feelings about marketing and his own personal brand. but he's not getting it done on this bill. >> look, i don't think -- i think one of the big problems here is i don't know he has a philosophy about what should happen on health care. i don't think he's into the details. he wants a win. >> he wants a win. >> he promised his base that he would get rid of obamacare. i think for him personally destroying what he sees as a legacy of his predecessor seems important, but the details don't matter to him. that makes it very difficult to bring people together. i remember president obama meeting with republicans and democra democrats, and he had a goal in mind and he worked with each side -- there were 160 republican amendments in the affordable care act -- to try and arrive at some kind of consensus. so you don't see that today. the country is poorer for it. there are a lot of people desperate for some sort of solution here. >> well, maybe -- that's our

best hope -- is the desire of the american people for something better and something real to come out of it, maybe that may light a fire. >> in democracy, that's supposed to be the answer. >> we'll see. ax, always appreciate it. >> good to see you. good to see you here. visit more often. >> we say the same to you, our international viewers. it's good to have you. please come more often. cnn num newsroom is next for yo. let's continue. >> we know the fight is not over. that's for sure. >> it's going to take a few weeks to figure out something we can all agree on. >> this is more than a mean bill. this is a destructive bill. >> i believe we can get to yes. >> stop the sabotage of the affordable care act. >> we're getting very close, but for the country we have to have health care. >> there are a lot of disturbing elements to this story relative

roger stone. >> he brags about his friendship with julian assange. >> this is "new day" with chris cuomo and alisyn camerota. >> alisyn is off, clarissa ward joins me this morning. great to have you. >> great to be here. >> big news this morning. senate republicans have spent years promising something that sounded simple, we will repeal and replace obamacare. but it isn't simple. it was never going to be simple. now that reality has divided the party on that signature pledge. majority leader mitch mcconnell, the famed dealmaker forced to delay a vote and try to rework a plan. president trump's deal making skills are going to be put to the test. nine republican senators publicly oppose the bill and for very different reasons. meanwhile, long-time trump associate roger stone agreeing

to testify next month before a house panel investigating russia's election interference. stone is expected to challenge the testimony of former clinton campaign chairman john podesta who already met with the same investigators. also there's another warning from the white house to the syrian regime about chemical weapons. we have it all covered as always. let's begin with cnn's suzanne malveaux live on capitol hill. suzanne? >> reporter: good morning, clarissa. the future of the senate health care bill is far from certain. senator majority leader mitch mcconnell dramatically changing, lowering his expectations from before promising there would be a vote by the end of the week to now saying he hopes to make 50 people feel more comfortable, in his words. the house was able to resurrect their bill in the spring. and the big question now is whether or not the senate can do the same. >> if we don't get it done, it's just going to be something that

we're not going to like, and that's okay. and i understand that very well. >> senate republicans again reworking their health care bill after another stinging setback to the gop's seven-year effort to repeal and replace obamacare. >> we will not be on the bill this week, but we're still working toward getting at least 50 people in a comfortable place. >> reporter: senate majority leader mitch mcconnell working to work over the nine republican senators currently opposed to the bill after being forced to scrap a vote this week. >> either republicans will agree and change the status quo or the markets will continue to collapse and we'll have to sit down with senator schumer. >> reporter: president trump convening republican senators at the white house to discuss the path forward, flanked by two key skeptics of the bill. >> we're getting very close. >> reporter: the president, who has largely remained on the sidelines, optimistic despite fundamental divisions within the

party between conservatives and moderates. >> the central focus needs to be on lowering premiums. the current draft doesn't do nearly enough to fix that problem. >> i have so many fundamental problems with the bill that it's difficult for me to see how any tinkering is going to be satisfy my fundamental and deep concerns. >> multiple senators voicing concern over this attack ad commissioned by a pro trump super pack against vulnerable republican senator dean heller because he's against the senate bill. >> if you're opposed to this bill, we are opposed to you. >> reporter: sources tell cnn heller raised the issue with the president himself after mcconnell personally reached out to white house chief of staff reince priebus calling the ad a stupid move that set the cause back significantly. >> i was amazed and appalled to learn that any republican group

would be running negative ads against dean. >> we know the fight is not over. that is for sure. >> reporter: senators expected to take heat from their constituents when they head back home for the july fourth recess. >> i i'm an angry constituent! >> sit on down. you're done! >> some members have town halls and some don't. we'll see what happens. >> reporter: get ready. there will be a number of prominent medical associations and advocacy groups that will also be lobbying republican senators over the break. it's far from certain if the extra time the republicans have will garner support for the bill, whether or not there will even be significant changes to the legislation. >> people coming at it with problems from very different directions. suzanne, thank you very much. another big story this morning, president trump's long-time confidant, roger stone, set to testify before a house panel in a closed door hearing next month

about rush y's election interference. this comes one day after the same committee grilled hillary clinton's former campaign chairman john podesta. cnn's joe johns live with more. podesta was a closed-door meeting as well. roger stone wanted it to be public, of course. >> reporter: that's right. closed-door session for roger stone. that's going to come in late july. the significance of this, chris, is house investigators are now digging down into one of the more mysterious avenues of russian interference in the 2016 election. they are now looking into the question whether that long-time ally of president trump, roger stone, somehow had fore knowledge that damaging information was going to come out about the hillary clinton campaign including the e-mails of clinton campaign chairman john podesta who also appeared in closed session before the committee just yesterday. roger stone, of course, denies that he had any fore knowledge.

he did issue a statement which, among other things, referred to podesta's testimony which las not been made public. that statement says, i'm confident that podesta most likely repeated his lie that i knew in advance about the hacking of his e-mail, and i am anxious to rebut this falsehood. i'm still unhappy that my testimony will not be in public, but believe it's more important to resolve the question of russian collusion with the trump campaign which i believe was non-existent. after podesta's committee appearance, by the way, he did at least refer to the obama administration's handling of russia's interference and essentially refused to say there was anything wrong with it. chris and clarissa, back to you. >> let's bring in cnn political analyst david gregory, associate editor and columnist for realclearpolitics a.b. stoddard and and cnn reporter chris

cilliz cillizza, author of "the point with chris cillizza." david gregory, what happened with mcconnell? we didn't see this coming their way. we knew there would be pressure. there's belief mcconnell could get it done. he's famed in his reputation for being able to get his ducks in a row. how big a blow is a delay? >> it allows the opposition to grow. once the senators go home, there's organized opposition against them. more light in the process. it was a mistake to have more light. they thought they could write it privately, work out some of the differences and move quickly. we've seen in the obamacare fight that the more public pressure came, the more difficult it was. of course, they had to get 60 when they were dealing with obamacare. it was party line vote there as

well. there's a lot of difficulty here because you're trying to reconcile two very different sides. i don't view a real conservative movement here that wants to repeal obamacare. you have more moderates who are frankly wary of the politics and the policy of taking back -- pulling back an entitlement that's already been given and cutting short the medicaid expansion, covering fewer people. it becomes very difficult to do that despite how many problems there are in the marketplaces. but i think we also have to pull back, and david axelrod was talking about the polarization we're seeing in this health care fight and in washington. true. but maybe, just maybe the process might work the way it's supposed to, which is you get to a place where you don't achieve what you want from a conservative perspective, you have to start dealing with democrats. maybe you might get to a more constructive place of dealing with some of the problems within obamacare that have to be addressed. this is bigger than politics because the policy has so much impact, is so complicated to

implement over time. >> chris, given what david is saying there, do you think -- can humpty dumpty be put back together again, or is this bill dead? >> short answer i don't know, which is the answer to everything in the donald trump era. when people ask me for predictions, i say i didn't think the guy who is the president would be the president. take that as a caveat. it always can be until it's officially dead. it's not officially dead. i'd be in the skeptical camp, clarissa. david mentions this. the longer a complex piece of legislation sits out, the more your political opponents can pick at it, can point things out, can hammer you on things like the cbo report. to me what you would need is not really tinkering around the edges. you would need significant change to get the cbo score, particularly as it relates to

the uninsured down. now, what's hard here is, i'm talking about a political calculation. these are people's lives, right? is 15 million uninsured better politically than 22 million? yes. is it enough? maybe. it's still 15 million more people that won't have insurance. that's a very hard thing to talk about in raw political terms and for a member of congress to be okay with. i am not sure that you have -- you're able to find a bill that gets rand paul and susan collins. if you lose the two of them, you can still pass it. in the centrist column, lisa murkowski, rob portman, dean heller. the math is very difficult. always has been, always will be, almost no matter what you do with that bill. >> you're starting to have a discussion within the republican ranks about taking a different

approach to this like we're seeing with the immigration debate. instead of doing one huge omnibus bill, maybe you start taking it on in parts. we'll have to see if they keep going in that direction. a.b., the main problem with this situation is it doesn't live up to its name. it's supposed to be a better law than the aca, but it's not covering as many people, so that's not better, and it's not lowering premiums the way they said it would. so that's not better. this is a fundamental proposition, no? >> right. what we keep sort of trying to debate -- discuss this and analyze this as one big bill, but remember, so much of this is really a two-track process. you look at the club for growth and the conservative movement that is opposed to this bill because it is truly not a repeal over obamacare because it keeps so much of it, because it's still going to provide a real safety net from government and allow government to sustain a

role in the health care industry. then you see people on the business side saying we need a win. you see president trump saying we just need a win. they're not so concerned about what's in it. they're concerned if the republican party cracks up and can't do this, they can't move on to tax reform. so that's why you see some shakiness in the market and some concern here that this is really going to go to pot. if you look at the policy versus the politics, it's an amazing turn of events from just back in the seven years when they were promising to repeal it root and branch, they really wanted to. now you actually have republicans defending medicaid. this is a totally new turn, given an entitlement they now can't take back. when they promised this was going to lower premiums, you have susan collins or rob portman from ohio saying, wait a minute. it might lower premiums but we're going to offer these people less than what they have, they're going to have to pay

more out-of-pocket. they're going to look at this care a year, year and a half from now and say this is worse for me. forget that you've ripped away the mandate and people have to buy what they don't want to buy, it's really about people that have something that can't have it now taken away by the mean republicans. the whole debate within the party has shifted. that's where you see the dissidents from president trump who really wants a win, is not really focused on what's in it, and the two factions of the moderates versus the conservatives. they're fighting it out both on politics and policy and that's why i don't think they can come up with a solution. >> we have a new tweet from the president who says some of the fake news media likes to say i am not totally engaged in health care. wrong. i know the subject well and want victory for the u.s. david, that's been the allegation, that the president has not been engaging in the nuts and bolts of this.

do you think that's a fair assessme assessment? >> in terms of the last part of his tweet, i think that's absolutely right. he does want the change he's been campaigning for and advocating for. my information from people who have met with the president along the way in this process is that he did not have a level of depth and understanding of the complexities of this bill throughout that process. >> he said as much, david, as you remember. >> turns out health care is pretty complicated. >> he didn't realize it was complicated. he's going to have to accept that criticism and live with that. he was not in a position to uniquely drive the process. he's also made a decision and i think it's a debatable decision and there will be defenders of it, that he wants to let congress do its thing and negotiate this the best it can. he comes anywhere he can. now, to the extent he had people associated with him and the party hammering dean heller in nevada, that was a huge tactical

mistake and sewed more chaos within the republican caucus. he has to own that as well. he's a confident guy, as we know. he was out there saying yesterday meeting with people this may not work and it won't be a good outcome. i just keep coming back -- over the past many months, remember what former speaker john boehner said, this will never get done because republicans will never agree on health care. that's a philosophical issue. that's a legitimate principled division within the republican party and the democratic party about how government gets involved and administers these kinds of regulations in the individual market. >> chris, go ahead. >> a quick fact check on that while we're doing it -- not on david, on donald trump. the fake news media didn't -- he's responding to a piece in "the new york times" that maggie haberman who was on earlier with us had a part in, about the

meeting with republican senators and how it went. the allegation that he is light on details comes from a republican senator. now, not a named republican senator which i guess would qualify as fake news in donald trump's mind, not mine. that's not from the news media. that's from a republican senator. second, donald trump has said as much repeatedly, that he's the big picture guy. he's not the in-the-weeds guy. look at his career outside of politics. he's the face, he's the face of the brand. he doesn't do the intricacies of the deals. he comes in at the end, closes them, shakes hands and goes on tv and talks about them. this is not inconsistent with who he's been his whole life. >> the closer picture remains to be seen. a.b., chris, david, thank you. you're going to get more depth of perspective of what the president means in this process

because we have these people on, on your screen right now. they represent the full spectrum of political belief. you've got republicans against the health care bill, senators ron johnson and shelly moore capito, and they'll tell you why. you have democratic senator ben cardin, independent senator angus king. they'll talk to us about what the president means in this process and what their reluctance is on this bill. >> will democrats be part of the willing discussion given the growing republican opposition? we'll be asking senator ben cardin. that's coming up. ir way. meningococcal group b disease, or meningitis b, is real. bexsero is a vaccine to help prevent meningitis b in 10 to 25 year olds. even if meningitis b is uncommon, that's not a chance we're willing to take. meningitis b is different from the meningitis most teens were probably vaccinated against when younger. we're getting the word out against meningitis b. our teens are getting bexsero. bexsero should not be given if you had a severe allergic reaction

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so isn't it time our networks did too? introducing america's largest, most reliable 4g lte combined with the most wifi hotspots. it's a new kind of network. xfinity mobile. senate republican leaders have delayed the vote on their plan to repeal and replace obamacare, but democrats say the fight isn't over yet. our next guest warns delay doesn't mean defeat. joining me now is democratic senator ben cardin of maryland. thank you so much for being on with us. first of all, just your reaction to the delay. >> first, it's good to be with you. secondly, i think it does give more time for the american people to understand exactly

what was in the republican bill. i do hope democrats and republicans can come together now and deal with the challenges that we have under the affordable care act. as has been pointed out, we want to get the premium costs down and there's ways we can do that in, increase subsidies for low income families, look at ways to have predictable fund sharing that has caused in my state the premium increase to be larger than they need to because they don't know if the payments will be made. >> we heart mitch mcconnell say the democrats are not interested in develop rating or working with the republicans. has there been reluctance on behalf of your party to work more closely with republicans on this issue? >> well, what we won't agree to, we're not going to agree to cuts in the medicaid program that hits our most vulnerable people. we're not going to agree on tax cuts for the very wealthy. we want to improve the

affordable care act. we don't want to make it worse. look, when we need more competition, let's look at ways to get more competition, such as public options similar to what we have under medicare. let's also look at ways for bringing down the overall cost of health care, take down the costs of prescription medicines which we know is way too high in america. look at delivery systems that can help save money by the way we deliver care many america. democrats and republicans have worked together on this issue in the past and we should work together now in order to make our health care system stronger. >> yet, there seems to be have been this resistance for democrats to get more involved. let me ask you specifically, if this bill falls in defeat, what steps will the democrats take to work with the republicans to come up with a plan that everyone can agree on that actually helps the american people? because right now the perception is that this is politics over policy. >> i think what we are insisting

upon is we're not going to move in the wrong direction. we're not going to cut the medicaid program that's just going to knock people off of coverage and make it more difficult for our states and make our most vulnerable people more vulnerable to health care costs and not being able to get care. we're in the going to do that because doing it solely for the reason of giving tax cuts for the wealthy. where we can agree is make the system work better by finding ways for more competition, reduce the cost in the individual marketplace. that's the major problem. it's interesting, in my state, my largest insurer says the reason why their premium requests were so high in the individual market was because of things that the trump administration did, the uncertainty on the cost sharing and not enforcing the individual mandate. there's been some self-inflicted problems in the affordable care act that the republicans have reported. we don't want that to happen. let's see how we can build on the success of the affordable care act. >> we'll see. i want to shift on another topic

for a moment which is the white house's warning to the regime of bashar al assad in syria that they believe another chemical attack was being planned, that that attack would be met with a strong response from the u.s. what do you make of this? do you support this, and does the president need to think about renews or changing the wording of this aumf, the authorization of the use of military force? should congress be involved with this? >> a few points here. first, the use of chemical weapons is absolutely outrageous, and we must make it clear that that will not be acceptable and there will be a reaction on the use of chemical weapons. secondly, the president does not have authorization in congress to use force against the syrian regime. he should come to congress and get the authorization for use of military force. that's our responsibility, the congressional responsibility, and he does not have the authorization under a 2001

authorization that was used against afghanistan originally. third, we don't have a coordinated policy as relates to syria. he has not shared that with the american people, and he's not shared that with congress. he has to come to congress and the american people and tell us what the game plan is. how do we get to a resolution? there's no military victory for the united states and syria. we no ed the parties in syria to come together. assad must leave. we need a leader that will represent all the communities and we have to focus on getting rid of isis in that region. >> i wanted to ask you quickly as well, u.s. ambassador to the u.n. nikki haley saying if it happens again, we won't just go after the regime, but go after their backers in the form of russia and iran. do you think that's part of the 'em tus here? do you see this administration as wanting to go after iran specifically i'm thinking? >> i don't know what they mean by that. if we're talking about a larger military engagement of u.s.

troops in syria, that's a very serious matter and we need to have a game plan. we don't have a game plan. as i've talked to experts in this area, they tell me there is no military victory. i don't know how you can win a military victory, particularly with american ground troops there. i don't know exactly what they're talking about, but i don't want to creep into a military campaign in which there really is no military victory. >> okay, senator ben cardin, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. you have the democrat perspective there. of course, you have republican senators who are in the midst of their own struggle to come to grips with this bill. so now they have some time to think about it with their constituents. what changes will they ask for? we ask senator ron johnson next. looking at it. you may never even sit in the back seat. yeah, but maybe you should.

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the other side is saying all sorts of things before they even know what the bill was. this will be glat if we get it done. if we don't get it done, that's going to be something we don't like, and that's okay and i

understand that very well. >> president trump kind of warning republican senators pass a health care bill or live with obamacare. so what changes need to be made to the bill to win over senators who are against it? let's get after it. we've got senator ron johnson of wisconsin. he was at that meeting with president trump. he opposes the current bill. senator, always a pleasure to have you on "new day." thank you for taking the opportunity. what do you need to see in this bill and what do you think the chance is right now that you can get there? >> chris, again, let me correct the record. i've never said i oppose the bill and will vote no. i was against taking up the vote this week because we didn't have the information. let me break some news. the headline figure, 15 million americans would lose coverage. that's based on a march 2016 baseline a year and three months old. cbo actually has a january 2017 baseline, and one of the components, the individual

non-group market, there's no difference. according to cbo, 7 million out of the 15 million were out of the individual market. they were projected 26 million people had coverage. ? the new baseline, 19 million people will have it so there will be no people, if you actually compare this against a more up-to-date baseline to lose coverage, that's big news in terms of the debate. plus the senate bill with cbo saves another $200 billion in terms of spending or deficit reduction that. $200 billion would give us maneuvering room to find the votes. let me throw one last little fact at you. i keep hearing people talk about we're slashing medicaid. in 2008 we spent $200 billion on medicaid. this year we'll spend close to $400 billion. we've doubled it. other people saying our goal is to take people off coverage. we want premiums to come down so more americans can afford

coverage so the american taxpayer will have to pay less in subsidies. we want to save medicaid an stop mortgaging our children's future. the democrats and obamacare left us a big mess. it's not easy to fix. >> the argument is you're not getting it done. this bill doesn't bring premiums down in any realistic way. any way you want to term the reduction in funds to medicaid -- again, it's a political judgment, but a practical reality will be less money in the system, less money to the states, less match, less means. you'll have less people covered. you hear that from governors from both parties all over the country. >> less means spending less year over year. in this projection there's only one year where spending in medicaid goes down and then it progresses upwards. >> costing are going up. i know you're a businessman and you get the economic principles. >> let's talk about -- >> costs are going up. >> let's talk about the premium projections. cbo says the first year premiums

compare their baseline to be 20% higher. again, that's largely because we give people the freedom to choose whether or not they want to buy this grossly expensive obamacare now and they choose not to do so. the next year, it's 10% above baseline which means the second year already premiums are coming down. by the third year, premiums are 30% below the baseline. that's just by removing primarily one of those market reforms causing all that reduction in premiums. that's what i've been arguing, get rid of all the market reforms, give americans the freedom and insurance companies to design products people can afford that suit their needs and we won't be spending so much money on subsidies and people will have, in terms of net effect, in terms of premiums, they won't be harmed. we need information, and the beb bate on this thing has been completely distorted using incorrect information. >> two things about that -- first of all, one thing, i know you're not suggesting i'm using misleading information, right? >> no.

>> let me know what i'm saying is inaccurate. this whole fake thing needs to end and end now. tell me what i'm getting wrong. >> chris, i'm not accusing you. i'm talking about the fact people don't understand the 22 million and it was a wrong baseline. then the way the premiums are reported, you have to understand the way economists take a look at this and what's really happening. >> i get it. i'm trying to keep practical concepts. i know you're a businessman and i know where your head is on this and i know you're in good faith which is why i invite you on the show so often, i want your perspective on this. i on the premium side, let's take a look at that for a second because that's what you were talking about. this is from the cbo score, simple red and green arrows. i don't know if you can see it where you are. they go up the first couple years and then they start going down. there is a fundamental principle here, leaving the numbers to the side, you want to buy the insurance that just you need at that time. if you're young, you want really nothing as long as you can because you're healthy, thank

god. that's all fine, but you know that's not how insurance works. if you don't pool coverage and you don't have people, even if they don't need something specifically, adding their risk into that pool, it is really unaffordable for those who do need it. there is a little bit of a shared sacrifice principle for insurance costs to work. >> and the good news is you can actually pool those high-risk, those high-cost condition patients. >> that's expensive. that's expensive. >> but you can do it without driving up premiums on the individual market. i wrote an article in "the new york times" -- chris, let me finish. >> go ahead, senator. >> bill clinton was talking about these people that are busting it, working 16 hou60 ho week with premiums tripled and coverage caught in half. those are the forgotten men and women, those are the people we're trying to bring premiums down, you can do that without

collapsing insurance markets. look at the maine example where they had guaranteed issue, it drove the premiums up by double. then they instituted invisible high-risk pool and the premiums were cut in half according to one study. the bottom line is, we can do this but need the information. the problem in washington, d.c. is we talk policy absent and void of information. that was my problem with the process, is it started with all these policy arguments, void of any information. we finally have some information. one cbo score. i think this is going to give us an awful lot of latitude to get the votes. chris, i wish we were doing this on a bipartisan basis. i think it was a mistake saying we're going to do this partisan. that's where we're add. what we'll do is do our partisan bill, democrats do theirs. we're not going to fix all the problems. then maybe, maybe everyone will sit down and let's long-term fix the health care system, start controlling health care costs. you don't do that with a single payer system, you do it by

reinjecting consumer-driven free market competition. that's what restrains costs, improves customer service. free market system is a marvel, works in other areas of the economy. we need to reinject it into our health care system. >> senator johnson, i would be great to have more of these debates and great for them to be bipartisan. we always invite you to do that here on "new day." >> bring me into the studio, i'll have my charts and lay it out so it's understandable as possible. it's hard to understand. >> that's a guarantee. tell me when you want to do it. we'll do it three times. be well, senator. enjoy the break. >> thank you. a massive paralyzing cyber attack hitting businesses around the world. why there are concerns it may not be over just yet. we'll tell you about it. that's next.

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a global cyber attack crippling businesses around the world. the hacks have hit ukrainian ministries, banks and metro system and scarily, the chernobyl nuclear facility. it's spread to russia, u.k. and the u.s. there are concerns companies have not secured their networks.

>> there's a question as to whether or not they can secure their systems from hackers. how about a little sports news. the florida gators winning the college baseball world series. this is the first time in school history they've pulled that off. coy wire has more in the bleacher report. big feather in the cap. >> absolutely. florida now just the fourth school in history to have won titles in baseball, football and men's basketball. the gators are celebrating, but there are two lsu fans that need to be celebrated as well. during monday's game, dr. gary pochet father of pitcher saved an elderly florida fan's life. his heart stopped. they revived him and performed cpr until paramedics arrived. the score was close nearly the entire time. the gators scored four runs in the eighth. the gators win 6-1, sweeping the series and winning their first title in their 103-year history.

world series champion chicago cubs making a second visit to the white house today as they're in town to play the nationals. manager joe madden says it's voluntary for players and it has a lot to do with the fact that the rickets family have strong ties to capitol hill. chairman tom rick kits who donated to donald trump's campaign says he thinks it would be fun to have an unofficial visit with the team. the cubs visited chicago native president obama in january. there are multiple reports that knicks owner could announce that phil jackson is out as president of the knicks. cnn has been unable to confirm the report. we'll keep an eye on it. >> thank you, coy. why would republicans attack one of their own for opposing the health care bill. one pro trump senator was set to go. we'll discuss that next.

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better? yeah. good thing because stopping never crosses your mind. band-aid® brand. stick with it™ . this president is the first president in our history who has had neither political nor military experience, and thus it has been a challenge to him to learn how to interact with congress and how to push his agenda forward. >> maine senator, susan collins, trying to gently make a point that the president has a challenge when it comes to making things happen in

washington, d.c. how is that affecting the overall battle and how might it change going forward? we have david frum, senior editor and matt, formerly with george w. bush. the president tweeting this morning that the media has it wrong that he's not deeply involved, that he knows healthcare well and he just wants the united states to win. nobody questions that last proposition. hopefully every president wants the united states to win. do you believe that that is a true appraisal, what the president said or is it much more what susan collins was suggesting, this is him out of his depth and nobody is saying he's driving this process? >> generally compliments are more convincing when they come from other people rather than yourself. in this case, i don't think the problem is donald trump's lack of knowledge or understanding of the healthcare. the republicans were trying to do something just too hard.

doing something too ideology. this one is worn less by the president and more by the house and senate leadership. you do not take benefits away from tens of millions of people. i wrote that in 2010. i wrote that with the bill in the house and will be writing it through this year. the republican approach needs to focus on the things that are most difficult for republicans in the affordable care act, financing and burden on the elderly population but health coverage is part of american life. whether you think it was a good idea to extend it or not you cannot now take it away seven years later. >> unfortunately republicans ran for office saying obamacare should be repealed and eventually said it should be respelled and replaced.

conservatives will feel awfully hood-winked if all we heard about the deficiencies in obamacare and needed to be repealed and pulled out by the majority in its roots and when they get the white house and some backtracking by people like senator collins, maybe not so much. you can't have your cake and east it, too, there will be hell to pay if they don't pass some version of healthcare reform. >> i have a -- >> let me reiterate. my friends who are big believers in what you just said, it comes down to their desire to have something be better. they don't like where their deductibles are, don't like the policy configurations, choice, they want better and i know you factored that in the name of this bill on the republican side. it doesn't appear to be better. why put so much stock in the political promise of repeal and

replace instead of emphasizing they figure out better ways to deal with what's there? wouldn't that ultimately be most satisfying to your voters? >> actually, on this reconciliation bill, chris, you're right, you can only do so much according to the senate parliamentarian, why they're calling this step one, senator price has done 11 or 12 administrative acts and will do more to change obamacare. it's not just what we don't like about obamacare where republicans have been for seven years. it has to be about what we believe. i think we believe the best way to solve our healthcare problem is not grow the roles of medicaid, obamacare was in large part putting americans on medicaid. we want to get americans off medicaid on the individual market to buy healthcare plans. what republicans are trying to fashion is an off-ramp from medicaid to the private market to get better healthcare. >> david, that's the opposition, off-ramp to private healthcare

and the problem is you're dealing with a funding cut they don't have the money for. >> republicans say that but don't believe it. senator rand paul from kentucky the purest of the pure so he says. 450,000 kentuckians have gained coverage under the affordable care act. it is concentrated in the southeast part of the state where senator paul's vote is. he is getting 75, 80% of the vote. in those counties a fifth of the population will lose a fifth of the medicaid coverage if aca is repealed. >> matt is saying that's not true, david. >> i direct you to the atlantic article. i wrote those numbers, all fact checked. it's in the piece i will repost this morning, it is true. because it is true, rand paul is -- let me finish the sentence, is acting predictable way, talking right and voting

left. that's what senator mike lee is doing, the senators from arkansas will do, half the population that gained medicaid coverage under the aca is white. those are trump voters and republicans are not in fact going to take it away and that's why they're tripping over their own words as they carry this tray across the ballroom. >> what does david have wrong, matt? >> first, i think the specifics on the numbers is one of the problems with the cbo. ron johnson pointed it out. you're estimating the impact on healthcare policies we get it wrong a lot. it is complicated to know what people will do. i'll give you an example. in the most recent cbo analysis they talked about 15 million people the mandate goes away might choose not to get healthcare coverage. year after year as obamacare stays in place, people avoid the

mandate but choose not to continue healthcare coverage. i'd rather have a tax credit for somebody to buy the healthcare insurance they want than force them onto medicaid. medicaid is better than nothing. >> it doesn't help if you don't have enough money to pay the taxes that offset the subsidy. >> these are refundable tax across you get even if you don't pay income taxes. some republicans think it is too generous but the off-ramp they have chosen. >> that would be a subsidy. >> you make a really good point. the difference between a tax credit and -- >> the difference between what you pay in taxes and abatement thereof. if it's money in their pocket, that's something else. >> david, make a final point. >> you've gone down a rabbit hole that let's matt get away with too much. >> i think he's done a good job.

>> whether you think cbo has done a good job modeling the market for medicare. it's easy. it is a fact written into the law how many people will lose medicaid. matt may think it's better to get a refundable tax credit. rand paul who has to get re-elected in kentucky is defending the aca because otherwise his career is over. >> david and matt, thank you very much. >> thanks, chris. we're following a lot of news. a live interview with one of the new republicans who opposes the senate healthcare plan. why? we'll ask, you'll hear the answer. let's get after it. >> the big complicated subject, we're still optimistic. >> this was a disaster and i'm glad the american people were able to defeat it. >> the bill overall needs to look like a repeal bill. >> we have a chance to do something very very important.

>> no matter how the bill changes at the edges, it is fundamentally flawed at the center. several days before the exposure of john podesta's e-mail -- >> it's extremely important. >> they need to cooperate in the investigation of russian interference. the one person who seems to deny this intervention seems to be the president of the united states. good morning. welcome to your "new day". wednesday, june 28th. claressa is here today. >> how did i get so lucky. >> no. republicans are divided over the healthcare bill forcing senate majority leader mcconnell to postpone the vote insisting it is not dead, changes will