said they were there for days wanting to get out and were just waiting around. bill, i'm glad you're there. it's time to hand things over to dana bash and jake tapper. the debut with senator bernie sanders and ted cruz on the tax plan starts right now. [ cheers and applause ] live in washington, this is cnn's debated night with senators bernie sanders and ted cruz. at issue, president trump's new tax plan. will congress go for it, and how might it affect your wallet? i'm jake tapper. >> i'm dana. president trump again promised his plan been a boon to small businesses and the middle class, but the critics say it's a boost

to the rich and might raise taxes for some in the middle class. >> the stock market now at a record high will drop if congress does not cut taxes, senator cruz supports the president's effort to lower taxes. senator sanders opposes it. >> a reminder you will get 90 seconds to answer questions from us and our audience, 45 seconds for responses and rebuttalion. let's start with our opening arguments. you each have one minute. senator cruz, we'll start with you. >> dana, thank you. i want to thank cnn and jake and dana for hosting this. berna several months ago you and i did obamacare, now we're back with taxes. i got to say, this debate is very, very simple. bernie and the democrats want every one of you watching today to pay more taxes. and republicans want to lower the taxes for each and every

person watching this debate. tonight i'm going to make a prediction. bernie is going to suggest that this is not really about you. this is about, quote, taxing the rich. that's what the democrats always say. but here's what you need to know. every time bernie says the rich, what he means is taxpayers. so if you pay taxes, he's talking about you. how do we know this? we know this because there's a difference between facts and rhetoric. bernie's tax plan cost over $13 trillion. that's what he's proposed in raision in new taxes. who pays for it? the democrats always talk about the millionaires and billionaires, but here's a simple fact. we could take every single person making $1 million a year or more and confiscate 100% of their income, everything they make, every penny, and it would

raise about $1 trillion, 8% of the cost of bernie's tax plan. that means if you want tax revenue, you don't get it from it millionaires and billnaries, you get it from the middle class and the working men and women in this country. tax cuts are about jobs and more money in your pocket, more money for the single mom to buy books for her kids. for the truck driver to afford sending his daughter to college, for the family who's struggling to make ends meet to be able to save up and go to disney world. this debate is very simple. bernie and the democrats want to raise your taxes, and the republicans want to cut them so that you have more in your pocket. >> senator cruz, thank you. senator sanders. >> let me make a prediction. in two minutes, senator cruz is going to tell you if we give tax breaks to the billionaires like george w. bush did, like ronald reagan did, we're going to create. >> i willions of jobs and you're

going to become rich. we have a trickle-down theory, and whoa, everything is good. that is a totally fraudulent theory. here's the reality of american society today. for 40 years the middle class of this country, the great middle class has been shrinking. and what we've seen massive transfer of wealth from working families to the top 1/10 of 1%. trillions of dollars because of cooperate greed and an unfair tax system. now, the trump republican tax proposal that's before us today, this proposal is being pushed by senator cruz's campaign contributors, some of the wealthiest people in this country, by the koch brothers who are worth $90 billion.

why are they pushing this agenda? because 80% of the tax breaks in this proposal will go to the top 1%. in fact, 30% of the middle class will end up paying more in taxes. 40% of the tax benefits will go to the top 1/10th of 1%. this is massive tax breaks for the wealthy. the other thing they do in order to pay for their tax breaks, you know what they do? they cut medicaid over a ten-year period by one trillion dollars for 15 million americans off the health insurance they have, they cut medicare by $470 billion. so what this is in fact is a proposal, which is right on the floor of the senate right now. senator cruz and i go back tomorrow and continue the debate. it is a robin hood proposal. they are taking from the working families and the poor and giving to the rich. it's a proposal that must be

defeated. >> let's talk about some of the details now. republicans are working out a lot of the details, but the proposed frame work would cut the cooperate tax rate from 35% to 20% and reduce the number of individual tax brackets from seven brackets to three brackets, creating three new rates of 12%, 25%, and 35%. i want to begin with the question of who this plan will benefit. we're going to bring in sell can i who's a stunt at george washington university. >> senator cruz i come from a middle class family. i worked hard in high school to get into college. after academic scholarships, my parents and i are still struggling to afford my education. it's hard to see benefits of cutting cooperate tax rates and trickle-down economics when that hasn't been a long-term solution in the past. how would you adjust cutting the cooperate tax rate by 15%, but only barely making a dent in the

tax rate for middle class americans? >> kelsey, thank you for your question. congratulations on your studies. i understand the frustration. there are a lot of young people who feel frustrated. you probably got student loans. when i was in college, i had $100,000 in student loans when wasn't sure how to pay because my parents declared bankruptcy when i was in high school. why cut the cooperate taxes for a young person? when you graduate, you want a job. do you know the united states has the highest cooperate tax rate of any developed country in the world? you look at countries all over europe, ireland, the united kingdom, france, jobs are fleeing to those countries. capital goes where it gets the right tax rate. bernie's solution is jack the taxes up even more. if you jack the taxes up even more, we already have the highest cooperate tax rates in

the developed world. you'll see more companies and jobs leaving, and the frustration young people feel is you come out of school and you don't have opportunity. bernie talked a minute ing a about the gap between rich and poor. he's right. it's growing. but it's grown dramatically under barack obama. do you know that right now the top 1% have a higher share of our national income than any year since 1928? if you look at an article called the greatest wealth transfer in history by justin gardener, the period between twiegt and 2015 the great fleecing. those are the obama years. what happened is 4.5 trillion in wealth was accumulated in wall street and that was with high obama taxes and regulation, all the cronyism and favoritism in washington, and the people that got hurt turks gap between rich and poor, wideened more under

obama than under any other president. i want to see young people come out with opportunity. and the way you have opportunity is to have two, three, four, five job offers. when you cut taxes on small businesses and job creators, the result is everyone benefits because you have more opportunity, better jobs, and higher wages. >> senator sanders? >> for a start, a commiserate with you as student struggling. in order to give incredible tax breaks to the 1%, the republican budget that we're debating right now, would slash pel grants, a major source of help for young people. it would slash that funding, if you can believe it at a time when so many are struggling to figure out how they're going to college, these guys want to cut pell grants by $100 billion.

they want to cut housing assistance all over this country. you're a young person, you want to get an apartment, a house, we have millions of people spending 4040%, 50% of their limited income tax on housing. they want to cut section 8 housing and other housing programs by $37 billion. so what this entire proposal is about is to give tax breaks to people who don't need it, and you do that by making massive cuts in education, in health care, in housing, in the programs that working families desperately need. >> senator cruz, do you want to respond? >> you know, i do. it's interesting, in his opening bernie invoked robinhood. i think bernie fundamentally misunderstood that story. robinhood was robbing the tax

collectors who were collecting too much taxes from the working men and women and taking it for the rich. in bernie's analogy, it is democrats who are king john and the sheriff of nottingham, and robinhood is saying tax collectors, stop hammering people who are struggling, who were laboring in the fields, stop taking it to the castle to give out to your buddies. bernie's going to tell you all this free stuff he's going to give and talks democrats love cooperate welfare. they love to rail on the insurance companies. what they won't tell you is under obamacare the profits for the insurance companies doubled. when you have washington giving out goodies, the good guys do great. it's the little people, the entrepreneurs -- when my dad came to america from cuba, he couldn't speak english. he was making 50 cents an hour. our economy is the place where people can do that. bernie didn't disagree with what

i said that the gap between rich and poor has increased more under obama than any other president in history. >> it's increased significantly over the last 40 years under republican presents. it did increase under obama and bush. under the bush proposal, remember, what senator cruz is talking about, if we give tax breaks we're going to create all these jobs and have all this growth and a surplus. under president bush, her response it. he gave tax breaks to the rich. you know what happened? we lost 500,000 private sector jobs, and the national debt almost doubled under bush. now, here's most important point tonight. it has nothing to do with taxes. it has everything to do with campaign finance. i want you all to ask yourself a simple question. why do you think the koch brothers and ted cruz's major

the corners, billionaires, are supporting these proposals? do you think they're staying up nights worrying working families or kids who can't afford to go to college? do you think they're worried about elder people who can't keep their homes warm in the winter? they are not. underground one group of people, the koch brothers, two people worth over $95 billion. they are going to spend $300 million alone in this campaign cycle to do what? to pass legislation that protection the interest of the wealthy and the powerful, and to support candidates, like senator cruz, who will do just that. so when you think about politics, always ask the question, who is behind this agenda. there was an article in the boston globe the other day. it said the koch brothers want this tax reform.

ted was at a meeting with the koch brothers the other day, am i right? >> indeed. >> you may have heard this guy say, if you don't get your act together, you know what they're going to do, they're going to cut your funding, at the scene. you're going to be in trouble. so we used to think that what congress was about is representing the middle class and working families of the country. unfortunately, as a result of citizens united, we have a corrupt campaign finance system. what this legislation is about is not for the working families, no matter what senator cruz may say. it's about benefiting the wealthy and the powerful and those who make large campaign contributions. >> you know, there's a pattern you see of democrats which is, they try to scare monger. their lets a villain is the koch brothers and they say money and politics is what it's all about. john adams said facts are

stubborn things. you look at 2014. of the top 20 groups that gave money to politics, i guess listening to bernie they were all republican, no? that's not the case. 16 of the top 20 gave primarily to democrats. the top six, tom stire and the new york city, the nea, gave almost exclusively to democrats. where did these mysterious koch brothers fall on the list? number 59. democrats do great with rich people. in the last eight years under obama, rich people got richer. you know, the most stunning thing, gosh republicans don't care about young or old people or people who are struggling, that is malarkey, bernie. and the young people aren't able to get jobs. the struggling immigrants have

lost their jobs because of the taxes and regulations from obama and you're proposing more taxes, more regulation without acknowledging what we're doing. >> i don't think that's why they lost their jobs. they lost their jobs because among other things, we have a cooperate world who are prepared to shut down tens of thousands of factories in this country to move to china, to move to mexico, to move to other low-wage countries. >> if you raise their taxes -- >> believe me, their taxes right now -- you made a statement about how highly taxed corporations are. we have the highest cooperate taxes in the world. >> in the developed world. >> well, it's wrong. nominally it's 35%, but in effective tax rates it's 14%. very few global corporations pay 35% according to the gao, the average tax rate is 14%, which puts us in the middle of the

global economy. bottom line, we need to create millions of decent-paying jobs and the american people are going to have to make a choice. do you want to give $1.9 trillion in tax breaks to the top 1%, or do you think it makes more sense to invest a trillion dollars rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, our roads, our bridges, our waste water plants, our water systems and we can create 15 million jobs. >> senators, we want to get to somebody who wants to create those jobs, and that is john conrad who supports president trump and runs a trucking company in pennsylvania. he has a question for you, senator sanders. >> senator sanders, over my lifetime we've seen more government and more expenses cutting taxes from tot to bottom, then we'll give relief to the burdensome expenses all americans face. why would you not want a tax cut

across the board for all americans? >> i do want a tax cut for the middle class and working families, but when the top 1/10 of 1% owns as much wealth as the bottom 90%, when you have a handful of people with incredible wealth and power, no, i'm afraid i will not support tax breaks for billionaires. i don't know if you were there when president trump -- were you there when president trump came to pennsylvania? >> i was. >> president trump was touting, as i understand it the repeal of the estate tax, something that senator cruz supports. that's why he was there, correct? let's talk about the repeal of the estate tax. the only people who benefit from that are the top 2/10 of 1%. 99.8% of the people do not pay a nibbli nickel in estate taxes. ted, there are 80 of theme in the united states. the overwhelming majority of

beneficiaries of this estate tax that trump was supporting are people like the walton family. do you really believe the wealthiest family in america should get a tax break of up to $50 billion, that the koch brothers should get a tax break of $30 billion? >> i did say all americans. >> well, i happen not to believe that the koch brothers need a tax break. >> senator cruz? >> let me say a couple things. one, bernie once again said oh, look it's the super rich, it's the millionaires and billionaires. you notice bernie hasn't responded to the simple fact if we confiscate 100% of the income of everyone making over $1 million, it produces about a trillion dollars. where does bernie get the other $1 trillion he's raising taxes? it comes from the middle class.

by the way, if you confiscate 100% of a person's income, the next year never not going to produce it if you take 100%. let's take what bernie brought up now. "r," the death tax. >> the estate tax. >> it kicks in when you die. you paid taxes your whole life. >> your family pays it. >> then when you die you see two people, the undertaker and the tax man. that's not fair. let me point out, again, the rhetoric behind the estate tax is this is all about the rich guys. you know, georgesauruses of the world don't pay estate tax. they have armies of lawyers and accountants, they have trusts and generation skipping. the people who pay the death tax are farmers, ranchers, small business owners. bernie said there are only 80. there might be 80 in vermont, but those facts are not right. let me give some real facts.

according to the u.s. agriculture census, there were 3 at no time 3 million farmers in america. 13% of the estates subject to the estate tax included farms. one-third of all farmers are over 65. if you look from 1995 to 2016, 102,000 closely-held businesses and 36,000 farms paid the death tax. what does that mean? that means a family farm when the farmer passes away and his or her kids inherit the farm, often the first thing they have to do is sell the farm or take out big debts. if you have a factory in a town and you have equipment that is employing -- workers are working. under the death tax a small business owner doesn't have the fancy lawyers and accountants that george has. the small business owner has the kids sell the business and end up having to fire the workers.

it's not fair. >> we're staying on the subject. i want to introduce you to somebody who wants to talk about the federal estate tax which currently applies to inheritances. >> we're coming to you after senator cruz. scott gnash is the ceo of mom's organic market. >> i started a business out of my mother's garage and i ploy more than a thousand people. i now qualify for the estate tax. i learned from my parents each of us needs to help those in need while pull our own fair share. i teach my children 15% values. leaving everything to my kids would deny them the opportunity of personal growth that comes from accomplishing goals.

why should the children inherit millions of tax free dollars while other americans have to pay taxes on the money that he actually earn. >> let me congratulate you on your business. i'm glad it's going well. to be honest, the death taxes is not about you or your kids. it's about the thousand workers you said you employ. if you don't want to hand the business to your kids, if you want to shut it down and lay those workers off, that's your choice. that is a wonderful thing to do, but i'll tell you, it's a terrible thing for those workers who are relying on that paycheck. other business owners like you, when they pass the business on, the simple fact that you died means you've got a massive tax bill that the only way to pay for it is to lay those people off. the first question asked as a

young person, why should i care. young person might say when you're 19 or 20 you think you're going to live forever. why do i care about the death tax? you care about it if you wanted to be one of those thousand employees. small businesses provided two-thirds of all new jobs. bernie's suggestion that farmers and ranchers don't care about the death tax is nonsensical. i've sat with farmers that have a lot of land. so under bernie's definition, they're rich. they go broke every year planning and paying people's salaries and barely making ends meet, and yet the death tax would make them sell the farm. that's not fair and it's not right. >> that's a good speech, but it has nothing to do with reality. >> i appreciate that. >> here's the reality. you know, after trump and people like senator cruz go around saying it's mostly the workers

and the farmers and the ranchers who are going to pay the estate tax, mnuchin, this is what he said, and i quote, obviously the estate tax i will concede disproportionately helps rich salespeople. yeah, it helps rich people, the top 2/10 of 1%. 99.8% of families of somebody who died do not pay a nickel in the estate tax. factcheck.org said, quote, less than 1% of farm operators, less than 1% of farm operator estates is projected to pay any estate tax. tax policy center said, quote, only an estimated 80 small farms will pay any estate tax in 2017. center on budget and policy priorities said, only the wealthiest 2/10 of 1% will pay estate tax. here's who are beneficiaries are

and why the koch brothers are spending so much money to see this legislation passed. their family will benefit to the tune of some $30 billion, so spending a few hundred million dollars to elect people like senator cruz is pocket change if you're family is going to get 30 billion. if you're one of the wealthiest families you will get up to $2 billion. this is an incredible boondoggle going to the top 2/10 of 1%, $269 billion going to the top 2/10 of 1%. we had a young lady talking about the cost of college. i think it makes a lot more sense for us to make public colleges and universities tuition free rather than give the walton family tax breaks.

>> senator cruz? >> first of all, you'll notice bernie didn't way a word in response to my point that 2014 the top political givers 16 gave to democrats. >> i will. >> in 2016, i listened to a certain candidate, a senator from vermont rail against hillary clinton for being captive to all the millionaires and billionaires that have funded democratic party. your campaign like mine, were funded predominantly by grassroots -- >> i did not get money from a super pac funded by billionaires. you did, i did not. >> 1.8 million continue brugsz. if people go to ted cruz.org, it might be billion if it works out. look, there is power to grassroots campaigns and both of our campaigns enjoyed that. but the modern democratic party

of which you are today, one of the leading voices and leading faces, you and elizabeth warren represent the heart of the democratic party, and that democratic party is captive to the special interests in washington, to the billionaires, and they give massive amounts -- >> and the koch brothers are just low-wage workers who are struggling to feed their families with their $95 billion in personal wealth. >> bernie, by the way, let's be clear. most of the billionaires on the republican side were not with me on this race. listen, you and i have agreed on one thing for a long time, which is washington is corrupt. but let me ask you something. if washington is corrupt f both parties are in on fafrg giant corporations and big labor and all the people with power, where bernie and i disagrees disagree is the solution. if washington is corrupt why would you want to give more power to washington. under all these high taxes and

regulations, the working class, the young, women are doing worse and you're saying keep on with the policies that aren't working. >> not quite. >> make them worse. >> let's do two things, ted. number one, you ran a good campaign. >> thank you, you did too. >> you were the guy who trump -- you were right behind him. please let's not confuse our campaigns. i did not have a super pac. i did not billionaires contributing millions of dollars into that super pac. i never had a super pac, and i'm d damn proud by average contribution was $27. you're playing games with words when you talk about the koch brothers or 69th. unions contribute, but there are millions of people in a union. the koch brothers are two people. two people. so if the nea, which is the

teacher's union, makes a contribution. >> how much does tom stire give? >> yes he does. believe me that's why, ted, i want your support for campaign finance reform which will say to any billionaire democrat or republican they can't buy elections. >> your solution is always more government power -- >> no. >> my solution is -- >> we arrived at a good issue here. stick around, don't go away. >> you both just said what we're going to do in our next debate. let's focus on the legislation that is before the united states senate. you are two members of the senate. we appreciated the walk down memory lane. but let's focus on taxes. president trump has championed the republican plan as a win for small businesses. the proposal would cut the top tax rate for small business

owners from 39.6% to 29%. this man owns a graphics company in indiana and has a question for senator sanders. mark? >> senator sanders, you criesed this plan as bad policy, disastrous and morally repugnant. >> as a matter of fact, i did. >> can you clarify for me how that's disastrous? >> here's the point, mark, and you make a good point. small businesses are struggling with federal, state, local taxes. i got it. and with he went to help small businesses. what this particular bill does, as i mentioned earlier, 80% of the benefits go to the top 1%. not to you or small businesses. and 269 billion go to the top

2/10 of 1%. so we can become together in a bipartisan way and say we need to help small business. i think we do need help, but please, as a nation, we have to look at your issues as a small business persona different way than we look at the needs or the so-called needs of the koch brothers and billionaires. does that make sense to you? >> sure. >> it's interesting, bernie said he's there for small businesses, what he means by that is he's happy for you and anyone else to get a government check. you notice he didn't talk about taxes he would cut. when it comes to taxes, it's interesting. bernie, you focus a lot on the death tax. i get that you like the death tax. fine, you and i disagree. >> i like the estate tax? no. i don't want to see it repealed. >> but how about some of the other elements of the framework work that have been put out? it's interesting. you're not for cutting any

taxes. you're for raising everybody's taxes. one of the elements put out is doubling the standard deduction. the first 12,000 you earn, you pay zero for a couple. the first 24,000 you earn, pay zero. now, are you for that or against that. he keep telling us what you are against. do you believe in any aspect of taxes. >> what i'm not for, ted is repealing the individual exemption because what that would mean if you have a large family, you have two kids, right? >> i do. >> if a family of two, three, four kids they're going to end up paying more in taxes. >> i'm not sure what you're talking about, but you would agree that increasing the standard deduction, letting a married couple pay zero taxes on the first $24,000 of income,

that helps working class americans, would you agree. >> i would. >> let's take a second element, an element the gentleman just asked. you said you're with him, you have his back. one of the slmts cutting the tax rate for small business owners to 25% instead of 39.6%. would you agree with cutting the taxes for small business owners so he can hire more workers. >> but you can't look at this and that. you have to look at it in a comprehensive way. before we talk about the small business, will you agree with me that it makes no sense to lower the tax rates of the highest income people in this country? >> i don't agree with that. >> would you agree with me that thousands of people will die if we cut medicaid by a trillion dollars and throw 15 million

people off their health insurance that they have? that's not bernie sanders. that's a number of studies saying that. to answer your question, if the question is should we support small businesses and low-income people, the assistance, of course, we should. that's the tax reform we should do. i don't want to write them a check, we could lower taxes. but what you are doing is saying we're going to help a lower income person, a small business over here, but we're going to tie it to the fact that 80% of the benefits are going to the top 1%. work with me on a tax proposal where 80% of the benefits go to the working class and middle class of this country. >> bernie -- [ applause ] >> as you shared, bernie, you and i both ran presidential campaigns. we both laid out our own tax plans. and so you don't have to ask hypothetically, gosh, what tax plan might i support because you campaigned on one, and the tax

plan that you campaigned on was a $13 trillion tax increase. you didn't cut tax on small businesses when you had the chance. you jacked them up. you didn't increase the standard deduction. you didn't actually -- because your view is tax everyone, tax them like crazy, tax them at levels we've never seen and then the government can send you a check on the back end. the one i campaigned on was a flat tax of 10% for individuals and families, a business flat tax of 16% which would be the tax you would pay, sir, on your small business, and we abolish every other federal tax. it increases everyone's after tax income by 14% from the very poorest to the very wealthiest. that's what happened when you get jobs. >> was this the same exact tax plan that in 2015, the "wall

street journal" headline said, quote, ted cruz's new tax plan delivers its biggest benefits to the top 1% of u.s. households adding one-third to their i can't have tax income? is that the plan we're talking about? >> the journal had lots of edit toirlz criticizing me. i thought republicans were the candidate of big business. why was "the wall street journal" criticizing me. that's who you were quoting, the editorial page. >> this was a headline. point is, do we need tax reform, sure we do. it's a complicated system. >> what positive? >> in general, this is my view. number one, we help the people who are hurting. you do not help the people who are doing phenomenally well. cooperate profits today, ted, as

you may know are at an all-time high. we have large multinational corporations who don't pay a nickel in federal taxes. >> absolutely, and that's wrong. >> good. there, we'll work on that. we work on tax reform which puts money into the hands of working people, not into your billnary friends. >> i want to to another taxpayer here. republicans are proposing the limitation of something that's called salt that currently allows americans to deduct their income and property taxes on their federal returns. i want to bring in andrea who's an assistant professor at buffalo state university. she's the mother of three boys. she has a question for senator cruz. andrea? >> senator cruz, while i do not mind paying the state taxes required to make new york one of the best states in the country, i've come to rely on that salt, state and local tax deduction.

it's been on the books since income tax code was invented in 1913. it seems to me that many gop senators from red states are deliberately trying to punish blue democratic states by removing the salt deduction which benefits higher tax states. to me, this seems both unethical and bad policy. so my question for you is, why would a middle class working mom like myself support taking away the middle class salt deduction so that the wealthy americans, like you, can get more money? thank you. >> andrea, thank you for your question. thank you for being here. number one, i agree with you. the objective of tax reform should be cutting everyone's taxes. cutting people's taxes in blue states, cutting people's taxes in red states.

if we don't do that, we've done something wrong. that's what i'm urging in congress, we should cut everybody's taxes. we need to be cutting your taxes. the state and local tax deduction is taking overwhelmingly by those earning $200,000 or many per year. i favor eliminating that because -- let me give a big caveat. i wouldn't favor eliminating that deduction unless we are lowering the tax rate enough that people in new york state, the people in orange county, california, are paying less in total taxes. they're not deducting their state and local taxes, but the rate is a lot lower so the check they're writing at the end of the day is smaller. it's interesting you bring up new york. people vote with their feet. high taxes, what bernie and the democrats envision in jacking up

taxes, we see it state by state. if you look at the ten states with the highest tax rates, they have all seen nine of the ten have seen population fleeing of the of the ten highest with tax burden, 240,000 people left those ten states in 2015. of the ten states with the lowest tax burden saw a net influx of 100,000 people in 2011. people are voting with their feet and it's a combination of things. number one, people are tired of sending more and more of their paycheck to the government. but number two, the high taxes and high regulations are killing jobs. the reason why you see people coming from high tax states to low tax states is in a state like texas where we have low taxes, there are jobs. young people have opportunity coming out. and so i agree we should lower taxes for everyone, but we see state by state an illustration

of how what bernie and the democrats are proposing doesn't work and people vote with their feet every single day. >> senator sanders? >> first of all, let's be clear that at a time when senator cruz is fighting to provide 80% of the benefits to the top 1%, 30% of the middle class, because of the point you raised, are going to be paying more in taxes. so i do not believe that everybody deserves a tax break. as i mentioned earlier, the former president from your state, george w. bush, he gave very large tax breaks to the wealthy and cooperate america. we lost 500,000 private sector jobs and the national deficit saw it. so this idea of giving tax breaks to large corporations is basically a fraud. listen to what ronald reagan's

domestic policy advisor bruce bartlett said. he said virtually what every republican said about staksz lie. reagan's omb director said the idea that closing loopholes and adding growth will pay for termina trillionions is irresponsible. the people in the reagan administration understand that when you give huge tax breaks to very, very wealthy people, the loss of revenue does not -- is not made up by economic growth. it's a fraudulent theory developed by the wealthy people. just coit i happen to believe if you want to really get the economy

moving, you rise the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour. provide targeted tax breaks to skmaub small businesses and working people. rebuild our crumbling infrastructure, create jobs. when you make public colleges and universities tuition free, millions of people will have the opportunity to go out and get the decent-paying jobs that are being created today that today they can't get. and when we do what every other major country on earth does, and finally acknowledge that health care is a right of all people and not a privilege, by passing a medicare for all single payer system, this will not only help working people all over this country, it will help small businesses who no longer have to end up half their lives figuring out how they're going to pay for health insurance. >> i want to if you happen about

the salt. 28 million middle class american households took this deduction in 2015. you're talking about helping the middle class americans. 28 million households in that bracket took the salt deduction. you're talking about -- >> we got to lower the rate low enough that those are paying less taxesment the objective is to cut everybody's taxes. it was interesting. i'll say a couple things. number one, bernie talks about all the things he wants to federal government to spend on, free education for everyone, free health care for everyone, he wants a chicken in every pot. if he were in colorado it would be a pot in every chicken, but that's dirt you know what he hasn't told you? a single bit of government spending he would cut. >> oh, yeah. you want to ask me the question? >> let me say beyond that, he hasn't addressed how you pay for all this. you think health care is expensive now, wait till it's

free. the costs associated, he's never addressed con physician indicating the millionaires doesn't pay for it. i didn't interrupt you. bernie read several quotes. let me read a quote back at you. our present income rate structure holds back consumer demand, initiative and investment, the largest single barrier to full employment of you are man power and resources and a higher rate of economic growth is the unrealistic drag on federal income taxes on private purchasing power, initiative and incentive. you know who it was that said that? john f. kennedy. john f. kennedy was a passionate advocate of cutting taxes. john f. kennedy would be drummed out of the bernie sanders and elizabeth warren democratic party because he campaigned on cutting taxes, and not only that, he promised, he said if we cut taxes we'll get 5% economic growth. you know what happened, he came into office, cut taxes and he saw 5% economic growth, the same

thing happened under reagan where he cut taxes and the economy took off. jimmy carter -- >> fact check, reagan raised taxes four separate times. >> you said he cut too much? >> no you to figure out to mechanics that. the reason he raised taxes four separate times because of lack of revenue coming in. second, you asked me a question. what programs would i cut. i gather you are a big deficit hawk? >> indeed. >> and that's why you are supporting legislation that would increase the national debt by $1.5 trillion over ten years. but above and beyond that you asked me a fair question. okay, what programs would i cut. how did you vote on the authorization for the department of defense which increased military spending by, if i'm not

mistaken, $70 billion so that we are now spending more on the military than the next 12 nations combined? correct me if i'm wrong, inning you voted for that? >> i voted, enthusiastically, yes. you will slash the military, cut the army and navy and marines and air force, but you won't cut anything else? i agree -- >> no, no, no. >> that's an enormous mistake. yet you would cut the military. >> all right. don't concede for me. >> you would cut the military, i wouldn't. democrats want to cut the military -- >> that is an inaccurate statement. >> would you cut the military? >> what was the vote? >> you voted, yes, you voted no. >> correct, but how many people voted no. >> i don't know, but this is a great point. >> let me finish. >> you're asking a question, let me respond to it.

>> you said democrats voted to cut the military. in fact they overwhelmingly voted the same way you did. i voted no because at a time when we have people working two or three jobs trying to make ends meet where kids can't afford to go to college and are leaving school deeply in debt, i happen not to think that spending 70 billion more on the military and giving a huge boondoggle to the military industrial complex that dwight eisenhower, i think that was not a good idea. i'll tell you what else i would cut. i would end a lot of the tax -- what else i would cut would be oil subsidies and tax breaks. we're going to do away with the -- the oil depletion allowance. >> that's ordinary expense. you want to punish one

particular sector and not treat every energy source fairly. i went to iowa and campaigned on ending the corporate welfare. >> we have a lot more to talk about, corporate welfare, the deficit. >> we have to make some money here, thank you. cnn's debate night returns right after this. [ cheers and applause ] ♪ hey hun, huh! we gotta go. come on. ♪

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welcome back to cnn's debate night. we're back with senator ted cruz and bernie sanders. we want to start, senators, with the fact that president trump promised this morning to increase the child tax credit, which currently allows middle and working class parents to take a $1,000 tax credit for each child under 17. and i want to introduce jags minimum simon from nevada. she is a single mom who works two jobs, and she has a question for senator cruz.

jasmine. >> like many americans i make hard decisions to support my daughter. one of the hardest choices i've been is postponing my college degree so that i can afford my daily daughter's needs. one of the most expensive needs is childcare. i'm willing to sacrifice anything for my daughter, but working multiple jobs and still trying to make ends meet each month sometimes seems impossible. my question to you is that isn't the child tax credit a little too late for families like mine when i need to pay my bills every month, including childcare, not just in april. >> jasmine, thank you for that question and let me commend you. i've got to say, being a single mom may be the hardest job there is in the whole world and. i'll tell you i come from a family of single moms. my sister was a single mom. both my aunts were a single mom. and for a period of time my own mother was a single mom when my dad left us when i was a little kid. thankfully he came back so i

didn't grow up with a single mom. the challenges that are on your shoulders, your kids are relying on you every day. and it's hard. you're trying to provide for them, teach them, raise them, love them. and there are only so many hours in the day. and so thank you for the strength and courage you give every day for your kids. when it comes to the child tax credit, it's designed to help moms like you. it's designed to say you need more money in your pocket, and so part of the framework that's being laid out is to increase that child tax credit so that you would get more. and right now it's refundable which means you can get a check. not only do you not pay taxes, but if you're not paying taxes you can get a check as well. so it's designed to help make it easier to deal with how hard it is to be a single mom. but i'll tell you, i think the single best thing that would help you and so many other single moms is to have a growing economic environment where you had better job opportunities. where your wages were going up.

i think it would make it easier to provide for your kids if your wages were going up and they weren't going down. and i would note there are a lot of single moms who are working a couple of jobs. why? because obamacare defines a full time employee of 30 hours a week, and there are millions of people across this country who are working 28 and 29 hours a week because their employers won't pay them full time. they're single moms who are having to work two and three jobs staple. that's not fair. it's not right. and interestingly enough, bernie and the democrats don't have an answer to those moms working two and three part-time jobs. i'd like to see you get a job that pays well that puts you on a path to a career to provide for your kids. >> i'd like to ask the president's daughter ivanka trump who has been meeting on capitol hill with lawmakers and policy groups discussing the child tax credit.

senator marco rubio said he thinks the issue would have universal support. is this a proposal you could get behind? >> let's be clear about it. teds talks a lot about he hates taxes and taxes, but the corresponding fact is that we do not have the resources to do what we should among our things, for our children. we have the highest rate of childhood poverty in the industrialized world. you know that there are countries out there with mothers like jasmine would not have to ask that question. you know why, jasmine? because they have universal preschools. they have strong early childhood education opportunities that are available to all families, regardless of their income. i believe in that. and i think it's a lot more important that we invest in our children and an early childhood education. this proposal that senator cruz is supporting, would make massive cuts in the head start program. how did you mean is that? when we have to put more

resources in our children. we're talking about taxes today, but this is not just about taxes. it is a vision for america. i want to raise taxes on upper income people to do what? to expand social security. senator cruz, i think you were quoted as saying social security is a ponzi scheme. >> i've never said that. you were quoted as that. if you tell me it's false, okay. i want to expand social security. you'll tell us in a moment what your view on social security is. i want to make medicare available, jasmine, what it would mean for your family if you didn't have to worry about health insurance. that you and your kids had health insurance as a right and to understand that despite what senator cruz is saying, we spend in this nation twice as much, $10,000 per person on health care as canada and any other industrialized country. and the reason for that is we have a healthcare system not

designed to provide quality cost effective health care. it's to make the drug companies have billions and billions of dollars in profits as well as the insurance companies. so when we talk about our national priority -- it is not just taxes. it is what taxes do for the american people. if you cut taxes for the rich and up don't have the money to do the right things, then you're left to the situation which senator cruz is in. trillion dollar cuts in medicaid. 15 million people losing their medicaid. 4 $70 billion in medicare, cuts in the pell grant program. >> bernie is fond of saying cuts and cuts only in the language of washington where a slight decree in a future rate of growth where the spending next year is higher than the spending this year, only in washington is that considered a cut. but let me sath