>> against all odds, in the face of all that has threatened his reign, 2,000 years after the death of st. peter, the pope remains at the head of one of the most powerful institutions on earth. i'm van jones. this is "the van jones show." i want to welcome you to a special sunday night edition on a special night on cnn. tonight, we are going to be graced with the presence of a legend so powerful, she doesn't even need an introduction. she doesn't even need a last name. i don't even know what the call her. queen mother of planet earth, oprah winfrey is in the building!

she's in the building! [ cheers and applause ] oh, lord! oh, it don't make no sense! later on, it gets even better. we talk to a film director helping to lead a culture revolution in hollywood, she's bringing forward new voices, new stories, new viewpoints. the visionary director ava duvernay is also going the be--o be in the house. this is a bad show. it's a bad show. i love it. ava's latest film is called "a wrinkle in time" out this weekend. take your kids there if you have not gone. if you don't have no kids, go anyway because oprah's in that too. listen, you can tell i'm hyped. i'm excited. but it's not just because these guests are global superstars. i'm excited because they are two of the most inspirational human beings i've ever met. and personally i just need some hope right now. i am tired. i'm frustrated. i'm even scared because of stuff that's happening in our political system.

the crazy has just gotten crazier and crazier. everybody agrees that we should protect the dreamers. but we still can't pass the bill. everybody agrees we should do a better background check on people who want to buy bazookas and stuff, but we still can't pass a bill. not one bill. if barack obama did half the stuff that trump did just last week, he wouldn't be impeached, he'd be locked up in guantanamo someplace. am i wrong? but here we are and the leaders in congress are acting like everything is okay. it's not okay. so i hope we're going to elect some sane people during the midterm elections that can turn things around. in the meantime, the overall vibe around politics is so negative and nasty. i'm stayed involved in the fight, but i'm looking elsewhere for wisdom and insight and understanding. that's why i love talking to the cultural icons on this show so much. i just think the nonpoliticians can be more honest, can be more real, can be more truthful sometimes than the politicians.

it's also why on "the van jones show," we get out of d.c. we go to heartland. we've been to charlottesville, virginia, houston, texas, las vegas, nevada. what we find is on the ground the personal stakes for these issues are actually a lot higher but the circles are smaller. and the conversations feel different, like maybe they could actually get someplace eventually. so the whole point of this show is i think we've got to change where we think change is going to come from. in ordinary times business leaders and politicians run the society, and we play our parts in the margins. we got a serious crisis like this one. the business leaders can't create enough jobs for people. maybe for robots. and the politician just sit around and fight. where are the solutions going to come from? i believe they're going to come from unexpected people and unexpected places like the young students out there in florida and chicago who are marching to stop gun violence and the women who are breaking their silence demanding fairness.

and the dreamers who are saying, listen, we love america. you all better love us back. i mean, the poets, the protesters, the artists, the mystics, the crazy entrepreneurs who are taking on the world. that's where the hope's going to come from. and the hope is also going to come from profound visionaries who have huge platforms and who may not hold office but who do hold forth a bold vision for everybody. we need hope. we need wisdom. we need inspiration. so let's hear from a woman whose name is synonymous with all three. please welcome to "the van jones show," oprah winfrey. [ cheers and applause ] >> way to preach. hello. you were preaching a bit. >> i am. [ cheers and applause ] >> hello. hello, hello, hello. hello, hello, hello.

woo-h woo-hoo. >> oh, my goodness. >> van jones. >> so this is what it is? >> yes. >> looks like i've been watching you on television. you see me tweeting for you? >> i know. you tweet for me, then i get all kinds of attention. i love it. we miss you so much. >> well, we have you now. >> well, listen, i might be able to feel like a tiny little -- >> oh. >> we miss you so much. do you miss us? >> i actually miss you guys. i don't -- i miss you guys. because where i got fed every day was the audience. >> yes. >> and i did not miss a day in 25 years because of the audience. i don't care how badly i felt, i don't care what kind of cold, what kind of flu. i would come because i knew that, you know, in our audience every day were a couple hundred, 350 people every day who

literally told their aunts, their cousins, they came with their mothers, they came with their friends. and i know that the rppreparati to get there -- you've been coming from iowa, from tennessee, for days, so it's not just, oh, i'm going to the oprah show, it's girl, i'm going to the oprah show. >> i'm going to be on the oprah show. >> girl, i'm going to be on oprah, get my nails done, and people get pedicures, and so i say people let me see your toes. so i know it's a thing that people have prepared for. so they don't want to hear that you got a cold that day. >> means so much to us, and, you know, i have to let you know how it is for us now. we had you. we had the obamas in the white house. even on a bad day, you had a north star, you had some hope. then it was just like the universe said psych! and we're in the toilet and close the lid and we're stuck in this crazy situation. >> we have each other. we have each other. >> tell me about it. >> this is the thing i have to just say -- >> please say. >> everybody is feeding yourself

on the hysteria and the negativity. you got to stay in the light. one of the reasons why i was so excited about "a wrinkle in time" is the message is that the darkness is spreading so fast these days, you must become a warrior of the light. the reason it's so meaningful to me is because that's how i led my whole life. and every moment in that film i thought, like, i'm just saying what i normally say. >> it's true. >> and for these times, the darkness is there to show you your light. look at what has happened. so if you put the focus on look at what happened with the darkness that showed up in parkland and the darkness that showed up on the streets of ferguson and the darkness in many, many, many, many homes in chicago with the shootings and the senseless murders. it brings out the best in people. it brings out the best, and so that's what is there. we live on a planet where there is darkness and light.

you know, one of the things -- i am not running for office. i'm not ready to go there. but if i were running for office, and i will say to whoever it is going to run for office, do not give your energy to the other side. do not spend all your time talking about your opponents. do not give your energy to that which you really don't believe in. do not spend an ounce of your time on that. >> help us, though. >> don't spend your time on that. [ applause ] >> i love it. that's what we need, but let me just push back for a second because, you know, i got my love. i go out there and tell people, let's not become what we are fighting. let's not be what you're fighting. they tell me, shut up, van, because we got bigots out here, we got nazis out here, we got bullies. we're tired of going high. we're going to go low and kick them in the private partsp. >> there will be some people that do that, but you will not eventually win. you know who knew that? the civil rights workers and leaders. those people.

there's a strategy to -- that's why i said to these young people from parkland. you can't just go down there and march. there's a strategy to the marching. there's an intention. there has to be a very clear intention behind what you're doing and why you're doing it. so by the time rosa parks sat down on that bus, they had been planning that for a very long time. that had been coming for a long time. everybody talks about it. oh, that particular day, rosa just said, my feet were tired. that is not true. that was a strategic thing that happened there. so there hasn't been a darker time, i believe, for our people other than slavery, than what was going on in the civil rights movement, and the young people like the john lewises of the world said no more, enough, find another way. >> and help me with this. >> well, let me help you. it's law. it's law. you and i talked about this. we had long conversations about it. what i deeply believe is not do

unto others as you would have them do unto you. what you do is already done. that moment in "the color purple" where she says everything you ever tried to do to me. where whoopi says that, everything you already tried to do to me already done to you. so the law, the third law of motion of physics says that what you're putting out is coming back all the time. regardless of whether you know it or acknowledge it or not. so you have to stay as a warrior of the light. >> i believe, i believe it. i believe it. [ applause ] how? i want to get practical with you. she can say that because she's a gazillionaire. >> but the way i got to be a gazilligaz ilzun nair -- >> talk, talk, talk. preach.

>> the way i got to be a gazillionaire because this is what i have understood for a long time. >> every day, this is -- i'm going to tell you about my life, and you tell me how to fix it. i need help! i wake up in the morning, i'm trying to be a warrior of the light, and i reach for my cell phone, and i look at it, and i just start freaking out, and i freak out all day. what do you do all day? what are your rituals? >> i wake up in the morning -- >> what do you do? >> first thing i say is thank you. that's my first thing. even before i'm awake, before my eyes are fully open. i say thank you. i can feel the gratitude, like, i'm still here. i'm in a body. thank you so much. i thank you for that. >> gratitude. >> then i go through letting the dogs out, the whole, you know, brushing your teeth and all that stuff. and then i have either silence or prayer or something that acknowledges that i'm still here. i do not reach for that phone first. that's your problem. that's your problem. >> that's good. >> i understand. i understand. you're in the business, and -- >> yeah. >> and you need to know what

happening. what am i going to respond to today? >> i have get my cell phone. >> let me get in it. >> well, i love what you're saying. >> you don't believe it. >> no, i believe it. >> you don't believe it. you think you can fight it head on. you cannot meet it head on and fight it. you have to transcend it. >> transcend it. >> you have to. >> yeah. listen, i feel like -- and you've been going out now and talking to people. you are not only one of the best communicators in the world, part of that is because you're one of the best listeners in the world. when you go out with "60 minutes" and talking to people, what are you hearing from folks? in other words, i think we're so divided all in our own bubble, we build bubbles, not bridges. you're bridging. >> you know, what actually moved me so deeply was one of first stories i saw you do, that show changed me. i went to "60 minutes" and said, i want to do something like that. i want to be able to sit down with people who don't share the

same views and see if they can sit down with other people who don't share the same views and see if we can have a conversation. because i had an idea in my head of what a trump supporter was based upon what i had seen on the news. i'm telling you, honest to goodness -- i've told you this before. you know this is true. >> yeah, yeah. >> when i saw you walk into the home and interview the family, a father, two sons, a wife. >> the psych s -- sykes famil. >> she said she didn't vote because she couldn't vote for hillary or trump. and they had been obama supporters. >> two time obama supporters. >> that changed the way -- my whole perception. i said there's more to this than we're actually hearing and seeing. >> well, look -- >> so you influenced me deeply. [ cheers and applause ] i just wanted to say that. >> i'm -- i'm never speechless. my job is not to be speechless.

but i'm kind of speechless right now, but look, that changed me, too. it changed me, too. i'm still friends with them. >> are you? >> still friends. they text me encouragement, i text them back if i'm in that part of the country, they see me speak. they still support trump. but they're good people, hard working people. >> exactly right. >> they felt like nobody was listening to them, and i asked them, what about the terrible stuff trump says? they said, we just crumple that up and throw it away. we're desperate for jobs. part of what i think is going on and what i need your help with on as well is that there's an empathy gap. i can understand my pain, but i can't understand their pain. they can understand their pain, they can't understand my pain. you've been a bridge builder for empathy. what are some of the things you do in conversation or in your life that let you bridge so well? >> well, what we were able to do on "60 minutes" is put people together in the room to hear. one of the things i asked that never made the air was what is

the one thing we can all agree on? i said, what is the thing that matters the most to everybody at this table? you know what everybody said? family in some form or another. we can all agree our families are important and we are a nation of families. that everybody belongs to somebody's family, and to be able to find the common ground. i mean, that is just the nature of who i am is to go in and to be a peacemaker and not a divider. >> well, the thing is, i'm curious because sometimes i wonder -- >> that's what you did in the piece. >> i tried. >> you didn't just try, you did it. >> i appreciate it. you did it every day. >> yes. >> when you were queen of everything -- [ laughter ] >> thank you for that. thank you for that. >> would your show be able to survive now? >> oh, sure.

>> even with all these pulls. listen, right now, i'm out here struggling. i'm one of the few -- i didn't say struggling. i said scruggling. i'm trying to do the bridge, but you get more clicks, followers, more buzz if you're divisive. how could you survive now? >> both sides would be represented. you'd have people saying things that you absolutely disagree with. then you'd have somebody else say something you can't even believe they said that, but you put them in the room, and as i said, you would find the common ground. you find that behind the facade of all your opinions and your beliefs, that at the heart of us, we all want the same thing. i want the same thing that you want. i know that whether you are republican or democrat or libertarian, whatever you call yourself, that underneath every body is this desire and need to be valued and to know what you say, what you think you want to

do in the world, your fullest expression of yourself, that that thing matters. i know that going in. >> love it. listen, we have so much more to talk about, and when we get back including involvement with the gun control fight. next, as we go to break, you know, i love hearing voices of people on the show. here's what you said. >> i love that part. >> this is what you sid to oprah. >> thank you so much for having the courage to say the things that need to be said. i appreciate you so much. >> as a pediatrician, i refer to her story often to let young women and little girls know that even if you grow up with hardship, to follow your dreams, and you can be successful. here's the story of green mountain coffee roasters sumatra reserve. let's go to sumatra. the coffee here is amazing. because the volcanic soil is amazing. so we give farmers like win more plants. to grow more delicious coffee. which helps provide for win's family. all, for a smoother tasting cup of coffee. green mountain coffee roasters.

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all right. we are back with the one and only oprah winfrey. on "the van jones show." >> how did that appeal to you, really? did you always want to have your own show? >> i always wanted to be able to make a difference. i didn't know if i could have a show. you're interviewing me. you're trying to trick me. they said you were going to do that, too. i have to ask you the questions. so listen -- [ laughter ] you are -- you're somebody -- i'm from tennessee. you grew up in the south. >> i just wanted to know, are you living the dream? >> right now, i'm living the dream. right here. >> no, yeah, i thought you were

living the dream with jay-z. >> well, people have come, like, yourself, and said, i want you to be able to put something positive out on the air and it's been beautiful. speaking of beautiful stuff, it must be beautiful to be a billionaire and famous. so i want to ask you a question. that was a segue. i have to ask this question. honestly, so you are now both rich and you're famous. i'm curious. most people are neither one and want to be both. if in the rest of your career, you could only be one, would you be able to deliver on your promise more through your wealth or through your global stance? >> oh. damn, that's a good one. >> i got it off the internet. >> that is really a good, thoughtful question. >> think about this. you got to live another 30 years, another third of your career left.

another third of your career left. which do you need to deliver on your career? >> honest to goodness, i think in order to actually do the stuff, money is important. i also think that the thing i hold the dearest and the reason why the noise about running for president moved me so humbly and deeply is because it means that you have somewhere in the work gained the people's trust. >> yes, you have. >> and there is nothing more important to mow than having the trust of the people and the audience. i mean, i recognize that it is the audience who came every day and watched, you know, from all over the world. >> generations. >> yes, that helped me to be who i am, so i think the -- >> renowned. >> the standings, the ability to be trusted in saying something, but, listen, don't play the billionaire thing small. don't play the b small.

it's a very big deal because it allows you to -- [ laughter ] it allows you to actually do the work. so instead of saying, gee, i'd like to help so many people and you should go out and help people. you can actually use that yourself. and i'm now at this stage of my career thinking about how to do that more poignantly and fruitfully. and now looking for ways that i can do that to create a level of sustainability within our communities that will go long beyond my lifetime. >> what would that look like? >> well, you know, i did a piece about "60 minutes" -- >> about trauma. >> that changed me immensely. because when i first opened my school, i started to notice from all of these brilliant young girls that i discovered in townships and villages throughout south africa that they were having reactions to

being brought to the school. >> negative reactions? >> some negative reactions, some, not all, and the doctor who i just interviewed last weekend said, they are suffering from ptsd, and people who have been raised in traumatic poverty, deprived situations come out with trauma they don't even know that they have. people don't understand, why don't you pay attention when you're in school? because you learned to disassociate, which disassociation is a good thing if you're a kid and somebody's yelling at you all the time. but when you're in a classroom where you have to pay attention, when it's uncomfortable, you disassociate. >> that is so important. >> i know i'm going to spend a lot of energy and time and money helping people who have gone through that, those kinds of circumstances. >> you know, no good deed goes unpunished though. >> yeah. >> you've been helpful to the school, the beautiful young women in south africa, and people in chicago say, we want

oprah's school. how do you process that? >> well, this is the thing. i have a very big life. and i accept that, jesus. thank you, baby jesus. i have a big life. >> that's going to be a meme, but go ahead. >> thank you, jesus! thank you so much. that means when things happen to me, things happen in big ways. good things happen. so all of my mistakes end up on cnn crawl when i do something wrong. you decide for yourself. when i started making money, i was one of the people who thought -- every time they ask me, i got to -- you go crazy. you have to look within yourself. what do you want to do? that's family members, because you get a lot of cousins. when you are on the "van jones show," all of a sudden you get cousins bothering you. so you decide for yourself. i have, you know, i've given away so much that people don't

know because most of the time you don't hear about the people i help, so people complain about what i did or didn't do, well, y'all don't know me. you don't know me. i do and god does. so i don't have any -- i have all of that very much in check. very much in check. [ applause ] >> one of -- >> you have no idea. i will just tell you this. for example, like, whenever there's a big hurricane or a big tragedy or something, what i like to do, and i literally did it, i find reporters to find people in the communities, and so during the hurricane in houston and there were many other places where i will just call up people, people in the shelter. and i find their number. hi, this is oprah. and i want to help you. and they go, oh! don't tell nobody. >> prince was like that, too.

you were inspired to help the kids who were fighting against the gun violence. because that's such a big issue, i want to give you a moment to talk about it. why were you so moved to help the young people at parkland? >> well, because it reminded me of many conversations i had with john lewis who is one of the freedom fighters. >> these young people in your mind could be the civil rights leaders of the -- >> it reminded me of enough. and the fact that they created a national march to say, enough, and what it takes to risk that on a national level is what i responded to. i wanted to be able to bring kids from all over the country who wouldn't be able to afford to get to the march. that's what i wanted to do. >> beautiful. well, look, oprah's sticking around, and next up -- >> ava duvernay! >> yes! we'll talk to her about the new movie "a wrinkle in time," and we'll take a break and all about hollywood when we get back. >> she's a prophet.

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♪ let's find your father. >> that was just a small clip from the new movie "a wrinkle in time." i want you to please welcome to "the van jones show," the visionary behind this film, groundbreaking producer ava duvernay. [ cheers and applause ] >> how are you doing? >> my sister friend. >> yea, yea. you're here. >> i'm here. hi. >> hi. >> you're a warrior of the light. >> that's nice. >> you're a big warrior. >> thank you.

i try. >> can i tell you i wanted to be her friend -- you don't have to ask anything. [ laughter ] >> nope, nope. >> can i just tell you, i wanted to be her friend, so i saw her movie "middle of nowhere" -- >> an early one. >> yes. so i don't like go around looking for friends. >> that's probably true. >> okay. so i wanted to be her friend. so i googled her. and i saw this picture in the glasses and the face. and i thought, wow, what a warm, engaging -- i'm going the be her friend. so i set out the be her friend. >> that's inspiring. >> and it worked. >> i know it's tough for you. >> incredible story, when i hear her say that, i can't even believe that. from a google picture. thank goodness i wore my glasses that day. >> the glasses. >> you know, ava, you could have really done anything. after "selma," then you did the thirteenth. why did you pick this project to be the next kind of ankher in the ava duvernay realm of work?

>> i fell in love with the story about the girl, meg, being a hero. i knew that she could fly, hop planets, save the universe. she's not a jedi or a superhero but a regular girl in a shirt and glasses. she could do things she thought she didn't have inside of her, do things she thought was impossible, and i relate to that. i didn't pick up a camera until i was 32 years old. a woman at that late age trying to make film. that's like dog years. very old. just cheating the impossible. i saw something in meg's story that connected with me. but then after "thirteen" i was tired of darkness. you know, it was a thousand hours of racist violence footage i had to look through, carve, and craft, and i just wanted to design flowers for two years, so i did. it was fun. i worked with friends and share a message of light. >> you mentioned one time,

oprah that you saw sidney portiere on television and it changed your life. what would an 11-year-old oprah winfrey have been like if she had seen this movie? >> i don't think it would have been possible. don't make me start crying here. the very thought, the idea there is an ava for them to see and, you know, i -- i've told this story before, but it's true. there were so few role models when i was coming up that every month i went to the store to get "seventeen" magazine. because my family was on welfare, my mother was on welfare. so i could never afford a subscription. i would only have the 50 cents. i would wait there. there was not a brown person ever in all the years that i was buying "seventeen" magazine. there was one white girl with brown hair and a round nose. her name was colleen corby.

and put those pictures on the war. >> representation. >> representation. >> closest you could get. >> close as i could get. >> years later, she was on my show, saying you were it to me, close to black as i could get, was a brunette with a round nose. >> i don't have to have spoilers on the movie, but i got to talk to you because this is the opening of the movie, you have this young brown skinned girl who is being trained not to bake cookies, not to play with dolls. but it looks like she's being trained to be the world's greatest scientist. like the opening of the movie. like, ava can roll the credits right now because just that image is going to just -- i mean, i never have seen in my life that image. how important was it to you to show her as a beautiful girl, but incredibly intellectually gifted prodigy? >> well, it was very important. but i don't think there's anything wrong with baking cookies and playing with dolls. we just need to have balance and we need to have options. >> yeah. >> that's the challenge. women put in a box. that's all you can do.

those things are great, and they require intellectual creativity, but in addition, you can also be a mathematician, astro physicist and a doctor and actually anything you want. that's the goal of the story. >> yes, beautiful. [ applause ] one more thing about this. i also think that this movie is subversive in a different way. you said already she's fighting evil but she's not throwing roundhouse kicks. she doesn't pull out a ray gun. she doesn't have a light saber. she figure out a way to fight based on the love she has for her brother, her father, herself. are you trying to change the way that -- expand the way heroism works in cinema? are you up to something? >> it's a movie for young people and people who are young at heart can still tap into that space where you have a hopeful heart. these are dark and divisive times. i was listening to you and i reach for my phone first thing in the morning and that sets the day off in a bad way if you look

at the wrong account and who tweeted in the middle of the night. she tells me not to do it, but what i learned from her is you can fight with light. for example, you know, when -- you know, when president trump was tweeting at her -- >> you called to tell me. >> i called to tell you. so? what are we going to do? >> i got my earrings on. don't make me take my earrings off. >> and she said, nothing. of course not. of course we don't do anything. i'm going to have a latte and walk around my garden. you know what i mean? >> i'm going to take my dogs out. >> it's just about where you put your energy. and so this film and a lot of what i'm trying to think of these days is you put your energy in places that are seeds that blossom into beautiful things instead of putting your energy into things that only drag you down. >> that's what i'm trying to tell you. >> would you want to maybe teach that to president trump?

in other words, you guys know each other. if, listen, seriously. hold on. you all are laughing. but hold on. >> what's he talking about? >> i've seen pictures. i've seen pictures. >> i have not spoken to president trump since he became president trump. last time i saw him was we were in a restaurant, i think, 2016, and, you know, that restaurant -- ralph lauren's restaurant. and there were a whole bunch of people at the restaurant. and he was at a table. and i was at a table. so when you say "know each other," okay. >> this is a serious question. i think about this because of this whole idea of light. if you had ten minutes with him, i mean, you are one of the few people that, listen, billionaire to billionaire, megastar to megastar and human being to human being. no camera. >> i only speak where i feel like i could be heard. i only speak if i feel i could be heard, all right? >> all right. [ applause ]

>> there you go. >> if all you were doing was making these amazing films or queen sugar is an amazing tv show. >> i like that. >> you hear the black women say, mm. >> season three, whoa. >> whoa, whoa. >> so listen, if that's all you're doing, that would be enough. but you've gone so far beyond that. you had only female directors for one of the seasons. >> all the seasons. >> all the seasons. only female director. only. and you're -- you said over and over, being the first is nothing if you're the last. you've been fighting. talk about this inclusion revolution you're helping to lead in hollywood. >> oh, i don't think i'm leading it. i think i'm a part of it. >> i think you are. i have to interrupt you. the word "inclusion" came from you. >> that's right. >> yes.

>> you were saying diversity. and i was saying let's say inclusion. and i saw you say, it's inclusion and it's inclusion. >> i love frances mcdormand. she's talking about this rider that's going on around hollywood. >> what was that? >> an idea that actors and producers and directors who really care about this idea of their being an inclusive clue, all kinds of people able to make movies, directors in front of the camera and crew members, like wonderful camera people here behind the cameras, we want those kind of people to look like the real world that the stars of the film put in their contracts, if you want me, you have to have an inclusive crew. >> that's awesome. >> so it's an inclusion rider in the contract. >> i'm noticing something. the me too movement started by a black woman. black lives matter, started by three black women. you have you guys sitting here.

alabama was one, that senate race won because of black women. did the black women have a meeting and say we're going to change? something's happening, am i wrong? >> no, it's in our bones. it's in our bones. [ applause ] >> beautiful. all right. now, listen, we are shining a spotlight on the forgotten voices of the me too movement. and the times up movement. when we get back, an issue important to all three of us. that's next on "the van jones show" when we come back. alice is living with metastatic breast cancer, which is breast cancer that has spread

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welcome back to "the van jones show." i'm here with oprah winfrey and ava did you varn anyway. one of the stars and directors of "the a wrinkle in time" in theaters right now. go out and see it. you know a woman named shaka. >> "writing my wrongs." >> did 17 years in prison, solitary confinement, mit, became a best selling author, says he learned from you, but what did you learn from him? >> learned you're not the biggest mistake you've ever

made. i learned that redemption is possible. i learned that within every single person is this desire to be seen and heard and valued for who you truly know yourself to be and who you know yourself to become. he taught me a lot about not judging people because i had the book on my desk. somebody said, you should interview this guy, and, oh, oh, so i was, like, what am i going to learn from him? this is a guy who murdered someone. and then i -- as i was packing up to leave chicago, i carried the book, and then ended up reading the book and was so moved by his story that he's become a friend of mine. an so it helped me to drop judgment. >> uh-huh. yeah. >> you see everybody differently because of his story. >> because of his story. and, ava, you made the documentary "the thirteenth" and shaka was in your documentary.

>> you were too. >> i was too. i appreciate that. >> you were in a lot. >> say a word about why you went into creating a documentary like that about prison. >> well, i wanted to create a primer. it's not about prison but, as you well know, it's about the criminal justice system and ways in which we call the prison industrial complex now is warped and formed and deformed as the decades have gone on. so in that documentary we spend a hundred minutes and go through a hundred years of american history and really help people understand that prison isn't just a place where bad people go. that at this time's much deeper than that. there's a system that needs to be kind of really looked at in all of its layers. there's not going to be one politician or one bill that fixes it. >> yeah, well, listen, i agree with you 100%. i want to show you something. i've been trying to figure out what's going on with women in our prison systems, and you'll be shocked when you see what i found. check it out. women are the fastest

women are the fastest growing population in the jails and prisons. america's home to only about 5% of the world's female population, but we house in our prison about 30% of all the women incarcerated in the world. from 1980-2014, the population of women behind bars went up by 700%, more than 82% of the women who are locked up are already victims of physical or sexual abuse, and when they get to prison, more trauma awaits. in one year, more than 13,000 women said they have been sexually victimized and that's just the reported cases in one year alone. and black women report the highest rates of abuse. several states are now dealing with major scandals including rampant sexual abuse of the inmates by the paid staff. and beyond the assaults, women suffer even more horrific humiliations. when women give birth behind

bars, it can be a nightmare. some women are forced to be shackled while having babies in the full view of male guards. some facilities even force women to be in solitary confinement just because they are pregnant. taxpayers have to pay about $52 billion a year every year to cover the cost of the prison rape of men and women behind bars, including compensation to the victims. fortunately, some lawmakers are standing up to do something about this. congress and a few states have introduced prison reform legislation specifically deal ing with the challenges of mothers and pregnant women in our prisons and jails. i'm working with a campaign called dignity for incarcerated women to get something done about it. you're trying to deal with tough stuff. race, gender, prisons and a lot of times when you raise issues like this, it becomes divisive. talk about how you have been

able to go into issues like this and actually create conversation. >> i think you're doing it. it's about sharing information. that's what we try to do in 2013. there's more to do. you're adding to it here. the me too movements and time's up movements are direct correlated to prison issues. when you look at individuals who have been sexually assaulted, before they even got to prison. so there is a cycle there. but also when we're looking at rights for women in prison, the shackling during pregnancy, the withholding of feminine hygiene products, the unsafe exposure to male populations and male staff are things run rampant. connecticut is a place on the map we're really looking at because there is some interesting things there in terms of their bill. but you saw. it was a handful of states. this should be across the board. it should be federal or it should be something that's standardized across the states.

i just find it's about talking about it and letting people have the information that it forward thinking people who believe in justice and dignity and that's a lot of people they know the information, they can take it and run with it. >> even just seeing that tape, i'm sure there are a lot of people watching that this is the first time that thoughts that ever occurred. it's information. because people aren't thinking about women in prisons. they are not -- they are thinking if they are behind bars, you deserve to be behind bars and whatever happened to you. the more you can talk about it and shine a light on it, that's how you do it. >> you're doing it. >> i keep looking in the monitor and seeing two beautiful sisters who love each other, who care about each other and challenge each other and lift each other up and that by itself is an important message. thank you for being such a beautiful example of sisterhood for this country. we're going to be right back with a few of our favorite things, when we get back. so, that goal you've been saving for,

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we are back with oprah and ava. let's talk about some of your favorite things. ava, i want to know from you who is your favorite person up next. who is coming? who is a rising star we should be looking out for. >> i have to think about

directors. there's a woman named cat cambler. victoria mahoney who just knocks your socks off. got to look for these women directors telling beautiful stories behind the camera. >> and give a round of applause for these two women. who is your favorite person coming up next? >> i did an interview with yara shahide recently. blew me away. she's amazing. and i remember when i did "the color purple", quincy jones said baby your future is so bright it burns my eyes. i look in her eyes and i see the same thing. i believe she will be president if she wants to. but i believe she can do anything she wants. that's someone you need to put your eye on. >> that's amazing. speaking of next, what is next for you? what is left for you to do on your bucket list? what's next for oprah? >> i actually never had a bucket list. >> because you got it all done? >> no, the reason i don't have a

bucket list and this is what you want to do, folks. wherever you're listening throughout the world. everybody comes to the planet with your own dream. you want to lean into what life's dream is for you. you have your dream for life, but life has a dream for you. that which create you'd, molded you, made you, made you possible here on planet earth has a dream for you. and by whatever name you call that, lean into the dream that has already been dreamed for you. that you don't have to dream no more. just lean into the dream. so i am leaning into the dream. and it will take me to the next level. >> it works for you, it works for me. i'm going to try it. >> lean into the dream. >> lean all over the white house. oprah winfrey and ahave a duvernay, i want to thank you

for being here. "a wrinkle in time" is in theaters now. take your daughter, take your son. if you don't have a daughter or son, just take yourself. i'm van jones. see you next time. they escaped famine and death in ireland to begin a new life in boston, massachusetts. a life of wealth, privilege and power. >> my fellow citizens of the world. >> from irish peasantry to american royalty, these are the kennedys. their relationships with each other have impacted both america and the world.