tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN November 5, 2017 10:00am-11:00am PST
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fashion. >> of course, if the food is not up to par, the president can always send his staff out for something more american. >> how may i help you? >> a big mac is great. the quarter pound we are cheese. after all, america first. >> please pull up to the second window. thank you for spending your sunday morning with us. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. >> oh, my god. we start today's show is terror in downtown manhattan. what does the attack tell us about terrorists today. should the suspect be shipped off to gitmo? also, robert mueller catches former trump team members in his
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net. manafort,gates, papadopoulos. what does this week's news mean for the larger case? michael hayden will join me to talk about both terror and the russia investigation. will the north korean problem get solved? i have a terrific panel to discuss. first, here is my take. this week's tragic terror attack in new york was the kind of isolated incident by one troubled man that shouldn't lead to grand generallization. in the 16 years since 9/11, the city has proved astonishly safety from jihadists. speaking to about it from officials from 10,000 miles away when i was in singapore, the conclusions they reach are worrying. the home minister said the new
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york attack might be a way to remind us all while isis is being defeated militarily, the ideological threat from radica islam is spreading. it's a tough struggle but it's always favored the mighty united states and the allies. on the other hand, the ideological challenge from isis has proved to be far more intractable. western countries remain susceptible to the occasional lone wolf. but the new breeding grounds of radicalism are once moderate muslim societies in central, south, and southeast asia. consider indonesia. the world's most popular muslim country, which used to be seen as -- this year the government of jakarta lost the bid for office. he was jailed after being convicted on a dubious and
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unfair charge. a look at another country with a staunchly secular past. founded as a break-away from pakistan on explicitly nonreligious grounds. bangladesh has become extreme in the recent years. seculars and intellectuals have been targeted and killed. blast fa me laws enforced and the spade of terror attacks left dozens dead. why is this happening? there are many explanations. poverty, economic hardship, and change will produce anxieties. people are disgusted by the corruption and incompetence of politicians. they are easily seduced by the idea that islam is the answer. a singapore politician explained to me. then local leaders make alliances with collariler ricks give platforms to extremists. in southeast asia, almost all observers i've spoken with, believe there's another crucial
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cause. exported money and aideology frm the middle east, chiefly saudi arabia. a official told me that travel around asia and you'll see many new mosques built in the last 30 years that have been funded from the gulf. they are modern, clean, air-conditioned, well equipped. and saudi arabia's version of islam. how to turn the trend around. singapore's home minister said the city state's population, 15% of muslim, has stayed relatively moderate because state and society work hard at integration. he said we have zero tolerance for any kind of militant, but we try to make sure that muslims don't feel marginalized. asia continues to rise but so does islamic radicalism there. this worrying trend can be reversed by leaders who are less
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corrupt, more competent, and willing to stand up to the extremists. saudi arabia's new crowd spoke last week of turning the kingdom to moderate islam. many mocked it as a public relations strategy pointing to the continued dominance of the kingdom's ultra orthodox religion establishment. a better approach to encourage the prince to hold him to his words, and urge him to follow up with concrete actions. this, after all, is the prize, with saudi arabia to begin religious preform at home. it would be a far larger victory against radical islam than all the events on the battlefield so far. for more, go to cnn.com/fareed, and read my "washington post" column this week. let's get started.
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♪ on tuesday new york city experienced its worst terror attack since 9/11. just blocks away from where the twin towers once stood. the suspect is in custody, and on thursday, isis claimed him as a soldier of the caliphate. five days later, the city is holding one of the biggest annual events. the new york marathon. over the course of the day, some 50,000 runners hope to finish right there in central park. joining me to discuss it all in washington, d.c., we have michael haydyn, the former director of both the cia and the nsa. he's a cnn national security analyst. here in new york -- makes his appearance on gps. he was the u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york until donald trump fired him. he's also a cnn analyst, a senior legal analyst. mike, let me start with you. this terror attack does feel like a classic lone wolf attack
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because the uzbekistans are not particularly known for this. uzbekistan is a country that is hard lined on terrorists. did you draw any conclusion from this lone wolf? >> well, a couple of things almost immediately came to mind. first of all, there are islamic extremists from uzbekistan. we find the imu, the islamic movement of uzbekistan fairly prominent in the regions of pakistan. you're right. they don't have a free hand at home. and with regard to this particular attack, the word that comes to mind, for me, fareed, is limits. it shows the limits of what a battered -- physically battered islamic state might be able to do here in the united states. as bad as this was, it wasn't paris and it wasn't brussels. but it also shows the limits of how much we can do to prevent these kinds of attacks. i just don't think there are a lot more tools available to
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american security that would significantly increase our ability to detect and prevent this kind of assault. >> i mean, the one thing one could talk about, mike, would be something like looking at what radicalized him. but then you bump up very hard against issues of freedom of speech, don't you? >> you really do. and i said not many more things we can do, the paper -- remain the kind of people we want to be. you suggest something important here. we have him alive. we can talk to him in great depth. john miller, who does this -- the analytic work for the nypd is a really smart man on these subjects. and i expect john will delve into this process of radicalization. we'll learn more. what i can read from the press now, fareed, is this young man got unhappy well before he got
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radicalized. and in other words, the recruiting process was someone unhappy with his personal existence in trying to reach for something beyond himself with which he could identify and, unfortunately, in this case, it wasn't the boys club of america or even the crypts and the bloods, or some other gang, it was isis. so it does matter what gang you join. but it's important to find that motivation. >> when donald trump was on the campaign trail, one of the things he hammered home, and it is sort of a republican article of faith that the obama administration has been soft by wanting to try these terrorists through the civilian court procedure. instead they should be thrown into the military court systems. sent to guantanamo, and, yet, this time around donald trump has exceeded in the position
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that he got through the civilian court system. why? >> because it's history has shown and the track record has shown it's the best way to go about bringing these people to justice. and getting closure for the victims. and getting the public to understand the process. this person who engaged in that horrible deadly attack from last week was charged within a day by my old officer. my successor june kim filed charges against him in federal court. there was musings by the president of the united states on twitter that he should go to guantanamo bay saying something about how he could be tried quickly there. the next morning, he recanted that because, i guess someone told him the facts. the facts of the matter is, over the last couple of years, we have brought to justice terrorist after terrorist after terrorist most of whom are serving life prison sentences and did it in a way that was true to the system, true to the public, i think, understanding of what our system is supposed to be. meanwhile, in guantanamo bay,
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not one person has gone to trial. in some years ago, when i first became the u.s. attorney, we were supposed to try collsome a that got derailed. those people have not been brought to justice. i don't think it's good for the rule of law, ultimately. >> it's important to underscore what you're saying. we have done this enormous public relations meeting all over the world for guantanamo. what you're pointing out is nobody ever gets convicted in guantanamo. so in terms of just of -- it seems like a terrible trade-off. we have a huge public relations disasters, and, yet, there's no benefit. >> there's no benefit in terms of getting justice done. and getting closure on a case. i mean, the last person who was tried in guantanamo bay was a guy who was responsible for the terrorist bombings in kenya, tanzania, and the american embassies there.
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he was the last person brought from guantanamo bay and tried and convicted there. >> do you think that what president constantly making the comments is undermining the judicial process itself? >> it's not good for the judicial process or the department of justice when he calls it a laughing stock. it's not a laughing stock. i think the pride of the american government. the way we handle cases. whether they're terrorist cases, public corruption cases, you name it. i think we have the best system in the world. the good news is, that it seems what donald trump does where i sit as a private citizens is to engage in rhetoric and please people on twitter. when he does the quick interviews on television. the career professionals like the folks in my old office and the national security division don't seem to be paying him much mind. even though there was an immediate sort of quick talk about sechblding him to guantanamo bay and should get the death penalty. the sober minded professional career experienced people in the justice department do that, which they're supposed to do,
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which is with the proper way. >> to be fair, he didn't contradict or overrule in some ways. you know, at least the right decision ended up being made. next on "gps" monday's mueller announcements. two indictments and a plea deal. where does the investigation go from here? olay ultra moisture body wash gives skin the moisture it needs and keeps it there longer with lock-in moisture technology skin is petal smooth after all, a cleanser's just a cleanser
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joini joining me is michael haydyn. the former director of the cia and the nsa. let me start with you and our viewers. you're getting the correct pronunciation here. >> it's a pleasure to have my name pronounced correctly. >> tell me about manafort. because a lot of people, including the president of the united states say this is nothing to do with collusion. this is, you know, money laundering. it was awhile ago. is robert mueller doing this as a way to squeeze manafort to get him to be more cooperative on issues of collusion? >> i think the first thing to remember, is that robert mueller is a prosecutor's prosecutor. he's a professional. he's been doing it for a long time. and in the same used to do it. you hold people accountable for crimes they commit. if there's evidence beyond a reasonable doubt doubt you can prove to an unanimous jury, they bring it. now, the consequence of that can
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be if there are other charges they want to bring against somebody else, maybe paul manafort, will, in the parlance we use in law enforcement flip and cooperate with the government. sometimes that happens even before a charge is brought. like it looks like it happened with the individual charge last week. george papadopoulos. they'll make an approach and say we have good evidence against you. they probably did that with paul manfred and george papadopoulos. in the case of george papadopoulos, he said, okay, and he cooperated. paul manafort he did not. sometimes, though, after people's minds get focussed because of criminal charges brought to bear on them, they have to retain counsel. they go to court and confronted with the enormity of what is facing them. meaning the loss of their liberty, they sometimes flip then. >> you think there's a good chance manafort will go to jail? >> i don't know all the evidence that the special counsel's office has. they're straightforward charges. you can do it through the documents and the financial records to prove it.
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and some of the charges are very clear. it's not, you know, a lifetime in prison but a substantial prison sentence. and i expect that paul manafort and his lawyers are talking about the idea of cooperating with papadopoulos. they may never do it. some people do it. some people don't. it may be the case he doesn't have significant things to say that are worth the time on the part of the special counsel's office. i think all those things are in play. we haven't heard the end of it. >> if the president pardons papadopoulos or manafort, is that obstruction of justice? >> i think that's an open question. i think it's certainly a terrible thing for the rule of law. it's a terrible thing for the law and order what is supposed to be about. it sends a terrible message to every prosecutor in the country trying to do his or her job in a neutral way. i think regardless of whether or not he is provable obstruction. there is an argument it could be depending on the surrounding circumstances, it becomes something that congress can think about with respect to -- i'm not saying it's impeachable, but for congress to take action. the house of representatives to
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take action. they don't have to show that every element for a particular statute was met in order to vote for articles of impeachment. >> mike haydyn, you say that the tragedy here is that whether or not there's collusion, there's been kind of a lot of stupidity in the way in which -- the president handled this. welcoming the wikileaks, you know, stuff and things like that. >> yeah, and exactly, fareed. in fact, perhaps all the help that the russians needed was the president to do what he did during the campaign with regard to highlighting wikileaks. i love wikileaks and using wikileaks as a campaign tool. but to come back to what happened this past weekend with regard to mr. papadopoulos, you know, obviously the legal case here is very important. but my personal background looks at what the foreign services are trying to do to the united states, and, fareed, we teach our case officers a step by step
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process to recruit someone. spot, assess, develop, recruit. and now we've got two instances, one with papadopoulos. the other one during the summer at trump tower where it appears if agents of the russian services already got through steps one and two. they were spotting and assessing key people in the trump campaign. that should make every american nervous and should make us demand whatever the legal issue is over here. but at the political level, at the level of defending ourselves that we learn an awful lot about this and make sure this can never happen again. >> let me just make sure i understand what you're saying. what you're saying it now appears clear with two separate examples that the russian government through the intelligence services approached the trump campaign to collude, to offer some kind of support.
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we know from, you know, in the case of donald trump's e-mail. we know from papadopoulos there was initial ascent on the part of the trump campaign. we then don't know what happens. >> that's exactly right. that's why i stopped it at spot and assess. we may or may not find evidence that other things happened after that. but this is absolutely classic, fareed, in terms of a soft, indirect approach by a foreign service. always maintaining the possibility of plausible deniability. but to find out whether or not the individual they were approaching is someone worth their time. >> do you think that the reports we have that papadopoulos briefed trump on this are significant? >> i think there's significant, at least at one level. perhaps not at the -- level. at the political level and at the ethical level, i mean, what
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were people thinking? how much indifference, how much stupidity, how much arrogance is required not to recognize what is going on here and take steps to prevent it. may have been massive nighivity, fareed, but that has implications, too. >> 30 seconds, collusion is not quite a legal term. this is partly a political. but is there a deeper legal this places the trump campaign in? >> any time you have charges against people close to the president is unclear how close papadopoulos was. he may not have been particularly high up. that's a problem. that's a legal problem for the president. not just a political problem. and the people who thought bob moouler was on a fishing expedition. he has shown in bringing three charges against folks that he is aggressive, thorough, quick, and he's far from finished. >> pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. next on "gps" what kills
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now from what in the world segment. you often here about the people killed by terrorism, civil conflicts, and wars across the world. let me tell you about a scourge that kills 15 times more people every year than all the world's violates. it's a problem that donald trump will likely encounter this week in asia. the killer is responsible for three times more deaths globally than aids, tuberculosis, and malaria combined. i'm talking about something responsible for the deaths of the 99 million people every year. it costs $4.6 trillion a year. what is this mass killer? pollution. president trump will travel to beijing this week where pollution is so bad that the u.s. embassy monitors air quality levels and publishes them on a website. china has the second most pollution-related deaths in the world. and now a new report released
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shows just how deadly and costly the world's dirty skies, water, and soil are. it hits the poorest hardest, low and middle income. india tops the list with over 2.5 million dead in 2015 from pollution-linked diseases. that's nearly a quarter of all deaths in the country that year. but pollution emanating from india and china doesn't stay in india and china. it askts the whole region, even the world. air-born pollutants have been detected in los angeles. and vaporized mercury from gold mining in africa be found in tuna fish in america. pollution mostly doesn't kill you. it makes you sick. diseases like diabetes, autism in children, and dementia in adults are associated with forms of pollution. the study found that 14 million years of productive life have
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been lost to pollution-related disabilities. the good news is, much of pollution can be prevented and solved at little cost. the study found that because of such a drain on the economy, every dollar spent on curbing air pollution since the clean air act of 1970 has yielded a return to the u.s. economy of around $30. and with the $65 billion investment in pollution control, the u.s. has accumulated well over a trillion dollars in benefits. there's also evidence that encouraging the public to become eco friendly improves people's health. an effort to upgrade household stoves in rural china showed a link to reducing lung cancer by more than 30%. even if you don't accept the facts about global warming, moving to clean energy and eco friendly policies is a simple, powerful way to save lives and improve the health of human beings and the planet, which we
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inhabit. next on "gps" president trump is in japan now. the first stop of many on his first trip to asia in office. how does trump feel about the other side of the world? and how do they feel about him? i have a great panel to discuss when we come back. and keeps it there longer with lock-in moisture technology skin is petal smooth after all, a cleanser's just a cleanser unless it's olay. grandma's. aunt stacy's. what are the reasons you care for your heart? qunol coq10 with 3x better absorption has the #1 cardiologist recommended form of coq10 to support heart health. qunol, the better coq10. somesend you and your family overwhelrunning. y can...
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donald and shinzo make alliance even greater. those are the words on the cap presented to trump today. trump landed in japan to start the longest trip of his presidency so far. almost a two-week long trip. his other stops are south korea, china, the philippines, and vietnam. trump plans to meet with vladimir putin during the trip, and north korea will be a top topic of conversation with the russian leader, as with all leaders. joining me now to talk about the trip and what it might bring are kurt campbell. an architect of president obama's pivot to asia when he
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served as assistant secretary of state for east asia and pacific affairs. he's now the ceo and chair of the asia group. from singapore, dean of the school of public policy, and the national university there. he was previously homeland security of that country's foreign ministry. alyse, let me start with you. you tweeted and reminded us that president trump is arriving in japan and then south korea against a backdrop of a staggering loss in confidence in the u.s. president. remind us what those numbers are, and why is that drop so precipitous, you think. >> that's right the pugh research center takes the temperature of citizens in various countries around the world, and did so with u.s. alliance partners. south korea and japan. in south korea, when polled in the spring of 2015, south
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koreans expressed 88% confidence in the american president in terms of making a good decision or good decisions on world affairs. that was 88% in 2015. when polled again in 2017, that number dropped down to 17% confidence. it was very much the same picture in japan where the japanese registered numbers up in the upper 70% range, in terms of confidence in the u.s. president. that has dropped it now down to 24%. and it reflects a weariness among the south koreans and the japanese in the u.s. president now and the direction of asia policy in general, following the poll -- pull out of the transpacific partnership agreement and the rhetoric we've seen on north korea throughout the year. >> so, kurt, the president -- in this -- with this backdrop is going to try to solve one of the thorniest problems ever. i think you coined the phrase
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north korea is the land of lousy options. what is he possibly going to be able to do? >> well, look, i think there are two things that the president is going to try to do on this trip. one, to really ratchet up pressure on north korea. he's going to do that in particularly in japan and in china. what he really wants are new measures that will cut off energy supplies to north korea and also make it more difficult for their diplomatics and other international businessmen to operate. but at the same time, he's also going to try to address the thorny problem of bilateral trade balances. these are two of the most difficult challenging issues. so despite the fact he's going to be extremely warmly welcomed in all these capitals. you can be certain that his interlocket and each are anxious about what he's going to demand.
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>> in south korea, in particular, those are complete cross purposes. you have a south korean government that came in, first of all, wanting a less confrontational policy toward north korea. and trump said i want you to take a more headline view, by the way, i want to tear up the trade -- free trade agreement we have between the united states and south korea. i mean, behind the scenes that has a to be a fairly difficult negotiation. >> i think it's very clear that relations between seoul and washington are trending very badly. it's made worse by the fact that there are no senior officials really in the u.s. government that are responsible for reassuring or engaging south korea. and, at the same time, as you suggest, on almost every issue the two governments are really taking very different views. i think you could argue that the real reason that the trump administration is trying to dial up pressure is to convince china
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that we're prepared to take draconian steps. even premeditated military steps to get china to try to reign in north korea more. >> you follow china very carefully. at the end of the day, it's the only country with real influence in north korea. do you think that the trump administration strategy of ratcheting up this pressure of almost putting china in a box will force it to act and turn off the switch or turn off the energy supplies to the ally? >> no, i think it's important to emphasize that china actually is as frustrated with north korea as the united states is. and, frankly, the china could find an -- in north korea, they would do so. they've been trying to do so and they haven't succeeded. but they cannot go for what is called a nuclear option of
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cutting off north korea completely because the collapse of north korea will mean very painful consequences for china. so i agree with kurt that north korea is a land of lousy options. but military option is off the cards. because the price -- the south koreans will pay is enormous. so in the land of lousy options, possibly the least lousy option is actually not talking involving the united states, china, and north korea in the rest to see whether you can find a way of at least containing the problem. because north korea cannot be solved but it can be contained. >> stay there, all of you, we'll get back to you. while america has withdrawn from the transpacific partnership. china is ramping up the aid and ambitions. is there a new superpower rivalry in asia? when we come back. tired of wrestling with seemingly impossible cleaning tasks?
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accused of obstructing justice to theat the fbinuclear war, and of violating the constitution by taking money from foreign governments and threatening to shut down news organizations that report the truth. if that isn't a case for impeaching and removing a dangerous president, then what has our government become? i'm tom steyer, and like you, i'm a citizen who knows it's up to us to do something. it's why i'm funding this effort to raise our voices together and demand that elected officials take a stand on impeachment. a republican congress once impeached a president for far less. yet today people in congress and his own administration know that this president is a clear and present danger who's mentally unstable and armed with nuclear weapons. and they do nothing. join us and tell your member of congress
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that they have a moral responsibility to stop doing what's political and start doing what's right. our country depends on it. and we are back. talking about the president's trip to asia in which china is clearly on the rise. i was just in singapore, i had a chance to visit with you. and my sense was that people in asia believe that the united states is resigning from its leadership role in the world,
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and china is rushing to fill in. but not to fill in the old role to do its own thing. to do its own institutions and methods. its own initiatives. do you think that's true? if so, why? >> well, i think, first of all, let me mention that something important is very good, actually, that trump is coming to the region and spending two weeks. it's important for the united states to register. i'm interested in this region. by the same time, this is clearly the game between the united states and china. it's a long game. and the difference between united states and china is that china is paying a long game and the united states is playing a short game. and that chinese clearly have a very clear, long-term missivisi where they want to be 10 or 20 years from now. they have a vision where they want to go domestically. they have a vision for the
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region. that's why the initiative is a truly brilliant initiative to tie all the neighbors to china's economy. in a kind of sort of win-win fashion. everybody wants new highways and bridges and so on and so forth. so it's important to try and understand the long game of the chinese if the united states want to try to match it in the long run. >> can the united states match it? >> look, i agree with much of what he suggests. but i think the united states has had more success historically in asia than many give us credit for. we have sponsored and supported an operating system of sorts that had built strong trade links, defense partnerships, allowing for problems to be settled peacefully. that's our biggest contribution. it's been supported by bipartisan manner in the united
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states for decades. i think the question is from here is president trump and his team supported to playing an enduring role in the asia-pacific region. much in the way we've done in the past. i think there are a lot of questions about that. i will say, however, for the last 30 years, several years after vietnam and the cold war, there are a lot of questions about america's staying power. lots of belief in american decline. each time we've come roaring back. i'm not terribly pessimistic. i think we can suffer a little bit over the next course of the next couple of years. we have to understand that the challenge that china presents is greater. we have to step up our game substantially. >> elise, one of the places that the president will go to is the philippines, where he confronts somebody who is -- president duterte who was accused of massive violations of human
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rights. you know, many ways kind of destroying or eroding philippine democracy. do you -- historically this has come up when president of the united states he reads the riot act to the president or the regime at least privately. do you think any of that is going to happen? >> that's an open question because president trump has praised the president in the past for his drug war which is arguably against due process and the rule of law. it's an interesting contrast to what president trump is doing tomorrow in japan which is meeting with families of abductees by north korea from japan to highlight north korea's human rights abuses. it's interesting that he will be highlighting the abuses by north korea and may not highlight the visas of a different kind.
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that remains to be seen. >> in vietnam what kind of reception do you expect he will get? a controlled regime and one that has over the last few years been mending ties with the united states at a dramatic pace. >> they just added a state dinner in hanoi that was tacked on in the last couple of days. that was unexpected which will be pomp and circumstance, but again, signalling of mending of ties between the united states and vietnam. also this back end of the trip in the philippines are for these multilateral conferences. apec and asean which is important for him to be there to say we have not abandoned our multilateral commitments. >> one of the places the president is not going to be -- go ahead. >> i was just going to say it's interesting as you travel around
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the region, the ones that you hear coming up is the idea of the saudi model. lots of pomp and circumstance. big purchase of the sales and a way to try to make pleasant with president trump. >> that is easier to do in some ways in the more controlled societies than the open democracies. >> the only place that will meet with real demonstrations will be in south korea. that's where he will see putin. is that they can make its mark. it is a chinese-sponsored or chinese forum.
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>> i have good news for you. it's an asean initiative. one word that has not been mentioned is a book called the asean miracle. they played a very valuable geopolitical role by providing the only platform in the region where the great powers can talk to each other when they have difficulties like when china and japan to talk to them over there. i am actually very happy that president trump had to extend his day by one day to attend. it's not just about putin. it's about a region to the southeast where they have a huge reservoir and good will towards america. america has been investing in the region for a long time and has been doing the rate thing
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for a long time. there are reservoirs and the fact that president trump had to extend by one day to carry on with the asean is a very big deal and i'm delighted he is doing it. that will make a difference too. >> you have the last word. do you think that at the end of the day this countered some of the chinese initiatives or do we need to announce something on this trip, something to combat the initiative or something like that? >> the truth is as a person who planned many trips in the past, this is a planner's dream. the president has given everything that you could want in terms of times with leaders and time on the ground. this is the longest trip we have ever seen starting in hawaii and getting briefed by the
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commanders. the question is now how will he perform? can he build personal rapport and get the chinese to acknowledge they need to work with the united states and not just compete with them? will we be able to underscore that our commitment to the region is enduring and we want to trade with the region and we are not seeking simply to cutoff trade agreements with asian nations. all of this hangs in the balance. there is a real prospect of securing our position at least in the short-term. it all rides on one person. president trump. as the same thing in the united states, i see here in japan. he is not terribly popular, but people are obsessed with every step he is making. >> as all over the world. we will be back. sulin victoza® lowers a1c, and now reduces cardiovascular risk. victoza® lowers my a1c and blood sugar
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>> this is faseed zakaria. thanks for all who joined me and thank you for being part of my program. see you next week. happening now in the newsroom -- >> we are in the midst of having major discussions on many subjects including north korea and trade. >> trump's whirl wind asia trip kicking off with a strong message to north korea. u.s. and japan stand together. plus fighting words from former interim dnc chair, donna brazile. >> for those who told me to shut
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