let me ask you since you've been in the white house, do these snl impersonations matter? >> everyone gets made fun of. jon stewart made a lot of fun of me once. over the course of time if an impression is created that undermines the capacity of one of the most visible faces of the white house to be taken as a credible spokesperson, that's problematic. there will be a time when we're not debating whether in orde ii should have taken ivanka trump's products, if they are not taken seriously then that's a problem. >> you were a white house correspondent for the new york times. what is your impression of how

this white house, its communications issues stack up against past presidents. >> one of the things that's amazing is the intensity of this. i covered bill clinton through the monica lewinsky trouble at sort of peak lewinsky, the white house briefing room felt like every day in first three week of this administration, how everybody will maintain this fevered pitch for the next four years. it's really a mystifying question now. >> let me ask sarah about this. are you experiencing any issues with access or finding this white house is contrary to some of the fears a month ago still providing the same accessadmini? >> i've never had any problems with access. they have been providing access. what's making the intensity seem so much more dramatic in past administrations is because

spicer is tasked with picking every fight with the media. they don't let things lie. they want to fight on the nordstr nordstrom's line. they want to fight on every little discrepancy they see in media trouble. it makes the white house seem like they are embattled and that's their own making. >> we did ask sean spicer to appear on the show this morning and he did decline. this is not just about the press secretary. you have the president making misstatements and the aides are doing what he says. >> sarah is making really important point there. don't forget one of the things that is surprising about this white house is they have shown so little interest in reaching beyond the base, really the minority base of voters that elected donald trump. i think they think these battles with the press work for them. and all the noise they are

producing, all the furry y is h doing a lot of stuff and he's upsetting the status quo. i think they think this is working for them. >> who worrisome is it for you to have a president that tweets that all negative polls are fake news? >> it's terribly worrisome to me. i think and should be to a lot of americans when the very idea of truth is under assault like this. >> you feel like it is? >> yeah. >> the very idea of truth. dan, what's your take on that? i don't want that tweet about polls to get loss. i think it's part of the foundation of the house. the president doesn't believe his approval ratings or says he doesn't, then that's one of the checks on any president. if that foundation is eroded, it could be a problem. >> right. this is very alarming. i can't tell you whether trump believes the things he says or he's trying to paint a different picture. when you have the president of the united states using his

massive, the massive poll whether it's on twitter or television interviews to say things that are provably false, that's problematic. you now have this infrastructure on social media sites, these breitbart, some of these new conservative outlets that have been set up to amplify those concerns, we live in a world of alternative reality. a significant portion of the country believing in an alternative set of facts, that's not good for democracy. >> how does it effect your writing, your reporting, how does it affect you? >> when it comes follows i think trump can be forgiven for not trusting polls as much as the next politician because he went through an experience where polls were regularly stuffed down his throat as proof of why he would lose and then he won.

with the trump administration it's good to check twice their facts. also a reflection of the people work ng the administration have never been at this level before because trump issued so much of the republican establishment and what you're seeing is a lot of rookie mistakes. >> one more note on this about that, let's put on screen one of your editorials this week. in the new york times write about michael flynn and what he said about his conversations with the russian ambassador. you wrote no one can believe what he says anymore. where do you see this story going? this morning on the morning talk show, basically would not say a word about this flynn issue. >> presumably the president will have to address this question at some point in the coming days because the vice president is implicated in passing on the

falsehood that mike flynn had originally committed in claiming he had no conversations with the russian ambassador after the election about sanctions. it was a very powerful piece of journalism in the washington post this week showing that, revealing there are taps showing that he did have those conversations. mike flynn was already a very e divisive and unusual choice for this job. his background is a hot head. he's already a divisive force within this white house. it's really surprising that the president hasn't already addressed this. i think he will have to. >> james, thank yous very much f for being here. the ratings of snl came in. a six-year high. coming up next, a sunday morning exclusive about something that isn't being talked about on television. a must see interview with andrew sullivan who calls the

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kellyanne conway last week is already being taught in journalism classes. he challenged conway about the white house disregard for the truth. he's not the only one. i sensed a new tone on the nightly news this week. watch how scott opened his broadcast on monday. >> today president trump told a u.s. military audience there's been terrorist attacks that no one knows about because the media choose not to report them. it has been a busy day for presidential statements divorced from reality. >> divorced from reality. my next guest andrew sullivan, a pioneering blogger, now a contributor editor for the new york magazine is taking it a step further questioning trump's mental health with this article, the madness of king donald. your thesis is this is a national emergency. you use the word emergency in your column. why? what's your case? >> because any liberal democracy, any constitutional

democracy relies upon something we call the objective truth. some politicians lie but they always do it in a way that pays some sort of difference to reality. what we have discovered is in the last three weeks this president, rather like he did on the campaign trail, simply insists that black is white. things we can see with our own eyes like the size of his inauguration crowd, are not exactly what we're seeing. he's able to command his underlings to go out there and say things that are untrue. there is not about politics or ideology. there are some things he believes in like a more restrained america around the world, immigration control that i'm sympathetic to. it's about the ability for the president to tell the truth and for us to believe it. to have such an unstable figure incapable of accepting reality at the center of the world is an

extremely dangerous thing. >> you said instable. in your column you said mentally unstable. why do you think it's appropriate to be describing the president that way? >> i'm not a shrink, and if i were i wouldn't say this any way. i am a human being. i can tell if someone is saying things we know not to be true and never corrected. the murder rate, which is a solid statistic, there are bodies we can count. when he says the murder rate is the highest in 45 to 47 years, what are we supposed to do? what is anybody supposed to do? this is completely bonkers. he's saying things that do not exist. when a president is saying things like that and doesn't correct himself, has no one correct him, we have fact checkers every day of the week compiling lists and lists of things he's saying that are impeie

untrue. i don't know if he doesn't know they are false. if he knows they are false and still saying it's true then and if he doesn't know then she shouldn't be in that office. >> on the point about the murder rate, i remember the day he made that false statement. i talked with my editors. we reached the conclusion that was a lie and called it a lie. it's been corrected so many times. he must know the truth about the murder rate. you're taking it a couple steps further by questioning his mental stability. why you think that's not being said more often on television or in columns like your own? do you feel like you're a bit alone on this issue, and if so, why? >> i think others are picking up. if you're not on camera or not writing, people are talking about this all the time. i think sometimes you want to assume there's a rationality at the center of our entire republic. there's someone who can listen to reason, who can see an

empirical fact. between what he wants to be true and what is true. sometimes we don't want to say that in public. we can't. look, we're journalists, and we're trying to understand what's happening. if we don't say what's in front of our eyes, what use are we. how are we supposed to do this when someone keeps telling us untruths every day? >> are you describing a failure of journalism that it's not being addressed more publicly? >> i think the journalists have been doing a fantastic job of fact checking. it doesn't really capture the extent of what's going on. i think many journalists, for good reasons, because we don't want to say something's not right here, have to conform to certain routines and procedures and norms that we used to use. all politicians fib, they pass

the truth. bill clinton was someone who seemed to fib all the time but they always paid some reference to reality. when it was pointed out, when fact was pointed out, they would correct it. he won't correct anything. i don't think of all the hundreds and hundreds of false statements he's made, he and his spokesman have not retracted a single one. you ask yourself why? >> my point to birtherism and say he did come out before election day and said president obama was born in the u.s. that's the only example that comes to my mind of a statement that he corrected. >> that's true. if you saw that press conference, it was incredibly reluctant, rushed and immediately followed by another attack. >> do you worry that talking about his psychology, do you worry it further causes divisions in the country. makes it impossible for the people who voted for him to want to hear you out? >> of course they do. god knows i wish i weren't here

having to say this. no one wants to be here saying this. i don't want to believe the president of the united states just delusional or cannot accept reality. of course not. it pains me. it gives me great pain and concern about distress. at some point being a writer or journalist requires one to say what one is seeing in front of one's eyes and sometimes you have to say that in plain english. >> you don't see any alternative explanations for his behavior? >> well, i do think his ego is involved. he wants not to seem as if he's gotten something wrong. he does want to say things that advance certain policies he propose. >> the policy is fine. all of which is fine. if you continuely do that and never recognize reality. if you're still insisting as he was lately as last friday that there was massive voter fraud and millions of people voted,

all of whom voted for hillary clinton were voting in the last election. that is simply, first of all, completely untrue. it's also deeply destructive of democratic legitamacy and it is to put it frankly, a little bonkers. >> all this media coverage of trump, all this criticism of trump, people suggesting he's unstable is all hysteria. take a look at this complilation from fox news. >> you read these hysterical headline fs in the media. >> i thought there was a lot of media hysteria over the trump executive order on the refugees. >> more of the same kind of hysterical hand wringing that goes on about everything he says.opposed by the mainstream media.

>> what's your reaction? >> sure, say that. i'm happy to be called his tier c -- hysterical if people want to call me that. how do you explain the constant barrage of untruths coming out of this person? how do you explain that? i'm not tweeting in the early hours of the morning in all caps. i'm not out of control in terms of tweeting every morning, noon and night about things that are not true. violating established norms of responsible behavior in the office of the president. if there's anybody who is exhibiting hysteria, panic and out of controlness, it's coming from the oval office, not from the rest of us. liberal democracy requires some common reality for us to have a

really good fight over him. we have to relate it to reality at some point. our interpretation of reality. when the central figure in our political system is creating an entire world of unreality, how are we supposed to respond? i think we have to respond. we have to respond by saying excuse many mr. president, with all due respect you keep telling us things that are not true. can you please stop this? if you can't stop it, if you keep asserting the world as one way when it isn't, then we have a serious problem at the very heart of our government. denying that or tiptoeing around it or not saying it plainly is a failure of our duty as journalists as writers, reporters to say and call it as we see it. >> thank you so much for being here this morning. >> you're so welcome. when we come back, a very

different view from someone who spent time with the president this weekend. you won't want to miss what chris has to say in just a moment.

donald trump's twitter feed matters because foreign leaders are all monitoring it. all paying very close attention. foreign leaders like kim jong-un. on a weekend when the president faces his first real international test with north korea, on a weekend when he's hosting the japanese prime minister, on a weekend when he's working on his response for the 9th circuit, trump is tweeting about this. quote, while he's on fake news cnn, bernie sanders was cut off for using the term fake news to describe the network. they said technical difficulties. the video tape proves that

bernie sanders made a joke about fake news while criticizining trump. he was not cut off for using the term. there was a technical glitch. it was fixed and the interview went on for nine minutes. this is not about cnn. it's about what trump is choosing to tweet about. he saw that video clip of sanders on fox and friends because he weighed this half an hour later. we know there's pattern now that's pretty clear. the president begins his day by tuning into cable news, fox, msnbc, cnn and reacting on twitter. he's also talking with his friends about his media consumption. that's why i want to bring in chris ruddy who was with the president on friday night. chris, good to see you. >> great to be on with you again. >> i know you were talking about fake news. why does the president call cnn fake news? >> well, look, if you just watched the last half hour you spent on this show calling him a

pathological liar and beyond that saying he's mentally crazy and unstable, i mean is that really -- are you really connected to reality? i sort of almost have to wonder. i think the president has been in campaign mode since he got into office. he's been a show biz guy for many years. i think he needs to throttle back the twitter messages. i think you'll see that over time. people like him. one of the reasons he's been so successful is he tells people what he thinks. to believe, as andrew claimed, that because he got the murder statistic rate wrong that he's a pathological liar and therefore he's mentally unstable, i really think that's over the top. that's why millions and millions of people are turning off the big cable news networks because they feel -- i don't know if it's fake news as much as it's bias news. this is a guy, always remember this. he was 30 years old. he shows up in manhattan and

within a few years he's building some of the biggest hotels. he goes to atlantic city and owns the biggest casinos. in his 50s he become a tv star. he has 14 years with a hit show. nobody has 14 years with a hit show. two years ago he decides he wants to run for president. he's now president. this is a man, if he's crazy, he's crazy like a fox. i would not underestimate his abilities and i do think we need to give him a little slack. he's the first non-politician as president. give him six months. we could pick -- i think barack obama is a good plaman, but we could pick apart his personality quirks. i do not think that would be conducive building consensus. >> andrew is not the only person to raise issues. his friend howard stern said i don't think being president will be good for donald trump because the president wants to be liked. when you're the president, you're the most hated person in the world.

look at what happened to president obama or president bush before that. do you have that same sense after talking with trump on friday? >> well, i think he is a little sensitive to the press criticism. >> i would be too. >> he's been in new york media circles for years. you can't get into off th a tou arena than that. this is a guy that's battle tested. i think the problem is not so much him. it's the white house's showing not the amount of order that we need to see. i think there's a lot of weakness coming out of chief of staff. i think reince priebus, good guy, well intentioned, but he doesn't know how the federal agencies work. he doesn't have a real good system. he doesn't know how the communications flow. i think sean spicer is doing a good job under difficult circumstances. i think the president is not getting the back up he needs in the operation of the white house. sometimes the push back that he

needs, which you would have with a stronger white house counsel. >> you tweeted your discussion with the president was about the new york times. what came up about the new york times? >> well, i don't think it's any secret that the president's not a big fan of the new york times. he knows they lead the coverage a lot in stories about him and his family and administration. he sees a steady, steady flow of critical stories from a number of reporters there. i think he's a guy that's going to tell you what he thinks. >> anything inaccurate from those stories? one of her stories is about how the president is having a hard time adjusting to life in the white house? >> i didn't get that sense from him. he is telling me he loves the job. i've never seen him relaxed than before he started getting into the election about two years ago. i think he's fitting in fine. i think he's put a really good team in the cabinet.

they're just starting to get settled in. we're not even a month into this yet. >> for sure. that's why people are shocked by how many misstatements he's made. he says on twitter that all negative polls are fake news, chris, he knows that's not true. >> well, maybe he's having a little fun with you too. >> that's true. we've got to think about that. >> last time i was on your show he called me on the phone and said he wasn't happy with some of your commentary. he obviously watches these shows. nobody ever really held the press accountable for the things they do and the mistakes they do. >> the president has my number. he can call any time through sean spicer. i'm sure i'll hear from them afterwards. you mentioned cable news ratings. the numbers are through the roof for the big cable news channels now. obviously the president is watching. do you think he should be watching less cable news? would it help him to watch a little bit less? >> i think he's extremely well informed. i think he likes getting, he's

probably the most accessible guy we've had in the presidency this modern times. i think part of this also is he likes to access a lot of information. he doesn't just watch cable news. he watches entertainment programs. he watches a lot of sports. >> what entertainment shows, do you know? >> excuse me. >> do you know which entertainment shows? >> all i know is he knows everything about the entertainment industry. he follows a lot of those shows. i wouldn't know half these celebrities walking down the street. he does. he keeps on top of that business but also in finance and politics. i think hesitate really good that he's tuning in and listens to different points of view. the previous president didn't watch much and lived a little bit in a bubble but nobody talks about that. >> we talked about it here. don't do that thing where we say we dent talk aboidn't talk abou. we always talk about it. >> look what he does.

foreign policy. this is not a guy mentally unstable. he's reaffirmed nato. he's issued caution to iran. he's reaffirmed the special relationship we have with britain. he's reaffirmed the one china policy with china. this is signs of a stable, sensible world leader. i think you're going to see more of that. he's not done anything out of norm or anything bizarre in foreign policy. that will be a sign of how he's going to behave on domestic policy and really he wants to be judged by his results. he's a business guy. if he makes the bottom line works for millions of americans he will be relekked a re-electe popular. >> thank you for being here. >> i'll see you. coming up on the show, right after the break was it a coeisenhowc coindense that trump was only called on two reporters? afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road.

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at friday's press conference, president trump took only two questions. that's not unusual at a presser with a foreign leader. check out who trump called on. >> we'll take a few questions unless you don't want to ask any questions if that's possible. maybe we'll start -- where is daniel of the new york post. blake berman, fox. >> the interesting thing is both the new york post and fox business are owned by rupert murdock. they talk regularly according to my next guest. tensions have been coming to a head over the paper's trump coverage. now there's a town hall scheduled for tomorrow with the editor in chief of journal. let's take a closer look at the

murdoch-trump nexus. you had a couple of scoops this week. you had one with murdoch sitting in on an interview with trump. what can you tell us about this relationship? >> it's close and it's been close. the two have been close for a very long time. rupert and ivanka trump to the extent she was a trustee of his two daughters. about $300 million worth of shares in two companies. close ties. >> do you think it matters, do you think it affects the news coverage on these outlets? >> i'm shnot sure it does but i think people should know.

they need to know there's this relationship. without it, it's difficult the take seriously claims that it was this awful big mainstream media out there that's dead set against the president when at the same time, another sort of wing of the media, bit half of the media has these close ties. >> that's an interesting point. when you say the president trashes the media, he's not talking about everybody. >> he's not. he called on those two murdoch outlets. rupert sat in. it doesn't disclosed in the times story. 2,000 words about the interview. it's not unusual for newspapers to meet presidents. rupert sat at the back. he didn't pose for the selfies. >> you think he was hiding? >> i had several sourtces say h

was sitting at the back. >> we can put one of our he headlines up on screen. one of the top deputies left the paper for the new york times. it comes at a time when a politico, cnn and other outlets are writing about this drama. there's some writers, some journalists are are dissenting from the trump coverage. they say the coverage needs to be tougher, sharper. you worked for a competitor but what is your sense of this dynamic? >> there's a sense of that. i think the journal, all newspapers are having a hard time with advertising. it's having to cut costs and let a lot of people go. it does have a right leaning proprietor who is close to the trumps. these aren't new facts for anyone who works at the journal. jerry baker was a former

colleague of mine. he's been fairly right of center. there's a sense within the rank and file news gatherers and news operations they could be taking a tougher line on the trump administration. >> that's the concern i'm hearing about. it's not at all universal. there's a lot of writers not concerned. >> they are doing good trump coverage. they talk to people. one person i spoke to said there's pockets of great stuff. they are doing heavy hitting reporting. there's a sense they should be taking a tougher line. >> thanks for taking us behind the scenes. good to see you. >> the journal of the only paper getting attention for the whole coverage and a look inside new york times. right after the a quick break.

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being a journalist is permission for lifetime

learning. car died two years ago today. i will remember how much he loved journal imand say this beats working. that's true. but the times and other papers face stiff challenges if they want to stay in business these days. wired magazine brings this up, the new issue, we're revealing it this morning and the banner says the news in crisis. the star is ag solsberger, titled keeping up with the times. joining me now is the author of that article, a contributor to wire. great to see you. >> good to be here. >> you spent a long time looking deep inside the new york times analyzing how the heck trying to transition from the print to digital age. did you feel more bullish about the future about the paper or more concerned?

>> i think came away feeling more bullish. i went into it with a lot of skepticism with newspapers just as a business. the new york times has lost a tremendous amount of revenue from their advertising business over the last decade. and they have been slow to find ways to get that back. but they are showing one of the bright spots in the industry with the growth of their digital subscription business. that quest for more digital subscription revenue transforms the organization. recently published a report that said it. we are now a subscription at first editing. >> we're seeing this across the country. more money for subscriptions, last advertising. >> last year they made $250 million give or take which is a tremendous amount of money, money than most digital first media organizations are bringing

in. >> why is it both a cover story? why does it matter so much? president trump has recently said the new york times is failing, it's fake. it's one of his favorite targets along with cnn why is this worthwhile in depth? >> i started this before the election and i think the election changed the stakes. the new york times is along with other great journalistic institutions sort of the bullworks of truth and fact of our civil discourse. the questions about how they're going to survive are vitalle to understand how are we going to maintain the reporting apparatus that produces the kind of shared truth that we can discuss. you know, donald trump on the first day after one of his early tweets after the election he attacked the new york times for reporting that he said something that he said on cnn and there

was tape of him saying that. that was an early skirmish in this question. >> 30 seconds left. your take away from the deputy publisher now in line to take over? >> that's the other big thing is it was the first time he's really given an interview of this length. i think that he has been -- kind of understood his role as a change agent inside the organization to really be helping the digital staff find these new revenue. that's been a huge cultural tension in that organization. you were there at some -- a while back and probably are familiar with it. i think starting with his overseeing the innovation report and now with his appointment as the deputy publisher it's sort of established the priorities within the organization of digital. >> great to see you. thanks for being here. we're out of time.

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hi grandma! and the fastest internet. [ girl screaming ] [ laughter ] . travel ban battle. is president trump's immigration order headed to the supreme court. >> i have no doubt we'll win. >> what is his next move in this political showdown! >> we'll be doing something rapidly seeing that sometime next week. >> chris christie joins us live for an exclusive interview. plus bombshell. the washington post says national security adviser mike flynn did talk with russia about revisiting sanctions while obama was still president. >> i don't know about it.