ton on "the axe files." republican senator jeff flake on his decision to retire. >> i couldn't see agreeing with the president and condoning his behavior. if that was the price to win re-election. i wasn't willing to pay it. >> his take on the gun debate after personally coming under fire. >> i still remember thinking of that time, why us? why here. i've done this 18 years now. and it's time for a new chapter. >> and his next political move. >> you don't look to me like a guy ready to quit. >> no, i'm not. >> welcome to "the axe files." senator flake, great to see you. you know, i remember hearing about you when you came to the house. and people said, this guy is

going places. this guy is the face of the new conservative movement. and now you're leaving. >> right. >> and not entirelily voluntarily. >> yeah. >> do you wake up in the morning ever and say what happened. >> yes, i do. >> you posted this video in 2016 of elephants charging your jeep. and it strikes me that's sort of a metaphor here. like the republican party is not the republican party that you recognize. >> no, it's not. i have a carved ryan ohs ris in may office. republican in name only. i guess i just embraced. >> you wrote this book about that called conscientious of a conservative. i wrote somewhere you didn't tell the staff you were working tennessee on it. >> right. >> but it's a blisters

indictment of president trump and trumpism and the direction of the party. >> it's not just indictment of trump and trumpism but we were headed this direction longing a. we stopped being the party of limited government, economic freedom, individual responsibility. and drifted off to fight the culture wars. that's when you always know you are in a bad place. when you stop talking as a republican about limited government or, you know, limiting -- spending and you start talking about flag burning or other cultural issues, or immigration to try to make up for not being conservative fiscally, you have to emphasize other issues. and you know when we started doing that, you know, 2006, you know, terrie schiavo issues and whatnot. i knew we were in trouble and lost the majority in the house and senate at that time. >> but, you know, you look at the tax cuts, very, very strong wave of deregulation.

>> right. >> but you don't believe the president is a conservative. >> well, no, i don't. being a conservative. >> you voted with him -- you're probably in the top five of people who voted with the president on policy. >> well in terms -- when you look on the policies -- most of what the senate does in the first year of a president's time is vote on his nominees, filling out his cabinet and then court picks as well. i'm a conservative. and so i do vote to put the judiciary in a more conservative direction. certainly deregulation. but being a conservative is not just being conservative on policy. it's being conservative in comportment. and demeanor, and manners. and anything but that in the white house right now. >> you know, and you wrote about this your book. i was in a focus group in peoria the other day with a group of people who had voted for trump. they don't like his tweeting. >> right. >> but basically they say he is

fulfilling promising on this issue. >> right. >> on this issue that troubles you his lack of decor up. they say he says the stuff other people won't say. and sometimes it's a little rough. >> right. >> but at least he is authentic. we know he says what he thinks. it's really an indictment of politicians you know. >> it is. but words matter. words matter. when the president talks about the press as the enemy of the people, for example, and then talks about fake news, calling real news fake within, and fake news real, that has ramifications, particularly internationally. when authoritiarians everywhere borrow that language to justify cracking down on dissent and legitimate opposition as fake news. when the president talks about mexicans in a demeaning way or talks about mexico paying for the wall, that has ramifications, long-term ramifications. and so that's why, you know,

when people say the tweets or the language doesn't matter it's just trump being trump, it does matter. i just returned from a trip overseas in the middle east talking to diplomats, talking to heads of state, and others. and these things matter. these things matter. and it's not the way a conservative should act. >> you know, you use the word authoritiarians for regimes overseas. but you also use the authoritiarianism as a concern about what's happening here. in fact, you gave a speep on this freedom of the press. >> it is a testament to the condition of our democracy that our own president uses words infamously spoken by joseph stalin to describe his nems. >> you mention the phrase of the president calling the media the enemy of the people. you note it was a phrase stalin used. >> right. >> do you think the president has authoritiarian indistinct

and impulses. >> well he certainly has a fondness for authoritiarians around the world. but i just don't understand that. a lot of people have a hard time understanding it. it's not healthy in terms of our position in the world. i wasn't comparing the stalin. nobody compares to stalin. but what i couldn't understand and still can't understand is why the president would borrow language so identified with stalin. calling the press the enemy of the people. >> i think it's fair to say -- he should know better. >> he hadn't read the history. >> then his staff should kjell him. >> how does this white house compare to others you've worked with. >> it's different when you see the cabinet meetings. it's painful, frankly, to watch. and what's more painful is to hear some of my colleagues in the congress use similar language. i mean, there is -- we ought to have some kind of institutional pride at least, and some kind of

prerogative here. we are the article i branch. we shouldn't willingly give up the authority we give up on a number of issues. and that's particularly bother some to me. it's one thing for the cabinet and others to exhibit that behavior. it's all together another for the congress to do so. >> i wanted to ask you about that because i watched that speech that you gave. i didn't see a lot of people sitting around you as you were giving the speech. and i was wondering, because the speech was not just a chastisement or a condemnation of some of the things the president has said and done but also an admonition to colleagues to stand up to that. >> right. >> and i'm wondering, when you go back to the cloak room after that does anybody pull you aside and say, i'm dpad you said that, or why are you embarrassing us. >> i think it -- i do get a lot of people saying i'm glad you say that.

and i agree with you. but i do have a few saying, we shouldn't poke the bear like this or this doesn't do any good. we have to work with the president. certainly we do. the president signs or vetoes legislation. but -- but i had a big problem when our leadership a whiling a was saying we can't a immigration bill to the floor unless the president agrees with it. since when? >> i agree with you that that's the role the senate should play. but it strikes me that you may not be a great messenger for this because the fact is that you've spoken out on all of these things. >> yes. >> then you made a judgment you could not win your own parties primary in arizona. >> right. right. i certainly couldn't win as a republican running the kind of campaign that i felt i needed to run. i couldn't -- i just couldn't see agreeing with some of the president's positions and condoning his behavior. if that was the price to win

re-election, i simply wasn't willing to pay it. . and so i -- i may not be the best messenger in terms of how to saddle that, you know, some of the issues. but man, it's painful to see the congress defer so much to the president. >> you are someone who -- your reference for the institutions of democracy are clear. i mean, i share those. and we have different views on many things. >> right. >> but the institutions are what makes our dpemocrat -- >> right. >> great. what's your level of concern about their durability? >> i am concerned. i'm really concerned. you know, what will happen with regard to, you know, this president, if bob mueller comes back with -- with you know something damning. >> would in congress do anything about it? >> that's a concern i have. i do think that -- that enough

of our colleagues will stand up when they need to. but right now it's concerning to see so many simply say, you know, let's -- let's go shirts and skins on this. >> but there are two separate issues here. because what seems to motivate people now is fear, fear of ending up in a tweet. >> smur. >> fear of becoming a target. >> and a lot of that is new. >> you had a confrontation with the president before he became president. >> right. >> right before the convention last year. and you told him that he should tone down his. >> yeah. >> rhetoric. and he told you you're going to lose your re-election. >> at that time he had made statements when he launched his campaign on mexican immigrants that was derogatory. then he wenten after john mccain and said he couldn't be a war hero because he was captured nonmaking a statement about the judge because of his heritage,

the judge born in indiana,ible, calling him a mexican. just that's beyond the pale. when you look at where our party needs to go in the future, if we want to be a governing majority, we can't do these things. we shouldn't do these things. >> you mentioned senator kmain. i know you are close. he is a senior senator from your state. >> yes. >> at c-pac last week the president went after him. >> remember, one person walked into a room when he was supposed to go this way. and he said he was going this which. and he walked in with, and he went this way. and everyone said, what happened? what was that all about? boy, boy, who was that i don't know. i don't know. i don't want to be controversial so i won't use his name. >> we know senator mccuen is fighting a serious illness. what was your reaction to that.

>> same reaction i had before. you can have disagreements with people without going after them like that. i went to see john a couple weeksing a at his rambling in assess. he is working hard and recovering. i hope we have him back. but he is a genuine hero in times of war and peace. and to go after him like the president has done on occasions is simply not fair. >> but the president does move the base. >> he does. >> i saw -- the other day i was looking at some polling. and positive ratings of putin doubled from 17 to 34. and the ratings of the fisher have dropped precipitously. >> yes. >> isn't this what your colleagues fear. >> i have seen some polling recent where you test issues people are concerned with. but economy, immigration, jobs, education, those are the things that perrinually are at or near the top. but at the top right now with republicans, the base, is where

you are with trump in terms of -- if you are an elected official looking to re-election or looking to gauge where the voters are. the most important issue for republicans that votely regularly in primaries are, are you with the president? and that's -- that's something we haven't seen before to this degree certainly. and i don't think it's a very healthy position to be in, to be wedded to the president in his positions or his behavior. so i -- i just think long-term for republicans that's not a good place to be in. >> when you were in the house -- >> right. >> maybe your closest ally there was congressman from indiana named mike pence. >> yes. >> you voted together, worked closely together. you had come from similar backgrounds in terms of policy. >> right. >> do you keep in touch with him now. >> i do. >> how do you -- how do you guys deal with each other?

because he seems to be as committed and as defending of this president as anyone on the planet. >> yeah, mike and i both ran think tanks, conservative think tanks in the 90s, got elected the same time. we were good friends, still are. but for 12 horsepower in the house, very, very close. our families are close. and so it's been a little different to have him in the white house. >> has he called you after some of the speeches, the book and so on. >> we talk. he comes to the senate often. i'm flad he does. i'm glad he is where he is. i am. he is a good man. >> is he just trying to survive this. >> i don't want to say. but i can say he is intensely loyal. he never uttered one syllable that would lead anyone to believe that he wasn't be being loyal to this administration or this president. >> has he been loyal to you as a friend. >> sure. >> has he asked you to stop

doing what you are doing. >> i have no complaints. he is a good friend. >> next on "the axe files.." >> we have seen this before after hand sandy hook but nothing happened. >> yes. >> why should assault weapons be so readily available? first, we head to vermont. and go to our coffee shop. and meet dave. hey. why is dark magic so spell-bindingly good, he asks? let me show you. let's go. so we climb. hike. see a bear. woah. reach the top. dave says dark magic is a bold blend of coffee with rich flavors of uganda, sumatra, colombia and other parts of south america. like these mountains, each amazing on their own. but together? magical. all, for a smoother tasting cup of coffee. green mountain coffee roasters packed with goodness. we're almost there. ohhh. she's coming! stall. my video call's lagging. mom? surprise! surprise! hold up. hold up. we got a laggy video call here. yeah. you need verizon, the best network for streaming. here try this new samsung galaxy s9 on verizon unlimited.

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you wrote in this books, this politicians was a generation in the making and would force us to corners from which we would regard though believe ditchly from us not merely as political opponents but as a sworn enemy. >> that's really really troubling. we have seen this drift where it's not just those across the aisle i have a disagreement with. but it's the enemy. and i got a real taste of it when president obama was elected not long there after he invited several of us to play basketball on the court of the south lawn. so cnn i think and other outlets were reporting who had been invited. i got to the white house.

i was in the basement there putting on the basketball shoes. and i got a call that was patched through from the capitol switch board or someone, a woman just hysterical. and she had seen reports i was playing basketball with president obama. and she was just crying saying don't play basketball with that man. and it was just this -- this emotion, and perhaps when i felt it most was when gabby giffords was shot and a year later she came back to capitol hill to retire but at the state of the union. i sat with her. she is still a good friend of mine. and she was unable given her condition still to stand up. >> you helped her. >> i would help her up which rest me the lone republican standing to the democratic applause lines. i immediately got texts and

emails, the rest of the night. why are you standing. >> for a simple act of decency. >> this is out of control it really is. >> you've experienced this in a more visserle and frightening way. you were on the field last june when the republicans were practicing for the annual republican/democrat baseball game. and you came under fire. this was the -- the shooting in which representative scalise was shot. >> right. >> tell me about that day. >> i've been doing this baseball game, one of the best institutions in congress, you play against each other in republicans and democrats. but it's a bipartisan affair. it's wonderful. but so i've been doing this, this is my 18th year this year. we were out there. and all of a sudden, you know, a shot rang out. we were trying to figure out what it was. and immediately there after a volley of gunfire -- i just remember of all the memories, whether it was you know going

out to steve scalise after, having to plug up the wound in his hip. >> yeah, what -- you ran over there and you were trying to tie off the bleeding until the. >> yeah, i got out there first and brad came he was a doctor, fortunately a medic who knew what he was doing. but then calling steve's wife afterwards to let her know her husband had been shot and wanted her to hear it from somebody else in the news. >> when you saw him on the ground did you. >> it was awful. we were in the dugout part of the time applying a tourn kit to another staffer who had been shot. and not able to get out to steve because of the gunfire was still raging overhead. but the most enduring memory i have of that is when the volley -- the first volley rang out, the one that got steve. i turned to the dugout to the only place you could run to.

and i could see bullets pitching on the gravel around or in front of where i had to run. but i just -- i still remember thinking at that time, why us? why here? really? i mean, can somebody look out at a field, with middle age men playing baseball and see the enemy? it just -- i just remember that thought lingered, you know, how, why? and you know, our politics has come to a bad place. it turned out the shooter had a list of republicans he didn't like or didn't like policies that the party had adopted. and it's -- it's just an awful place we're in right now. >> this discussion of guns and. >> right. >> and gun violence is very, very ripe now again, sadly. >> yes. >> because of the events in florida. that shooter used an ar-15. the shooter who shot at you guys

also used a semiautomatic -- it was an sks. >> ska. >> a russian weapon. why should assault weapons be so readily available. >> i don't think they should be. and one thing that myself and diane feinstein -- it's to lift the prohibitition to age 21. this shooter in florida, 19 years old, was able to purchase an ar-15 when he couldn't purchase a handgun. i don't think you can explain why he should have such ready access to an assault type weapon. >> can it pass. >> i'll also introduce with susan collins, the no fly, no buy, something that makes sense. >> explain that. >> if you're on a no-fly list where you can't get on a airplane. >> you're viewed as a security risk. >> you have a security risk but no prohibitition right now. that ought to keep you on a similar list not to purchase a

weapon. i would think but we haven't gotten that passedy yet. i hope we are able to. i sense we may have crossed a rubiken on that. >> have the kids made an kwakt. >> they have. they are exited and articulate. and they have access to social media that really is changing the game and so i hope that -- that they keep at it. py talked to one of the victims's father's last night. and it is just devastating. but they are really trying to make something good out of this. and i commend them for it. >> you have a good rating with the nra. >> i grew up in a ruler area. i don't want to make criminals out of those selling a .22 caliber rifle to a friend or something like that. but we can have restrictions. we do have age restrictions on

handgun for example. automatic weaponry. >> you mention all these things. they probably all poll astronomically well. and we have seen this before after sandy hook, another horror but nothing happened. what will be different now. >> yeah, i -- having these high school kids who can speak and speak articulately, and can organize through social media. their parents are organized as well. that seems to have been maybe the missing ingredient. and if it's sustained -- and it will need to be sustained -- then i think we can make common sense changes that we should make. >> can you do it without the president. >> yeah, i think the president will come around. but i think we may have to move forward recognizing the president may not agree until it gets to his desk. we personsed this on grimimmigrn as well. what with he talk about on capitol hill it tuesday trump or

the thursday trump. the tuesday trump accommodating on daca for example and the solution there. but then the thursday trump having listened to some of the base saying you can't do this, not as accommodating. and so we may see that play out with the gun issue as well. >> announcer: coming up next on "the axe files." >> ten brothers and sisters. grew up on a cattle ranch, just lost the end of my one index finger so made out quite well actually. nsula trail? you won't find that on a map. i'll take you there. take this left. if you listen real hard you can hear the whales. oop. you hear that? (vo) our subaru outback lets us see the world. sometimes in ways we never imagined. (avo) get 0% apr financing on all-new 2018 subaru outback models. now through april 2nd.

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southern utah. legend has it he trofrpd around six months and told brigham young there is nothing worth settling. >> he said sell all you have and go and look harder. he did he bought the valley where snow flake now is. one of the mormon apostles over the colin sedation of arizona came down to look at the settlement. he asked if it had a name yet. my great, great grandfather said no. >> and he said call it snow flake for the two of us. that's where i grew up. it was an idyllic way to grow up. 10 brothers and sisters, grew up on a cattle ranch. just lost the end of my one index finger so made out well actually. my uncle jake flake was the speaker in the house of arizona. long tradition of public service. but in such a good way. these were men and women who, you know, knew that you -- you

had to get things done. he grew up on a ranch. and you. >> half the found is exact and half is republican by ordnance. >> in the late 180 ohs, the mormon church was concerned that you might have too many people in the church in one party or another. when the administration change it might put the church in a bad way with the new administration. they famously went to a lot of congregations in utah and arizona and said basically those sitting in the left pews today register democrat those in the right -- or vice versa. but it didn't matter as much then. and certainly all i ever witnessed was republicans and democrats working together and getting things done. and that's been kind of the example i've had. >> let me ask you about that finger. my buddy rahm emmanuel who you served with. he was missing half of middle

finger. president obama once said it rendered him mute that he lost half his mill will middle finger how did you lose. >> where i lived if you didn't lose at least one you weren't working hard. but mine i was only five years old. we were working on a machine that cuts alfalfa, removing the long blade and i put my finger where i shouldn't have age 5, snipped the end off. i don't remember too much. >> you became a rancher at that point. >> my dad grabbed the finger, the end of the finger put it on the end of my finger and wrapped it with a hanky put me in the truck and finished the jb and drove me to the doctor. he sewed it back on but it fell off later in the snow flake's only swimming pool. i remember yelling to my mom on the side and ten siblings around i said mom, mom, my finger fell

off she looks around it's only the mother of 11 can do what she said, shh, don't tell anybody. but it was a wonderful way to grow up. and i -- i learned a lot. and i learned how to work. and i learned how to get along certainly with ten siblings. you need to do that. >> yes. you also worked with immigrants. >> yes. >> and you write in your book about that as well. and you in fact talked about being a decoy to try and keep the feds flaing over from rounding up the immigrants working on your ranch. >> it was interesting at that point i should oit out it wasn't illegal to hire them it was illegal for them to be in arizona there was little deterrence at the border. >> did you get to know the folks. >> i did. i wrote about one, manuel, a

work erik on our farm. he married a citizen, got his green card, still lives in snow flake. i saw him this past summer at my father's funeral. a god man raised six children. of his own in snow flake who have all participated in the american dream. and i've always said if you worked with migrants, dwrints like manuel, it's tough to look at people coming across illegal as a criminal class. they were just trying to make life better for themselves. and in turn they made life better for all of us. and sometimes -- i'm all for change on our immigration policy, making sure we have people who can come here to help with our economy. but there should always be room in america for people whose only credential is a strong back or a willingness to work, and so many

of our own ancestors including mine came under that premise. and i think if i have a problem with where the party now is it's that. and i -- i just think that we -- we have lost something as a party becoming such a nativist group and demeaning immigrants, and devaluing immigration. >> you are in the middle of this fight right now about daca. >> right. >> you voted for the president's tax which will. and at that time you said you had an understanding with the white house. >> right. >> that they would work this through with you. where are we now. >> this needs to be fixed. it needs to be fixed on a permanent basis. the kids should be put on a path to citizenship. that's the ultimate solution. but i've come to conclude after the last debate that the best we can do right now is to offer them at least some assurance. i'm introducing along with heidi

heitkamp legislation that would extend daca or codify daca for three years and provide some border security funding, what the president has requested basically three years. we're calling it the three for three bill. if we say with extend daca without a path to citizen ship for a three-year period then i think an equitable trade is to say we give the president what he asked for for a three-year period for border security funding. >> you also were strongly opposing of the so-called muslim ban. >> right. >> i want to read this from the book. when we say no muslims or no mexicans we may as well say no mormon because it's no different. that kind of talk is the dagger in heart of mormons. it's a dagger in my heart. >> yes. >> explain that. >> when the president came out and some people said he didn't really say it but he did. he said we want a total and

complete ban on muslims entering the country. a muslim ban. >> donald j. trump is calling for a total and complete shut down of muslims entering the united states. >> i thought that was awful. i don't know how anyone could stand up and say that that's where we as a country ought to go, or that that is consistent with our constitution and our values. and so i -- that week actually i went to a moscow and gave a talk there, talking about similarities of mormons and muslims if you will or the persecution there's been in the past, and expressing some solidarity with knows under attack here. and, one, i think it's -- it certainly doesn't comport with our values. but it doesn't comport with our security needs either. it's just not smart to have a ban like this. >> do you think it was still motivated by the same impulses.

>> it's hard to say. hard to argue that it's not. when you look at the countries it affected. but it fits some kind of narrative we're being tough on immigration or security issues when really in many ways we are simply punishing people we ought to help. >> i saw this morning a new study by the a.d.l. saying that acts of anti-submitism were up 57% in the country. are we becoming less tolerant. >> i think so. if the parties are fighting like this, if you lever to the political opponents as losers or clowns as we have seen, then it -- you know this polar sedation spreads as well. you see it among ethnic groups and among people at large. and that's not a healthy situation. >> announcer: ahead, on "the axe files,". >> i do think the president will have a challenge from the republican party. i think there should be. i also think that there will be

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you know, i want to ask you about a fellow mormon, mitt romney, who is running in utah now. and very likely. >> right. >> going to win. what's striking about what's going on in congress right now is there are people outspoken. you've been outspoken. senator mccuen has been outspoken for a while corker was outspoken and pulled back. what impact will mitt romney have in the senate. >> i think it will have a bill impact. i'm a good friend of mitt romney. i encourage him to run. i don't think he is going out of his way to criticize the president. but he will certainly not shy away from doing it. he will come to the senate with immediate, you know, credentials and gravitas. he is a effective and needed

voice. >> looking back on your career there's been an elevation. and you were very much considered an idea log when you came to congress. there were votes on spending where flake appeared almost alone in the roster of no votes. >> right. >> do you look back at that with any -- any nuanced analysis, would you say, gee, i wish i would have done something differently. >> i'm still a lonely end of votes here. i mentioned one in the bock with regard to the bailout. >> the tarp. >> right. >> to prop up wall street after the collapse of lehman brothers in 2008. >> that was an example of me hoping yes and voting no. >> which i had the luxury of doing that. >> a lot of people do that. >> hoping yes but you want to do to pass. you just didn't want your name on it. >> that's right. it seems the only thing we can do on a bipartisan basis now is spend money we don't have. and if you spread enough around

then you can get bipartisan support. and unfortunately i think this will come back to bite us over time. >> you know on the t.a.r.p. vote i was working for senator obama at the time and running for president in the midst of running for president. >> right. >> he tried to help and brought democrats along, which wasn't a popular. >> right. >> thing to do. >> i mention that in the book. would that happen today? i have a hard time seeing that happening today, where -- where john mcmahon suspended their political campaign and to come out and round up votes on their side. that was one vote i regret, because i think i basically relied on my colleagues to do what i knew we had to do. >> a few months later the mess was dropped in our laps and president obama's lap. >> right. >> and i remember every day weigh up and going to meetings about how we were going to keep the economy from sliding into a

second great depression. >> right. >> senator mcconnell spoke to it we didn't want to potter him because that would signify he had overcome the fwrid lock in washington that was a replying willing victory for him. that was through true throughout eight years of obama presidency. >> that's something i think all of us certainly the -- in this environment with president trump, people will say, well if you oppose the president, if you're opposed to his policies and his behavior it should be your role to oppose him on everything. but i don't think that's the case. i think that people criticize mitch mcconnell for making that statement that our role is to make barack obama a one-term president and try to hobl him in that regard. i will still vote with this president when i think he is right. and oppose him when i think he is wrong. i think that's my responsibility

in the senate. >> you mentioned in the book senator mcconnell blockade essential on the nomination of replacement for justice scalia. he said it was justified because now there is a republican nominated justice in that seat. what do you think about that? did the ends justify the means? and -- aren't we setting a norm now that will become damaging to the institution? >> i'm very worried about that, very concerned about how polarized this has been. republicans may say hey we pulled a fastest one got a conservative on the court. i'm a fan of judge gorsuch, glad he is where he is. but, you know what goes around comes around. and if we have a situation where we -- you know, use the procedural measures to block we can expect democrats to do it as well. and i don't think over time

we're setting very good precedent. >> is there an answer to this sort of spiral that we're in. >> i don't know. i don't know that we can change it with rules. it's just got to be behavioral. i do think that this fever will cool. that's my hope. resentment and anger -- it's not a governing philosophy. and that's what we seem to have now. and at some point i hope the >> do you see yourself as part of the solution? and could there be a third party or a third way or an independent movement? you don't look to me like a guy that's ready to quit? >> i've not sworn off elected office in the future. i think the fever will have to cool. there is not much place for a republican like me in a party like this right now. i know that. >> what about as an independent? >> that's always been the old saw. that's the future and it will

always be the future. but i think that future may be coming because when you look at this polarization we've seen on the right is also happening on the left and there has to be a huge s.w.a. huge swath of voters in the middle. >> your name has been mentioned as a potential candidate for the president in some sort of third party or bipartisan fusion effort. is that something that you would consider? >> that's not something i'm planning, no. >> that's not what i'm asking. i'm asking is it something that you would swear off? >> no, no. i wouldn't swear it off. i think, you know, we'll see where this goes. i do think the president will have a challenge from the republican party. i think there should be. i also think that there will be an independent challenge, particularly if the democrats

insist on putting somebody up from the far left of the party. so i've -- you know, two years is a long time in politics. up next -- >> in a matter of months you will be packing up your stuff here and moving back to arizona. what will your emotions be when you leave here? it's a lot easier to make decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. ♪ just remember what i said about a little bit o' soul ♪ things are just clearer. hesumatra reserve told in the time it takes to brew your cup. let's go to sumatra. where's sumatra? good question. this is win. and that's win's goat, adi.

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hear is that in the old days. >> right. >> senators would live here with their families. and that experience of living together in the community, going to little league games, going to church or synagogue, that was a bonding experience that no longer exists. >> that's true. there are certain democrats and republicans. i just have virtually no contact with outside of, you know, just greeting them on the floor or whatever else. and it's a real problem. i thought it was such a problem that i went with martin heinrich on an island to prove that republicans and democrats can get along, survive. >> how did that work? >> we survived. it was a good diet. >> so i see a picture over here of my old boss, president obama, and your family. what was your relationship? >> we talk. we called me after the shooting to make sure i was all right. and after i gave my speech, he called and the nicest thing that

he did, i think, is the last night he was in the white house, the day before inauguration, he called just to say that he had enjoyed working with me. and i certainly said the same. he didn't have to do that. it was very nice. >> i was in arizona in the last couple of days, and i ran into a republican who you know and is an admirer of yours. and he said this. he said i really respect jeff, but if he believes so deeply in these things, why doesn't he stay and fight? and if he loses, he loses, but take a stand. >> that's tempting, certainly. but when you run a campaign, it is not just you. you have got to get volunteers and staff and you have got to have donors. it is a whole effort. and to say to them, i'm not running to win. i'm just going to stand on principal, but i will surely lose, then, you know, that's not

fair to them. >> in a matter of months, you will be packing up your stuff here and moving back to arizona. >> right. >> when you walk out of this office, will you do it wistfully, with sadness? what will your emotions be when you leave here? >> oh. i'm sure a lot of emotion. one, i have done this 18 years now, and it is time for a new chapter. but having said that, i'm not leaving because i have ill feelings about the senate or any of my colleagues here. i love this institution. it's a wonderful institution. there are good people here on both sides of the aisle. and that's why i get so offended when the president or others refers to people on the democratic side as losers or clowns or that anybody uses that kind of vitriol that feeds the

s cynacism. >> for more of my conversation, visit itunes.com/axefile. it's 8:00 eastern, 5:00 in the evening out west. you are live in the "cnn newsroom." glad you're with us. to call it chaos an understatement. to call it crisis simply doesn't cover it. it is a west wing adrift, embroiled in resignation, sandals and feuds. but even for this administration led by a man who has embraced chaos as a way of life, the havoc in the white house is taking its toll. what i am about to tell you would have been much for a year of my presidency, but this all