mexico is going to pay for it. he senses what works with his audience and he develops it further and further and further. by the end of the campaign, it was like a lynrd skynrd concert. we're talking this hour on consequence not disclosed until now. donald trump and vladimir putin had a second meeting, we're learning about now, and david gergen witnessed such meetings. donald trump jr. said, fake news story of secret dinner with putin is sick. all g20 leaders and spouses were invited to the chancellor of

germany. press knew. >> trump seems to have a misunderstanding of what is now being reported today, so what the press recently learned is that president trump and his russian counterpart vladimir putin spoke for a second time on july 7 in a previously undisclosed discussion at the end of that dinner during the g20 summit. we knew the actual dinner was going on, but apparently this is a conversation after the dinner, and a senior white house official told cnn this discussion was nearly an hour and only included president trump, putin and a russian translator. so president trump was alone. now, the white house is confirming this meeting today only after being pressed by reporters, and it said in the statement that this conversation took place in full view of other world leaders and their spouses at this dinner hosted by german chancellor angela merkel. anderson, this discussion came actually after that scheduled two-hour-long bilateral meeting earlier that day that was widely covered. the white house today seeking to

down pl do downplay the significance of the discussion, calling it perfectly normal. world leaders at summits often hold private discussions with other world leaders. however, when you look at the context, the discussion along with president trump's own posture raises questions. and also several former policy experts we've heard from, including dave gergen you mentioned, saying, meeting with a former adversary for this amount of time when it's just the president alone, they say that is not a typical, normal practice. >> you've also got new information about donald trump jr.'s meeting from 2016 at trump tower. >> that's right, we've learned the identity of the eighth person in trump tower in that meeting as ike kaveladze. he goes all the way back to 1989 with a russian oligarch and business associate of president trump. he was born in the soviet union, studied in moscow, is now a u.s.

citizen. he actually appeared -- take a look at this video. this is exclusively obtained by cnn. he's staying in the background highlighted, standing next to donald trump in the right there. this was in 2016 and later he was at the meeting with the agalarav family with rob goldstone who had promised incriminating information on hillary clinton before that e-mail exchange. his attorney said he attended that meeting thinking he would be needed as a translator. he said he never had any involvement with the russian government. he also said special counsel prosecutors have already reached out to his client seeking information, and he says his client is fully cooperating, anderson. >> pam brown, a lot of details. let's bring in the panel, kristin powers, james blow, david gregory, mike shields and fiona. does this seem normal to you, david gregory? the white house goes into detail that there was a two-hour

meeting with vladimir putin and makes a big deal to not disclose this? >> if it is a one-hour meeting, it is a big deal. that's a long time to talk. remember, right after that meeting, the president tweeted he had agreed with putin to do a joint cyber security operation, which was, i think, everyone agreed, one of the most ridiculous ideas anyone could come up with, and the president immediately backed off it after ma marco rubio and others denounced it. perhaps that goofy idea is something that came up in this dinner, but we'll probably never know because the only american there was the president. >> why not disclose this meeting if it was an hour-long meeting? >> yes, why not disclose it, and it's not like the white house thinks if you meet with president putin nobody is going to hear about it. >> why not with other people?

>> they spoke at the end of a dinner. someone said it looked like they were off on their own and not engaging with other leaders. it wasn't off secretly, it was a casual meeting, he was sitting next to melania. the president went over to talk to vladimir putin and engaged in a conversation with him that went on for an hour. i think it's a little extreme for us to somehow make this into a conspiracy that the president of the united states talked to the leader of russia at a dinner where other world leaders were at where he was seated next to his wife. that is something that sort of happens when you're president of the united states. >> actually, it doesn't. when you're president of the united states, you protect the presidency and you don't meet with somebody who is responsible for an attack on america without laying some kind of ground rules for how you're going to respond to that and say, well, i asked him about it and he denied it, so what are you going to do, get in a fist fight? now this white house who has a policy of not briefing the american people and keeping them informed and having briefings

ridiculously off camera and cutting out the entire way people get their information which was by video and television, now you're going to have a separate meeting. we should know the united states has been compromised by vladimir putin, this president seems compromised by vladimir putin, and nothing else, thought he was not vulnerable and now he's having secret meetings. i would like to know what was said and to what extent this president pushed putin on the fact that he tried to hack our election. >> also no u.s. interpreter. >> how many secret meetings do we have to learn about before we understand that it's not just the meeting is not normal, the presidency is not normal. no facet of this presidency is normal. and the idea that we should have to have drips and drabs of finding out there are four people at a meeting, now six, now eight people at a meeting. we have to pull teeth to get information out of these people. something is wrong.

if it was a positive interaction where he was furthering the u.s. interests, as much as he talked in the two-hour meeting about the american public, he would have, i think, say that he continued to press putin on whatever issues they were talking about in the one-hour meeting. but he didn't do that. he kept talking about when he was tweeting in the next day and the two days that followed the meeting, that he had the two-hour meeting that he had, he kept talking about what he had talked about, that he had furthered the u.s. interest. he said nothing about this other meeting. there is a problem here. there is a perception problem, and there may be an actual problem, but we don't know -- you know, 25 years of journalism experience from me, my antenna are on fire. i don't know what it is, i don't know what the accideacciden ext but when people try to hide something it genuinely means he had something to hide. >> how is he hiding it when he didn't have a secret meeting?

>> we do not know one thing that was said during that meeting and we'll never know. we'll never know. >> you brief reporters who cover the white house on what the president does. he doesn't go off and do things in the people's names without you. i don't know how you did things at the rnc, but when you cover the president of the united states, that's what you do. charles is exactly right. this is not normal, it's not appropriate and it's bad u.s. policy. you can't defend this. >> and the other leaders that were there were reportedly surprised and shocked when they saw the two of them together. all the photos in the past weaver seen with president bush and vladimir putin, you always saw someone else from the u.s. delegation in the photos, whether they were formal or informal. remember, this meeting took place when there was already controversy brewing with what lavrov said and what rex tillerson says. lavrov said, yes, he would not

interfere in the elections and tillerson said we just moved on to other subjects. >> do you think it would have helped to have someone briefed to help the president out? >> sure. if you're going to have a meeting that's an hour long, you probably should grab somebody. david's response started to cover white house briefings, the investigation, and this is what happens. we have a conversation that donald trump had with vladimir putin and now the pile-on begins. so the coverage -- >> it's not a pile-on. those things are all related. if you don't share with the american people what you do in the people's names, you have to brief the american people when you're the president of the united states. this president doesn't know foreign policy. he's uninformed. he's demonstrated that in other areas. >> now we're getting into what he knows on foreign policy. you can see how people who are watching the president watch the kind of coverage -- >> disingenuous is what you're saying. >> it's all related which is disclosure and transparency.

>> you're actually making my case for me. people that are watching this and they're trying to learn about what actually happened at the meeting, and then they see people sort of jumping to conclusions -- >> about being transparent. >> -- and they go on piling things about the president, you lose credibility when you want to talk about what actually happened at the meeting when you get that far down the road. >> i think what the problem is no matter who you are, how you see donald trump, you see the situation very differently. if this was president obama doing this, they feel more comfortable because for people who like president obama, they trusted his judgment, they trusted the fact he was watching out for american interests, and i think a lot of people are concerned that president trump has a very unusual relationship with vladimir putin, to put it nicely. and i think that's why some people might be suspicious about this and he hasn't been completely transparent. but on the other side, i think there are people who look at this and they trust president trump, saying he's allowed to have a conversation with him. >> he is allowed. i don't think it's people don't

like obama or don't like trump, it's that there are certain rules and customs that american presidents have operated by for many years in many respects. some of them i do think are related. a televised white house briefing. describing when a president meets with a foreign head of state. meeting with a foreign head of state with an american interpreter as well as a russian interpreter. >> i totally get your point, mike, but the white house made a big deal of the fact that the president spent two hours with vladimir putin. if that was important to them to show that, like, they had a substantive meeting, you would make the argument that an extra hour would actually further that idea. it wasn't just a two-hour meeting, we had another hour-long meeting. it seems like by not at least reporting this publicly that whether or not they're trying to hide or whether they made a mistake or incompetence or whatever it is seems odd. >> i don't disagree with you. they should have talked about

this is what happened. they should have valued something that sounded like it started off as a personal conversation that turned into a larger conversation. my point is i believe in a strong press. i believe that we have to have credibility in the media to cover the things that matter. if every single time something like this happens, the dial gets turned to 11, a litany of things get rolled in, now it's part of the russian investigation, people don't buy it. >> this was vladimir putin. he's under investigation for collusion. >> i'm trying to tell you how to talk to a huge group of americans and say, pay attention to the things that matter. the other things we're going to talk about them but don't blow them out of proportion. >> i appreciate you telling me how to talk to an audience, but this isn't just any leader. the president, including his son and senior adviser are under investigation for welcoming cooperation with the russians during the campaign. at the very least, you should be smart enough to disclose. i think you agree with that. >> mike, i agree with you. if everything is a crisis, if

everything is, oh, my god, look what he did this time, after a certain point it's like the boy who cried wolf. >> i think the suspicious one at th this meeting is o.j. simpson. he might be getting out. >> i wrote a book about this. i saw the tv series in which a very young jeffrey toobin was portrayed. the trump tower meeting, the newly identified eighth person in the room, all of that ahead. -richard, try to control yourself. -i can't help it. -and how about that aroma? -love that aroma! umph! -craveability, approved! -oh, can i have some now?! -sure! help yourself. -wait, what? -irresistibly planters.

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talking about the latest russian revelation of the meeting between donald trump and vladimir putin at the g20 summit, coupled with the meeting between donald trump jr., paul manafort and jared kushner. i sat down with senator richard blumenthal to talk about all this. >> this is part of that pattern of concealment beginning in june but going through even the period before and after the election and the inauguration. >> back now with the panel. one of the things trey gowdy said last week who is certainly a supporter of the president

said anybody who is in the white house and has had a meeting should just hold a meeting with special prosecutor mueller and get it out of the way. it seems such a cliche to talk about the drip, drip, drip, but it doesn't help the white house, does it? >> i agree, and i think they're going through the process of figuring this out. clara mccatskill forgot she met with the german leader. there was a time the trump campaign had a difficult time colluding with the rnc. this is a campaign that doesn't look like other campaigns because the candidate was the communications director, the campaign manager. the campaign won because donald trump had a message and a vision and he got it to the american people, and he didn't have an additional campaign structure

underneath him. i don't think they could have colluded if they wanted to. >> i agree with you, but that's the point i find so dangerous. i have no idea if anybody committed a crime and i'm not asserting as much. the question is the naivete to think they could do what they do. donald trump thinks he can waltz right in and have this great relationship? >> if he's a candidate and the obama administration is responsible for watching, who w coming into the country -- >> whatever the substance of this meeting, i would love to believe they had a separate meeting where he read him the riot act of all the things the united states would do if they continued meddling. i can't believe that's actually the case. he keeps putting himself and they keep putting themselves in a position to be compromised in a way i think is dangerous, and he's so concerned, the president

is, with this sense that he'll be seen as being illegitimate that he doesn't answer all the questions about this. >> every intelligence person we've had on the broadcast says this raises all sorts of questions. it looks like a classic espionage operation. we don't know. the principals deny all contact with the government. but even the fact if a questionable meeting isn't reported, that should raise red flags because then the russians know something that the u.s. side doesn't know. right? throw that out there. >> can i just raise just one thing. i haven't talked a lot about this russian meeting. there was a document that was turned over by one of the russian people there. donald trump jr. said, oh, the meeting was useless, but there was a document that was turned over. where is it? who saw it?

what became of it? what does it say? that certainly -- >> it was implicating -- >> it was one of the russians or the russian american lobbyist said there was a document. >> implicating bill browder and his ties to the dnc. but you go back to the credibility that this administration has, you have a president that called his son transparent, the few words he used to describe him following this news was, my son is very transparent. drip, drip, drip, every day we're hearing about an undisclosed person who was in this meeting. none of these people were adoption agency officials. it's a ruse to say this is a meeting about adoption just like it's a ruse for donald trump saying this was a dinner and everybody knew about it. >> donald trump is shifting to blame democrats for the loss of a new health care plan. whoooo.

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our other breaking news tonight, senator majority leader mitch mcconnell said the soonest to vote on a repeal without a replacement and it's expected to fail. sara murray is live at the white house with the latest. the president was very vocal on his opinion on health care earlier today. what are you hearing from the white house tonight? >> it's a defeat that took the white house by surprise. there are certainly staffers in the white house that feel dej t dejected and it isn't the outcome he was hoping for. here's what he said today. >> i'm certainly disappointed.

for seven years i've heard repeal and replace by congress, and i've heard it loud and strong. finally when we get a chance to repeal and replace, they don't take advantage of it. it's disappointing. i would say i'm disappointed with what took place. it will go on and win. >> on top of being disappointed, it's noted that he said "this is not on me" in terms of the health care bill, and we'll just let it collapse. >> the white house invited all republican senators to lunch tomorrow. is this the agenda or do we know? >> it will be interesting to see what will come out of this meeting. like you said, it's republican senators. earlier today we saw sarah huckabee sanders go to the podium and say, hey, we're willing to move forward on this on a bipartisan basis, we want democrats to come to the table. the reality is the white house has not tried to engage democrats in this. they've tried to move forward on

a repealed plan which they know democrats will never show up and work with them on, so i think everyone is sort of wondering what is the next step on this as the senate realizes the votes are there to move a straight repeal. i think everyone is going back to the drawing board saying, what can we do on this thing we've been campaigning on for seven years? ohio governor john kasich is speaking on health benefits. governor kasich, when you hear the president say what he did today saying, quote, let obamacare fail, is that an option? >> no, i really don't think it is, and i'm not sure that's what he really means. i've always believed he's not hung up on some idealogical fix on this. that's my view. if they were able to give him something that stabilized the insurance markets, began to deal with the problem of rising health care costs, i think he would sign it.

anderson, what the focus has to be, and it's something i suggested, i don't know, four, five, six months ago, the focus ought to be on stabilizing those insurance markets on the exchange so people can get health insurance. then we need to move beyond that and think about what insurance is all about. what is the risk we're trying to cover? what are the responsibilities of people aside from those risks that we cover on insurance? and then i also think, anderson, that we need to look at all these entitlement programs: medicaid, medicare, social security, and we ought to put them on a road map to stability. they ought to be reformed. and that would include everything that we talk about on medicaid, but it has to be done with both parties or you'll never get it done. >> the president also said today, i'm not going to own it. i can tell you the republicans are not going to own it. to you does it sound -- it seems like a lot of folks are still trying to blame one another's side, whether it's democrats blaming republicans or republicans blaming democrats. >> i heard schumer today say, these are the conditions for us to be able to do something.

hey, we have a lot of people who are in need of continuing health care. we need people to be treated. we need them to get primary care. we don't need to put them in the emergency room. we don't want them to live paycheck to paycheck worrying about the fact that if they don't have health care, they could be brupankrupted. these are people who play by the rules. i know it's possible to get a bipartisan group of senators to say let's first stabilize the insurance markets, let's make sure that people can get the kind of coverage they need to have a healthier america. >> but there's been so much talk of just letting -- the republicans have been saying, look, that obamacare is collapsing and to just let it collapse. mitch mcconnell, the majority leader, said today he wants to hold a repeal only vote in the near future, and as you know, republican senator michelle moore decapito said she didn't

come to capitol hill to hurt people. would a repeal be accepted? >> sure, you would have a lot of people who would lose health insurance. i don't think it would be good for the country, i don't think it would be good for the party, i don't think it would be good for all of them in congress. >> do you think there are enough democrats, enough republicans willing to work with each other in a bipartisan way? >> i do. i do. sometimes, though, they want to ask permission from their leadership. like, i need to ask. like, i need to have a hall pass. do i have to ask the teacher? that's a frustrating thing for me. you know, when i was in the congress, i was offering budgets against the republican president of the united states because i didn't think he was saving enough money. i became the chairman of the budget committee. we balanced the budget. we did did on a bipartisan basis. this is not easy but lead when you're there, because in the end, every politician has a million plaques on the wall. do you know what you do with those plaques? no one cares. do something that's going to improve america, not worry about

the party and this other stuff. health care is so important to every american and that's what's important. >> the notion of repeelialing without replacing, if it's even possible, is it going to hurt the republican party if they do that? >> i think it will. there's no republican that wants to be in a position where they're going to be blamed for people being thrown off coverage. the problem is this is an idealogical approach that many conservatives would never have signed on for in the first place. and it was unfortunate that obama rammed this in on a party line vote, but here we are and now you have governor kasich, you have others who it's very difficult to take an entitlement away once it's been given, but that's the reality. the real challenge for the president, the president was in a very good position and is not

being idealogical on this. but republicans, it's republicans who can't agree on health care when it comes to government being involved. the challenge for the administration is how do they now work and use their power to try to revive the uncertainty that's in the exchanges in the market? >> obama didn't ram things in there. the basis of obamacare are exchanges. this was a heritage foundation y idea. so he really did try to get republicans on board and when republicans failed to participate in any way, we all knew they were going to oppose anything he did. so here we are now and we have president trump complaining about the democrats being obstructionists when, in fact, the democrats were more than willing to work with republicans, and now the core of obamacare are exchanges. they were developed by the heritage foundation. there is no reason republicans

can't come and work with this and find something that would work -- >> his slogan right now is resist. actually, one of the worst nightmares for the democrats would be if we just went to regular order, put this through the committees and had amendments put on the floor and look at the democrats and say, will you work with us, they're going to get a huge amount of people that don't want to. >> what i don't understand is how you can sit there with a straight face and talk about obstructionism after what the republicans did. it's incredible to listen to people say republicans complain about obstructionism when we watched republicans in congress who literally got together and had a meeting and said, we will oppose every single thing that president obama does. i'm not even making a partisan point. i'm trying to stick to historical facts here and you're complaining about obstruction. >> democrats to this day still brag about the medicare act, they still brag about the social security act, yet they want to

say that president trump is somehow going to be to blame if obamacare fails. this is their bill, they passed it, they own it. i think the president is negotiating just like if you had a neighborhood and it was going down, the buildings were going. think about real estate in president trump's mind. the value of the buildings is going down. i say i want to buy one, you say no. he says, i'm going to wait until they crater. the pressure on congress for how bad obamacare is isn't enough to get their act together. the president is sitting back and saying, wait until the premium increases come out in october. we may revisit this entire thing again. >> the president cannot say, i won't own it. you owned it the moment you were na inaugerated, you are the president now. we have to take a moment to see how incredible, how staggering it is for him to say, i'm just going to let it collapse. i'm sorry, i'm going to finish this point. and i want to stop talking about it in positive terms and talk about it in people terms. collapse, lose coverage.

those are not euphimisms but they are antiseptic terms. what is going to happen when people lose coverage. people who are sick need coverage. people who are sicker die. that's what happens when people do not have access to care, cannot afford the care, cannot get in to see a doctor, use up their lifetime limits. this is what happens. this is what happens. people die. and for the president of the united states to simply say, this is a political argument for me. i do not like obamacare partly because i don't like obama, that's what he's saying, and a lot of people voted for him who don't. i will allow this thing to collapse and take down the people who are depending on it. to death. to death. >> the people who showed up in the march and april congressional meetings said that all the time. how is it collapsing? democrat after democrat has

defended obamacare. the house voted 47 times to repeal it. democrats voted to keep it. >> most democrats will say things need to be corrected, though. don't they? >> let's see them come to the white house and say, let's sit down. >> they haven't been invited. >> look, democrats do have a lot of tension from the bernie sanders wing about now moving to single payer. there are things that need to be fixed, charles. to your point if we're really talking about people, let's talk about how obamacare is being implemented, let's talk about what works, let's talk about what doesn't work. unfortunately, i actually think that president trump would have been much more pragmatic about it if there wasn't such disagreement among conservatives. the problem now is part of what is hurting implementation of the obamacare act, trump and other republicans have said, look, this is going to crater, we're going to let it collapse.

that's not how you shore up the market. you have cms, you have tom price saying it's failing every day. now they're under -- >> let's talk about it in honest terms, though. the tension here is between rising costs for some people and is the saving of other people's lives. that is the entire tension. on the campaign trail people said, i understand that your premiums have gone up and i will do something about that. basically i will cut off access to other people so i can bring your premiums down. that meant that i will literally let people die in order for you to be more comfortable and be able to make this payment. what we have to say is that if that is the tension, we cannot allow either of those two things to happen. we can't keep having this conversation as if those two things are disconnected. they are absolutely connected. we have to talk in those terms, that we can't -- we can fix but we cannot fix to the extent that we allow people to lose coverage and therefore expose people to the possibility that they will get incredibly sick and someone

will die. >> i have to take a quick break. we'll talk more about health care when we come back, including how the white house is trying to sway republicans on this repeal vote before it's too late. day 13. if only this were as easy as saving $600 when you switch to progressive. winds stirring. too treacherous for a selfie. [ camera shutter clicks ] sure, i've taken discounts to new heights with safe driver and paperless billing. but the prize at the top is worth every last breath. here we go. [ grunts ] got 'em. ahh. wait a minute. whole wheat waffles? [ crying ] why!

breaking news on the health care front tonight, president trump has invited all gop senators for lunch at the white house tomorrow to discuss the issue, presumably lobby for votes. we'll talk about where the white house goes with this and the president's remarks today. >> we're not going to own it, i'm not going to own it. i can tell you the republicans are not going to own it. we'll let obamacare fail and then the democrats are going to come to us. >> doug, if a repeal without a replace doesn't go anywhere, what is the next step? >> we don't know if there are next steps. that's the reality here, but it's also why i think it's incumbent on the president in some fashion to own this. we're here in part because of this. we haven't seen him own this yet. if you look at what's happened,

we struggled with obamacare replacement for years. david covered the republicans in death in 2015 when we couldn't even put a white paper together, but we don't have the democrats and republicans fully engaged on this, and that left a vacuum which meant we had cbo stories that were bad, we had process stories that were bad, and without the president really in charge and owning this, things are not going to change. he's the only dynamic that is new in this. >> he has a responsibility now, as the federal government does, to make the system works. the federal government plays a huge role in this in not only shoring up the markets but delivering subsidies, making sure it works. you can't, as the president of the united states, say, i don't own this. you're the president of the united states, you're the leader of the republican party. you tried to get involved and then you pulled back. guess what, it didn't work. so you do own it and -- >> mike? >> sarah huckabee sanders said this isn't over yet, he's

negotiating. what he's saying is i'm prepared to go into 2018 and have a fight on health care. i'm prepared to say the democrats own this. they made a fight on law and now people are collapsing and they could die from the bill that they wrote. let's go to the people and have a conversation on this. the single payer bill which is bernie sanders' government-run health care all the way had the most co foundesponsors they've had. it literally would have doubled the california budget. even liberals in california said that's too much money to spend. the republicans are looking that the democrats are in disarray on this and they think -- it needs to get tie poio a point of negog to get back to the table. >> i can't let this pass. you just said democrats are now saying they're upset because the bill they wrote is going to make people die. >> i said people are going to die.

>> let me tell you what i said. that's not in any way what i said. there are 30 million more people who have health insurance now than had it before the aca. that means that fewer people have had to make the incredible choice about whether or not they were going to buy groceries or buy medicine. that means fewer people were running into lifetime limits with a child that was born. i let you talk, now i'm going to talk. >> okay. >> they are now not having to run up against lifetime decisions with a child. the child did nothing wrong, made no bad choices, they were born with a problem. they're running into a lifetime limit in the first year. those people are having to make incredible choices that some people, the choices they make, still did not save their lives. there were more people caught nup thup in that before the aca than there are now. i am not in any way saying what you are accusing me of saying that the democrats wrote a bill that made people die, it

actually prevented more people from dying. >> he is saying that he actually believes there is a possibility of bipartisanship here. is that just a fantasy? >> not when the president stops cost-sharing subsidies. that would be about $10 billion and see premiums go up 20% and throw a lot of people off their premiums. that's the guy hin tbehind the f the deal. that's not how you go into the deal. >> chuck schumer said, the door soap but it's got to be this, this and this. >> once the president can settle with his own party, then he can talk to chuck schumer. the biggest headache right now is in his own party. >> left to his own device, the president could get with chuck schumer. one of the problems president trump had all along was he wanted to keep primary aspects of obamacare, including keeping younger people on their parents' plan, et cetera. he is more of a big government guy on health care,

conservatives are not. but i don't -- look, to kirsten's earlier point, you may not have liked me saying they rammed it through. obamacare was passed on a party line vote. that's always dangerous. >> whose fault is that? >> it doesn't matter, that's the reality. >> it does matter. i think it matters a lot. >> at the time they were negotiating said it was a huge mistake to pass it with democrats only. it has, i think, seeded part of the public lack of support for obama which has grown over time. the real problem is now it's in place and i think democrats are going to treat it like the alamo. they're going to protect it. >> republicans are in a very dangerous place here. we've had four elections in a row where we said we are going to do this. if we don't do it, go into red states, go into purple states. our base is demoralized because they haven't seen a whole lot happening which they're proud of. if we can't get obamacare which we were promised, a lot of voters will just stay home.

we'll talk to the author of the book "delvil's bargain." we'll be right back. radio: scorching heat today, stay cool out there!

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joshua green of bloomberg business week. it's got a lot of stories from the campaign trail never shared till now include how the talk of a border wall began. the idea for the wall didn't come from donald trump. it came from roger stone and sam.sam nunberg who back in 2013, 2014, wanted to keep trump focused on issue of immigration because they thought it was a powerful one but knew that trump's attention always wandered. they came up with this idea of the wall just as a device to keep him focused on the issue of immigration. >> to remind him to speak of that. >> if you can plant that seed in his mind, you can kind of riff on it. at first he didn't seem very excited but wound up going to iowa and tried it out, got a great response from the crowd and did what he does best. he started riffing on it. i'm going to build a wall and nobody builds like trump. mexico is going to pay for it.

>> back now now with the panel. does it undercut the idea of the wall if that's how this started? >> steve bannon was sort of looking for a vessel for his ideas. if you look back, sarah palin was somebody he stumbled upon. >> he produced a film about her. >> he did a film about her. she was the first person he thought he could get behind and put her in power and maybe in be president and michele bachmann. he stumbles upon donald trump and it seems like they maybe agreed on trade which seems to be the thing he's been consistent about donald trump and i know a lot of people pushed back on the idea of him being the you. met master but i think he's the ideological sort of godfather behind a lot of things that donald trump believes. he's running the white house. >> you think every ideologue needs their demi going to.

>> there's no puppet mastering with donald trump. he makes the decisions. and some people criticize him for doing everything but he does everything. the president is in charge but he found someone in steve bannon that he agreed with and someone that they're heading down the same path. they were able to work together. steve bannon is one of the few people that doesn't need a lot from the president. a lot of people need something from billionaires. >> his life was the same when he was running breitbart. now that he's running white house. >> he's been successful. he has a group of people that listen to him, sort of his group of conservatives. he brings that to the table. that's a relationship they have. it's no different in that regard to any president that has someone in his coalition. >> you're right. many presidents have people like that. >> breitbart and so forth it is a mini army. bannon was able to grow this especially after andrew breitbart's death, grow this into a mini army that overtook

cpac and part of why trump was so successful with red hats and walls that a movement got behind. >> are we not going to talk about the fact what that breitbart crowd is, basically neo-nazis and the like? we're not going to bring that up. am i the only person who looked at that interview and thought this is hilarious. the i don't know way they can get this man to focus, it's kind of shady. the only way they can get him to focus is give him a four-letter word. say wall and talk about immigration. this is a problem he's having with every part of his agenda. he doesn't understand it. he didn't have a health care plan. he kept talking about it for two years on the campaign trail. he didn't have one and didn't understand what was in the one that was being voted on. that's why he couldn't make the case. that's why he refused to try. he does not understand policy. therefore, bannon is the only person who understands some sort of policy. >> the idea that they agree on things, i mean, donald trump for good or ill, doesn't have policy

ideas. that's not who he is. i've interviewed before. anybody who has pressed him on policy issues during the campaign knows this is not a person who has thought about a lot of things. i think yes, of course, he's making decisions. he's the president. but steve bannon is very much ---ing. >> definitely more of an overarching vision and certainly in terms of literacy on ideas and philosophy. >> he's written movie scripts. he's involved in entertainment and knows how to tell a story. the idea that the president doesn't have ideas, i mean, this is what -- >> i said he doesn't understand. >> you guys understand it, there's a whole group of americans that they spoke to that people like us, and i was in washington, d.c., i'm saying people like us, we don't communicate to them. when they watch panels like this it, they don't understand what we're talking about. we're turning the dial to 11 on a bunch of different issues with the president they don't think

matters when they're worried about their kids and health care. bannon and trump were able to be talk past to us those americans and say i care about you. it was brilliant. now we're talking to the author of this book. is he a puppet master and starting to get back into the washington, d.c. part of it. >> the author makes that point well about how steve bannon heard the voices and figured out that donald trump was somebody who also ironically was able to, despite his wealth, able to kind of connect with those voices. >> nothing you just said is any way contradicts what i said. >> we've got to take a quick break. we'll be right back. and hey, unmanaged depression, don't get too comfortable. we're talking to you, cost inefficiencies and data without insights. and fragmented care- stop getting in the way of patient recovery and pay attention. every single one of you is on our list. for those who won't rest until the world is healthier, neither will we. optum. how well gets done.

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that's it for us. thanks for watching. i'll see you tomorrow. a previously undisclosed trump/putin meeting revealed. how could that happen? this is cnn tonight. turns out putin and donald trump were not done talking off their g20 meeting stretched into two hours. they had another conversation at the end of a dinner that night. a conversation that lasted nearly an hour. the white house never got around mentioning it till now. the only three people who know what was said, donald trump,