things, at least pertaining to her mom. conscience of the newsroom and keeper of the office candy jar, we can't wait to have her back and enjoy everying seco second t little girl. anderson is next. thank you for joining us, we begin tonight with the cnn exclusive behind the intelligence on the recent bans of lap tops and other electronics on flight into the country. we're learning about some chilling methods the bombmakers are using, including testing them out on real airport security scanners until the scanners can no longer detect them. evan, what are you learning? >> reporter: well, anderson, cnn has learned that u.s. intelligence hand lawmakers believe that -- fbi testing shows can evade some commonly used airport screening machines.

now terror bombmakers have come up with a way to hide explosives in the battery compartments but still have the lap top turned on long enough to get past the screeners. in december, fbi experts report that they tested different layers of explosive configurations to see how difficult it would be for airport screeners to detect them. the test found that the machine had a far more difficult time detecting these types of now bombs, anderson. >> and there's new information about how terrorists are perfecting their skills? >> reporter: there's a number of things going on here tonight, anderson. there is information that these terror groups have been able to gaining some access to airport screening equipment. what does that do for them? it allows them to basic test a device that they fab date and see how far they can go to get it past airport screening, now this was part, part of what led

to the ban of several weeks ago of carrying consumer electronics and lap top like components on airports because of the concern of this kind of capability. but that wasn't all of it. it wasn't just isis, there's been monitoring or increased chatter of threats against aviation from isis, from al qaeda in syria, and in particular, also al qaeda in yemen, that has a long, long history of being able to do this. it's raising a lot of questions about where the threat goes from here and how the federal government responds, will they need to do more? anderson. >> they have limited a direct ban of flights of specific countries, why does the fbi not have a wider ban? >> the u.s. and the europeans have layered security that have greatly improved the chance of

detenting explosives beyond just the screening equipment. the u.s. government continue wally reassesses existing intelligence and it creates new intelligence and that allows our government to con stachbt ly i valuate aviation security processes and policies to make enhancements when they are deemed necessary to keep passengers safe. there's a lot that we don't know they're doing behind the scenes to keep aircraft safe. >> appreciate the investigation. want to bring in our security experts, juliette, what's your reaction to all of this? because you and i were just talking about the lap top ban a couple of weeks ago on the program and there was still a lot of unanswered questions then. this clearly, it seems like intelligence was a significant part of why the ban was put in

place? >> that's exactly right. and quite specific intelligence that not only were terrorist groups trying to manipulate or find the loopholes in the system, but they had possibly taken equipment to test it. in some ways this shouldn't be a surprise, for every defensive move the u.s. takes, the terrorists try to work afternoon it. and the challenge, as we're seeing and you just saw basically in that tsa statement is that domestically, 2 million people are flying a year, there's 100,000 flights a day globally. the size of our aviation network is so huge, that the more security you put on it, the slower it will get and potentially stop huge commercial activity. so the lap top ban which may have its flaws seems in response to this. but it does beg a bigger question, which is if this is a vulnerability, why wouldn't you either prohibit all lap tops or have better screening processes.

>> al qaeda on the arabian peninsula and isis all have this enhanced capability. is it possible that they're sharing intelligence? does it make sense to you that they would all have it? >> there is evidence that isis is sharing intelligence with al qaeda in syria. remember in the summer of 2014, there was that float from the cora son group, there was electron electronics, smug mg them on to planes and that led to new security requirements at overseas airport including having to power up your develop. now they're loolg king at devic that you don't need to power up, that you can hide in the dvd drive some explosives and we understand that that's what happened in that case in 2014 in that somali airline bomb attempt. this comes from our colleague, that that device was put on an

export device by two airport insiders and also got through the screening machine and. the investigators actually went back to that x ray machine, they reviewed the scanned image and on that review of the saved scanned image, they were able to determine the possibility of explosives. so even with a x-ray machine, which is the least effective at detecting these kinds of explosives, that should have been caught in mogadishu. but with these more advanced explosive trait detector at the airport. those are very good in deed at detecting explosives threat, including explosives hidden in a lap top. that is in place in europe and the united states, and also in some other parts of the world, including dubai and abu dhabi, and when you go through these gates, you should not be able to get any kind of these devices

through, the worry is people could get lazy, and that could not be the case at every gate. >> is it true that some terrorists have obtained actual security equipment to test how to conceal these kind of explosives? >> anderson, in 2009, we saw an attempt over detroit to have the underwear bomber, someone who had a bomb device designed by a bombmaker to get around security. that same bombmaker is still around. if you're in the counter terrorism business, you can create defensive measures. i'm suspicious of them. you can't train everybody perfectly. you can create defensive measures, but they won't work long-term. there's only two things you can do on the offensive side. number one, let me be brutal. there are very few bombmakers who have the sophistication to do this, in yemen, in iraq, in syria, you got to kill them. in second, long-term, you have to have a solution to eliminate

space, to eliminate the geographic space for isis and al qaeda in places like yemen, to have the time and energy over two years, three years, five years, to design these kind of devices, you got to kill the people who do this and you've got to eliminate the space for terrorist groups to create the expertise to do this, otherwise defense doesn't work long-term. >> richard, the idea of outright banning all lap tops from planes, i mean that seems impossible. i mean people, you know, people are traveling for work, even, you know, putting in the cargo hold is one thing, but the idea of not letting any lap tops on planes, that seems completely impractical. >> so you have to look at the various ways you can mitigate this risk. and other countries that are upset this morning really shows the enormity, literally of the problem, how do you keep planes flying safely, without gumming up the whole system, that it

takes you hours longer to get from a to b, and it really is multilayered. it's not just the machines and it's not just the staff, it's the some panel of security that secures the security and safety. because otherwise, anderson, you're right, we're going to head to a situation, where liquids and gels won't be allowed on board, where lap tops won't be allowed on board. we saw the chaos that happened a few years ago, when people were not allowed on board with handbag begage at all. we do not want to go back to those situations, so it's really identifying those airports where there are security worries and even then you've got to go further, because the list of airports are not the same. dubai, abu dhabi and dohar do not appear on any of the lists, or the list that's concerned with paris, frankfurt or rome.

so you've really got a hodgepodge of rules and understandings and we are heading toward somewhat of a security mess, where eventually something's going to get through. that's the worry. because as i always say in these situations, remember what the ira said during the brighton bomb, you have to be lucky every time, we only have to be lucky once. >> appreciate the concerning news. breaking news p what and who the chairman of the house intelligence committee saw and met with at the white house. and why did the president shut down the kind of photo-op he typically loves to give. the answer when 360 continues. when you're close to the people you love, does psoriasis ever get in the way of a touching moment? if you have moderate to severe psoriasis,

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the white house, house speaker schiff -- embattled committee chairman devin nunes says he saw. what are you reporting on? >> reporter: anderson schiff spent about three hours on the white house complex, after viewing these documents that the white house offered off. and afterwards he did confirm that the documents he saw today, the information he viewed today was the same information that devin nunes reviewed himself over a week ago. he would not speak about the n contempco contents of that information, he really blasted the white house saying, quote, nothing i could see today warranted a departure from the normal review proceed jaguars and these materials should now be shared with

membership of both committees. so schiff there making it perfectly clear is that he's unhappy with the way the white house has handled this, unhappy with the fact that nunes saw these documents a week ago and saying the white house should have shared the information with the full committees in the first place. >> and how the house intelligence committee chairman nunes responding today? is he responding to this? >> reporter: the white house continues to push back on these reports and confirmed today by cnn that two white house staffers were indeed involved in some way in these intelligence disclosures. his staff today issuing a very kurt statement saying, quote, chairman nunes will not confirm or deny speculation about his source's identity and he will not respond to speculation from anonymous sources and later today, this evening, he was asked in an affiliate interview when he was out in california, his home state about these reports and he called them in his words mostly wrong, but

notably, anderson, he did not offer any specifics or any details as to why it's wrong, anderson? >> all right, southerland thanks so much. what more did spicer have today to say about flynn? >> reporter: he basically said that the former national security advisor michael flynn should go ahead and testify. as you heard from trump earlier today, that michael flynn should have immunity, he described the russia investigation as a witch hunt, but it was interesting to listen to the back and forth during the white house briefing today, because as reporters were bri being briefed by sean spicer, he was asked -- throughout this briefing is that what is more important than his questions about trump campaign contact with the russians during the

election is the president's claim in those tweets that he was wiretapped by former president obama, a claim that they have now broadened to mean overall surveillance and here's what sean spicer had to say about that. >> reporter: are you more concerned about that or russian interference in the presidential election? >> i think i as an american citizen are very concerned about the fact that people potentially were sharing information about other americans for political purposes and using classified information to do so and leaking it. that should be concerning to everybody. >> reporter: when the president says mike flynn should get immunity, is he suggesting to congress that he should grant immunity? >> i think mike flynn and his legal counsel should do what's right for michael flynn. >> reporter: the fbi and the senate intelligence committee appear to be saying at there point, according to our sources, thanks but no thanks, they're

not interesting in granting immunity at this point. >> you were pressed on the president's allegations of the timing of this completely unsan stan sheated wiretapping, what's was the president's response? >> his tweets, well, i was wiretapped by president obama, oh, my goodness, this is just like watergate. but one detail we haven't focused on very much is that president trump suggested that this happened before the election, but sean spicer is talking about surveillance that took place after the election, so they seem to be expanding what the president meant when he issued those tweets several weeks ago. here's more of that exchange between me and sean spicer on that the president's tweets time and time again talked about tapping my phones just prior to the election, just found out

that obama had donald trump tower wiretapped before the election. does this provide any information to intelligence committees that there was some type of surveillance going on before the election as the president originally alleged? >> i don't want to specifically get in -- but if we're splitting hairs about what day of the calendar it was, that's a pretty interesting development. >> in that exchange, anderson, went on for about another 30 to 45 seconds, sierra nevaean spic- that the wiretapping occurred before the election, not only now do we have a situation where the white house has said the president didn't mean wiretapping, they're talking about surveillance overall. now we're talking about wiretapping any time. as the days and weeks go on, the

white house keeps expanding what the president was talking about in those tweets. >> and not only that, by saying president obama is the one who did this, now they're saying, well, it didn't mean that it was president obama, that the president didn't mean to say president obama, he was talking about general surveillance. they do keep kind of expanding and moving the goal post and switching them all around. >>. >> reporter: and not providing any proof. how much time have they spent, i mean after the president sent out these tweets, it just seems like they have spent the weeks since then, surreying around trying to come up with ways to explain what the president meant. it seems like the last three weeks are devoted to defending president trump's three fwreets. >> the white house press office is involved, the national security office is involved. because obviously when devin nunes the chairman of the house

intelligence committee made that mysterious trip here last week, he was talking about a couple of national security officials so you have a very large part of the staff over here at the white house trying to unscrew essentially what was screwed up in those original tweets, which was alleged wiretapping before the election, all of those things, we don't have any proof for at this point, even though this has been going on for quite some time now. >> just ahead, we're going to get reaction to the breaking news and everything else from our panel, a busy day in washington, stay tuned. because she knows that when it's cold outside... it's good food and good company that keep you warm inside. marie callender's. it's time to savor.

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. the breaking news tonight, the ranking democrat of the house intelligence committee, adam schiff speaking out about his visit to the white house this afternoon where he met with president trump and received documents that were shown to congressman devin nunes, he said nothing warranted the departure of the investigation procedure. joining me is peter, i ryan, --

but also met with president trump face to face. >> i would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in that meeting. i don't think we have a whole lot of information, schiff in a statement, he obviously as you point out, anderson, he said he saw the same material or they were represented to him as being the same materials, he argued about the process that the intelligence committee and the white house used this kind of, you know, wild process of getting this stuff out. but i think the most important thing is he did not make any comment whatever about the content of these materials. and you had some extremely serious accusations from the podium at the white house today, from sean spicer about what these documents allegedly show. frankly, sean spicer went further than even nunes has gone. and you now have nunes, the white house, making some pretty serious allegations about obama

officials unmasking american citizens for political purposes, and frankly we don't -- still don't have any proof of that and even though schiff has looked at these, he hasn't commented one way or the other about those allegations. >> congressman, you saw the statement from schiff saying that nothing he saw today warranted departure from the normal review procedures, is there anything you can come up with as to why chairman nounes was shown these materials last week, other than that the white house and nunes seemed to be colluding on a political premise. >> congressman schiff told me he's not going beyond the statement that he put out that's quite straight forward. but if you read these statement carefully, there are two important items in it. number one, he makes it clearly that he was represented to him that the materials he was reading were the same materials that were shared with chairman

nunes, and number two, he asks the question, the very important question, since this material didn't appear to be out of the ordinary, why in fact was it shared, why did it require that devin nunes get in an uber, divert to the white house, meet with two senior white house staffers, take a look at the investigation, and then brief the president of the united states on what the president's staff briefed nunes on, this was a complete departure from the process of the committee, it raises even more questions tonight than they were yesterday. and it clearly suggests that we need an independent commission. >> i was just going to say, look, we have had two peek weea charade and mr offensive regarding incidental collection and that something is earth shattering. nunes has now seen them, schiff has now seen them, the white house has now seen them. so we're sort of getting to the

bottom of if there's any there there. so at the end of two weeks of basically pr stunts. so maybe at the end of next week, we'll have clearer information on this. >> flynn in fact said people usually don't ask for immunity until they commit a crime. he was wrong about that then, the president's now saying it's fine for general flynn to say that. >> when you point out that general flynn, immunity is not given just if you have committed a crime. it's customary to ask for this. he made notice of the fact that multiple people within the hillary clinton orbit were given immunity, i think there was one time in the clips you refer to

where he was referring to immunity itself. so in this case, we see general flynn asking for immunity, but what you do not see is jared kushner asking for it. you don't see this huge number of people in the trump orbit is asking for it. if michael flynn is asking for it, it's something that applies just to him. and i think that the fact that it's just him asking, suggests that. >> peter from a legal perspective, what incentives or disincentives would the fbi have for accepting a request for immunity from general flynn and how do you expect this to play out? >> i don't have the fbi has a big incentive right now to give him immunity, the incentive would be on the part of the intel committee. they're the ones who want to find out what happened. you know, the prosecution side, the doj, the fbi side, they have

slightly different goals than the intelligence side, the committee side. their goal is to the prosecutors, want to prosecute a case, they want to get a conviction, they want to find out where this leads, and make a case, the committee on the other hand, is trying to make, just find out the facts and make them available. so they're overlapping, but they're not identical. >> so they all don't have to be on the same page? >> no, and they're often not. and in the past, the committee's decision, congress's decision to grant immunity, has made prosecution ultimately impossible. so there are different interests here and, you know, my guess is that perhaps sooner rather than later they'll make a decision about this and frankly, i'm

hoping that they explore this immunity opportunity, you know, it's -- from my perspective, seeing general flynn prosecuted for whatever he's done is not the highest priority. the highest priority from my perspective is to find out what's going on and to find out what the degree and extent is if any of the russian involvement in the election. >> peter, just from our experience, i mean, when somebody is asking for immunity, is it usually the case that it's given because that person can point them to an even bigger fish or to somebody else who has actually done something wrong? i mean if general flynn, if the story in the words of his attorney has a story to tell, the story he told is nothing illegal happened, everything i do is above board. would there be any reason to grant him immunity, or is it usual that general flynn can

direct them to somebody else who did something wrong or in fact does have a story of some sort of wrong doing to tell? >> yeah, that's correct. so the way it would usually happen, the way it almost always happens is there will be what's called an attorney proffer. and the counsel for the person who's seeking immunity in this case general flynn will go to the government or the committee and say if you grant my client immunity, this is what he'll tell you. he'll lay it out in great detail. and it will be a back and back and forth and then a decision will be made and by whomever is going to be granting the immunity and saying, look, this is information that's extremely valuable, this is where it could lead. and this is something that's worth doing. and then of course they also want to vet that information to see how it fits in with the other information that's been accumulated. so that's why you couldn't be

giving immunity to a witness/target like general flynn this early in the process, you would want to find out what all the other witnesses say, look at the documents and see if this proffer that he's telling you sounds like it come ports with the other information you've already gotten. >> i want to ask you something that ryan was pointing out that general flynn was part of the never donald trump -- alleged ties to russia, do you think that's just a coincidence? >> i think when you're in a campaign mode, it's a completely different situation than when you're actually in governing mode and people are going to say and do things much differently when in a campaign mode than of the election. someone who's fired from the administration, they want to come forward with some

information, with regard to his request for immunity, i think the key here, i think to halle's point, i don't think he has much to say about the administration, i think that's to protect himself. i think there's some concerns got whether he filed the proper financial disclosures with his current clearance, but unless he's got some information that's going to shine the light on someone much higher than him i don't see him getting immunity and i don't see him being able to tell his story. >> we'll talk about go

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. the story of russia's meddling in the election has more and more subplots every day. former national security advisor michael flynn wants immunity before he testifies. today that committee's top democrat was at the white house to review documents and

congressman schiff said nothing i could see today warranted a departure from the normal review procedures and these materials should now be reviewed by membership of both committees. joining me is another member of the house intelligence committee, congressman jim heins. you have michael flynn, who talked to your committee, the senate intelligence committee and the fbi, if he's granted immunity, the senate has already said they won't do that right now, do you think that the house committee should give him immunity? >> i'm skeptical, i think you need to know two things, whether you're law enforcement or congress, which of course does have the power to grant immunity against any prosecution, but those two things are we neared know if what that information is, and is it valuable and in the public interest to know it. and the other thing is we need

to know if congress granting immunity wouldn't scotch a potential law enforcement investigation. i mean i don't want to overspeculate here, but one approach would be if michael flynn felt he was in any form of legal jeopardy for any of the activities he's undertaken in the last couple of months, he'll say i'll tell my whole story to the congress but i want them to give me immunity, because that way i know fbi or law enforcement is going to have to drop whatever case they have. >> which is what happened to oliver north. i know that flynn in the past has said that anyone who asked for immunity probably has committed a crime. but anyone speaking to federal authorities, request immunity all the time, out of fear that something they say may be used against them. that's not uncommon. >> the inference that if you plead the guilty, that you're necessarily guilty. that's not necessarily true, that's a long line of things

that michael flynn and the trump campaign said that was not true. but just looking for immunity is not a clear admission of guilt of any kind. >> now that adam schiff from your committee has seen the same documents as devin nunes, does that whole bizarre experience, does it make anymore sense to you now, now that there's been some time on it, is there any other conclusion that the white house and representative nunes, chairman nunes were colluding to try to give the president cover? >> well, you know, what happened today with congressman schiff being able to review the materials is i think the first step to getting to the bottom of this crazy escapade that has so consumed the committee and quite frankly the company for the last week and a half, i haven't had a chance to talk to congressman schiff, i wasn't present in the meetings, i do expect that if there had been something extraordinary, something in those intelligence intercepts that would warrant the kind of

unusual behavior that the chairman showed, i suspect that the congressman's statement would have been different. i don't want to talk about cover-ups, there's an awful lot of suspicion to goaround here, but these -- picked up the president's people. that in and of itself is not weird. as you know, our intelligence committees monitor drug dealers, potential terrorists all over the world and it's hashrdly shocking -- and foreign government officials, we monitor them too. and it's hard to see that one of -- and ordinarily that of course would be masked and there's amount of ways to keep that information from becoming public. but that's the course of business and i didn't see anything in adam schiff's

statement that there was something in this information that was crazy enough to warrant the midnight meeting at the white house. >> are things still stalled, i know schiff and nunes met yesterday to try to figure out a schedule and witness list. is -- i mean is your committee going to continue the investigation? >> we are. i certainly hope we are. you know the democrats all got together and one of the weird things about last week was that the committee didn't have any of its regular meetings, they were all cancelled. but on friday, we all got together -- i should say thursday we all got together and we all agreed unanimously that we want this investigation to continue, we would like to get back to the oversight that our committee is charged to do. and we want democrats and republicans alike getting an explanation of what's -- and hearing from our chairman why he

chose to do what he did, those things will, i think, put us on track to be a functioning committee again and hopefully get the investigation restarted. >> congressman himes, thank you. a new white house ethics filing that ivanka trump and her husband jared kushner are still benefiting from their business empire while holding positions at the white house. ugh! heartburn!

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value of the business empire th ivanka trump and jared kushner have amassed, the story broke in "the new york times" just a short time ago. one key detail, although kushner is not in a manager capacity from his family's business, he is still benefitting from it. another revelation, ivanka trump will maintain a stake in the trump hotel just down the street from the white house. joining us, jesse drucker from

"the new york times" as well as richard painter who served as attorney general in the george best of your recollection administration. what have you been able to find out from the benefits? >> well, i think the thing that is of most interest is for the most part nothing has really changed as far as the economics of the kushner business for jared kushner, in other words he has given up his role as ceo, but economically he has still benefitted from the profits from the company as he did a couple of months ago before he joined the white house. >> so he has not divorced himself from making money from his companies just as president trump has not divorced himself from making money from the trump organization? >> correct, he has invested stakes in the venture capital with his brother and some real estate stakes including any

involvement in the 666 fifth avenue, which has been controversial because of conversations they had with a big chinese that looked like a significant multi-billion dollar bailout. but for the most part, jared's real estate company is basically the same as it was before he joined the white house. >> richard, you have been sounding the alarm on the trump family, the massive connections between business, do we know more about the holdings between the president's daughter and son-in-law? >> well, i think we we've known all along, which is they have substantial stake in real estate, particularly jared kushner does, and that means that both of them have a conflict of interest on any government matter that would affect the real estate business, including the regulation of real estate lenders, because a lot of

what goes on in real estate and on the regulation of banks and whether banks are willing to provide the money to real estate developers, we all know that that can become hand in hand with boons in the financial sector, and that often those end up both together. we need to keep them away from dodd-frank appeal, anything that would have financial services closely tied to the real estate business and of course, anything to do with that hotel. they should not get involved in any government matters, and anything involved with the hotel if ivanka trump will maintain an interest in that. but otherwise there is a conflict that is probably manageable, but they better be very, very careful. >> tim, the white house has made talk of the steps to ensure they would not have potential

business conflicts, essentially saying they have gone above and beyond. do you think they really have? >> no, anderson, it's not even about them going above and beyond, they have not even gone to acceptable. we are now at yet another revelation at how little distance there is between the trump family and the kushner family's private dealings as business people and their policy-making as public servants of the and the largest question it begs is what is motivating them? are they here to use the offices they inhabit to make money, or are they here to inhabit the offices they have to serve the public? and there are all of these uncomfortable collisions, 656, the skyscraper that jared kushner owns, it needs money, it's troubled, and certainly in the chinese case about getting

fresh lending to rescue that building. in the case of the hotel in washington even before these disclosures tonight we knew from the general services administration over a week ago they disclosed that ivanka trump was still an owner in that hotel. and they thought it was proper for the trumps to own it, even though the hotel itself has become a nexus for lobbyists, politicians, members of the white house staff and local competitors in washington field the hotel, it raises an issue because of the closeness to the president. >> and how much is really known about who is loaning money to the kushner corporation? who they're in business with and what foreign entities? is that all clear? >> well, no, that is an excellent question, it's not clear at all. that is the biggest issue, which kushner companies is highly reliant on outside investors, many of whom are from overseas,

and the lenders, and there is no disclosure of that even in these filings. we know about mortgages from public filings, none of which are referred to here. but we don't know anything about who the other equity investors are, or potentially who the non-bank and non-mortgage lenders are to these businesses. that is not addressed on the filings. for instance, we know that separately, the cooper company has four separate liens from a bank overseas. it is at issue as to whether it helped americans due to taxes in offshore bank accounts, and jared kushner is tasked with doing peace in the middle east. so it seems a clear conflict of interest to have a white house official doing negotiations in the middle east and in israel when the business that is benefitting him has very clear and significant financial relationships with the biggest

financial institution or the biggest bank in that country, which at the same time is the subject of a very serious investigation from the department of justice, and none of this, you would not know from the forms disclosed tonight. richard painter, timothy o'brien, much more ahead, including information on terrorist bombs and intelligence sources they may be able to evade common security screening methods hidden in computer laptops. we'll be right back.

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in the second hour of "ac360," what we're hearing about new laptops and bombs, and the airport security they're designed to defeat. cnn learned the intelligence on these devices is the same as the recent ban on the laptops in cabins on recent flights in the u.s. evan, what is the latest? >> well, anderson, cnn has learned that u.s. intelligence and law enforcement agencies believe that isis and other terrorist organizations have developed innovative ways to plant explosives and