among the dead, the 14-year-old daughter of the church's pastor. eight people from a single family are gone. the toll of pain here cannot be estimated. think about it. just by the numbers, you have over 10% of the entire community has been affected directly by this. that's before you get to family members, loved ones, and this is a place where everybody knows everyone else. and we saw that pain on display last night, a candlelight display. pa people are out here, they're holding on to each other and they're holding on to their faith. we're also getting some new details about the investigation. for that, let's bring in ed lavendera. there's been a lot of speculation about moetive. you've got big new information on that. >> this gunman lives in the town of new braunfels, which is about 40 miles away. which begs the question, why would this man drive 40 miles and pick this particular church, kind of here, so far away from

san antonio. just spoke with the sheriff here, and he says that the in-laws of the gunman attended this church here in sutherland springs, texas. but they were not in attendance yesterday. so that appears to be some sort of connection. however, the sheriff does say at this point, they still don't have any kind of firm confirmation on what exactly the motive was behind that. that helps explains what brought him here to this particular church. the sheriff also did tell us a little while ago that the gunman appears to have suffered two different types of wounds, wounds from the resident civilian that approached the scene and started firing at the gunman. that it is possible, it seems very likely that that civilian did wound the gunman and there was also -- the gunman also had his own handgun and also could have shot himself, as well. so those are the details, as we take you back to what was a horrific morning that unfolded here in the town of sutherland springs, east of san antonio.

>> cnn is learning more about the man believed to have opened fire at this small baptist church in sutherland springs, texas. law enforcement sources tell cnn the suspected killer is 26-year-old devin patrick kelley, who once served in the u.s. air force. kelley was court-martialed in 2012 for assaulting his spouse and child. he served a year in prison. in 2014, kelley was discharged from the air force for bad conduct. >> we are dealing with the largest mass shooting in our state's streehistory. >> police say the suspect began his rampage around 11:30 a.m. sunday morning. dressed in all-black tactical gear and a ballistic vest, he began firing from outside the church during sunday service. he then entered the church and continued his assault, killing dozens. ♪ >> reporter: this video taken last sunday shows just how small the congregation is.

the pastor's own 14-year-old daughter, annabelle pomeroy, is among the dead. eight members of one family were also killed. including a pregnant mother. at a nearby store, employees recalled hearing shots ring out. >> this was semiautomatic fire. this was rapid fire. we were flabbergasted. >> reporter: a law enforcement official tells cnn that kelley legally purchased the ruger ar-style rifle used in the attack back in april of 2016. but when filling out the paperwork for his background check, kelley indicated he didn't have any disqualifying criminal history. police say a local resident confronted the gunman at the church. >> as he exited the church, a local resident grabbed his rifle and engaged that suspect. the suspect dropped his rifle and fled from the church. >> the suspect fled the scene, but that resident and another man pursued him for 11 miles at high speeds. >> gentlemen with the rifle came

to my truck as the shooter took off and he briefly -- he briefed me quickly on what had just happened and said that we had to get him. and so that's what i did. >> reporter: johnnie langendorff said he crashed. president trump reacted to the massacre half a world away, during a press conference with the japanese prime minister. >> this isn't a guns situation. fortunately, somebody else had a gun that was shooting in the opposite direction. this is a mental health problem at the highest level. >> reporter: now this small, tight-knit community comes together to remember those killed and hurt in sunday's carnage. >> there's so much love for one another. there's no room for hate. >> reporter: so to recap here these new developments. it appears the in-laws of this gunman belong to this particular

church here in sutherland springs. the sheriff says that that family was not in attendance yesterday, but that it appears that that could be the connection and maybe starts painting a picture of exactly what the motive was. >> common sense dictates it can't be a coincidence. we'll see how law enforcement fills in the blanks. thank you for giving us the latest. joining us now, let's bring in cnn law enforcement analyst, james gagliano and cnn counterterrorism analyst, phil mudd. i don't think you need to be an expert to connect the fact that this murderer's in-laws attend this church here. obviously, phil's in a big blank about what would have brought him here. >> that's a pretty big piece there, chris. it's not definitive, because i believe there's got to be a lot of harvesting of forensic evidence, the social media platform, getting human intelligence, talking to people in and around the community and folks that would have known this gunman, who apparently would have lived about ten miles north of san antonio, but that is a pretty critical piece right there. we know that five years ago, he

was essentially court-martialed, spent a year in the brig for laying his hand on his wife and his children -- or his child. but now we know that the church, actually members of his congregation, hit the in-law's families. what was the triggering event here? what caused him to wait this long, essentially three years after separation from service and five years from his court-martial? that's the perplexing piece right now. >> james, quick follow. why do we care what his motive was? >> chris, people have been asking this all over the place. you know, why is motive so important? from the law enforcement perspective, we want to make sure that, a, we didn't miss anything this this cretant's path. if this is a trend, what can we do? whether it's petitioning the legislative process, on the security end that law

enforcement could do, or if it's things that we could help train our community, the citizenry to be more aware to prevent something like from happening again. >> we'll see where they go on those things. phil, let me ask you something. in terms of from a terror perspective, just to repeat what we said in the last hour, it's still something that's of hot curiosity for people. you say, you walk into a church, kill a bunch of people, how is it not terror? your answer. >> to commit an act of terror, you have to have a political motivation. for example, you might want to protest overseas what's happening in afghanistan or syria or iraq where america has a military commitment. in this country, you might want to protest things like racial inequality and go after someone because of their race. this person, if he's killing someone because he's got anger towards maybe it's his in-laws or financial situation or maybe it's mental health issues, those aren't political issues. and if you kill someone because you're angry, you're not committing an act of terrorism. >> right.

the administration is a political issue. and the governor of texas will hopefully come on with us in a little bit and says this man, james, was denied a carry permit or a right to carry permit, but he did fill out paperwork that allowed him to buy this rifle and while a dishonorable discharge, according to a law that was passed in 1968, would have disqualified him, a bad conduct dismissal from the service didn't. are we just dealing with inconsistencies in logic here? >> we talked about this in the earlier hour, chris, and you're absolutely right. >> but we didn't know that thing about the governor. when we talked about it last, james, the governor is saying he was denied some type of permit under law because of his past, but it wasn't like a complete ban, evidently. >> right, he was able to own a weapon, but that's vastly different from a concealed carry permit. >> right. and texas is open carry, james, just for the legal distinction. this is an open carry state.

>> and we know for certain he applied for it in texas. if that's the case, again, we gook to tgo back to the six different reasons you be be separated from the service, an honorable discharge, a general discharge under honorable conditions, an other than honorable, a bad conduct discharge, a punitive discharge, or a dishonorable discharge and an entry-level separation. the fact that he could be discharged with a bad conduct discharge, a punitive discharge, after a court-martial, and still be legally able to procure weapons, to buy and own weapons is central. i can't understand, if you have a misdemeanor and there's violence attached to it, you are precluded from owning weapons, but if you have a misdemeanor in the military, under the military code of justice, you can still own a weapon. it's preposterous. >> well, also, look, a little bit of a common space between left and right on this is administration and effective administration of law.

you obviously have a gap and an inconsistency here, phil mudd. people say, what law would have made a difference? enforcing these laws and having consistency with them, maybe you would have ended up in a different spot with this guy, maybe you would haven't. and you have president trump weighing in on this on his trip to asia. he's in japan, that's a big population, they deal with lots of different kind of violence, but they don't have mass murders like this. i'm sure it won't come up in their conversation, but it's worth asking. >> the basic questions to me mind would be, if someone has a history of assault, how do they get a weapon? do we have a national database of people with assault convictions? the same would hold true in my word for psychological problems. if it turns out he had some kind of psychological, do we have a national debate that people shouldn't have access to a weapon. you're raising a bigger question that has to do with humility in

the united states. this country suffers from a lack of humility. let's look north border, canada, remarkably lower murder statistics than this kus. to the east, united kingdom, remarkably lower incidents of violent crime and murder than this country. and as you mentioned, the president of the united states is in japan, incredibly low incidence of murder in japan. i suppose he could ask the japanese prime minister why that is, but i'm afraid the answer will be an inconvenient truth, it has to do with weapons and we don't want to ask that question. >> you have cultural implications here. sometimes it's about not wanting to ask the question, other times it's about not having a good answer. and sometimes in times of great pain, it's hard for your leaders to want to discuss about something where they can't give you any really satisfaction, james. and you've studied this on so many different levels. there has to be a reason it happens to us more than it does other places. >> sure, chris. we know that in a country of

approximately 330 million people, there are basically one weapon per citizen. and the argument is going to be that this subject was interdicted and eventually taken down by a law-abiding citizen with a rifle. the issue is, we've got to come together on this, and i think law enforcement and veterans are the right place to start, because most of us are fervent supporters of the second amendment. but this type of -- to your point, proliferation of mass casualty events like this. we have to do something. not doing anything and expecting a different outcome, chris, is the definition of insanity. >> people just need to do a google search and they can look at what's happened in the last ten years and where and why. gentlemen, thank you very much. i want to bring in a special guest right now. wilson county sheriff, joe tackitt jr. he's overseeing the investigation into the church. he's been here keeping his arms around this country.

sheriff, i'm sorry to have to meet you under these circumstances. your reputation here is as a strong man who's very sensitive to the needs of his community. and i cannot imagine, even with all of your experience, that anything prepared you for what you had to walk in to this house of god and see. >> no. there is nothing that could prepare you for what happened here yesterday. >> what did you tell yourself and your men when they had to go in there and start processing the crime scene. i know it's the job, but -- >> it's the job we have to do. and we just appreciate all the help that we've gotten from all the different agencies and the state. and you know, we still got a lot of work to do over there. but we're going to get it done. we're going -- >> okay, obviously, we lost chris there for a second. he is in texas for us on the ground, dealing with the aftermath of that mass shooting at the church. we will get him restored as soon

as possible. meanwhile, president trump calling all of this the deadliest mass shooting in texas history. he says it's the result of a mental health problem, not an issue with gun laws. we discuss all of that when we come back. last year, he said he was going to dig a hole to china. at&t is working with farmers to improve irrigation techniques. remote moisture sensors use a reliable network to tell them when and where to water. so that farmers like ray can compete in big ways. china. oh ... he got there. that's the power of and.

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it's very unfair, it's very bad for our country. >> that was president trump weighing in on the mueller probe as the trove of leaked documents called the paradise papers purports to show that another top trump official also has ties to russia. let's talk about all of this. joining us now is cnn legal analyst and robert mueller's former special assistant at the department of justice, michael zeldin. and former federal prosecutor, mario regnnagnattregnatty, he i candidate for illinois attorney general. gentlemen, great to have both of you. rena renato, that was president trump talking to journalist cheryl atkinson. he went on to say that he's not under investigation, he said. he said, no one has ever told him that he's under investigation. he does not believe that he'll be interviewed by robert mueller. so, renato, would someone have told him if he was under the investigation? would he have had a target letter or some sort of indication that he was the source of an investigation? >> almost certainly not. so federal prosecutors are not

in the habit of sending you a target letter or giving you a phone call, saying, hey, we're investigating you right now. usually, defense -- you know, people who are in a position where they're the subject of an investigation learned because their friends get interviewed, people they know get subpoenas. so, for example, in the president's case, the white house has received document requests for information relating to his actions. they've received document requests, if "the new york times" and "washington post" reported correctly, regarding the firing of james comey and the firing of flynn -- >> so that means what? that he is under investigation? >> i don't think there can be any serious question that he is under investigation, given those document requests. they have been reporting that his own attorneys have been presenting arguments to mueller about whether or not obstruction of justice can be committed by the president. they wouldn't be doing that if they didn't think he was investigating obstruction. >> michael zeldin, do you agree? >> i do agree. and i also think that the manafort indictment, perhaps, is a bit of a template for where

mueller is looking at crimes unrelated to collusion. because manafort engaged in activities that were collateral to the collusion inquiry, but mueller found to be legally actionable. and i think the same inquiry may be made of trump's financial dealings and kushner's financial dealings and flynn's financial dealings, and cohen's financial dealings. so the president may wish it so, but i think it is not. >> let's talk about wilbur ross. "the new york times" reports yesterday, let me read it to you, after becoming commerce secretary, wilbur l. ross jr. retained investments in a shipping firm he once controlled that has significant business ties the to a russian oligarch subject to american sanctions and president vladimir putin's son-in-law. so this is new information, renato. this is something that perhaps should have been disclosed or maybe investigators have just stumble on?

hard to know. this is part of what they call the paradise papers. >> that's right. so, look, we don't know all of the specifics yet. i haven't read through all of those papers yet, but certainly this is something that should be disclosed and it could be a real problem for the secretary if there were, you know, a material nondisclosure by him. in other words, a disclosure about something that would have mattered. so i expect this to continue. and i will say, just, i think the public over a period of time is going to wonder why there happen to be all of these connections between administration officials and russia. i think at a certain point, it's no longer a coincidence. and i think that could have potentially a political affect, as well. >> so michael, wilbur ross, cnbc this morning, aired an interview with wilbur ross about this. they said it was previously taped. we're not sure when. but here's what aired this morning. listen to this. >> the company not under sanction is just like any other company, period. it was a normal commercial

relationship and one that i had nothing to do with the creation of it. i had nothing to do with the negotiations. and do not know the shareholders that were apparently sanctioned at some later point in time. >> okay. michael, what do you think of that response? >> well, it's hard to sort it out completely. the way the paradise papers lays it out is ross owns an interesting in navigator, which does business with a company called cyber, which is owned in part by people who are on the sanctions list. they refer to it as ofac, office of foreign assets control, makes it illegal for americans or any u.s. person to have financial dealings with people who are on the sanctions list. some of the people related to cyber are on that sanctions list. >> but just to stop you, because secretary ross is making a distinction between the company

being sanctioned and the people being sanctioned. so here's what he says about this. let me just read it to you so that you understand what his rationale is. most importantly, the company that is our client, itself, was not then sanctioned, is not now sanctioned, and was never sapgssapgs sanctioned in between, so there is nothing whatsoever improper. so who does that change your calculus, michael? >> it doesn't. people who have a controlling interest or an interest over a certain percentage have an economic interest in that company. i think under ofac, you should not be dealing with that company because of the collateral relationship they have with others. i don't think that's availing. even if it is technically legally availing under ofac, as a matter of appearance or governmentet etthics, it's justd form. and i expect that we'll see that the inspector general of the commerce department will look into this and we'll see whether or not he was fully ingenuous

when he testified on the hill at his confirmation hearing, where he indicated that he had divested himself of navigator, but in fact, he seems not to have completely divested himself of it. so i think that this is a problem for him. >> how pig of a problem, renato? >> well, potentially it could be a crime if he knowingly and willfully lied to congress. that is a federal crime. so the question, i think, is could he use for example, the excuse you just gave as a reason why he didn't reveal this to congress, potentially? that's typically why it can be a challenge to prosecutor a false statement case, because ultimately you need to prove that the person had it in their mind and was deliberately being false. so the question, i think, is to whether or not he's in legal jeopardy is a more difficult one. >> michael zeldin, renato mar yacht ty, thank you for helping us sift through this legal

thicket. let's go back to the texas where chris is on the ground. >> the governor and i are here, we had a power outage. when we come back, we have new information. stay with us. i'm ryan and i quit smoking

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all right. we're here in sutherland springs, texas, and we have wilson county sheriff, joe tackitt jr. sir, thank you for being with us. >> yes, sir. >> thank you for your patience of waiting for the technical difficulties. one of the menacing questions here is why would this murderer come to this beautiful little place and do this? you have some information that gives you a sense of motive? >> well, we know that his ex-in laws or in laws came to church here from time to time. they were not here yesterday. so we don't know why he actually showed up yesterday. but we know that when he left, he left destruction. there was 26 people dead, 25 here and 1 died at the hospital. approximately 25 people in the hospital.

my understand right now, most of them were all stable and we're hoping that they all pull through this and, you know, we've got the families here that want to pull together, help each other and then we're going to do whatever we need to do to also help them. >> this is a job that works on a lot of levels. to a person, people say, you know, the sheriff is a source of strength for us. we know he has his arms around us in this community. and they have a little bit of an idea of what you had to deal with yesterday and into last night. and we were talking, i know you haven't been able to get any rest yet. how can people understand what it is that y'all have to deal, what happened in the church? >> well, we took oaths, and as part of our oath, is to help the people and we're going to do whatever we have to at this point. >> you've been in the business a long time. >> yes. >> not to date you.

but would you ever imagine that you would have to walk into a church in that situation? >> never in my wildest dreams. >> what do you tell yourself? what do you tell your men? >> you know, i haven't had a chance to really talk to all of them that were here yesterday. because a lot of them were off. but they came out, when they heard about it. they got dressed and they came out to help. and, you know, we're a small department. and, so we've got to help each other. >> what's been the hardest part for you in dealing with this emotionally so far? >> the children. the children. you know, that's always the hardest, is wherever there's children involved. >> it's hard to know, what somebody finds in their hard, to knowingly take out kids. >> that's the truth. you know, the man went through there or the creature, whatever you want to call him, went through there, firing, you know,

an assault rifle and took no mercy on anyone that was there. >> i don't know that you even want this kind of evidence, but that church did put services online. we were able to see what the inside of the church looks like and see the passion of the congregation there. was it put on video? is that something that would be helpful to you? is that something that you know of? >> there was very little on video yesterday. very little. for some reason. >> do you see that as almost a blessing in this situation? there's not going to be a trial. the guy is gone. >> yeah, the guy is gone, there won't be a trial. you know, do you want a trial? do you want the person -- in a situation like this, i don't think so. i think the people that were in the church, the people that are citizens here, the people around

the world, they don't want to see somebody like that to live. you know, after they have done what they did. so, you know, it's -- it's just -- it's just a terrible situation all the way around. i mean, you know, there was a lot of -- well, they were all good people that were there in the church, we know that. but a lot of family members that, you know, were lost and, you know, it's tough. i mean, i know there's one family that there's six or seven. and that's going to be something that's really hard for them to deal with. they're good christins. >> well, they're going to be tested now. >> they are. >> the family that runs this church, they lost their little girl. we've been showi ining her pict this morning so people can understand what was taken. >> right. >> they weren't here, but

what -- tell us about them as a family and what you know of them? >> well, the pastor has been here for several years. he works for this congregation, he plays for this congregation. and he's just a good all-around person. so, you know, why -- you know, you have to deal with a situation like this. we don't know. >> a man who came in to subfor h him or the equivalent lost his life. >> lost his life, could have happened any other day, he wouldn't have been here. but, you know, yesterday was the day that was chosen for it to happen. >> and obviously, this was no random act. this man knows what sunday means to a congregation. he knows where people are going to be, especially in a small town. >> a small town. >> if you want to find a concentration of humanity, you go to a church in texas on sunday. and he knew that. >> yep. >> what do you say to the man who stepped up when he heard the

gunshots? >> i say he's a hero. i don't -- >> i don't think there's any question about that. >> had he not done what he did, we could have lost more people. >> because it's not known that this was over in the mind of the murderer. >> very true. >> just because he committed. wentz. there are other weapons in the vehicle, you believe? >> there are other weapons, my understanding. i mean, even though he dropped the one, there's another church a couple of miles down the road. he could are stop there had. who knows. >> you have to deal with the immediate, still processing the scene. you've got to believe able to give family soms closuies some . how important is that? we were talking when the power went out, my heart sunk when you guys were slow with account coming out of it, because i knew what that meant about processing the scene. how important it is for you to try to help these families. i know what kind of questions they're asking you and i know you can't answer. >> we're going to give them all the support we can. first, with ef-to deal with what's over here at the scene yet. and then we're going to be here

for the families. >> how long do you think it will take before people can put people to rest? >> it's going to be a good while. >> it's just too -- >> too early right now. >> well, we know why that is. >> yeah. >> that's your job. one of the jobs that came out of this. and you spoke to this when you were cautioning people to be sensitive here is, what can we do? what can we do? the president weighed in. he's in asia. >> right. >> but he weighed in. he understands the significance of this. i think we all do now, at this point. >> yes. >> can't believe how much of this we've seen these days. the president says, i think we're looking at a mental health problem of the highest order. as a lawman, do you think that that's where we go? you know, is mental health and what we do about mental health, or do you think it's just an act of evil and there's nothing you can do? >> well, there's a lot of mental health issues, we know that. and we just wish there was more

help for these people. >> is that on us? do you think that's on -- is there a lesson that -- i mean, you can't make these people come back. you can't fix what happened here. >> you can't fix what's broke like that. >> but in your experience and now what you're living through, do you think we need to look at it and figure out, there's got to be something so you don't wind up with the same set of ingredients that leads to evil? >> it needs to be looked at more. and we need more places to put these people, to try to help them. >> there's a sensitivity issue that comes up that i respect and i understand, but not completely, which is, don't talk about it now. give them their time, give them their time. but as you know, because you're one of them now, sheriff, nobody want answers more than you guys do. you don't want anybody else to ever have to look at what you had to look at. >> no, we don't. >> but we'll hear from that lawmakers who don't want to take it on, because it's too hard, sheriff. because they can't give a nice, quick fix. but you think that, give the

respect to the dead, give the respect to the families and take it on. figure out what you can do, if anything. >> we'll do whatever we need to do here, you know,. >> and the leaders, you want the same out of leadership? >> we want that also. >> well, sheriff, look, i wish there was something that anybody could do to make your job easier. >> well -- >> i do hope you understand how your community respects and appreciates what you've been doing for them here. >> i'm going to continue. >> thank you, sheriff. thank you for taking the time. god bless. >> yes, sir. >> so there's the sheriff. he gave you updates in terms of this picture of motive. why would a man come to a church on a sunday? now there is this information that his in-laws, this is their church. they weren't there, but this is where they would have been on most sundays. now, coming up, you heard the last part of that conversation with the sheriff. what do you do? well, what can we do? what should we do? what must we do? those are questions for the texas governor, greg abbott. and he's going to be with us right after the break. he came here in the immediate

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that report the truth. if that isn't a case for impeaching and removing a dangerous president, then what has our government become? i'm tom steyer, and like you, i'm a citizen who knows it's up to us to do something. it's why i'm funding this effort to raise our voices together and demand that elected officials take a stand on impeachment. a republican congress once impeached a president for far less. yet today people in congress and his own administration know that this president is a clear and present danger who's mentally unstable and armed with nuclear weapons. and they do nothing. join us and tell your member of congress that they have a moral responsibility to stop doing what's political and start doing what's right. our country depends on it.

so when we're trying to figure out what to tell in situations like this, we often come back to what we call perspective. you can't have any perspective on something like this. we've never seen anything like it before. a church during service. so many people taken out in such a small population. you have to remember that and what they're dealing with in sutherland springs. you only have 500 or so people living here. and to have 50 people of your community gone, not to mention their families and loved ones in this little baptist church over our shoulder during services, before noon, on a sunday. kids gone. you saw the pain in the sheriff's eyes when he was talking about what it's like to go in and process a scene like that. they couldn't even come close to a number for hours of how many people they were dealing with inside that church. you know what that tells you about how difficult that is.

last night they had a vigil. the dpmgovernor, greg abbott, w here. a strong move for this community to be able to put his arms around people who are in the worst moments of their lives. the texas governor, abbott, joins us right now. i hope you understand, governor, how much it meant to people here and i'm sure to your entire state, that you were on the scene and had your arms around them in person. >> well, chris, also before that vigil took place, i had the opportunity to go to the community center, just a couple of politblocks away. and in that community center was gathered all of the family members and relatives of those who had been victims of this heinous crime. and i've got to tell you, it was probably the toughest thing that i've had to do as governor, to speak to these victims, to some of the words that would try to touch their hearts. but i've got to tell you that also, i left there and went to the vigil more inspired, because in talking to these family

members, and then them coming up and sharing hugs and kisses and holding hands, you could tell from their hearts that they were going to rely upon their faith in god and that's also exactly what we saw from not just the family members, but also the community members. as you point out, this is a community of only about 500 or so people. and i think i probably spoke with most of the members of this entire community who were there. everybody knew these people who were the victims of this crime and the one thing that i took away from last night is, this is a strong faith-based community. and they are relying upon their faith to strengthen them and that strength remains very stro strong, even today. >> you know, if you believe that nothing is a coincidence, the gospel reading at their service yesterday was matthew 23, and it was the practice what you preach story from the gospel. where jesus is commanding

leaders to actually go out and do what it is that they are hearing from him, to put that love into action. what do you see as your responsibility in a situation like this, going forward? >> well, to follow up exactly on your comment about what the gospel teaches, and that is to put love into action. and one of the women that you interviewed this morning spoke just of that, about how she wanted to respond to this challenge. and that is to focus on the love of god, and focus on connecting with faith. and you may recall that jesus insisted that we act out on that faith by loving and supporting each other and what we saw last night was a community coming together, with love and support for each other. chris, it was the same thing that we saw just two months ago in the aftermath of hurricane harvey, where texans are helping texans. neighbors helping neighbors. and i see this so profoundly in

texas, wherever tragedy occurs, people come together and support each other. >> i hear you, governor. the meaningful distinction, obviously, is one's a natural disaster, one is not. this was not inevitable. this is not natural. and the question comes up, and i know there's sensitivity to it. and i know people say it's not the right time and i just don't agree, governor. so what do you think there is out there for you to look at in terms of how to make it less likely that you see a man like this get access to a weapon like this and be able to do what he did here? >> well, obviously, people want answers. but equally obvious, here we are less than a day after the event happened, where there's more unknowns than there are knowns. like, let me share with you this one fact that i am told by the director of the texas department of public safety, and that is that devin kelley sought to get

a license to carry a gun in the state of texas, but the state of texas denied him the ability to get a gun. so how was it that he was able to get a gun? by all the facts that we seem to know, he was not supposed to have access to a gun, so how did this happen? but chris, that is just one of the unknowns out there. we are in search of answers to these questions and the answers will be coming to light here in the coming days. and before we can solve the problem, we need to know the answers to all of these multitude of questions. >> right. but i think that you're putting your finger on something that's certainly worth exploring a minute after the event, let alone a day and a half, which is, the answer to the question that you're asking. if he was denied a permit on one level, but on another level, he filled out paperwork and was able to get these weapons, that tells even the simple mind that you've got a legal inconsistency here, and maybe it's not about a

new law that would have made a difference, but maybe it's about law enforcement and fixing that problem. how dedicated are you to figuring out where the obvious gap was here and remedying it? >> well, again, it's important that we learn what the information was and what, if anything, happened to allow him to get a gun. but chris, remember this. and that is, at the time this crime occurred, killing was illegal in the state of texas. it's the same kind of thing that you saw in new york just last week, where it wasn't a gun that was used, it was a truck that was used to mow down people in a bike lane. same thing happened in london, where you had people using bombs to blow up a concert area or knives to stab people. chris, there's one thing we need to take away from this, and that is that evil exists in the world. you talked about thes gospel earlier, and that is that there is evil in this world that we must confront. and the way and the attitude the

people of sutherland springs had last night is the best way to confront this evil, is by using the forces of god to confront and overcome this evil. >> it's true. and you've got to look at it in the terms of how evil is motivated and what the instruments of evil are. and the man was arguably one, but so is what was in his hand. i know gun culture is sensitive. i get it. i was raised around it. i know what it means in texas. i know what it means to you. but i wonder if this situation gives you any different perspective. i know that you've been a huge advocate for gun ownership, legal gun ownership. you know, you were called out for when you were tweeting, i know that you meant it tongue and cheek, i've known you a while, governor, when you said, texas is number two in the nation for new gun purchases behind california, let's pick up the pace, texans. i know you mean it. i know you wouldn't tweet that now during a period like now because of the sensitivity. but does this situation give you any different perspective? >> well, as you begin your

question, you talked about motive. and that's one of the loose ends we need to tie up here. and that is, what was the motive? what was the man's situation? everything that we seem to know, and it's important that we don't know all the facts of what i'm about to say, but one thing that we seem to know is that devin kelley was a person with some mental challenges, even seemingly before he entered into the united states air force, as you know, and i think have reported, he was dishonorably discharged. and the things that he did to his family were a sign that there was some level of mental instability. obviously, you have to be very mentally unstable to commit a heinous crime like this. so, once again, one of the challenges we have to deal with is not just evil, but also mental health challenges to address those and things like that are avenues that we can pursue to make sure that we lead to a safer society.

>> do you think that that will happen, coming out of this? that you'll look at mental health differently, that you'll look at the gaps that allowed the this guy to get these weapons differently? >> you know, those are issues that texas addressed in this past legislative session, not specifically with regard to shootings like this, but we did expand the platform that we are using to address mental health issues across the state of texas. we all know that this is something that we must address, as a nation, but also as a state. and that is for all of us to do a better job, to address mental health issues. but as you also know, mental health issues are very complex. not all of them lead to shootings like this. so this is a very profound issue that our country must begin to address more profoundly. >> there's no question about it. and the time is now. governor, thank for taking the opportunity. let me pass along the thanks of this community for putting your arms around them and hopefully you will stay on these difficult questions.

that's what leadership's about. governor, thank you, and our condolences. >> thank you. >> all right. we're going to be right back with some thoughts about what we've learned here and what needs to be dealt with going forward. in the mirror everyday. when i look in the mirror everyday. everyday, i think how fortunate i am. i think is today going to be the day, that we find a cure? i think how much i can do to help change people's lives. i may not benefit from those breakthroughs, but i'm sure going to... i'm bringing forward a treatment for alzheimer's disease, yes, in my lifetime, i will make sure. feel the power of thenew power...smax. ...to fight back theraflu's powerful new formula to defeat 7 cold and flu symptoms... fast. so you can play on. theraflu expressmax. new power.

accused of obstructing justice to theat the fbinuclear war, and of violating the constitution by taking money from foreign governments and threatening to shut down news organizations that report the truth. if that isn't a case for impeaching and removing a dangerous president, then what has our government become? i'm tom steyer, and like you, i'm a citizen who knows it's up to us to do something. it's why i'm funding this effort to raise our voices together and demand that elected officials take a stand on impeachment. a republican congress once impeached a president for far less. yet today people in congress and his own administration know that this president is a clear and present danger who's mentally unstable and armed with nuclear weapons. and they do nothing. join us and tell your member of congress that they have a moral responsibility to stop doing what's political and start doing what's right. our country depends on it.

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stay with me, mr. parker. ...saving time when it matters most. stay with me, mrs. parker. that's the power of and. so we've seen two of the deadliest mass shootings in modern american history in just the last 35 days. the latest, of course, here at a church in the small town of sutherland springs, texas. so the question becomes, what will change? and the likelihood, most often, i've been to 20 of these all over the country, seen all kinds of communities affected, the answer is generally nothing. because the solutions are hard, they're complicated, and we do not see the will to address them. sometimes, you see something basic, low-hanging the fruit like a bump stock in las vegas. we were told it was too soon to discuss it. clearly wasn't true. here, alisyn, we see a lapse in

the law that allowed a man who wasn't supposed to get a permit to get one. will they address that? or is it too soon once again? which is, of course, a ridiculous notion. >> yes, and of course, if president trump thinks that this is really just a mental health issue, not a gun issue, than he needs to explain why he signed a bill into law in february allowing better access for mentally unstable people to get guns. so he needs to explain why he would do that. >> he removed the obama regulation about certain people with social security checks who can't handle their own finances, but are eligible for weapons. he removed that regulation. it was about politics. it was done quietly. >> why? >> and we'll see what happens now. alisyn, thank you for the coverage in new york. we are here in texas. there is breaking news in this investigation. "cnn newsroom" with poppy harlow, john berman is here. and he'll bring you the news right after this break. ♪

psoriatic arthritis tries to get in my way? watch me. ♪ i've tried lots of things for my joint pain. now? watch me. ♪ think i'd give up showing these guys how it's done? please. real people with active psoriatic arthritis are changing the way they fight it... they're moving forward with cosentyx®. it's a different kind of targeted biologic. it's proven to help people find less joint pain and clearer skin. don't use if you are allergic to cosentyx. before starting cosentyx you should be checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms of an infection. or if you have received a vaccine, or plan to. if you have inflammatory bowel disease tell your doctor if symptoms develop or worsen. serious allergic reactions may occur. with less joint pain, watch me. for less joint pain and clearer skin, ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx.

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all right. good morning, everyone. i'm john -- all right. good morning, everyone. john berman here in sutherland springs, texas. this is the site of the deadliest mass shooting in the united states in the last 35 days. poppy harlow is with me in new york. 26 people were killed here. 20 others hurt. the victims range from 5 yea