going to college... buying a home... and not being in debt for it for the rest of our lives. but we're only as strong as our community. who inspires and pushes us to go further than we could ever go alone. sofi. get there sooner. ♪ i'm michael smerconish in philadelphia. we welcome our viewers in the united states and around the world. robert mueller's investigation seems to be getting closer to the white house gates. former national security adviser michael flynn pleads guilty to lying to the fbi about his communications with the russian ambassador and is cooperating with mueller. he seems to be implicating jared

kushner. so, where is this headed? and late last night, the big gop tax cut finally ekes through. but is it worth the trillion-dollar plus debt price tag? i will ask the father of supply side economics dr. robert laugher here. plus the undocumented immigrant deported five times found not guilty in the death of kate steinle. many outraged especially on the right. an activist waiting outside of the supreme court of united states for tuesday's historic argument about the case of the evangelical baker who said he has the right not to sell a wedding cake to a same-sex couple. first, with regard to michael flynn, i, too, want to read the tea leaves. we want to know where this is headed. but first the fact, the former

national security adviser pled guilty to lying to the fbi about the conversations with the russia ambassador and disclosed that he's cooperating with a special counsel's office. in a moment, i'll welcome someone who both prosecuted and defended individuals in similar circumstances. but let's start with what we know. we know that michael flynn pled guilty. we know that he did so pursuant to a written agreement. we know that he will cooperate and that he will get a sentencing break, so long as he fulfills his end of the bargain. and we know he pled guilty to the felony of falsehood which would make his credibility problematic in front of any jury that may evaluate his testimony. that's what we know. now, in the realm of my own legal analysis, here's some observations. it occurs to me that if they had something else on flynn, it would probably have charged him with it because this former three-star general is now an admitted liar. and from the standpoint of his use as a future witness, he'd be

better off having admitted to kidnapping than lying. a defense lawyer in the future will have a field day based on what flynn has zmritadmitted to. so for example, if the special counsel mueller had him on the logan act he probably would have charged with that. if mueller had proof that flynn would have conspired on meddling in the election. again brokering a deal with russia amuch better than lied as a future use as witness. joining me now john brownley. he served in the justice department for a decade. he runs the firm of holland & knight. and you'll recall he was governor bob mcdonald's lead counsel and a public servant recently that caused the supreme court to rewrite the law. counselor, if they had him on

moore, would they have brought it? >> not necessarily. i think that in trying to evaluate me negotiations for criminal defendants like general flynn, a lot of what you see with regard to what he pleads guilty to is balanced against the type of information that he can provide. so, none of us know what he's saying. none of us know what he's going to tell the special counsel. but i don't believe that the nature of his offense which i agree is fairly -- well, the type of sentence that he's going to get which is almost zero here is a great deal for him. but i'm not so sure you can interpret that as saying that he didn't commit other crimes or that necessarily that his cooperation is going to be not all that helpful. >> so, put your holland & knight hat on and not your hat as a former u.s. attorney you'd have a field day to someone who admitted to the felony of lying? >> no, i think that's right.

if you look at general flynn this is somebody who both president obama and attorney general yates had warned folks not to trust. this was an individual who was terminated on his job as national security adviser because he was untruthful to the vice president and now pleading guilty to lying to an fbi agent. so his credibility as a witness, his ability to be believed on other significant matters is significantly compromised by his own conduct. so the superb council, if he intends to use him to provide information on others he's going to have to corroborate that and find independent evidence that supports whatever he says about anyone else. so his value as a witness, quite frankly, is not all that great, despite the fact of the significance of the plea itself. >> okay. to your response of a moment ago, is it implied that he does have information on someone else?

>> i believe so, if you look at the plea agreement in and of itself it has a cooperation piece of it paragraph 7 and 8 of the plea agreement really speak to the cooperation. and i think it's implicit in the agreement that the special counsel believes he will provide what we call special assistance in the advancement or prosecution of another, and certainly he anticipates that kind of substantial assistance to the special counsel in order to get the very low sentence which he's been promised which is practically nothing and a very small fine. so, both sides have incentives here. but general flynn has every incentive now to provide as much information agency he possibly can. he may have already sat down for interviews. but, no, this plea agreement is built for a cooperator, and he has every imsensitive now to cooperate with the special counsel. now, that doesn't mean what he has is of all that value. we just don't know at this point because we have no idea what he's saying or the individuals

that he's talking about. >> you're a former united states attorney. harry litman is also a former united states attorney in "the new york times," he said that this all portends the likelihood of impeachable charges being brought against the president of the united states. do you agree with that? >> you know, i just think that professor litman has gotten a little ahead on this. i think what happened yesterday is significant for kind of three reasons. i think one this is the national security adviser for the president of the united states. it's one of the most significant jobs in government. and so, the president relies on his advice for the national security of our country and the fact that he committed a felony while national security adviser is significant. i also think it's significant because we're talking about it these cooperating. and i think it's significant of the message it sends. if you look at his day yesterday impaired to that of paul manafort, mr. manafort didn't

cooperate. he got multiple felonies. everything they could think of they dropped on his head. $11 million to get out of house arrest. compared to general flynn, he walked in, walked out and probably not going to send a moment in jail. the messaging is important. however there are two important caveats one as we talked, general flynn's credibility as a witness has been damaged, is damaged. and most would find him unbelievable unless it's corroborated. answ and then secondly, that the case in and of itself, it doesn't so any substantive charges. what you have as plea agreements for goppapadopoulos and general flynn is what we call process crimes. these are crimes to date and no evidence presented in any papers filed in open court to provide a substantive count of collusion,

conspiracy or anything like that. now, that may come but to date, there's simply no evidence of that. >> right. that goes for gates, for man manafo manafort, for papadopoulos, whose name i have problems pronouncing always, and flynn, thank you for being here. tweet me @smerconish or go to my facebook page. i'll read them throughout the course of the show. i believe he's building an air-tight case. will be interesting to see if trump tries to pardon him sometime soon says angela. but an air-tight case for what? to, my guess, big picture view at the end, so far, as he puts it process crimes that don't get to the underlying question that we all have pertaining to conspiracy, so differently collusion. that tax cut passed last night to increase the debt by $1

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departing the white house this morning for new york, president trump made his first comments since the senate passed its version of the tax bill and on the plea of michael flynn. >> so, it was a fantastic evening last night. we passioned the largest tax cuts in the history of our country and other things along with it. tremendous tax reform but it was the biggest package in terms of tax cuts ever passed in our country. now, we go on to conference. and something beautiful is going to come out of that mix there. people are going to be very, very happy. they're going to get tremendous -- tremendous tax cuts and tax relief. and that's what this country

needs. one other thing, business tax all the way down from 35 to 20. it could be 22 when it comes out it could also be 20. we're going to see what ultimately comes out but we now go into what i call the mixer. and the mixer is conference. and out of that, the house republicans and the senate republicans are going to pick something that will be truly spectacular. in addition, though, we have other things that we approved last night which really make it some package. so, these are the biggest tax cuts in the history of our country. >> mr. president -- [ inaudible ]. >> no, i'm not. what has been shown no collusion, no collusion. there's been absolutely no collusion. so we're very happy. and frankly, last night was one of the big nights.

we'll see what happens, thank you all very much. thank you very much. thank you. >> the gop tax bill that president trump was bragging about passed last night, despite the fact that the cbo says it adds $1.4 trillion in debt. now, republicans have always believed tax consults largely pay for themselves. they also preach fiscal responsibility. and with the nonpartisan joint committee on taxation calculated the amount of growth it would generate would curve only a third of its cost. the gop believes in the supply sigh of economics that was born 43 years ago this month literally on a dinner napkin when dr. arthur laffer was having dinner. and laffer drew a curve, heavy taxing and regulations can

stifle the economy. on one end that we now call the laffer curve, the golf taxes everyone at zero percent so the government get no, sir revenue. on the our end, the same thing would happen. no revenues because nobody has any incentive to earn or to spend. laffer concluded that lower taxes would spur the economy. his supply side economics became the cornerstone of president ronald reagan's economic pose resulting in one of the biggest tax cuts in history and tax revenues soared thereafter. his napkin now resides in the smithsonian. joining me now economist and former economist to ronald reagan dr. arthur laffer. your premise is you tax something, you get less of it. tax something less, you get more of it. but when you tax less, you don't necessarily create enough revenue to make up for the loss of revenue. is that accurate? >> that is accurate.

that's very accurate. sometimes, when you raise tax rates you collect more revenues. and sometimes, when you raise tax rates you collect less tax revenues. you call it the laffer curve, but it's good to see you, michael, again. >> so, the president just left the white house this morning in route to new york. and he proclaimed this the largest tax cut in history. but what about the cost? what about the fact the cbo and joint committee on taxation say this is going to be a stunner with regard to the national debt? >> they're wrong. they're just plain wrong. what they do look at is economic growth. and that's true. that's a huge improvement what the cbo used to do and what the joint committee on taxation used to do as well. but what they miss, michael, they miss the behavorial responses. companies are going to shelter less income. that has nothing to do with growth because it's not as profitable. businesses are going to locate their headquarters in the u.s.

instead of islands. there are tertiary and secondary of income taxes, payroll taxing, medicare, medicaid taxes, excise taxes, tariffs. all of those will come in. and then the biggest killer of all which shows them completely wrong is that state and local taxes are going to rise enormously even though there's no change in the tax rates at the state and local levels. it's just a huge, huge windfall for tax revenues, frankly, over a ten-year period. >> the president was similarly touting that the corporate tax rate will tumble from 25%, maybe it will go maybe he said this morning at 22%. the economy by many different measuring sticks is robust, maybe not with regard to wages. but you take a look at what's going on on wall street right now. my question, dr. laffer, is is this, why do those corporations at this moment in time need such a break? >> well, let me just say wall

street is in response to what is going to happen. stock prices don't tell us what has happened. they tell us what they think is going to happen. and there's a huge rise in stock prices because people expect a boom in the economy. and that will be to everyone's benefit. but when i look at these taxes i think it will spur economic growth. i think it will do a good job. it could be a lot better bill than it is but frankly, you'll get higher wages for those people currently employed. and the big one for me, michael, people that don't have jobs now will be able to get jobs and have jobs. we under reagan, i think we created almost 20 million jobs under the reagan bull market there because of the tax cuts primarily. >> i gave you credit during the read-into this conversation. >> i know you did, thank you. >> thank you, mr. laffer. let me finish this question, because you might not be thanking me. >> that's all right. >> i gave you credit for the fact that ronald reagan followed your advice and that revenues increased. but part two of that is that,

ultimately, he then did have to increase taxes. >> sure. >> critics would say that bill clinton for whom i know you voted i think twice. >> i did. >> -- that clinton, and the tax increases on his watch actually belie the laffer theory. respond to the criticisms? >> bill clinton was the biggest tax cutter of all. very close to reagan and kennedy to be honest. he cut government spending as a share of gdp by 3.5 percentage points more than the next peace-time presidents combined. bill clinton got rid of the test on social security. but had the biggest gains in history. he exempt ed capital gains. clinton did rise the two highest tax rates, that's true. but that's minor compared to the tax cuts he put in. and that's why i voted for him. i didn't vote for him because he

was a democrat or republican, i voted for him because he was a very good pro-growth president. >> a third criticism that you're accustomed to responding to, kansas. sam brownback did what the laffer curve recommends. it didn't play out so well in kansas, what went wrong? >> it was sam's, and it was a $90 million, $90 million on a budget of a little over 5 billion. it was a very small one. and when they finally changed it around, the senate changed it around and took off all of the offset that sam had. then they had all sorts of increases in spending. by the way, kansas didn't do badly with falling oil prices, falling agriculture prices kansas is pretty exposed to those events. if you want to know the real truth, michael, that i think is proof of what happened in kansas. in response to sam brownback's tax information kansas, missouri

cut its taxes because it was losing all of bit businesses in kansas city, missouri, to kansas city, kansas, flattery is the best form of emulation, i guess, isn't it? >> here's my own version of it let me say i hope you're right because we got a $20 trillion debt and we can ill-afford -- >> you're very right. >> good to see you. >> thank you for having me on. >> what are you saying via twitter and facebook. kathryn, what do you got? smerconish laffer's curve would work except for one fundamental flaw, human greed. greed artificially affects the curve. moving and bell further right when put into practice. something that i didn't get into with him that occurs to me the corporate tax rate is going to come down. i don't know where the individual rates end up but what

about the identificatindividual? i thought the theory of laffer curve was to spur growth which right now we're doing quite well. still ahead, an evangelical baker decided not to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple back in 2012. that case is coming to the supreme court. how will they rule? we're about to find out. paying less for my medicare? i'm open to that. lower premiums? extra benefits? it's open enrollment. time to open the laptop... ...and compare medicare health plans. why? because plans change, so can your health needs.

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find your awesome, and change the way you wifi. ♪ that case about the colorado bake here refused to make a wedding cake for a gay couple is finally reaching the supreme court this week. and act t activists began linin outside the court. back in 2012 charlie craig and charlie mull ince attempted to buy a wedding cake in colorado.

the evangelical christian other than jack phillips refused. state courts have upheld the commission's decision but the supreme court is looking at phillips' case because of free speech claims. he contends, the baker that he was not discriminating on the basis of sexual or yentzation but on the basis of a particular message. does he have a case? joining me a professor of philosophy at wayne state university. and author of a book account "debating." professor, it's the tale of two cakes, two bakeries. you've got masterpiece in colorado where the baker jack phillips refuses to sell a

wedding cake. and at the aazucar bakery. is there inconsistency there and how do you resolve it? >> i don't think there's inconsistency this is actually many cakes. there have been a number of cakes across the country about this issue. the important issue about the two cakes you mentioned one is a design-based refusal, one is a user-based refusal. if i can back up just a second. the government gives businesses wide latitude to decide what they're going to sale. we don't say that a vegan bakery has to sell a buttercream cake. or that a kosher bakery has to sell a cake topped with candy bacon or anything like that. by contrast, we don't allow businesses to decide to whom they sell. we say if you open a business to the public, it should be open to the entire public. and specifically, colorado prohibits discrimination on the

basis of race, ethnicity, religion sex, and also sexual or yentzation. jack phillips, the baker in this case, would not sell the same-sex couple the very same items he's willing to sell to couples. >> jack would say it's not about who they are, it's about what they wanted. i, for example, if i'm that baker, i don't open on sundays. i will not sell you, professor, a halloween cake because that does not comport with my religious view of the world. does that wash? >> i don't think it washes because a gay wedding cake isn't really a thing. gay people, we order our wedding cakes from the same catalogs that other people order their wedding cakes from. you pick your frosting, your filling, your cake flavor, how many tiers you want. and jack phillips did not discuss any elements of design with the couple. he said i will not sell you any

wedding cake. it's interesting masterpiece cake shop, his bakery also at one point refused a cupcake order from lesbians when they found out they were going to use it to celebrate their commitment ceremony. this is an instance where the user base collapsed into each other. not a specific design like a halloween cake that he's unwilling to sell. he's unwilling to sell to same-sex couples at all. >> what if they came in and said we want a cake with two grooms on top of it. he said, i will sell you the cake but not the two grooms on top of it. would that be a stronger case? >> that would be a much zraurng case. that the supreme court has this week. he would not discuss any cake at all. >> professor are we about to discuss policy that would apply not only to the baker but also the florist, to the khal cal

ligographer. maybe the band. will the supreme court be able to apply it to all of these circumstances? >> i suspect the supreme will not be able to have implications for all of those other cases. photography has traditionally been recognized as an arts form more than cake baking has. the wedding band when different artists perform onsite at different events that's different than the baker who sells them something and they take it away. and what they do afterwards is none of the baker's business. but i do think this case has important implications to whether religious freedom give people a license to discriminate. i think it's really important even though this is about cakes, anti-discrimination law is not primarily about cakes, flowers and other frills. it's about employment, housing, it's about basic goods and services. i think it's really important for the court to say when you open a business to the public you open it to the entire

public. you don't discriminate on the basis ever these characteristics. >> professor correspond vino, thank you for being here, once again, is it justice kennedy? >> i think justice kennedy is important in this case. but i also think that we -- you might look at some of the other justices. i think even justice roberts could rule with the state of colorado in this case, against the baker. because, again, if you look at the history of precedence on cases like this, freedom of speech, freedom of religion does not ever give businesses the right to discriminate on the basis of these protected characteristics. you know, get out of the law free card when it comes to anti-discrimination law. and i think it's really important for the court to establish that. >> amazing that they're already lining up on this saturday for this tuesday argument about the cake. obviously because it's about much more than the cake. thanks, professor, i appreciate you being here. >> thanks for having me on. how are we doing with twitter and facebook? kathryn, give me something. from facebook, nobody is going

to want to bake a cake for anyone anymore regardless of their beliefs just for the reason of being complicit by one group or noncomplicit by another. we're all considered enemies of each other. shannon, here's my view, you want to be a baker, bake the cake. maybe baking isn't for you. i see this in similar fashion as a person who works at cvs or rite aid who says i don't want to expense with contraception. as a jury found the undocumented immigrant innocent in the death of kate steinle, many especially conservatives have expressed outrage. was justice actually served? i'll ask mark o'mara. ...and compare medicare health plans. why? because plans change, so can your health needs. so, be open-minded. look at everything-like prescription drug plans...

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on the surface it sounds absolutely outrageous. a guy deported five times shoots a gun, is responsible for the death of an innocent william kate steinle. who just had been walking along a pier with her father in whose arms she then dies. and yet this week, a jury exonerated him. the president tweeted a disgraceful verdict. no wonder the people of our country are so angry with illegal immigration. conservatives chimed in. sarah palin, for example, the illegal alien who shot her was given her more rights and favor than the devastated steinle family. and ted cruz, i'm disappointed at the verdict. and san francisco's decision to protect criminal aliens led to the preventible and hard

breaking death of kate steinle. while it's ununderstandable people are upset is the criticism of the jury warranted. joining me now is criminal defense attorney mark o'mara who famously defended george zimmerman it's in travyvon martn case. mark, you can defend this outcome? >> no question. the demagogues who use this as political fodder. the system worked. and the system worked for this reason. 12 people looked at the case. the state attorney's office put on their best case to try to convince them of it. i'll tell you i think the prosecution overplayed their hand when they charged him with first degree murder. that was a horrible charge. but the reality is, the system workings and it should not be denigrated for people using it for political back and forth because my concern is more than now decades ago i think that the criminal justice system is under assault that we need to be more

careful about. the system worked very well. the jury listened to the case. they did what they were supposed to do. and we cannot forget we do not give illegal aliens, and i agree, that he should not have been in this country and had he not been in this country kathryn would be alive today. but the reality is we do not treat people differently once they walk inside the courtroom. it says in the front of every courtroom equal justice understand the law. that's what happened here. and we need to accept that the system worked. >> okay. might it be better if you said it this way, that the jury fulfilled its responsibility? in other words, they dealt with the case as it was presented to them and the prosecution had overcharged, because there was -- there was an intent requirement with first degree murder, rather than saying the system worked? because i'm unsettled with this. and i know you, you have to be unsettled with this as well. i think what you mean to say, you can't fault these jurors for

this outcome. am i wrong? >> no. and you're right, michael, you cannot. because this burden always stays on the prosecution. it is their responsibility to convince 12 people beyond a rnld dou reasonable doubt that they should get their conviction. rather than what they're supposed to do, decide the case based on the laws and facts i think we should look at the prosecution and say mr. prosecutor, where did you fail? because look, i'm very frustrated that this person gets to walk free and we have somebody who is now deceased because of his actions. will he be held civilly responsible? he has no money. but the reality is what happened in that criminal courtroom, those 12 jurors, i think, and i've looked into it, did their job, and we cannot fault them. >> and you also, i'm sure, with the zimmerman case on your mind don't like when the politicians are articulate their viewpoint it's. president obama weighed in on the zimmerman case in the same

way that president trump was just critical in the steinle case. what's the less you want them to know? >> well, michael, you and i talked about this, when president obama chimed in twice while the zimmerman case was on, i was frustrated. i said to you presidents don't get to say whether they like mcdonald's or burger king, whatever it might be. i think it's horribly improper and degrades the process for any politician, be it potus, the attorney general, or anybody else to come in and attack the system when it works. let me tell you something this was not a disgraceful verdict. so, the president is wrong. this verdict, agency best we know, was appropriate. and i'm very concerned that we attack and denigrate the criminal justice system which is the best in the world and does work very well. and seemingly worked in this case, when we denigrate it because we're worried or we want

it get some type of yardage on immigration policy. they are not to be conflated. leave our criminal justice system alone. >> mark o'mara, thank you so much for being here as always. >> thank you, michael. more social media tweets and facebook. one tweet, let's see what it is. this verdict represents exactly what san francisco residents believe. illegal aliens first. and americans lasts. pete, i get your criticism. i'm not happy with this either. i mean, i don't want anybody to watch this segment and think that i'm satisfied with the outcome in the steinle case. i'm not i'm as angry as anybody else. but i think mark o'mara makes a point when he says the criticism shouldn't be vented at those jurors. i have great respect for those who honor the jury service. they were dealt a bad hand in the way the prosecution teed this up. that's his observation. up next, james carville famously said the most important issue politically is, quote, the

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and bill clinton then wrote those words to victory. wrote the economy is stupid on the white house board in the war room. where today we have such a disconnect between president trump's disapproval ratings and a robust stock market and low unemployment, i wondered whether those words still apply.

so this week, if i my serious xm radio program and column. i called it will raging cajun and i asked whether his words from 1992 were still applicable. the short answer is not very much. told me the biggest change in american politics since '92 is particularization. >> the biggest change in american politics, i think, is negative partnership. my guess it probably matters a little less today. most things matter less today because everybody in each party hates the other party so much for them to stick together. >> i asked, will economic metrics and presidential approval numbers ever align again. >> previously, you know, every

president wanted to be above 50. he seems to be totally content with having 37-38 of the country in his corner and vast majority of republicans who don't even go through the motions to bring other people into his orbit. >> in other words, it's the particularization, stupid. still to come, best and worst tweets, and facebook comments like this one. >> but who is particularized? is it the average joe on the tweet, political elites or both. how i wish i had more time to respond to that. i don't think we're as particularized as they are. the media is particularized and elected representatives are particularized. where you've got 45% of the american people telling gallop they want to be regarded as independent, i think there are a lot of us that don't want to be associated with either end of the particular extremes. back in a moment. it's the best place to book a flight

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historic synagogue i'll deliver my divided we tastand speech. hope to see you there. this is some that came in during the course of this program. come on, mike, the lion charges are just the corn meal on the big fish about to be fried. tim's wife. my point in my opening commentary was this. if you had a choice of things that you could have gotten, if you're mueller and you had a choice of things you could have gotten flynn to plead guilty to, lying would be at the bottom of

your list. because you're harming his krebltd credibility in front of a jury as you go forward. examine a lawyer cross-examining it. isn't it true, you lied, you're now a felon as a result. you wouldn't devastate him for that will purpose if you had alternatives. that's what i was trying to say. another one, what do we got? yes, flynn's plea is a big deal, but are you wearing a spiderman tie. >> i don't know. i always liked spiderman. i'm wearing a paul stuart tie. thank you very much. next. what do we got. by the time you learn to pronounce papadopoulos, wrong wrong right. i did it again, right. katherine, did i say papadopoulos incorrectly. i did, didn't i. i just never put that in the

prompter. i can't handle the word. and i admit it. next. what do we have. papadopoulos. imagine being in a wedding and eating a cake that someone was forced to bake. ricky, are you implying that's like the chef who makes the soup that you best avoid? one more, if i'mve got time for it. >> the anger the people feel is understandable, the failure of the prosecution to present a winning case is where the anger should be directed. the law worked as it should have. >> brian mcdonald, my suspicion is my friend will catch a lot of heat at another network we can both name because he said in the steinle case that the system worked. and that's why i said to mark, i think what you wish to say is that the jury performed its roll. i think what most concerned him and i buy into this is the people were critical of those

jurors. the point was those jurors were only dealing with the hand that they were dealt. if you ever miss in of this program, catch us any time on cnn go on on demand. i'll see you next week. good morning, thank you so much for being with us. we appreciate your company. >> good saturday to you. president trump says no collusion. this time he was responding to the news of his former national security adviser is cooperating with special counsel robert mueller. that news overshadowing what should be a victory celebration for the white house this morning. and it is, according to the president. they're one step closer to major legislative win. after the senate passes version of a tax reform. this happened along mostly party lines. leaving the white house, last