see you later, goorlt, on the "ridicu-list." that's a for us. time to hand it over to andrew cuomo. andrew cuomo primetime starts now. >> i'm andrew cuomo. we have the perfect guest to talk about the big steve bannon news, anthony scaramucci is here. welcome to primeti"to primetime. >> thank you for joining us for this cnn special program. we're going to take the next few weeks at the start of the year to see where things stand on the important issues. and, boy, did we pick the right day to start. smu anthony scaramucci is here. we'll be one on one in a few minutes on a day where everything has changed. steve bannon out at breitbart, and with word of that, it was like a spell was broken. president trump called for comprehensive immigration reform and a bill of love for

d.r.e.a.m.ers. in other words, no bannon. so this news is going to send both sides into a tizzy, but forget about the spin. what matters is how we got here and how things may change. facts first. let's remember why trump cozied up to bannon in the first place. mid august, 2016, trump picks bannon to be his campaign chairman, why? because bannon hated the gop establishment that was going after trump, encourage trump to be his most bombast i can, which trump liked, and he had a feel for a group of americans that trump wanted to connect with now known as the base. so trump wins. that skinny margin reinforces how important the base was and he raises him to chief

strategist. you remember when bannon said darkness is good. dick cheney, darth vader, satan, that's power. is steve bannon the second most powerful man in the world? that was the beginning of the end. trump is not one to share the spotlight. by april president trump referred to bannon as simply a guy who works for me. in july our big guest tonight, anthony scaramucci was fired at white house communications director. bean tried to block him. he failed. if there was any question about anthony's thoughts on bannon, here's a taste. >> i'm not steve bannon. i'm not try to suck my own [ bleep ]. i'm not trying to build my own [ bleep ] strength of the president. >> by august bannon had become a cancer and was out at the white

house. last month he backed roy moore's alabama senate run. he lost there too. last week, the final straw, excerpts from a bombshell book were released, bannon slamming the president's son, throwing around the word treasonous, saying they're going to crack don junior like an egg on national tv. president trump renamed him sloppy steve. rebecca mercer cut off bannon's funding. today with the money gone, he is out at breitbart. it's bannon or me, trump said. make a choice. bannon messed with the bull, as they say, and he got the horns. joining us to discuss why this happened, what it means, anthony scaramucci, former white house communications director. thank you for joining us. >> can we start with facts first? >> i just did. >> let's go over the prompters.

i don't think he hired him because of what you said related to the base and expounding himself. he hired him looking for a slight shift in direction in the strategy. he met with the mercer family and he hired him because he was also getting kellyanne conway who was very fond of and thought she did a wonderful job on tv and the first woman campaign manager to win a republican party presidency, probably the first women campaign manager to do that, period. those are a little bit different than what you said. the second piece i would slightly disagree with is that the president had his own voice with what you're describing as the base. the president was already in touch with that base. that base already helped him win against 17 other candidates in the republican primary. one of the issues there is some of the self-importance that was involved. i didn't describe it appropriately but i witnessed it. it was detaching himself from

the president and his message. just a clarification. >> it's more a distinction without a difference. >> it's important. your viewers want to understand thousand president operates and thinks. >> right. >> he did want some level. >> why did he bring in someone like steve bannon. >> he was rewarding him and people like reince priebus, that offered some level of reward. he was throwing an olive branch to steve. >> but that changed, right. you get side ways with the president, you get the worst. let's not led get it ahead himself. the president says he always hires the best people. how do you explain him having steve bannon there? >> i would say that steve had a voice. steve was a good writer. the biggest problem steve had in

my opinion, he was more focused on steve. i think that's where he diverged from the president. he's not a team player. you can't say steve's not a smart guy or a good writer. you can't say that after andrew breitbart's death he didn't help raise the profile of breitbart, certainly had a high profile in the last election. i want to be fair to him. but i also want to be accurate because one of the things that i did a reasonably good job starting two companies from scratch, selling them both, is evaluating talent. one thing you can't have -- -- >> i don't think steve bannon was a good hire? >> i don't. i obviously said as much. i think he was a bad hire not because wasn't talented or smart or strategically, he just did not want to play inside the sand box with the other people. he was splitting people between nationalism and globalism and to really understand the president, there's a nuance to him there as well. he is a globalist by nature.

he wants to be part of the world order. >> that's not what bannon wanted, though. >> not what bannon wanted, but he's for peace and global prosperity. he wants to get along with our allies and he wants to put a hurt on our adversaries. >> can you understand the confusion? >> i can't speak for the president. but i think what the president was trying to do was there was a sleeve of the president's agenda which is an america first agenda. it's for the middle class families, for what the president called the forgotten man or woman. wages rising. there's a sleeve of the president's personality for that but there's also a sleeve of the president's personality that someone like general kelly and general mcmaster. >> to your own theory trump already figured italy out in the primary, i disagree with that. even if it were true, imagine if

there had been no steve bannon. where would the president be today? >> you disagree with that because why? >> i think bannon's cell to the president that i understand these people, they come to me through breitbart,izer been working with them and selling things to them, message wise i need me. he was vulnerable, unsure of his team around him. bannon gave him a confidence. brought him in, he won, he brought him closer? >> i was there. i don't think the president saw it that way. that could be your analysis. but the way i saw it he was looking to freshen up the team and make a transition into going into the last part of the election. after he met with the mercer family, he brought them in to bolster the team. >> i get that. but you don't just pick somebody like steve bannon and couple him

with kellyanne conway. one is a minted professional, the other one is a propagandaist and sells a lot of negative. what did you think was going to happen? >> you don't have to convince me about the differences and the professional qualities that kellyanne conway has versus steve. >> for very different reasons. it's norton people know how we got here. now they do. thank you for that. how do you feel about bannon being out at breitbart? >> you know, i don't feel good or bad about it, but i sort of predicted it. >> you don't feel any sense of satisfaction? >> i feel -- i feel a sense of relief for the president that he can now put this distraction besides him. he doesn't have to deal with it anymore, and he can focus on what he knows his gut extinction

are. the american people want a symphony coming out of the president, they want him to be the conductor. push forward on the daca agenda, health care reform package, push forward on a restructuring of the global order that eliminates terrorism and all of these other things. to me, when you're in business -- i've been in politics officially for a short period of time but remember, i was with the president for 18 months and i was on his executive transition team. pretty good idea what's going on. >> but the point is this, we see what the president does on a minute by minute basis. certainly he's not in kumbaya mode. may that change mode? maybe. but i got to tell you, i'm not buying this. >> i take issue with that too. >> hold on. take issue with less things for a moment. you have somebody who only talked about immigration in terms of keeping people out,

very anti-immigrant. then all of a sudden today he has this meeting. he says i'll sign whatever you can pass. i want a bill of love for the d.r.e.a.m.ers. we need to work together. the wall could mean lots of different things after he insisted that that was not what he meant. >> you should like that, though. >> whether it is the right one or not, principles matter. he distinguished himself from the field by saying what i say wall, i mean a big, new wall of china across the southern board. he got points for that and he's backing off it. might be the right move but he's got to own it. >> let's talk as americans, not as partisans. the silent majority in the united states stand for an end of the political divisiveness in washington. the silent majority stands for let's knit together a proposal. reagan once said i'll going for 80%. the way the system is designed i'm not going to get 100%. one of the issues i had with steve, he was going for 115%.

it was his way or the highway. >> he started a culture war. the president smiled on him and he wound up getting separated. >> the president has great instincts. >> how do you bring steve bannon as close to him as he did? >> like i said, he was rewarding him for the electoral victory. i have to say this to you. you don't want to give the president credit for a lot of things. >> why would i give the president credit for bringing in steve bannon in close to the seat of power? you tell me, anthony scaramucci, who is no friend of steve bannon, why was he a good choice to have? >> we're looking at this with hindsight and saying it was a bad choice and the president would say it's a bad choice. but here's the hall mark of a great president and executive. when you've made a bad choice

and you have to make a decision to get rid of the bad choice, you remove the person. you want to say seven months was forever in the administration. you said that to me a couple mornings ago. i don't see it that way. there were a couple bad actors inned the administration that were leaking on the president. they were serving themselves. there are other people -- >> proof that he doesn't have the best people around him. >> i don't agree with that. >> how can you have it both ways, though? if he has the best people, why does he keep shedding people like fleas off a dog. >> have you ever had a company? >> no. >> it's an organization. >> this isn't a company. >> you won't let me make my point. i've been the ceo of two spatter companies. >> what did you learn when you went to washington, d.c.? a lot, right? >> i learned there are treacherous people. >> different set of rules.

>> they're different. people on wall street are more in your face. you may not like what they're saying to you, but they'll tell you exactly how they feel. >> the points is there are different sets of rules. we're making the same point. >> the american people see the people in washington for what they are and that's why the president became the president. >> that's why the challenge of leadership is to make it better. and with bannon around he was on a different course. we'll see what happens now. >> he's making it better. you guys don't like -- >> that's not fair. don't be unfair. >> i'm not going to be unfair. >> why would we not like unity? >> you want to go back to rhetoric that was campaign oriented, rhetoric that could have been driven by steve bannon and you don't want to go to the practically reality of being president and seeing a guy today for 45 minutes in an actual

bipartisan discourse looking to get a deal done. and when he talks about love, whether you like it or not, he's -- >> why do you keep saying that? >> it's a compassionate guy. >> there's no we. there's only me. you're talking to me. when he says those things, why criticize him for saying ugly things. >> when he says he wants to bill of love, are you going to praise him for that? >> i will. i think if he does something that helps the d.r.e.a.m.ers, because supposedly there's consensus these are not the people to villainize, even if you want to go on a campaign of getting people out of this country, this is not where to start. so if he is to construct some type of compromise -- b >> so take him at his word. >> he was so different today. there's a fundamental distinction you are ignoring. let me set the table for you.

he was saying totally different things, bannon is out, and now what whether coincidence or not, he's saying different things. >> he had the democratic leadership cut a deal on the budget to raise the ceiling. >> this is different. >> it is different and it should be refreshing. the fact he's going to davos should be -- >> hang on a second. there's a difference between a position and a principle, okay? the wall was a principle. i want people out. we are not a nation because we don't have borders which, of course, was also untrue. it was always untrue we didn't have a border and it was untrue that the wall was a silver bullet. in fact, there's decent reporting to suggest that bannon and then-candidate trump knew that but they knew it was a salable item to a base that is still waiting for that wall. however -- >> we see it differently. >> but now he walks in to make a

deal and that changes. something he said wisdom irrelevant revokable and unchangeable. when they can see metaphor for wall, some sensors, some fence, whatever the border experts say we need, not me. i'm different than them. and people believed him. now you're saying he wants to make a deal. no. principle stays. positions can change. so if he has new religion -- >> give me a chance to rebuttal. >> you are a lot of things, quiet is not one of them. >> neither are you. >> that's my job. today he says the wall, we'll see what it means. you bring me something, i'll sign it, very different. that's good because he's trying to make a deal. >> you know, it was brought up in a book that people in our society have different roelts. we both saw the same thing. i saw something totally different than what you saw.

i saw a guy that, principle, we're going to build a wall to protect our society. >> we don't know what that means anymore. >> let me finish. friedman said if you're going to have a welfare state, you need a stronger border otherwise there's a economic insensitive to cross the border into your welfare state. united states has a welfare position in the society, providing a safety net and i believe we should have that, paul ryan believes that and so does the president. but you have to protect the people living in the united states legally so you can protect the tax system and the services and the benefits. one of the things the president believes and he said and referenced it today that border officials, dhs people believe, there has to be a wall in certain areas. >> he's new to this. that's always been the position of border experts. that'll all i'm saying. he's been saying something for a

long time. >> when john kennedy was telling people in 1960 there was a missile gap and he campaigned hard on a missile gap. and ike was upset with him over it. and when he got to the office and he saw the missiles and he realized we were in a missile surplus -- >> he was wrong. is that something to be rewarded? >> no you're misrepresentation t -- missing the point. if you have less information than you do as a president, smart people, people that are geniuses, smart people, they change their position and they alter themselves. and so every politician has to do that. >> that is wrong. >> hold on a second. president obama -- i'm with him on this. i'm pro-gay marriage, as you know. i'm for all of the social progressive things. >> that's not about facts. >> he was against gay marriage. >> he changed his mind, he said he grew in his perspective. that's not about how many missiles you have or whether or not a wall is what's needed by

experts. >> you don't want to give the president any credit. >> it's not true. >> the president has new information. >> it's not a good analogy. >> your viewers are listening. that's a good analogy. >> it's a pretty good conversation and i appreciate you for it. do you think daca deserves a clean bill? get it done and move on to these other things? >> good question. my initial knee jerk reaction is, yes. >> is that sharing the president's thoughts or your own? >> i haven't talked to the president about it. but i know how washington works. they're going to nail him with other stuff because that's how they work. >> but they is the people in this one. they is his people. >> if we're having the spirit of honest here, we know the way the system works is failing the

american people. i would indict both sides for that. you're not going to get a clean bill because of the way the rules work. but the good news about president trump, and this is the hope for the american people, he finally got somebody in there that's going to disrupt the rules. >> if it's going to be -- >> as opposed to these nonsensical politicians. that you have to give the president for. >> let's see what he does. if it's a bill of love, as he promised today, the latest promise, it should be by dafg a dafgs -- definition. >> if you lose the word love too much you get criticized. >> i said it in my press conference that i love the guy. don't use the word love. >> i'm using it in a different way. the national anthem, the president says you should stand for it and honor it. let me play you a piece of tape.

♪ >> trying to confuse you as much as possible. >> the president's at the big alabama/georgia game. the national anthem is before it. do you think that the president of the united states knows all the words to the national anthem. >> 1000%. i tried to show it looked like he didn't know the words. >> here's my real question. you say he knows the words. >> i know a lot of the maroon 5 songs, i don't know all of them. >> i don't know why you want to admit that. >> if you asked know sing every word at the national anthem, probably going to get a few of them wrong. >> come on. >> but i would like to see you

sing it here right now. >> maybe at a high school basketball game. >> if you sing right now, i'll mouth it along side. >> and then you'll be ready to be president. should the president sing the national anthem if he wants it to be respected as profoundly as he says? >> it is an question i feel comfortable answering because you want me to get inside the mind of the president. >> i'm saying in general, the president of the united states if the anthem matters so much, should he sing it. >> i have an unconditional love for the country, and i would suggest to everyone that has a social justice issue with the country have an unconditional love for the country, walk walter reed hospital, stand for the anthem, let's address these social justice issues or whatever the grievances may be in another form. don't hit the flag. that's my personal opinion. >> here's the beautiful thing, anthony scaramucci, you are entitled -- i've seen people with no legs stand for the flag, and that's good for me.

and i will stand along side them all day and night. and i tell my friends that have a peace and social justice issue with the united states, let's drop it with the flag. this has been a phenomenal experiment in 240 years we're progressing. >> i take your opinion. the beautiful thing is you can have your opinion and other people can have a different opinion and they shouldn't be attacked either. >> but my opinion is right, chris, and yours is wrong. >> anthony scaramucci, thank you for being with us. >> glucose with the new show. >> thank you very much. i bet you have a lot to say about that interview. you want to know what the good news is? the show is more interactive than most. i may respond during the show and we're going to read some of your pearls of windows at the end. up next, from build the wall to where's the love? we now know where the two sides stand on daca and hundreds of

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800,000 d.r.e.a.m.ers was ope y debated. top of the list is what president trump said. he borrowed ideas from both jeb and president bush, ideas he used to attack. he asked for comprehensive immigration reform. that was president bush's term, and said the d.r.e.a.m.ers need a bill of love. >> should be a bipartisan bill. should be a bill of love. if we do this properly, daca, you're not so far away from comprehensive immigration reform. and if you want to take it that further step, i'll take the heat. i don't care. we'll do daca and we can start comprehensive immigration reform the following afternoon, okay? we'll take an hour off and we'll start. >> so he was talking the talk, but was he ready to walk the walk? the bill of love was a play on what jeb bush said in a debate where trump attacked him.

jeb bush said these families who bring their kids with them, that's an act of love, it's not a crime. then-candidate trump mocked him, now changed his tune. so really it's about the wall, though. you remember what this promise was, as solid as the wall he was promising itself, uncompromised, not a metaphor for anything. take a listen. >> we are going to build a great border wall. >> we will build a great, great wall. >> we're going to build a wall. don't worry about it. [ cheers ] >> i promise, we will build the wall. >> it's not going to be a little wall. it's going to be a big, beautiful wall. >> it's going to be a very tall, strong, powerful wall. >> who's going to pay for the wall? >> mexico. >> we haven't heard anything about that for months. but the wall itself is now a great big beautiful question mark. it was discussed today in terms

of being exactly what everyone has said it should be, a metaphor for different types of security, big, beautiful wall in some places, nensz others, electronic sensors were needed, what the experts, border security that's what they said they wanted all along. trump had said number now he said he was good with whatever they come up with and even gave the democrats what they say is paramount, a stand-alone daca deal. for a moment anyway. >> what about a clean daca bill now with the commitment that we go into a comprehensive immigration reform procedure like we did back when kennedy was here. it was really a major, major effort. and it was a great disappointment that it went nowhere. >> i have no -- i think that's basically what dick is saying. we're going to come out with daca. and then we can start immediately on the phase two, which would be comprehensive.

>> but then came the political reality. remember, there's been all this talk about how both sides want to save the d.r.e.a.m.ers. the gop was there to do business and deliver for people whose priority is to keep people out. >> you need to be clear. i think what senator feinstein is asking here, when we talk about just daca, we don't want to be back here two years later. you have to have security as the secretary of will tell you. >> all right. so no clean daca bill, that's what you are hearing from the republicans. democrats, republicans, still clearly at odds. mr. trump had one surprising suggestion near the end to make it easier to pass bipartisan legislation, the return, oink, oink, of pork. >> maybe all of you should start thinking about going back to a form of ear marks because this system -- this system -- no. well, you should do it. i see lindsey nodding happily.

>> they're all laughing about spending your money to get things done they should do otherwise. but now we have what's teed up as a great debate. let's bring in former michigan governor jennifer gran home and senator from pennsylvania, rick santorum, republican. great to have you both with us. thank you for joining us on this first night. here's the proposition. if you care about the d.r.e.a.m.ers, do daca in a clean bill. defend against. >> well, first defend against that, first i don't support doing daca, period. so the concern that republicans have with doing daca is that in a few years we'll wind up doing another daca and another daca. if we don't have some sort of enforcement at the boarder, laws in place to make sure we're nato

going to have this immigration problem again, then there's no point in creating any kind of amnesty or relief for people who are here now. that's what republicans have been saying. that's what donald trump has been saying for quite some time. so the idea of doing a clean daca bill is an absolute nonstarter. i don't think a single republican, because we're creating another problem. >> jennifer gran home but the republicans say they care. how do you love the d.r.e.a.m.ers if you don't help them in a clean bill? >> yeah, and how do you love the d.r.e.a.m.ers when you were the one to undo the deal in the first place, yes. so you should give this as part of the only bill that is teed up at the moment to be able to arrive in time to prevent the daca young people from being exposed. march 15th is the deadline. there's no other bill that is teed up to be able to approved in time to save them. so do it. do it as part of this spending

bill, part of the government funding bill, and then do what the president said, go right into comprehensive reform. let's talk about comprehensive immigration reform and put on the table what the gang of eight did back in 2013. >> rick, what's your response? >> let's talk about what the president suggested. the three things he suggested in a reform bill that he would sign is, number one, ending the visa lottery. that was in the gang of eight proposal which was a bipartisan proposal. >> it was. >> democrats support tending visa lottery. that's an easy one. he says get rid of chain migration and a lot of democrats are sympathetic to the idea that your uncles and the fact that the vast majority of people coming in to this country -- >> that was in the gang of eight bill too. >> again, two of the three things. when you say it's teed up, those two things the president wants that republicans sort and some

democrats do too are teed up also. the one thing that is, quote, controversial, is the wall. but as you heard from the president, he's flexible that the wall can be, yes, some wall and some other things in addition to the wall. border format is essential to this proposal. >> i get the interest in enforcement. i don't know who isn't against a safe border to be honest with you. >> we haven't been spending the money on it. >> there's a lot of money spent on the border and they want to spend more, that's more. they have to justify it to the voters. but you heard the president, he's flexible now. do we know that? >> i can't tell you. >> jennifer said the president is not as dogmatic as i would be if i were president of the united states. hooe he's not driven by ideology. he wants results.

it's very important. the three things the president asked for are the thee easiest things to get accomplished. >> the wall isn't easy. >> sure it is. >> he asked for daca, rick. he asked for daca. >> right. put all four of those things together. >> and he's also said comprehensive immigration reform. in today's meeting, honestly, within a span of 60 seconds he was going one way and the other. it's not clear at all, as chris is saying, where he really stands. he'll probably know once he watches fox and friends tomorrow morning where he really stands. ann coulter is on tv tonight trashing him. int i am thoroughly encouraged he was strong today. unlike people like you who are in favor for a solution for the d.r.e.a.m.ers, and i hope the democrats keep their spine and say very clear that we are going

to stick by our guns and demand that the daca fix be in the spending bill. >> you will only get a daca fix if you have enforcement and not just at the border but better enforcement. >> you can do that. >> we're not going to be in a situation as we were in the 1986 bill, the 1993 bill, whatever it was, amnesty was given to everybody and there was no additional enforcement and result we have more and more people coming into this country legally. >> i know you throw this amnesty word out there because it's so scintillating for people on the far right. >> if you break the law and come into this country and continue to break the law -- >> they didn't come in by themselves. >> i understand that. >> let's be clear about this. >> if they break the law by being here, if you allow them to stay, that's amnesty. >> the reason why many others in your party are in favor of doing something is because this is a

huge issue for you, for republicans. if they really want to grow, if y'all want to grow, you better be inviting of people to come to the table. you better be living up to the ideals of america, which is a nation of immigrants other than the native americans. it fix the daca problem and then do a comprehensive immigration reform that has a path to citizenship. >> the plans he laid out are acceptable. he put something out there that should be very acceptable to democrats. >> let's reframe it for people at home. by the way, bravo, this is a good debate. happy to have you guys on. the idea of you need to do the enforcement things otherwise you're going to have this perpetual problem, why can't you deal with the fact that these people who technically did enter

legally but they came in as children, that's what jeb bush called the acts of love, now the president mirroring it, it seems, in bill of love. so you take care of them. they're productive, representing the best of our values, and you shut that off you and then put in the enforcement piece at the same time you help them. why do you need to mix in a border wall and all these other provisions that have nothing to do with these circumstances with hundreds of thousands of lives? >> that's a great question, chris. if you say to young people all over the world, if you can get in here, then we're going to allow you to stay here at some point and we're not going to have any kind of measures to make sure you don't come. that's why it's important to have enforcement in place. so we send the message that, yes, those folks who are here, we're going to give you a special circumstance and allow you to stay here, but we're going to pull the measures in place to make sure that we're

not going to encourage more people to come because we're giving this benefit to those who are here already. >> i don't see the logic of having to do both at the same time. i'm out of time. >> great to be on, chris. >> jennifer, you are always disappointed at the end which means there's always room for more. thank you so much for being here on the first night. thank you. we have new big names entering the political fray, and they could not be more different. on one side, you've got oprah winfrey. on the other side you have sheriff joe arpaio. chris sliza say these represents nightmares for the parties. but he and i have opposite views on the winners and losers. who has the better point? he's got the better tie, next. and you don't have time for a cracked windshield.

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times he loves oprah. that is until she became even the most remote of threats. and now she gets the sarah sanders treatment. >> look, i disagree very much on her policies. is he a successful individual, absolutely. but in terms of where he she stands on a number of positions, i would find a lot of problems with that. >> what positions? i'll leave the details to the side. let's get to the point with cnn politics editor at large, chris cillizza. mr. cillizza, in your opinion, oprah winfrey is hot and getting

hotter. >> yes. >> i read that in a headline. but now you have joe arpaio. what does each mean to the political fray? >> i'll be brief. oprah winfrey, i think, is democrats maria tonic ideal of what you challenge donald trump with. they went traditional politician, hillary clinton didn't work. republicans ran a bunch of traditional politicians, didn't work. oprah winfrey is successful, wealthy, well-known, a celebrity, and in their view certainly more rational, more presidential than donald trump. arpaio represents the id of the republican party, suspicious, conspiracy theories. joe arpaio still thinks barack obama was not born in the united states. so they both represent -- both are in the reactional orbit to

donald trump. arpaio is trump on steroids. oprah is the democratic alternative if you believe that donald trump fundamentally altered applications in 2016 and running a house member won't work in 2020. >> smart, assertive, you can take that to twitter. i will flip it, though. >> okay. >> in fact, oprah winfrey could be the the biggest nightmare for democrats. >> why? >> because she checks a lot of the boxes that hillary clinton did as well. super elite, rarefied air, no experience in this domain, which has a political cost right now. and big shot versus big shot, celebrity versus celebrity, maybe too obvious for the democrats. they want someone more home grown, or organic that represents experience. arpaio conversely is exactly

what put donald trump in the white house. people believe that atlas cultural war and the left is trying to break people away from what is skpriegt what needs to remain true and he will put down real strength on the ground against those we fear here and for you. >> let me rebut quickly on both. arpaio, there is a constituency for arpaio in arizona without question. it is not big enough to win him a republican primary. >> even in arizona? >> arizona's republican party, you think jeff flake and john mccain. the state legislature passed some of the most boundary pushing stuff you've seen. i don't think that is a governing coalition even in a republican primary. oprah, i think you are right. i think you see the democratic party, the theory of the case against trump is either you run

someone who is a celebrity who has no record, or you run the most down the line bureaucrat. >> the people and families in the democratic party have been sweating off over the years. >> is that biden? is that elizabeth warren? >> that i don't know. that wasn't part of this discussion. >> i don't know that either, but i do think that oprah represents sort of a fundamental challenge to what is the kind of candidate that democrats should run against donald trump, even if it's not oprah, is it mark cuban, howard schultz, bernie sanders, a more traditional candidate and you'll see both in the primary in 2020. is it 2020 yet? my watch doesn't tell me that. >> your watch is blinding me. >> blinding you with science.

>> fashion, you win the point. >> is there anything i can? >> tomorrow night, joe arpaio is going to join us live. what does he think about what chris cillizza said? i'll give him his phone number. i host, you tweet. andrew cuomo, that's the sign on twitter. the hashtag is the hashtag cuomo prime time. social status is up next. we'll get your take. back pain i couldn't sleep and get up in time. then i found aleve pm. aleve pm is the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. i'm back. aleve pm for a better am.

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all right, so how's our social status doing tonight? darin kelly music tweets, congrats on a strong start, civil disagreement and a healthy debate. avoid guests who make speeches. kudos, i'll take it. orlando sgn says why would you spend so much time with scaramucci who like all of trump surrogates doesn't answer any question? >> here's why. he speaks the president on a regular basis. he's in the white house. he understands why he makes the decisions he makes as well as

any. and when it comes to bannon, nobody got into it with bannon the way the moush did. that's why we have him on. good observation. thank you. we work hard at that. the hostility and theat calically i know that it drives the tribalism that is infecting us so much right now on cable tv. we see so much of it at night. it doesn't get us anywhere. you can disagree. you don't have to be disagreeable. lert, new details tonight about the infamous dossier alleging ties between president trump and russia. just hours ago more than 300 pages of closed door testimony were released. i read every single page. truth, what's in it, what it

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this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. big news on the russia investigation to tell you about. president trump's personal attorney filing a lawsuit against buzzfeed for publishing the infamous trump dossier that included salacious details. that as senator if i knowstein releases testimony of the man's firm who paid for the dossier when simpson testified that the former british spy who wrote the dossier went to the fbi because he believed, quote, there was a crime in progress. the president and republicans have spent months painting the dossier as a partisan political attack. but today these revelations are taking the wind right out of their sails. we'll discuss all of that now. joining me