>> all right, that sums its up right now. thank you -- yeah, quickly. >> lem just say this, donald trump is the only one that has bonded syria, under obama we lost 20% of our uranium, and the leaks that happened and the interference in the election happened under obama. >> got to go. thank you for watching, our breaking news coverage continues right now. new reporting in the "washington post," with potential lyre very serious implications. according to the post, jared kushner, the president's son-in-law, proposed setting up a secret communication with kremlin, not a figurative back channel. according to the washington post, this was a nuts and bolts setup, using russian diplomatic facilities and equipment.

"the washington post" reporter by lining the story for us. ellen thanks very much for joining us, the secret communications channel, your sources are telling you it was kushner who originally raised this idea, is that right? >> yes, that's right. according to sources who have reviewed intelligence collecting by use of intelligence agencies. jared kushner, proposed this secret secure channel at a meeting at trump power in december, with the russian ambassador. >> talk a little bit about this secret channel, this communications channel, it was going to, what, be based at the russian embassy in washington? >> that's what it sounds like, now, we caution that this is based on reporting by kislayak, up to the superiors in moscow. that reporting was captured on intercepts. and, you know, this could be russian intelligence agencies are known sometimes to put

disinformation into their feeds in order to sow confusion. intelligence officials exaggerate at point, but if this is true, it means kushner was seeking a secure channel during the transition period, with the government of an adversary that the intelligence agencies had concluded had meddled in the presidential election, to help donald trump get elected. >> what would be your understanding, why kushner exactly wanted a setup like this at the russian embassy? >> we don't know for sure why, whether indeed this is true, but apparently, the idea was to have a secure means of communicating, if that would be beyond, you

know, the reach of u.s. intelligence agencies or other intelligence agencies, will submit to keep their channel of communications very private. >> in other words, have a dialogue with the kremlin that the u.s. presumably would not be able to monitor or others in the u.s. intelligence agency, is that what you're suggesting? >> that's the suggestion, yes. >> i know before you publish this in "the washington post," you went to jared kushner, you went to the white house, you went to others to get their reaction. what are they saying to you? >> the white house has declined to comment, so we don't have any public reaction from them. >> what about jared kushner, have you spoken to his attorney, a former deputy attorney general in the clinton administration, what did she say. >> she referred our query to the

white house, and the white house declined to comment. >> the white house has declared to comment, jared kushner is declining to comment. but there's intercepted conversations between sergey kislayak, who's is russian ambassador to the united states, with top kremlin officials, alleging in that conversation that jared kushner met with him and proposed setting up this secret communications channel through the russian embassy in washington, that's the gist of your bomb shell report, right, ellen? >> you got it. >> ellen, from "the washington post," with us, about her reporting. there are some excellent people here, phil mudd, dana bash, former attorney general of the united states, michael mukasey,

phil mud, you worked at the cia, you know about these issues, you have read it now, you heard ellen, what is your reaction? >> you see thing over 30 years in washington, d.c., and you never think you'll be surprised, and history proves you wrong, this is not surprising, stunning, if this is true, let's step through a timeline, in the summer of 2016, somebody receives a presidential nomination, in this case, in the republican party, it's donald trump, he's cleared to receive top secret briefings. in early december, his son-in-law, if this report is correct, decides to go to the russian embassy, which has a primary responsibility of spying on america, and saying i want to subvert the american bureaucracy. >> there was actually a

conversation at trump tower, talking about establishing communications, outside the u.s. bureaucracy to talk to the russians, remember, less than a month later, president of the united states, president obama sang shctions the russians. remember, president trump during the preinauguration period about russian involvement in the elections, he sanctions the russians for this and says that the russians interfered with the american election, in all the things that we have seen since this russian investigation broke, i have never seen anything like it. >> you have seen plenty of opportunities for americans to have diplomatic back channels with other governments. this is different, though, this is actually having a back channel, but using the communications capabilities of that other government. >> let's be clear, a back channel means i want to have a conversation that's not available to the public, that the media will never see, we

have a campaign that's not in power yet, going to an adversary, this is not just using the communications of an embassy, this is communications with an adversary, which has just had its spies thrown out 269 united states, and saying i want to use your communications, which means i trust you more than us, you've got to be kidding. >> this is a very stunning report, once again if true. >> no question, i will say in terms of caution, and they know this in the "washington post" piece, but it's important to underscore the information that they're basing this on, are reports that the russian ambassador gave to moscow. meaning he talked about basically you're not going to believe what just happened, jared kushner, saying he wants to have russian communications that, information was gleaned by what kislayak, the russian ambassador told moscow.

so the caution i would say is that the russians are, you know, very good at smoke and mirrors and very good at understanding that the americans are listening, and the question is, whether or not kislayak knew that the russians were missing and inflated thark whatever to maker him look good, or to make jared kushner look bad, or just to throw them off their gairm. these reporters, these officials they talk to say, the history shows that the communications they listened to with kislayak tend to be pretty accurate. >> the silence from the white house from jared kushner's lawyers, they have plenty opportunity in the course of today to say this is a phony story, this is not true. they're not commenting on this at all. and that silence, as you and i know, dana, this is a very thunderous sign. >> it could be deafening, at the

end of the day, if this were a story that happened in a vacuum, it would be an overwhelm my god moment, it's not in a vacuum, it completely feeds into a narrative, not just a narrative, a very real and congressional simultaneous probe that are going on into what went on in the trump world during the campaign, but this was obviously after the campaign and it leaves a lot of questions unanswered, never mind straws being on the floor. >> michael mukasey, there's a lot certainly that we do not know, we're relying on this "washington post" reporting, but here's a question, wouldn't there be anything illegal about jared kushner wanting to protect his communications from the russians. >> i don't think it would be anything illegal, but let's take a step back, here is a report that is gotten from a communications source, ie, the

russians talking to the russians that say that jared kushner wants to communicate with us over what? a different one from the one that kislayak was using? i seriously doubt it. in other words, he is saying on a channel of communication that he has every reason to believe is going to be intercepted. that jared kushner wants to communicate with the russians over a communication channel that may also very well be intercepted. i don't know if that's true, but it sounds very surprising. >> there's a lot that sounds very surprising, as you and i know, there are u.s. officials who want to have back channel conversations with other governments, including some governments not all that friendly to the united states, but if you do it through their embassy, that's pretty surprising, here's the question, though, why wouldn't jared kushner's attorney, the white house, flatly deny this story if there is nothing there? >> i have no idea, and it may

very well be that they would prefer to talk in context about the entire issue of what they want -- what the fbi wants to talk to them about and what they don't, rather than swatting down individual stories, when i say swatting down, i don't mean any disrespect to ellen, who i know and like with and who i dealt with when i was in d.c. and who is a good reporter. this is as i pointed out over a line of communications that ambassador kislayak had every reason to believe was being intercepted. >> i want to get your reaction, you're a former federal prosecutor. >> this activity seems to be continuing to invite scrutiny, and more than just scrutiny, it invites criminal exposure. the term collusion is still a very nebulous concept. we haven't defined it or

attached it to a criminal content yet. the more scrutiny they give the actual deserved and warranted based on something like this. the more you're trying to have conversation where is you're trying not to alert the american public or the american government needs to have more than an eyebrow raised by intelligence investigators. the reason ckushner is no longer -- now that there's even more expoesz sure there, i did examine him to clam up a little bit and to be very guarded in any communication he gives from now on, which is odd considering that he had community skagss with the russians in a back channel. >> the only thing i can -- why he would want to have a russian communications channel with the kremlin, out of fear that if they did a u.s. channel, it would be intercepted, the u.s.

would know about that, is that during this transition, they didn't want obama administration officials to know about this back channel that he was establishing through kislayak, the russian ambassador to washington. >> the two words that come to mind is one that laura said, in talk to the white house, there's no evidence of collusion, going to the russian ambassador and telling him they -- to me that sounds an awful lot like colluding with an adversary. >> if this story is true, if in fact that kislayak was intercepted by the u.s. intelligence community as saying to his bosses in the kremlin, if he was just trying to sow some sort of discord and cause some troubles with the russians obviously do from time to time. >> they have done a really good job of doing in the last two

years. >> the other word is concealment, what is the pattern of all the facts we know. whether it's jeff sessions and not disclosing his contacts with the russian ambassador, whether it is michael flynn the former national security advisor to trump. the russian bank chief and apparently -- >> who's sanctioned by the u.s. >> who's sanctioned by the u.s. and now "the washington post" w reports, was looking for a back channel. we have a pattern of senior trump officials concealing conversations with essentially russian spies, and of course you throw into that the president of the united states, when he gets in office, taking several steps to shut down the investigation of all this. there's a lot of smoke right

now. >> as a lot of us remember, it's reported in "the washington post" story, in that early december meeting that donald trump had with ambassador kislayak, michael flynn who would become the president's national security advisor was in that conversation as well. >> michael flynn is tied into these meeting that are not disploeszed. as ryan was saying, this story today was big, but it's big because of all the other stories, within the last 24 hours, just to remind everyone, nbc news and cnn both had stories regarding continuing focus of jared kushner, related to his data mining capacity and his data mining program during the campaign. now you have those stories, you have then during the transition, his outreach, i think we're

using the term back channel incorrectly, actually i think this is -- back channel is i want to start talking about the cubans, so we go to the pope to do that. this is jared kushner going rogue, right? i think the only question now that remains is that we are so close, not to sound dramatic, but i will be, we were close to the oval office and i think the question is, why are all these guys doing this? are they doing it to protect themselves? or to protect donald trump? i think that we now have to ask that question. because there are too many people, too close to trump who he is projecting, who is trying to undermine, or change the figures, and i just don't know what their motivation is, sit personal dealings or is it something bigger. we are at the oval office door, we are at the senior adviser to the -- to president trump.

>> steve hall, you're a former cia russia expert, with this sort of alleged communication system, with the russians, through the russian embassy in washington, involving a top adviser to the president elect of the united states, would that be a. >> the short answer to your question is it would be unprecedented. i don't understand why it is that jared kushner, if he wants some sort of -- that's what we're calling it so i'll stay with that, why if jared kushner wants some back channel back to moscow, why would he go to the ambassador kislayak and say i want to use russian communications systems, all he has to do if he wants a secure and back channel conversation

with moscow, is to talk to ambassador kislayak, who would then turn around and secure russian communications, not open lines back to moscow, to communicate whatever it is that kushner wanted to keep to himself with the russian ambassador. all you got to do is talk to anybody in the russian embassy and it will get back to moscow, very securely. the only thing i'm troubled by is the whole idea of kushner talking to kislayak, the bottom line is in a couple of weeks after the inauguration, you go back to the timeline, he's got to talk to the russians anyway or to the trump administration, so unless it was something that was incredibly timely, that at that moment that other people in the trump team didn't want obama to know about and he desired some secret back channel, why

not just wait until you are actually in power. i don't know if there's something timely there going on. this is all kind of weird, and i'm not sure that i can explain it without getting more detail about how this all went down, it's very unusual. >> the fact that michael flynn was at that early december meeting with kislayak and jared kushner, and he emerged as the president's national security advisor. certainly during the transition as well. i assume in a meeting like that, he would be playing a significant role, right? >> sure, absolutely he would, and i think a lot has been made, perhaps too much, but a lot has been made about these early contacts with kislayak, protocol there's issues there, optics probably didn't look good, given what we knew and what we know about the russian intention to mess with u.s. elections, but at the end of the day, these people were going to be in power, the

trump team to include michael kushner were going to be in office, and perhaps it was a little inopportuinopportune. >> i want to have everyone stand by, there's a lot more happening, we're following the breaking news. also coming up, why the fbi director, the former fbi director james comey, let a piece of russian intelligence, which he knew to be fake drive his decision to denounce hillary clinton's email habits and seriously affect the presidential election. ♪

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jared kushner suggested setting up a means of secretly communicating with moscow. we're back with our panel of experts, and you have never seen or heard anything like this. you have had a chance to digest this bombshell a little bit more. >> i served under him, he's one of the best in the business, he raises a very significant point, we're seeing a bit of this, we're not seeing the other side of jared kushner, and we're

listening to an ambassador who has been involved with the government and who's inserting fake news. that said, we have an environment here where the president of the united states after the election raised serious questions about the intelligence community, both the fbi and the cia, and said repeatedly that the u.s. intelligence community, under the repeated direction of the former president of the united states intercepted trump tower. because as an intel professional, you say this is hollywood, this simply can't be true, you say what is the environment in which somebody would have made this decision? the president saying don't trust the american side, especially the intel guys, maybe that leads somebody to say let me set up a separate channel. >> and they're trying to protect whatever channels they're talking about, the russians, if in fact the story is true,

getting out to obama administration officials, that the trump transition team did not trust. can you come up with any good reason why the top advisor to the president-elect, his son-in-law would want or need -- >> it's pompbltd that you modify your question with a good reason. it's tough to come up with a good reason. i think that phil mudd is on to something, and he used to brief me every morning. he points out the atmosphere at the time. as candidate trump was saying at the time. they wanted to have closer ties where the russians, whether that was wise or unwise, a lot of people thought it was unwise, and i was one of them. and phil was another one. that was what they wanted and they believed that they couldn't trust the intel community, and it may very well be that somebody without a great deal of experience in government,

remember that jared kushner is, what, in his 30s? >> he's 36. >> might have thought this was a good idea. >> michael flip was a former director of the defense intelligence agency, he had an enormous amount of experience, three-star general, an enormous amount of -- he was at that meeting in early december at donald trump tower as well. you're assuming that this was said in the presence of michael flynn. i don't know if i would make that assumption, michael flynn is the subject of a criminal investigation. jared kushner, they wanted questioned in connection with a counter intelligence investigation that is focused not on him, but on what the russians were doing at the time during the election. so these are two really separate matters. >> quickly, judge mukasey, because jared kushner has also come under some criticism, as you know, because in his security clearance forms, he

didn't initially report his contacts with kislayak, the russian ambassador, hiss contacts with the russians, he later corrected that, but initially, he didn't. is that a problem? >> it's potentially a problem, but again, i don't know how many meetings he had and with whom, if that was one of a series of 50 or 60 meetings, and they were relatively quick, it's entirely understandable why he would not have referred to it. i would harken back that attorney general sessions testified at his hearing. he was account about -- it turned out that one of the meetings he had, one of 20 or 30, with foreign ambassadors, was with the russian ambassador. and people homed in on the fact that he didn't mention any of them. we need to know the context in which this occurred, we need to know how many meetings there

were. >> fair enough, everybody stay with us, we're going to continue to cover the breaking news, the contact between jared kushner and another russian figure, the ceo of a sanctioned russian bank, a graduate of a russian school or spires, we're getting new information on that, stay with us. and take it from me, every step counts. a bayer aspirin regimen is one of those steps in helping prevent another stroke. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. z286nz zwtz

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snchs our breaking news, "the washington post" is reporting that back in early december, jared kushner and russian ambassador to the united states sergey kislayak, opened a channel between the donald trump transition and the kremlin, contact that kushner had with

another russian was also drawn -- because of what the man does, who he knows and a very specialized education he got, namely how to be a russian spy. more from 360's randy kaye. >> this is the man jared kushner met with in december 2016. just a month after kushner's father-in-law trump was elected president. his name is sergey gorkov. he graduated from a russian academy that trains people to work in russian security forces. here's how the white house explained the nature of kushner's meeting with the banker. jared did a job wiin the campai,

he want gts to be very clear about who he talked to. >> in a statement, the bank said, it's executives met with kushner, not as a representative of the white house, but as head of kushner companies. the ban said it's leaders met with numerous financial executives as it developed a new strategy for the bank. >> it's interesting that the russians seemed to contradict what jared kushner said when he said that he was acting as a liaison between the campaign and foreign governments, so i'm sure that that will be an issue, that we'll try to clarify. >> reporter: what exactly was discussed between kushner and the banker remains a mystery. though jared kushner is going to answer the senate intelligence committee's questions about another meeting that he had with russian ambassador sergey

kislayak. it was kislayak that suggested kushner meet with the russian banker. the in fact that kushner did not mention these on his security clearance forms may be a topic of inquiry. when kushner wmet with gorkov h was talking about financing for a pricey manhattan real estate project. investigators will want to know what was said. >> i have a feeling that it related to financial issues, since it involved a russian bank. but to his credit, he's willing to testify on that issue, and i hope that the committee really thoroughly looks at what the regions were why he engaged in that conversation. >> seems that jared kushner, who rarely speaks beyond a whisper in the president's ear may soon

be called on to do a whole lot of talking. randy kaye, cnn, new york. >> and our breaking news, late reporting in the "washington post" in an early meeting with the russian ambassador, sergey kislaya kislayak, set up a secret communications with moscow. you were a former cia russia expert, can you just give us a sense of the confidence level that u.s. intelligence officials have about the surveillance in general that they have on russian officials. it's not like they're just getting bits and pieces, it seems pretty constant. how reliable is it? >> i don't want to give away, too much information that the russians themselves would be useful, but in general, i would agree with your assessment, wolf. as more is coming out, it is clearly that the fbi has pretty good coverage of the russians in

washington, something i think that the russians themselves are aware of. the meeting between kushner and the head of veb bank is interesting and i would argue more interesting than perhaps the stuff that is couched as he is a member of an incoming administration reaching out to foreigners in this regard. i have more concern about whether or not he's talking about a foreign bank as a businessm businessman, than i actually go as a counselor to the president in an incoming administration, but it's clear that the fbi is keeping close tabs on this as they should. >> and dana, one thing about jared kushner, he's not just some low level official, not just a relative, he is a senior adviser to the president of the united states.

if they were colluding durl the campaign, then why would they need a back channel. if jared kushner and others were colluding, there are lots of it's, there's lots of questions here being raised, again, the big one, the big sort of red flag to me is, again, why on earth would kislayak be telling moscow this in a communication that he clearly knew that the u.s. was going to be able to monitor? >> those are good questions, and apparently in this conversation that the u.s. intercepted,

kislayak, the ambassador himself thought this is pretty strange that he would want to use a russian embassy communications channel. >> we should keep in the forefront of this conversation that this is this question hanging over this whole conversation of are the russians just playing all of us, is this come kind of massive misdirection in this communication, although i don't quite understand what incentive the russian ambassador would have to kind of blow up jared kushner, this is someone who frankly was reaching out to the roush shans so why would they want to spread misinformation about him. that aside, this is just another piece of a story about a white house that is continuing to hired, concede, conversations and contacts with the russians and we don't have a good understanding of why. why did jeff sessions not disclose his meeting with the russian ambassador? why did michael flynn lie to mike pence and others in the white house about his conversation with kislayak, why

did jared kushner if this report is right, try and conceal a communications channel with the russians and is extremely, according to all of our national security analysts an odd way, why did the president of the united states thwart the fbi investigation into all of this. we have an enormous amount of, frankly i don't see any other word for it of cover-ups and concealments, if there is a crime or what they were trying to conceal. >> i need to take another quick break, we're going to get reaction from the donald trump team to the breaking news, the president made it through the g7 summit in sicily, without dropping any verbal bombshells and he's dodged reporters questions as he has all week, a lot more on the breaking news right after this.

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the breaking news we're following, "the washington post" reporting that jared kushner, the president's son-in-law and senior advisor proposed set up a secret communications withes no cow. with the russian ambassador to the united states, sergey kislayak. this comes after president trump is winding down his first

foreign trip overseas. first of all, jim, what response have you gotten from the president's aides when it comes to these latest reports on jared kushner? >> reporter: well, wolf, we can tell you the white house is just not commenting on this latest report on kushner. and one of the president's top advisers was briefing reporters earlier this week and he kuwait off t cut off that question and it's been like that all week long, the white house has simply dodged our questions throughout this week, even after they had to clean up after the president when he made some comments to other foreign leaders. >> at the g7 summit in sicily, the italians put on quite an air she, flying almost as fast as the r -- congressional candidate

charged with misdemeanor assault after a reporter accused him of body slamming him. with the russian investigation hanging over him, the president spent another day of his foreign trip dodging reporters' questions, instead the white house trotted out foreign economic adviser who was forced to damage control. >> we're not lower iing -- if anything to get tougher on russia. i think the president is looking at it, right now we don't have a position. while aids snapped this picture of cohen talking to reporters, the briefing was actually off camera and closed to the white house press corps. the white house also did some cleanup after quoting what was told to european leaders in a pub kwalicatio

publication. the germans are bad, very bad, selling -- telling reporters offcamera, he said they're very bad on trade, but he doesn't have a problem with germany. >> the president has largely avoided taking questions all week long, a break there what his predecessors has done on all of their overseas trips. >> i thought it give you a chance to fire off questions now. >> mt. etna is blowing smoke, there have been no diplomatic eruptions, like the president pushing past nato allies in brussels. here the president signed an agreement to -- the president is still getting a handle on one major issue, whether the u.s. will stay in the paris climate change agreement, just ask garry cohen. >> his views are evolving, he came here to learn and he came here to get smarter.

>> jim, any chance we'll hear from the president tomorrow? any chance he'll hold a news conference wrapping up his first overseas trip? >> reporter: no such luck, we just got the schedule from the white house tomorrow, and there is no press conference scheduled. we should tell you, it is just sort of unprecedented to see a total denial of access to top white house officials on camera, on the record, all week long, we barely heard from the president obviously as you saw in that piece, that's been the case all week along. we have not seen white house press secretary sean spicer in any kind of on the record with reporters, we were just simply shut out of any kind of press access, it's been observing the president taking a foreign trip overseas without any chance of

asking any hard questions, obviously, he's not going to be able to continue that back in washington, when he gets back home, he's going to have to answer these questions about the russia investigation that will be hanging over him just as soon as he arrives back at the white house. >> jim acosta in sicily for us at the g7. thank you very much. here's a question, why did the former fbi director comey act on fake intelligence when he took action on him clinton's emails, many believe it impacted her presidential campaign. but our past is just that, past. we are pioneers. so our greatest achievements can't lay behind us, because our destiny lies ahead. that's what it means to drive the world forward. that's what it means to dare.

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until "the washington post" secret channel to moskow story broke a few minutes ago, this was our lead story, deciding perhaps a defining moment in the presidential campaign, the fbi director at the time james copy announcing there there would be no charges against hillary clinton, then proceeding to scold her publicly about her e-mail server. many believe it weaponinized the issue and sealed secretary clinton's fate. now they believe the key piece of information was not only bogus but that he knew it was

bogan. cnn's dana bash is back with us. she's got late breaking details. update our viewers now. >> well, cnn has learned and we've been reporting today that fbi director james coy knew a related piece of information was fake, but he felt he needed to take action anyway because he was concerned if the information became public, it would undermine the investigation and the justice department itself. now, this is according to multiple sources according to my colleagues. now, these concerns were a major factor in comey deciding to publicly declare that the clinton probe was over last summer without consulting then attorney general loretta lynch. you may remember earlier this week "the washington post" reported on its intelligence and doubts. it was a stark example of how russian interference impacted decision making at the highest

levels during the 2016 campaign. the russian related issue claimed to show that then attorney general loretta lynch had been compmized because reported e-mails between then dnc chair saying that lynch would mick the fbi probe go away. now, according to one official in classified briefings comey told lawmakers he was afraid the information would drop and undermine the investigation. but comey did not tell lawmakers that he doubted the accuracy of that information even in a classified setting. now, according to sources close to comey the fbi director felt that the all of a suddenty of the information. >> if you remember in public comey said the reason is breaking protocol and having that news conference in july is because the former president, bill can clinton, wound up going

to then attorney general loretta lynch before and having that conversation which see considered to be inappropriate. >> that's right. that is the public explanation. he did that as soon as and as late as may 3rd. the last time he testified as fbi director. but in his sessions, comey didn't even mention that incident. instead he told lawmakers this russian investigation was the unusual step he took to announce the probe. if you think about the chain of events it help setoff, when comey held the press conference in july 2016 announcing no charges against clinton he also took the extraordinary and many people say inappropriate step of calling her extremely carealize. clinton aides think her reputation was damaged with voters and she never recovered from that. and dissemination of fake

information is still a major issue. multiple sources tell us that russia is still trying to spread false information in order to cloud and confuse ongoing investigation. >> sure they are. thank you, very much. appreciate it. coming up we'll have the latest on tonight's breaking news. a report that after the election jared kushner proposed setting up a secret communication channel between trump's transition team and the kremlin. we'll take a closer look at what it all means. that's coming up. looks like soy needs a new network. when i got this unlimited plan they told me they were all the same. they're not. verizon has the largest, most-reliable 4g lte network in america. it's basically made for places like this. honey, what if it was just us out here? right. so, i ordered you a car. thank you. you don't want to be out here at night 'cause of the, uh, coyotes. ok, thanks, bud. bye. be nice to have your car for some shelter. bye. when it really, really matters, you need the best network and the best unlimited. just $45 per line for four lines. how if guests book direct ater, choicehotels.com and stay twice

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