tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN February 22, 2018 6:00pm-7:00pm PST
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surprising. what's not surprising? how much money heather saved by switching to geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. theseare heading back home.y oil thanks to dawn, rescue workers only trust dawn, because it's tough on grease yet gentle. i am home, i am home, i am home a deputy, resource officer forced out for doing nothing when the shots rang out. also on the table is arming teachers and paying them bonuses to pack guns. also new charges against paul manafort and his former top aide. why president trump said he's thinking about pulling every immigration customs enforcement agent out of california. we begin with the parkland story
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that left broward county sheriff at a loss for words. the fact a school resource officer stayed outside the building when the shooting began. >> reporter: this school resource officer is a sheriff's deputy. he's in uniform and carries a gun. this particular deputy, scott peterson had been on this campus since 2009. he was on the campus at the time of the shooting. the question had been where was he during the time of the murders that were taking place. today, broward county sheriff scott israel said a review had determined something very disturbing. the fact that the officer was right outside the building where the shooting was taking place. he was aware of something awful going on on the and he did not go in. in fact, a review finds he was outside the building for up to four minutes. remember the entire attack took just six minutes.
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the sheriff himself was sickened by what he saw. here's what he said earlier today. >> devastated, sick to my stomach. there are no words. these families lost their children. we lost coaches. i've been to the homes. i've been to the vigils. it's just there are no words. >> reporter: remember, ever since columbine, that was 19 years ago, the protocol for law enforcement any armed officer, any officer that first arrives or is there on scene must interact with an active shooter. if only to distract, hopefully to engage. the sheriff said he should have engaged, should have killed that shooter. instead, the officer did nothing. he was put on what was supposed to be suspension.
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the officer said he resigned and immediately went into retirement. >> stunning report. appreciate that. a lot more tonight. i wonder what you make of this. the man tasked with protecting the school couldn't or wouldn't. >> anderson, it's another gut punch. you and i were at the scene in parkland, florida. talking to the parents and student survivors. this is another piece of a failure in the system. we have to wait till all the facts get in. i know the initial reports on this are beyond troubling and unsett unsettling. i served in combat theaters.
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brai ri is not the absence of fear. it's the mastery of it. not everybody is built for this line of work. there's a reason why it's a profession. it's not a job. for somebody to be on o outside and hear children screaming, it's unsettling. listen, there is no panacea here. if there had been two officers or three officers. if we had armed school teachers. we need to look at it not alone nan and in a vacuum. >> a lot of big city police forces, i know washington, d.c. train for active shooter drills. every police officer is trained on how to respond, go in, hunt down the shooter, engage them. stop them you don't wait for the swat team. i suppose nobody knows how they will react unless they are
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actually encountering a situation like this. people who think they will be heroes turn out to be cowards and people who think they will be cowards turn out to be heroes. what did this say about the argument the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good person with a gun? >> every situation is different. i don't buy into that. certainly police officers are trained to respond immediately if there's a school shooting. if you pull up to a school and hear shots fired, you go in and con front the gunman. you neutralize as best as you can to avoid further people from dying. i've heard the conversation about arming teachers. i don't think that's the right move. teachers are there to teach. it's more than just learning how to handle a firearm. you need to understand the law. when can you use deadly force
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against an individual. what commonly occurs in schools is not your school shootings but simple assaults that take place. teachers-student, maybe an outsider, trespasser comes into the school. now you have an armed teacher that gets shoved by a 15-year-old kid unarmed. they can't respond with deadly force. this has to be carefully thought through. it's unfortunate this sro did not respond the way you would like him to respond but that doesn't mean you don't need to have school resource officers. >> the few times i've been witness to a gunfight or involved where people are shooting around me, you have no idea how you'll respond. adrenaline kicks to such degree that you don't often think straight. this officer, i don't know if he didn't think straight or he made a wrong decision or was afraid or whatever was going through his mind. to the idea that teachers with
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some training could be trained to react in the correct way. does what happened to this officer, does that raise questions about training teachers for this? >> it's a good point. obviously there are two sides of this debate. there are instances if you look in the past of good people being in the right place at the right time with a firearm to diffuse the situation. that's one side of the arlgt. the other side and it's really important for folks to understand if we arm our teachers, what is the level of training that they'll receive. in fbi, we fire thousands of rounds. sometimes until our hands literally bled. the goal was to achieve maximum proficiency, achieve muscle memory. in a real tactical situation it will kick in and will degrade the level of accuracy. my fear is if we arm teachers without being highly trained, sending bullets down range without that precision, i think
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it only compounds the situation and makes it even more dangerous. >> you got to look at it from this perspective. when they are training on range, to your point the rounds aren't coming back at them. the average proficiency, maybe good shot in the 90 or 95 perce percentile. when people have rounds coming back at them. it drops down to 18%. that's one out of the of every five rounds may strike the target. the arming school teteacher sch is a fools errand. i think there's other more sensible solutions. there's a number of retired law enforcement officers that work in schools and teachers.
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i'm a prime example. i teach at st. johns. schools are gun free zones. you have law enforcement officers retired that have concealed carry permit but restricted from carrying on campus. if i had been there, i would have been unarmed as well. these are all things we need to think about. none of these things can be solved with one specific thing. we have to look at this whole thing together and come to some sensible solutions. you receive firearm training. how do you see this? >> i think that james and josh made some great points. the training is key. we went through four months of daily, thousands of rounds of training to get that muscle memory. swat teams get even more than that. they are there to not only get
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the firearms training but to master that fear as james said. this idea that you're going to give guns to teachers, even if they're adept at a firing range and have them be accurate especially when they're out gunned. if somebody comes in with an assault rifle that's firing more rounds per second and do damage when they're not accurate, i think it's really asking for just even more tragedy. >> is arming teachers a good idea? >> you have law enforcement that said on monday they'll have officers with rifles at these campuses. there's the belief that it does have an impact. maybe it's a deterrent for somebody thinking of doing negative reaction. i don't know if it's teachers but what the president is saying if you're looking at school, let's look at teachers and all available assets that exist.
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there are roles the community can play but it's shotgun we need to look at. it's a policy discussion. it has to be something. >> there was an armed guard at marjory stoneman dougldouglas. there was an armed guard at columbine. virginia tech has police force of 50 full-time agents and 12 private security guards on top of that. it was a mass killing at ford hood where there's 42,000 soldiers, most of them unarmed but they have the 89th police brigade. a thousands soldiers, armed, trained, patrolling. i understand it. we need to learn from our milita military. when we were losing soldiers to ieds, we responded to mitigate the damage. these high armored humvees. the pentagon said it's not
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enough. the phrase was move left of the boom. let's get them before they place them. let's evolve before the terrorists are killing our guys. that's what we need to do. hardening our school, i understand that. i think the sros do a great job. i think arming english teachers is nuts. if we think hard about how to intervene in somebody's life before he become a threat. how to keep the guns out of hands of troubled dangerous people. i think that's going to be a more productive conversation. >> i would just say that i think sometimes we're talking about this issue because the fact is we have a gun violence problem in our country that is obviously keep surfacing with each one of these circumstances. what we've seen from other countries, which i think we can very much learn from in how they handled it is when australia,
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united kingd united kingdom had mass shootings, they took steps legislatively and through government action to reduce the number of guns out there. when we're talking about hardening schools, i think it's very telling that the people on one side of the debate are the nra who think we should arm teachers and donald trump who got $21 million from the nra in the last election and the other side are teachers, administrators and law enforcement. that tells you about whether that's the right approach. >> i think paul's point is correct on getting to the left of boom. this is not a generalized gun violence problem. we have many more guns in our society than we did in the 1990s. gun crime has dpoen dogone down.
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i think the best idea that i've seen is enhanced gun violence restraini inin ining orders whe members or people close to disturbed people like this horrible perpetrator in florida can go to a judge and say he should not be able to possess or buy a gun. st people who dropped a dime on him wl the fbi and flpolice wou have gone. there was very little she could do to hold this. he was rational.
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there was nothing she could really do to imprison him and force him. >> i think the very unpopular reality of this as we try to find solutions is our constitutional system does not allow for one blanket solution to this. it has to -- we have certain protections bl it's fourth amendment protections, second amendment rights to bear arm. there's all kinds of different protections that don't allow for some of the more sweeping ideas from other sides of people just do something. we can't just do something. there's checks and balances as a result of that in a sweeping way. the idea of extending baker act, you have to be very careful with that. who's going to make those determinations? we have start with hardening
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schools. my home state of new jersey that's started. also fixing the system so you can catch it beforehand. there were so many warnings signs and i failed. >> we have to take a quick break. including the president's take. a live report from the white house wen we come back. familiar faces, new indictments in the mueller probe. customer service!d. ma'am. this isn't a computer... wait. you're real? with discover card, you can talk to a real person
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vr we're talking about arming teachers for reacting to or preventing the next school shooting. president trump has been talking about it and seems to support it. how did the president roll out this notion? >> reporter: he had a listening session at the white house. today was stated local officials from law enforcement, from schools. he said point blank, he wants to be the president that ends this problem. he said too many presidents have sat around talking about it, not working to end it. talking about arming those school teachers and officials. he also talked about video games. he said they are far too viol t violent. he had a viert of things he talked about on social media. one consensus ran through it, it was more guns are needed. gun free zones in schools. he said student shooters would not come into schools if they knew people were armed.
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the idea of suicide by kop is very familiar. that's what a lot of shooters do. arming school teachers, anderson, i guess that would mean suicide by history teacher. >> is there any indication how the white house plans to turn these ideas into action? >> reporter: that's a open question here. he will convene more of a meeting here. the question is, will he lead his party beyond any of these discussions. will he actually con front the nra. the only divisions between the president and the nra today was the age limit for buying these type of weapons. he said 21 is a good age. the nra says no, no. it should stay at 18. next week he will talk with lawmakers as well as the nation's governors. we'll see if any legislation comes of it. >> thanks.
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they all rejected the idea. do you believe the president would disagree publicly and take on the nra on the issue of raising the minimum age for being able to buy rifles? >> it's a pretty small issue. yes. he's probably the only person could do this. the day after the shooting he said i'm the only one that can fix it. it's usually not the case. it is with him. ronald reagan supported the brady bill which was a really big gun safety law. it out lawed banned high capacity magazines and required this background check that the nra hated it. republicans still worship rojnad reagan. they named airplanes and waste water factories after him. barack obama couldn't get anything through.
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this president. he could. he could do so much. not just this thing about the age which would be fine. i think they're playing a gun with the bump stock idea which he says we're going to let the justice department and atf look at it. it's pretty clear that you need a law. it's a pretty minor law. he ought to go right where reagan went which is these assault weapons. >> i also think there's an opening because of senators, including what marco rubio suggested. today senator pat roberts of kansas who also has taken money. he came out and supported raising the age limit on ar-15 rifles.
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however you want to debate that public policy. the banning of assault weapons a sounds really good but marco rubio was shouted down by this. if you ban -- the way it's currently written, it's like 200 different types of rifles. there's 2,000 guns. they will make modify kags around that. unless you ban all of them, which is not going to happen nor should it because the majority of gun violence in the country doesn't happen with assault weapons. the fbi doesn't keep stats of assault weapon crime because it happens so infrequently. just whether that's actually going to work or not versus what mak makes people feel good.
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>> there's a danger that our bar is so low because we haven't been able to, there's nothing barack obama would have wanted more probably than to get gun reform through. raising the age as paul said or bump stocks. that's small ball. it's like giving advil to a cancer patient saying you cured them. i agree donald trump is the person who can do this. he should fight for banning assault weapons. he should fight for registries. she should fight for criminal background checks. not just background checks. what he's referring to may be fixing the system. there's big specific things he can do. if he wants to be a leader and he has the political capital to do it, chothose are the things should do. >> you think he should ban handguns too? they are semi-automatic.
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>> the big rallying cry for the nra is enforce the laws on the bus. our gun laws are like swiss cheese. there's three big holes. first a background checks. 60% of gun transfers go to people bho have no background check. the second is that states have to voluntarily provide information to be included in the database that the background check is run against. only 13 states voluntarily comply. the federal government can't make them do it. the third is that only 11 states require the reporting of stolen firearms and stolen firearms are disproportionately used in crime. it didn't happen this this case but in general. these are ways that we can enforce the laws on the books without banning anything just as a starting point. >> we have to take a quick break. there's new indictments against paul manafort and rick gates.
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has been a second chance to represent my country. i get to show my children and the world that, yeah, i might have been knocked down, but i'm up, and i'm honored to be able to represent the flag. comcast is grateful to all who have served our country, and we're proud to bring the 2018 olympic and paralympic winter games home to everyone. robert mueller is back. he's issuing new indictment against paul manafort and rick gates. the indictments are chocked full of details about millions of dollars being flung around the planet. can you cut through the weeds for us. explain what's in it, why it's fantastic. >> this indictment is about bank fraud and it's about tax fraud. what gates and manafort are
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allege tods had to have done ea millions of dollars overseas and instead of lawfully reporting it as income, they funneled it to different types of vendors. whether it was service providers or reality. what they did is they evaded paying millions and millions of worth of taxes. it's about lying to the government. it's about lying to banks. >> the indictment does not mention the trump campaign. if mueller is trying to get them to flip or agree to a plea deal, this would be more leverage. >> certainly. these charges, 32 different counts carry decades worth of years in jail for each of them. the strategy probably is given their role on the campaign, the fact that paul manafort was in
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that june 2016 meeting with russian surrogates, given their knowledge about how money moves around the world, if there was any allegation about money coming into the trump campaign from overseas. if that's one area the special counsel is looking at, these would be the guys who would know how to do it. if the special counsel can convince gates to plead guilty which has been an ongoing question, whether or not he will do so, gates there for would be able to turn on manafort and that would provide devastating witness evidence in addition to the extensive documentation that's contained in the indictment. >> let me ask the reverse. what incentive do they have to resist a plea deal until they think the government case is weak. it's a pbig roll of the dice fo either of them. >> they face incredible exposure and given the details in the
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indictment, the documents that the special counsel has. they have dates, amounts of money, locations of where the money went for just pages and pages in this indictment. their incentive for not cooperating really is a big question mark. whether or not they think they're going to get a pardon. we don't know. whether or not they think they could beat this. obviously, manafort issued the statement tonight thinking they could pebeat it. there's tremendous amount of detail laid out in this indictment. >> thanks very much. is there any way to look at this. >> it's a spectacular amount of pressure. i think you pointed that out. the most interesting thing about this case is the dog that didn't bark. the president hasn't said anything. when is the last time we said that sentence? he's been utterly silent about
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the manafort case. very smart. he's probably listening to you. >> he said discipline. >> that's a word we don't use. if he praises and defends m manafort will say he's setting him up for pardon. if he attacks him, you might flip him. he's got to be silent. this is the only time i've seen donald trump be this discipline and silent. good for him. >> is that how you see this? >> no. we are where we are. >> i was praising him for inves. we know that people have been looking into carter page since 2014. they've been following his connections. we're now multi-millions of dollars into this investigation. they've hired more people.
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this investigation has opinion going on longer than the trump campaign has existed. we're still at no collusion. i think it's great we can fill up this cable time and the trump haters can pray something brings him down. it looks like manafort is the tarlgt of this investigation and gates will flip on it. >> you think this is it? >> i would say going back to 2014, they have been monitoring carter page involvement and knowing everything is leaking into d.c., we haven't seen anything. i think manafort is probably end target. >> we haven't seen much of anything that mueller has. we were completely surprised by george papadopoulos. >> we continue to be surprised. we know it's not just collusion. it's also obstruction of justice. it's not just a sole piece of this. >> and also possible financial crimes. >> the question has always been
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one. >> they do have a top money laundering attorney. >> you look at this and reminds them but when manafort was so desperate to get on the trump campaign and not be paid any money. why is that? we have no idea. we're all guessing about what mueller has and what he doesn't have. he's going to surprise us and chase this to the end. if you're indicted, you may be indicted again. i think it's more that the tail is much longer than we thought it was. >> what we definitely know is what we already knew is that paul manafort is a shady operator that shouldn't have been within 100 miles of trump campaign and only there because at that point in time trump had real trouble attracting any respectable talent. >> except for carter page. >> these tax case, once you have them on paper they are really hard to fight. you can basically make the case without any argument.
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you just let people look at the documents. he's under major pressure. we don't know if he knows anything about trump. >> i think that we know that mueller is continuing this pressure and he does have a key interest this manafort. if the idea is to get him to flip is mueller has someone higher up the chain. the other thing that's curious about this is it's brought in the eastern district of virginia. this is because the crimes were committed in the eastern district of virginia. one of the defendants did not want to waive venue. they wanted it to happen there. that's a little curious. >> why would that be? >> one of the things i've been thinking about is there's some states where if the federal government prosecutes first, the state is precluded from filing state charges. if virginia is one of those cases and angling for pardon then they are inoculating themselves tr being prosecuted by the state.
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do with russia and 2016 interference. he's confident he will be acquitted. back with the panel. >> good luck with that. anyone who has read the details of this indictment will see that paul manafort was engaged in some significant financial crimes. the offshore accounts, the people he worked for in the ukraine were pro-russia. they were doing all kinds of very shady things there. >> why would he have joined the campaign? with all the spotlight that would put on him. >> i think desperate times call for desperate measures. he was not making any money the way he used to. the ukraine money has dried up. he owed people money. >> he owed some russians a lot of money.
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those guys don't exactly send you a lawsuit in the mail. he was manipulating money with real estate loans and so were rick gates. they were forging financial documents. these are tangible things that the special prosecutor has. proving fraud that he committed. good luck. >> if you're doing all these thing, you would think the last thing you would do is like i'm going to go for the most high profile job and give interviews and be face of this campaign until they say i'm not. >> that's why you get away with these things. first of all, to lie to the fbi. >> he probably figured he could get away. >> or sell access. >> there was all this talk with rick gates, is gates going to flip. >> the question is like if this is the end game and this is the
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biggest fish that mueller's going to get then there's nowhere to go. this is just about putting m manafort in jail until he dies. to get that sweet deal, manafort has to be able to give information information. the question is what is that information. he was gragreeing to work for free. the government had evidence that he was likely -- he was working on behalf of a foreign intelligence service. question know from first indictment he was receiving money. he broke his bail because he was still spying. this guy was the head of the campaign. whether or not trump knew about it, wie need to be concerned if he was sent there by the russians there's a huge national security threat. >> what was the purpose of that. does he know, again, maybe these other two people in that meeting were unwitting or innocent.
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what was the intent of russia if they were recollected to intelligence in getting that. what were they trying to obtain. >> they changed the republican platform during the convention. that became more pro-russia and ukraine which is something that republicans -- that wasn't a normal republican policy. it's the only change they made to the platform. seems a little suspicious to me considering manafort worked for the pro-russian ukraine. that seems quid pro quo to me. >> they had opinion following this guy for a number of years. we know the fbi leaks more than anyone before mueller came on board. no leak of a direct collusion ties. wh we have a lot of fog. i call it partisan fog.
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we don't have that direct tie. that says something here. >> we're going to talk to tom friedman. why has donald trump, of all the people he's criticized, not said anything negative about vladmir putin. >> i don't know. look at syria. he drew a red line when they attacked with chemical weapons. look at ukraine. he's giving them weapons. what you see is time after time the president engaging russia is a proactive american way. >> i don't think anyone probably knows the answer to that question. maybe there's some deep terrible secret.
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my guess is it's donald trump thinks the whole russia thing is fake news. it's undermining the legitimacy of his election. he never makes the slightest concession of interest. he's not going to say anything about this matter. it would have been better served to say the russians hacked the dnc and other e-mails. that's wrong and it shouldn't happen again. >> look at his actions. his actions are very aggressive. >> not sanctioning putin when congress ordered him to do it. >> we got another take. the president of russia tom friedman who said president trump is compromised by the russians or is a towering fool. plap
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president obama was. he recalls the piece on russia in which he said, quote, our democracy is in serious danger when in viral. tom, you called this a code red. you said our democracy is in serious danger. president trump is either totally compromised by the russians or is a towering fool, or both, but either way he has shown himself unwilling or unable to defend america against a russian campaign to divide and undermine our democracy. i was stunned by just his response alone on the friday when those indictments came out. it was all about himself. it was nothing about manning the ramparts, how we're going to martial the full resources of the u.s. government to make sure this never happens again. >> that's not surprising to you, anderson, on to me, because let's be clear. donald trump is still president of the trump organization, and donald trump fan club, and he moonlights as president of the united states when it is convenient for him. his reaction is so off that it seems to me very clear now.
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he is either totally compromised by the russians, they either have some financial thing on him or some sexual thing on him from his days running miss universe in moscow, or he is a towering fool. a towering fool who actually believes vladimir putin, as trump told us, that when he asked putin whether he was guilty of this putin said no, absolutely not. so why is that so dangerous for us? because trump has violated the norms of being a president ever since he's become president, okay? with his incessant tweeting, the now several thousand lies and misstatements he's made just in the first year. the way he's abused his cabinet members. we've never seen a president defy the norms of office this way. but what he did in failing to act in this clear and present danger of russia intervening in our elections as defined by his intelligence chiefs, two of whom
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he appointed, by failing to respond to that, he's not violating the norms of his office, he is violating the oath of his office. >> the bottom line for you, this goes beyond this president of russia. you truly believe american democracy is at stake here. >> oh, yeah. what are our crown jewels? what is the thing that really distinguishes us most from any other country? and that is that we have free and fair elections and rotations in power. that the winner cedes to the lo loser in the presidency every four or eight years, and they do so peacefully. what do we say all over the world with erdogan in turkey, with putin in russia, with jinping in china. we are on that road. we will be on that road -- if you imagine, anderson, in our next election if they don't just
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do this on twitter or facebook, if they actually get into voting systems in a state or city. what if we cannot trust the actual voting results? that's the end of our democracy. so as i say, what would a real president do right now? first of all, in the face of those reports last week, he would have gone on national television and said, my fellow americans, i need to educate you on the scale of the problem as my intelligence chiefs have been telling me. second, he would have called together all the stakeholders, local and state election officials, national election officials, the social networks, the leaders of the two parties and say, we have to put in place defensive measures to make sure this not only stops what the russians are doing now but prevents them from doing it in the future. and thirdly, he would have called together his national security team and said, look what putin is doing. putin is using social networks to spread lies about our democracy. what we're going to do is go on
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the offense against him. we're going to throw a high fastball right under his chin, and we are going to use the same systems to spread truth about his autocracy. how about a little fire, scarecrow? how about the billions that putin socked away? how about all the people he made disappear? where are we in that? sitting back and every day twidd twiddling our thumbs and saying, woe is me, and trump simply making it about himself. that is a der liderelicdion of . we'll be right back. more news ahead. tripadvisor.
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with advil's fast relief, you'll ask, "what pulled muscle?" "what headache?" nothing works faster to make pain a distant memory. advil liqui-gels and advil liqui-gels minis. what pain? . that's it for us. time to hand it over to don lemon. "cnn tonight" starts right now. >> this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. thanks for joining us. we have shocking news on the school shooting. an armed deputy who was armed waited outside the high school as shots rang out over and over and over
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