breaking news tops the hour. it's also a piece of a picture of a president appearing to disengage from certain realities that he himself once acknowledged and he himself in uninstance apologized for. he apologized in that "access hollywood" tape of being able to grab women's genitals and get away it. and now he's been casting doubt with at least three people, whether it's his voice on that tape. also there's no reporting that the president has adopted old doubts about former president obama's birth certificate. and there's late reporting from jim acosta that the president believes he would have won more votes if he would have not abandoned those

birther believes. david axelrod, how concerned are you tonight that the president of the united states seems to be operating in a different reality when it comes to any number of topics? >> yeah, i am concerned, anderson. because i sat next to the oval office for a couple of years. i saw the kinds of issues that come across that desk. i know the power that is reposed in that office. and if the person who sits there is delusional, that poses all kinds of very, very frightening scenarios. and when you read particularly the things that he's saying in private, the denial of his own comments that were on tape, rehashing of the discredited birther theory, going back to the votes in the election and the notion he actually won the popular vote, these are -- these are delusional comments. and it is very, very unsettling to think that the president of the united states would harbor

them. >> david gergen, is it possible there's some sort of strategy here? the head of news max basically saying this is no the different than what president kennedy did shaping their own myths. >> that's nonsense. cam lot was actually after his death. they didn't use it as a narrative during his life. listen, i don't think we know for certain. there could be other reasons behind this. this could be totally a diversion so we're not talking about the tax bill every night, and he might have more trouble passing it. it could be a diversion because something's been triggered by mueller elsewhere or tha he's just really, really unhappy as maggie haberman has been suggesting from the "new york times". but i do think the most serious question is whether he's losing

his grip. and that is very dangerous. both of us have been there at the white house. the president occasionally has to make really, really tough decisions that are a matter of life and death, and you want a man of absolutely clear mind and able to absorb things. it's reached the point, anderson, where i've been wondering whether his family and some other top people in the white house ought to be conferring among themselves about what might be called, in other w other ways, some sort of intervention and really try to help him, because it's so important to the country. >> david, i just want to drill down with you on this. you're suggesting -- you think that things have or that there are questions about his -- i don't know, his frame of mind and his family should do an intervention or think about an intervention? >> i believe, anderson, there's sufficient questions. we don't have answers. and those of us on the outside really don't know what's going on as well as we should.

but if you look at the overall pattern of behaviors and the question that is arise and the seriousness of this, then you have to say, shouldn't people in the white house be trying to help him? and if it requires an intervention on their judgment, then yes you have to do that. >> david axlerod, maybe some supporters will say, look, this may not be traditionally presidential behavior, but does it really rise to the level that, you know -- the word intervention being used? >> well, look, that's why i made the distinction between his public comments and what he's done privately. he's had a series of provocative really december despicable tweets in the last 24 hours that seem unhinged but could be written off as to some strategic

objective. but the fact that he in some private conversations earnestly declares things that are just not so, are real that -- that somehow these kind of conspiracy theories are reality, that's very, very unsettling. that is much different than his public pronouncements. >> there are people who say, look, this is what he's done all his career as a real estate developer, i guess to paraphrase christopher ruddy, he's sort of kind of invented his own myth and talked about the buildings being the biggest buildings, or even if they weren't, couldn't this just be an extension of what he's always done except we're now seeing it up close and the stakes are that much higher because you have the possibility of a war with north korea? >> honestly, i don't really care much about what he did when he was a real estate developer. now he's got nuclear weapon. now he's the most powerful man on the planet, so it really does matter whether he's delusional or not. i don't think it's really a

strategy to say you know that tape that you heard my voice on, that i admitted was my voice and that i apologized for, i actually don't think that was my voice. by the way, in all of this, i'm wondering where was billy bush standing there when this conversation took place, lost his job in this conversation. i don't think this is sort of in the realm even of trump lore. this just seems completely unhinged. >> david axelrod, david gergen -- >> yeah just in that situation, look they don't need to make a big deal of this. they don't need to do anything publically. but when the president is having some trouble, you normally have the doctor talk to him, understand what's going on. tat happens regularly in

presidencies, especially as people get older. it shouldn't shock us. but rather those of us on the outside need to say, if the president needs some help, whatever the help may be, he should get it. it would be good for him and the country. >> do you remember candidate trump and his doctor and his doctor's letter. >> do you want the gastroenterologist making these calls? >> that's a point. >> david gergen and david axelrod, thank you. quick reminder david axelrod's guest on the ax files this weekend is -- hanks. is this just unusual i want to bring in the panel. is this just unusual presidential behavior or is this something to be concerned about? >> i mean, it's obviously something to be concerned about, but i don't know that it's any crazier than insisting that barack obama wasn't born in the united states. if you go back to his conspiracy theories, this is something he's

done for a long time. >> which is something he's said to do, relitigate -- >> i think this is -- he has long had a sort of distorted reality. i think this idea that he sees things differently, that he can kind of change what happened. i don't know, i think this is kind of consistent with what he's been, and it seems a little extreme because he's the president of the united states and it's so dangerous it seems worse. but it does seem consistent with the person who was running for president, to me. >> kirsten, i think he's backsliding. he did come out, almost under duress, and say, okay, barack obama was born in america, period. he apologized for the "access hollywood," saying i said it and i'm sorry, and now he's telling people he didn't. so i do worry. i would have a slightly different plan, frankly, than gergen. it's not the family's responsibility. it's not. he's got a complex family. some of them are advisers, some of them are not.

this is general kelly's job. he's the chief of staff. there is some precedent for this in 1986, president reagan's testimony was very cloudy and he had a long time chief of staff person, baker. long time senator from tennessee, and baker asked a staff person to follow him around. just check, do you think he's up to the job? the staffer did and said he's fine. there's no reason to look at the 25th amendment. he's older and has a bad memory, but that's not a problem. that sort of thing i think should be going on at the staff level. general kelly owes it to the office, not the man who holds the office. >> honestly, though, it should be more than general kelly. it should be particularly every republican in washington. there were two senate republicans today. cory gardener was interviewed by wolf blitzer earlier. what did you think? he says i didn't see them, but and or ren hatch, the same thing, i didn't see them, but

he's the best president i've ever served. this is ridiculous. we're given in to possible confrontations with foreign leaders. it's on everybody. i do think the "access hollywood" policy and the dropping of the birther conspiracy during the campaign, shows when he is surrounded, he will back down. but he has to be surrounded and have no other way out. it can be done, but it takes force. >> what do you think? >> i'm a lawyer. i work in the world of evidence and facts. everyone keeps saying apparent. we don't have any facts. >> but we have three sources from the "new york times." >> but everyone says these are apparent comments he's made. no one talking about context, no one's talking about voracity. yes, it's the chief of staff's job to have these discussions with the president. and until the white house comes out and says these are position of the white house or positions of the president, that hasn't happened. >> do you think the president is publicly saying to three people, i don't think that's me on the

"access hollywood," and if he's rebringing up the barack obama citizenship, that would be a concern to you? >> it would be a concern, but the white house isn't saying that. as a matter of fact they're saying just the opposite. they're saying they're taking the same position they took during the campaign, which is those issues were acknowledged and in some cases apologized. >> the people i speak with at the white house, i'm not hearing any of these push back on the "access hollywood" tape or more on president obama and the birther issue. but that's not to say that's not being said. that's not what i'm hearing from a large group of people. to the question of if he's competent to be president, and people were talking about bringing in his doctor, and you all remember the modern-day patch adams. i don't think it's com it's com

issue, but a credibility issue. when we have a president so obsessed he will push out fake vade yos and push out fake conspiracies, that's the problem. we need to demand factual information. >> you profiled him when he was citizen trump and a real estate developer. from everybody he we talked to, this is what he did. >> it's a lifelong pattern. it goes back to the 1970s, but i do think he's getting worse. and i think a part of that may be we're exposed to more of what he says, more people hear it, more people are going to the press to talk about it. >> it matters more to more people. >> it matters more and it matters to the world. and before it didn't matter to the world. it mattered to some bankers who lost money and all kind of folks who got hurt by his mistakes and his distortions, but this is now a distorted leader of the free world. and there are facts here. the tweets that you were talking about of these conspiracy theories, ideas, these are facts.

and i think the white house record of distortion and lies in going back to trying to correct what the president has said in the past, those are facts. so we're now in a situation where we're being led by a person who denies reality. and this starts being self-defeating and then it becomes self-destructive, and it becomes destructive for the country. >> we'll take a quick -- i'm sorry, go ahead. >> the timing of all this and the speculation just calls the whole thing into question. >> i think the timing is he's reflecting on the 2016 election, preparing for what he's going to do on the midterms in 2020. his messaging regards to democrats has been good. he's looking for a narrative to carry him into 2018 and 2020. >> let's hold this talk. we'll continue this discussion after a quick break. also the firing of matt

lauer from the "today" show. some truly extraordinary details of what he allegedly did. booking a flight at the last minute doesn't have to be expensive. just go to priceline. it's the best place to book a flight a few days before my trip and still save up to 40%. just tap and go... for the best savings on flights, go to priceline. america's small business owners. and here's to the heroes behind the heroes, who use their expertise to keep those businesses covered. and here's to the heroes behind the heroes behind the heroes, who brought us delicious gyros. actually, the gyro hero owns vero's gyros, so he should have been with those first heroes. ha ha! that's better. so, to recap -- small business owners are heroes, and our heroes help heroes be heroes when they're not eating gyros delivered by -- ah, you know what i mean.

♪ ♪ give a little bit ♪ ♪ give a little bit... -hello. ♪ give a little bit... ♪ ... of your love to me oh, haha. ♪ there's so much that we need to share ♪

♪ so send a smile and show that you care ♪ ♪ i'll give a little bit of my love to you ♪ when i met my team at ctca, they put together a comprehensive plan, that gave me an opportunity to accomplish my goals, and my dreams. learn more at cancercenter.com as michael said before the break, the behavior we're seeing from the president goes back decades, not backing down, not

apologizing, here's maggie haberman, how she put it in our first hour. >> i think that you have to think with this presidency that we keep looking for a bottom where there's just a limit that he's not going to go any further in terms of either his conduct or reinventing history. and there is no bottom. he will keep doing this. if you look at it in that context, it's not surprising. it is, however, very hard to wrap your mind around because to your point this is one of the few times we have heard him >> he apology pol apologized. >> he apologized and he acknowledged it was him. and there's no kernel of truth he can point to. what he's been doing his entire career is sort of will certain facts as he wants them to be into existence. >> there is an alternative theory on this, i guess you could argue, is that there's a strategy for him to -- again, assuming their reporting is correct, and there's no reason to doubt it because their reporting has held up this last

year, particularly maggie haberman and her team -- is there strategy in bringing up the "access hollywood" tape again or the birther thing again? >> there could be, and i have believed that he's got a strategy, even when he says things that are false, i believe there's a strategy. this week i'm beginning to question that. >> or it could be to distract from north korea or -- >> the tax bill is hugely unpopular and yet it's likely to pass. so more attention on the tax bill is actually bad for passing the tax bill. so there is, perhaps, a strategy here. but when you combine that with other reports from the people closest to him, from the secret of state, who apparently called our president a moron, general mcmaster was reported to, in a private conversation, call him an idiot. these aren't democrats trying to undermine him, these are his closest aides. it's crazy in a sense, but i want to believe he's just dishonest not delusional. >> but i do think some of it is

a distraction, he wants to send people secucurrying around, but also think he has some very bigoted views. we see it in his announcement, talking about mexicans are rapist wheres, and i think he believes this about muslims as well. he tweets this stuff out because he believes this is in fact what's going on in the world. they're going to smash statues of the virgin mary, as if this is a threat in the uk and the united states, i think he believes that, and so he has no problem tweeting this out. he doesn't see any problem with it. you see sarah sanders defending it saying this is what we have to be worried about. we have to be worried about someone attacking someone on crutches? this is not a real threat in the world but they believe it is. >> radical islamic terrorism is a really threat. maybe it wasn't the best choice, and maybe it wasn't the best timing and best choice because of the timing he should really be talking about tax reform and talking about north america and particularly tax reform.

>> i think it's important to look a little bit in history, because i do think trump is not delusional. he's being very politically savvy, and i don't endorse what he's doing. but these issues are good for republicans. the same way anticommune in addition was good for mccarthy in the 1950's. looking back to the speech he gave in west virginia where he said i have a list of 218 people of communists working inside the united states government, and he never produced that list. and it dipped down and we had a month in hearings and millions and millions of people tuned in and watched. ult pat ultimately he was censured and he died in office and it paved the way for richard nixon. the way for richard nixon. but these issues are powerful. trump tapped a fear -- when sarah huckabee says -- >> you're saying he's talking about real issues. again, he's tweeting out videos from a far right -- it's not the

way to do it. >> not the best way to do it, but -- >> it's not just a political thing. not just the way to do it. he's the president of muslims who live in this country. our military policy, we are supporting muslims in iraq. we're fighting side by side with them. we have been fighting side by side with muslims in afghanistan. >> we're not fighting side by side with radical islamic terrorists. >> right. but he's labelling everybody with the same broad brush. >> we want to give him credit for actually having some grand plan, we'll give him the credit, this is what his base loves. back in 2010, running a governor's race, birthers were all coming out of the wood works trying to attach themselves to a candidate. and clearly he wants to give to give red meat to his base when it comes to the muslim ban

and -- >> right. david dukes tweeted out thank god for donald trump today. >> in his mind, he's tweeting out these fake videos to throw red meat to his base, and they're over here chewing on this red meat while the rest of us are going if you want to talk immigration and fund our military, let's talk about that and don't tweet about these fake videos. right now his team is saying he wanted to talk about national security and immigration because democrats are all for amnesty, if that's what he wanted to talk about, let's have a discussion. >> we're going to continue this discussion in a moment. what we'll focus on the tweets, the re-tweets actually of far right group known as britain first. when a british member of parliament joe cox was shot and stabbed to death last year, her killer shouted britain first. what her widower has to say about the re-tweets next. ♪shostakovich playing ♪

from our family to yours... may all your wishes come true this holiday season.

today as we started to talk

about before the break, the president of the united states retweeted three violent disturbing videos, one showing someone attacking a a statue of a virgin mary, a third attacking a disabled person president. white supremacist david duke was thrilled said thank god for trump. prime minister theresa may was not thrilled. she said britain first seeks to divide people overwhelming reject the prejudice rhetoric of the far right which is the an

hit thes at the of the values that. right after that tweet, republican senator oren hatch weighed defending the prime minister on twitter, and to the prime minister's point, the britain first is a radical group. last year joe cox a member of a british parliament and outspoken supporter of parliament was murdered. i spoke with joe cox's husband earlier tonight. here's some of what he said. >> i think we probably got used to a degree of absurdity of outrageous re-tweets and tweets from the president. but i think this felt like it was a different order. here he was retweeting a felon, somebody that was convicted of religiously aggravated harassment of an organization that is a hate driven organization on the extreme fringes, the far, far right of british politics. this is like the president

retweeting the ku klux klan. you know, this is not a main stream organization. ffrt president of the united states, our greatest ally of our country, to be retweeting, to be providing a microphone to those voices. i think everybody no matter what your political persuasion in the u.k. has been shocked by that. >> one of those tweets the president retweeted, allegedly showing the migrant, was a dutch citizen. facts matter. back with the panel. kerrstein, i don't know what you want to ask. >> yes, it's absolutely shocking, there's no question about that. but he's done things like this before. he's retweeted alt right people, and it doesn't seem to bother him. and i just go back to the fact that, i think this is what he believes. i think he believes -- sarah sanders defended him, saying this is a threat we face, i guess meaning radical islam. and i don't know a lot of people would disagree radical islam is

not a problem. but that's what the videos showed. it just showed allegedly, you know know, in the visual allegedly muslims committing some sort of violence in the same way he has talked about mexicans, picking out a random mexican person who's done something bad and putting this on all mexicans and putting it on all muslims, so it's inherently racist. doing this is inherently racist. i think it's what he thinks. >> where did he put it on all muslims in that tweet? can you tell me where that is? >> what's the point of tweeting out three videos showing muslims committing a crime? what is that proving? >> radical islamist terrorists -- >> radical islamic terrorists -- hold on. it was a video of someone breaking a statue of virgin mary. are you telling me that's what we're afraid of? radical islamists smashing statues of the virgin mary? >> the bad things that radical

islamic terrorism represents. they are fake videos, but for you to say he's characterizing all muslims that way is flatout wrong. >> the whole idea of the videos is to stoke fear and dislike of muslims. >> again, bad choice by the original nay or the of the video, probably, not this president. >> you think if the originator of the video made a bad choice and a bad choice, by the way, for a racist bigoted bully and an internet troll, which is what those people are, isn't it like a doubly bad choice or a triply bad choice for the freaking president of the united states? to pick up what some internet troll did? >> it's a bad choice to use that internet troll video no question, but for someone to turn around and say he's now characterizing all muslims that way, that's just flatout wrong. >> where is he praising muslims

or talking about muslims getting attacked? >> what's the point of posting videos of muslims committing acts of violence? that's not what radical muslims do. >> when a right wing white guy allegedly ran down heather meyer, he did not call for an investigation of -- >> he said one they were very nice people. >> one of the things also in the interview you did with mr. cox he said was really compelling and right on was by the president retweeting these videos, it gave validation to anyone who wanted to push messages of hate against muslims. and if the president can do it, then anyone else will do. and this group is an anti-muslim, anti-immigrant hate group over in britain and he basically gave them validation. and for her to come out and david duke to come out and thank the president, i think that sends a really bad message. >> no question these people are

horrible people. >> when david dukes is singing your praises for that particular thing you've done, i would think you might want to reexamine what you're doing if david duke -- >> i think the president would agree that david duke is a horrible person. >> i don't know that, because he's been asked directly about that and claimed to not know who david duke was and claimed to not know what white supremacy was in an interview with david clapper. >> i think what amanda said about how if you've been trying to incite division, then it is the thing that you do. this is the thing donald trump has done for decades. we have to remember the central park five incident. before there were tweets he spent tens of thousands of dollars on advertisements to spread division. >> the mayor of new york was saying, everybody calm down. let's not krus fie these kids before the justice system works.

and donald trump inflamed it wanting to give the death penalty to those fellows. and to get to radical islamic terrorism in the united states, fewer than eight people a year in america since 9/11 have been killed by islamic terrorists in the united states. it's a problem, but it's not the thing the president needs to tweet three distortions about on a random morning. >> the president has a tax bill right now that's going to pass, that is going to do good things for all americans. and was tweeting about something that he shouldn't have been tweeting ability. his brand, this is what he knows. a bulk of his fortune is paced on his brand. he likens that to hotels and vineyards, all kinds of stuff, stake, vodka, i don't know, water. he knows that brand. when he re-tweets he knows full well he is giving his brand and frankly our brand, the american brand, to far right neo-nazis -- by the way, on saturday he retweeted from a website, the

israeli newspaper described as far right anti-semitic conspiracy website. so maybe he's an equal opportunity endorser of hatred, but he knows what he's doing when he uses that trump brand. that's what he's doing. >> with a jewish daughter and jewish son-in-law -- >> then why would he retweet an anti-semitic website? >> he did it when he was a casino owner. he said, i want guys in yamakas counting my money. this guy has a problem with bigotry. he's had a problem with bigotry for decades. >> the secret to any politician who cannot unite -- if you cannot unite, you divide, divide, divide. up next our other big breaking news. a television icon out the door after sexual misconduct allegations. the latest against allegations against matt lauer. what else could come out next. looks a little tight.

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our other breaking news tonight, long time "today" show anchor, matt lauer is out at nbc after a colleague reported inappropriate sexual behavior. here's part of how savannah guthrie reported it today. >> i'm heartbroken for matt. he is my dear, dear friend and partner. he is loved by many people here. and i'm heartbroken for the brave colleague who came forward to tell her story and any other women who have their own stories to tell. and we are grappling with a dilemma that so many people have faced these past few weeks. how do you reconcile your love for someone with the revelation that they have behaved badly, and i don't know the answer to that. >> that one allegation, however, is just the beginning it seems. tonight there are new reports of accusations against lauer, including several in an article that he allegedly dropped his pants in front of a female

employee and wanted a sex act. and "variety" also reports that he gave a different female employee with a sex toy with an explicit note how he wanted to use it on her. bill, had there been rumors -- with weinstein there had been rumors, i guess. >> lots of rumors. >> were there rumors with matt lauer? >> there were rumors of matt lauer being a player. i guess you might say. i never heard rumors of sexual harassment about him. it's very interesting to listen to savannah, who says he's a beloved figure. you never heard that about harvey weinstein, about bill oreilly. that's an unusual situation where you had people saying we love this character, and then you hear this really startling allegation including a new one "the new york times" which is pretty graphic and awful about a sexual assault in the office. >> i think it's awkward to have watch a woman go on the air and break that news and express grief and heart break and have all these tragic horrifying details come out later. i don't know why they put her in that position. to see all these women have to

cleanup the mess after these men i think it's awkward and could be handled in a much better way because everyone's going to back and look at that tape and say why was she heartbroken? was she in love -- it puts her in a bad position. and these networks need to stop doing that. >> sara silverman talked about about this with louis c.k. she said she loved him, and they're good friends and then he did these bad things and how do you reconcile those things, and i think that's a real thing. people do bad things. it doesn't mean they're irredeemably evil and there's nothing good about them. sometimes you have people who are real jerks, the harvey weinsteins of the world, and sometimes you have people who are really beloved. i do know people at the "today" show that love matt lauer, and loved working with him. and then you have to understand sometimes good people do bad things.

>> i think savannah gutry was completely transparent. nbc has still not really told us why they fired their star anchor. with the variety report it's shocking. i thought what we saw from savannah guthrie was a serious news person doing a serious news story on something she's worked with. i thought she was very transparent, i haven't figured it out yet either. >> i'm wondering just from a legal standpoint, if you heard something in the nbc statement, to me they said the current management did not receive any complaints, which seems to distinguish it from prior management. i don't know if that was intentional or not, but it certainly sort of raised questions if my mind. >> yeah, i think there was likely an investigation, likely some internal work that went on there. who knows how they handled things internally there. but there were certainly folks in a legal capacity looking at this thing. >> yeah, i think you do have to put this in some context of what's going on throughout the media.

obviously entertainment business and obviously the political world. this is kind of an epidemic. it's always been there and now it's come out. i think there's an awful lot of behavior that's clearly been under the radar that's pretty out there and offensive and it needs to be exposed. >> it's interesting rivera tweeted out something earlier about the news is flirty business. >> right, and that's just telling, i think. i think that maybe there are a lot of men who think that. a lot of women would say, no, it's not a flirty business. >> fox just condemned that statement, i should point out. >> they just cut him loose. >> you mean lauer, not geraldo. >> right. he hasn't been accused of anything. >> i think that for a long time the media was such a boys club and the men were sort of used to doing what they wanted to do and there weren't a lot of women in positions of power to push back.

so geraldo has been around for a long time, and he's speaking, that was his impression. but i don't think the women think that. i don't think of it as a flirty business. >> in the entertainment industry, there are a lot of women attracted to that business and they didn't have positions of power and they need jobs and they like jobs, and they were easily taken advantage of for that reason. we have to take a quick break. sexual misconduct in the workplace clearly not just a problem in the media. over the last couple of weeks we've also heard allegations against lawmakers in the past couple weeks, they're still in their job. up next we'll hear from democratic congresswoman kathleen rice who left a meeting with members of her own part today because she says they're not taking the issue seriously.

more breaking news tonight.

matt lauer out at nbc facing sexual misconduct allegations. yesterday as media figures are fired quickly, politicians are staying in office, men like john conyers and al franken, and that's on top of at least two unnamed lawmakers who settled cases with taxpayer money. i spoke with kathleen rice about the issue. here's what she said. >> where are the professional consequences for abusers? semin this country's history, have the opportunity to say we are going to lead on this issue and not allow this kind of abusive environment to assist anymore. >> i want to bring into our panel. is there a double standard here for how people in the private businesses are finally being -- how it's being addressed and how it's being addressed in the political realm? >> there seems to be a higher

standard for morning news hosts than members of congress. so morning news anchor gets held to a higher standard. this idea of due process, that's a legal issue. nobody is going to go through a trial and have real due process. you're going to have somebody look at it and say is this a credible accusation? like the "today" show like they did with matt lauer and different people have done. for some reason democrats think that a john conyers or al franken deserve a higher level or shouldn't be held to the same standard as matt lauer. i think they should be held to a higher standard. >> here's what blows my mind for the democrats. the chosest thing the democrats have to the tea party was the women's march that materialized the day after donald trump's inauguration. that political power has nowhere to go. i would be trying to find a woman to become the leader of that, at least the poster person. and the way that nancy pelosi

blew that in the sunday morning interview saying john conyers is an icon. kathleen rice, i see potential for her, because that energy needs somewhere to go. until they figure out how to do that, it's going to flitter away. >> that's a huge debate going on in the private sector. t a lot of times they're agreeing that the confidentiality agreements are a good thing. it keeps it from heading to litigation. where all of this gets aired out in the court of law. and there won't be settlements. and folks, where confidentiality agreements don't exist, may say i'm going to defend my reputation to the end, regardless of the allegations, because i feel like the person who has been accused feels that

they need to be vindicated in court. so the whole issue -- but that changes when it relates to the public sector, i think. so there's a real question when taxpayer dollars are involved. what is the accountability of congress? what's the accountability? what's the process to hold folks accountable and determine whether they need to be made public or not. >> dana bash was reporting today about the process through which a victim reports harassment by a congressman. the matt lauer case, a woman and her attorney went to nbc hr. they investigated immediately, and within 48 hours the guy was gone. apparently there's four, five, six hoops a victim has to go through -- >> it's clearly stacked against the victim. >> completely. and then these agreements are sealed. we don't know about them. and shareholder's money is one thing for the corporation. but this is taxpayer's money. they've got to reform that. >> a news organization, it has to be transparent.

how do they cover any of the other story it is they cover up this? >> now look at matt lauer grilling bill o'reilly. >> and it looks embarrassing that that happened. for a news organization and media organization, they can't play the game the politicians are playing and say, it's not so serious and we're going to cover it up or deny it. what nbc did, at least they acted. they did act. >> and there needs to be mandatory training. some states like california require training on these issues. certainly that needs to happen in congress, and -- >> does it matter when you elect somebody like roy moore? >> or donald trump, with 12 women by name have accused him, and the american people -- more voted for hillary but enough voted for donald trump that he could sneak through the electoral college. >> other thing with congress,

these ndas where you can't talk about it, but conyers and his lawyer can talk, but the woman can never say anything. so i think she needs to be released. >> if you look at it in the context of the private sector world where both parties agree, that's strikingly different from mandating it upon staff in the government. >> we've got to take a break. thanks for everybody for being on the show. coming up, the end of a long day, a weird day. the "ridicu-list" is next. (♪) it all starts with a wish. the lincoln wish list event is here. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down and a complementary first months payment.

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time now for the "ridicu-list." we know there's a lost competing for your attention daily, so this might have slipped under your radar. we've all been using the word velcro wrong. the company that makes velcro wants you to know that you shouldn't say velcro unless it is brand name velcro. and they made a song about it. ♪ we're asking you not to same a name ♪ ♪ yeah >> yeah. so if you say velcro, you're ripping off the brand, much like ripping off that sweet, sweet velcro on velcro sneakers.

you may ask yourself what you're supposed to call velcro if it's knockoff velcro, and that's where the chorus comes in. ♪ [ undiscernible ] [ laughter ] >> i just got to tell them right now, nobody is going to call it hook and loop. how do you know if it's actual velcro or just nasty old hook and loop? or hnl as i call it. why did they put it on tv? the song, i guess is catchy, but it reminds me when they tried to make a dunlder mifflin jingle. ♪ ♪ dundler mifflin

>> i hate it, i hate it. i don't hate it, i just don't like it at all. >> the velcro people are not just concerned with their own brand, they would hike to remind you of other things that you're saying wrong. and yes, they're going sing it. ♪ if you need something to clean up your spot, do it with and not with [ bleep ] ♪ ♪ if you have blood from a boo-boo you made ♪ ♪ if you're exercising with someone you're dating ♪ [ laughter ] >> what a hook and loop segment got this much attention in the '80s when a velcro executive joined david letterman. >> i'll hit the wall and stay there, right? >> yes, theoretically. go high.

>> as high as i can go. [ drumroll ] >> now, that had to make the brand recognition stick on the "ridicu-list." time to turn it over to don lemon. cnn tonight starts right now. this is cnn tonight. i'm don lemon. breaking news on the russia investigation. cnn learning exclusively that jared kushner has met with robert mueller's investigators to answer questions about michael flynn. we'll have more on that in a moment. plus, new details on the stunning firing of matt lauer today in the wake of multiple accusations of sexual harassment. also, 36 hours of out of control behavior from president trump, retweeting hateful anti-muslim videos, attacking the free press, using a slur against native americans in the oval office, and behind closed doors, reviving his racist birther