president trump taking on robert mueller. i'm brian settler and this is "reliable sources," our weekly look at the story behind the story about how the news gets made. there is breaking news involving the mueller probe. president trump's allies in the media have spent almost a year trying to discredit this probe. they have been acting like there is something to hide, but the lawyers have all preached cooperation up until now. they are saying he is cooperate asking going along with it, et cetera. this weekend, that has changed. they are saying the investigation seems illegitimate. one of trump's lawyers says he is praying that the investigation gets shut down, and trump himself is tweeting mueller's name for the very first time ever saying the mueller probe should have never started at all. the president says there was no crime even though people have already pled guilty. he also says the special counsel's office is stacked

against him. it feels like we're inching closer to the edge of a cliff. imagine two trains on two parallel tracks because right now, i see two very different stories depending on what outlet you're reading and watching. first, let's look at the pro trump media side. they started the week by cheering the house republican statement that they found no evidence of collusion. the investigators didn't interview key witnesses. never mind that pesky fact, this was celebration mode, and then came the news that an internal watchdog said that they thought andrew mccabe should be fired instead of being allowed to retire quietly. they have been lobbying this for months. >> this guy, mccabe, needs to be taken out in cuffs. they should not be paid by the american people. >> mccabe is corrupt and he is as crooked as they come. he is one of the deep state actors we have been telling you about. >> on friday night, ag jeff

sessions followed through delivering a win to the hannitys of the world, giving trump and his fans a huge victory. trump cited this as proof of lies and corruption inside the fbi, and continued down this track i'm describing and said the mueller probe never should have started. that's one track. picture that track. now picture a parallel track where there is no cherry. on monday, stories about the house ending its investigation also pointed out that the mueller probe keeps expanding. on tuesday, a new book came out titled "russian roulette," and it became the best selling author in the country. the co-author says this. >> i think trump as we say in the book, aided and abetted the russian attack on american democracy by helping them sort of cover up and confusing the picture about it. >> on thursday, "the new york times" broke the news that mueller has subpoenaed trump's businesses, the trump organization. now according to "the times,"

trump was angry about this revelation, and he weighed in for the first time directly about mueller saying the probe shouldn't have started, saying he escalated his attacks against the law enforcement community. these are two parallel track, two different narratives about what's going on in america right now. let's talk about the consequences potentially of all this. jeff greenfield is here, a long-time political analyst, and we have the former anchor for "fusion." i want to try to chew through these dueling narratives we're seeing, jeff, about the mueller probe. it seems to me trump's allies are cheering for the president saying the probe shouldn't have started and yet i'm seeing a lot of concern from establishment types that the firing of bob mueller could be back on the table and that could be dangerous for democracy. >> this is groundhog day. >> why? >> because for a year, we have been basing -- we have been

talking about the same thing. people alleging serious issues involving the trump campaign and the trump presidential behavior and trumps allies say, whatever you hear from these sources is fake and is therefore not to be blo believed. you could play a tape of me for the last four times i have been on. barry mccaffrey, pretty much conservative said this president is a serious threat to national security. now in other times, that would have been a shocker, but once again, you're getting the situation where the trump supporters say, i don't care. we don't believe it. he is corrupt, and he is deep state. and the last part of groundhog day is until and unless the people who control the congress actually find that trump has crossed a line, that they will hold him accountable for, i don't believe any of this makes much difference. >> i want to jump on that last point because that's where it becomes the responsibility of journalists to start asking congressional republicans what that tipping point is, where the

red line is, when they will be willing to call trump out. they aren't willing to do that because they have midterms coming up, but as you have the chaos play out, both the turnover and the whiteout, and you have the president saying one thing on immigration reform coming out, and saying something different. 800,000 young people's lives thrown into chaos over that. whether you see the dow dropping 200 points, and there are so many reasons that the american public can look at this and say, is this chaos something i am willing to reckon with in my own life? the more americans begin to process, that the greater likelihood you see of people questioning the president. >> you look at the tweets about mueller and mccabe and the fbi. it's just rage tweeting, right? he is just angry. on the other hand, he is the president of the united states taking out his anger on the law enforcement community, and i know with jeff zeleny said a couple of hours ago, he said,

hey. does president trump know something that we don't? coming down the pike we don't know about? the tweet storm he says, attacking the investigators seems to be a sign of something brewing. >> i think we have seen this kind of behavior almost from the beginning, in fact, before he was ever elected. i mean, in a sense, when you go all the way back to the campaign and trump was saying, if i lose it's because it's rigged. you have an absolute consistent behavior and what i think has so far worked for him is that for all of this behavior, once again, the people who have the -- only the people who have the power to hold him to account for this are not doing it. i don't know how many times i have heard speaker ryan say about one trump behavior, and although this is troubling, i'm concerned. >> right. >> but the argument that the president has been making since before he was the president, whatever you hear about me, that is critical by definition is false because thee people are

lying. what he did in his tweets this morning? >> about memos. this is about mccabe having memos like comey, and trump says, can we call them fake memos? >> and a very respectful website has said there might be reasons why the firing of the deputy director was justified. these were career officials who made that choice. and so it's very important i think for us as journalists to try to separate what is just angry and false tweeting from issues that might be more serious. >> journalists can also sit here until we're blue in the face saying this is troubling, concerning, seems dangerous and yet the real power lies with republicans in congress to be a check on the president. i think that's where this conversation comes back to. what are we hearing from those people in power? >> if you have a media market where people believe there is real news and fake fnews, you need an established messenger to breakthrough that dichotomy. today, you had senator marco rubio on "this week" with george

stephanopoulos, and he said he has faith it will be carried out. those are the types of questions that need to continue to be asked, and i think that, you know, we will see more of those questions in the next few weeks. >> and jeff flake on "state of the union" which comes up again in an hour, he says, i hope he doesn't work to fire mueller. it just can't happen. one of the unintended consequences of president trump's focus on the fbi and mccabe and firing director james comey, is it seems to be helping his book sales. this is comey's book that comes out in a month, and it's number two on amazon even though it's still not out. this has a lot to do with the president's tweet yesterday. comey responded to the president by saying, the american people will hear my story very soon and they can judge for themselves who is honorable and who is not. comey's book, number two on amazon and four on barnes & noble. the anger at michael wolff

helped sell copies of his book. >> his book is unprecedented. might have sold as many as a million copies, but 61 people voted for donald trump, and the question to be asked is, is any of what you are describing not only going to move the republicans in congress, but will it move the people who voted for him and find him their hero? you know, possibly the most accurate thing the president has ever said is the famous line that i can go out in 5th avenue and shoot somebody, and it wouldn't change my ratingrating at times, i think he is trying to semi-test that theory. what could trump do that would make his base say, ugh. maybe not. >> divide in the media are partly just a symptom of a greater divide in the country, and profound partnership we're suffering from. >> yeah. >> let's take a break here. come back with carl bernstein,

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welcome back to "reliable sources." president trump's tweets against robert mueller, the first time he has mentioned his name on twitter, raises questions on what's to come, whether there is an attempt to stop the investigation into the russian interference in the election, and all the possibilities that come from that, including obstruction of justice. let's hear from carl bernstein on this. he has been out in front reporting on this topic for more than a year, and he joins me now from l.a. carl, what is your reaction to the president saying the mueller probe never should have started in the first place? >> he said that all along, and he is determined to shut it down. those closest to him will tell you it's hard for him to stop his rages, especially in the last couple of weeks about mueller and they say to me and others that he is determined to shut this investigation down. he hasn't quite figured out how to do it, but he is determined

to do it. and the real question here is whether the rule of law and the avo avoidance of a constitutional crisis which we're really approaching here because he is saying essentially he is not going to be held accountable to the law, that the law does not apply to him, that this investigation is in itself illegal. and he believes as jeff greenfield has just said, that he can convince his base and a lot of the republican party, that he doesn't have to be held accountable because they will be convinced as well that this is a witch hunt, and, in fact, it's anything but, and one of the reasons we're seeing what we are right now is the president, according to those around him, has expressed the belief or certainly the attitude that he thinks this investigation is closing in on him, on his family and on his businesses. and there is real evidence,

circumstantial that this is the case, and certainly lawyers involved in this for other defendants believe that is the case, and also that a set of indictments is just over the horizon. now high or -- >> how do you know that? you say a set of indictments is on the way? >> it's on the horizon. yes. certainly other lawyers involved in this belief that a new set of indictments is if not imminent, very close, but we don't know for sure that's going to happen, and you have to wait until something is filed with the court, but certainly the belief around the president in the white house, those who talk to him, is that he is expressing the attitude that he needs to shut this thing down, he hasn't tried to figure out the way to do it yet, except to appeal to this base because we are in this country as jeff's comments indicated, in the midst of a cold civil war, a cultural cold

civil war, and it predates donald trump, but he has exploited it brilliantly and takes advantage of it, and the other thing that's involved here, and i'll let you ask another question and stop talking here in a second the this is very much about lying that one of the things we have seen even with the prime minister of canada in the last week is the compulsive or endemic lying by the president of the united states, and he says there is no collusion, and nothing here. we have from the record, and you can say this journalistically, as a fact whether you're on fox, cnn, msnbc, it doesn't matter. the fact is this president lies and why do we have any reason to believe that he is not lying about the russia investigation and what's underneath it? we have less reason to believe than we do the witnesses, the

journalists and the evidence that we have seen so far. it doesn't mean that there is evidence yet that we have seen of twinstidefinitive collusion, mueller i believe we can say is trying to build a vast narrative of trump, his business and his political aspirations in dealing with the russians from the beginning, getting money from people who are russians, ethno-russians and all the people sit together. >> i could listen to you all day, carl. but you brought on lies. let's go through the lies. i made a list of these. there are different kinds of lies, right? the rnc's talking point for example, i got ahold of the talking points. let me put it on screen. it says despite the media's intrigue, there is no chaos in the trump administration. that's not true, but that's a silly lie, that spin. >> let's stop you there. >> there are serious consequences there. look at the ice official in san

francisco who had enough. he resigned. this is an ice spokesman who said he couldn't take it anymore and couldn't spread falsehoods for the administration and as you mentioned, trump himself saying to fundraisers that, yeah. he made up some facts with the canadian prime minister. there were all these different kinds of fibs or falsehoods we have seen, but some have real consequences. >> the lying by the president of the united states is what's important, not by the rnc being craven and backing him up because that is the big question here. are republicans as happened during watergate, going to have some spine and not be craven and say, look. we believe in the rueful le of . we spot this president and his policies, but we want to know what happened here. if indeed the mueller investigation is what donald trump says it is, which is a fake and a witch hunt and all the rest, there will be plenty

of time after his investigation is finished if he is allowed to complete the investigation, to find everything that he did, mueller, that is underhanded, illegal, a witch hunt. i don't think that's going to happen from everything we know about mueller and he is a straight shooter as we know. he is a republican. he plays it by the book, but there is every opportunity and republicans ought to rally around this and say, look. let this investigation go forward. if there is malfeasance, we will find out about it after we find out the facts about russia, about donald trump, about his family, about his business organization. let's get the facts, but if there has been mall ffeasance b the investigators, those investigators ought to go to jail, and they ought to be -- there ought to be a legal procedure to deal with, with any malfeasance or misfeasance, real, but not simple errors that

are made. you do that after the fact, and what we have seen today so far from senator graham and from others and perhaps hopefully the beginning of republicans saying, yes. there is a line we will not cross about the rule of law, the rule of law shall prevail here. we'll find out the facts, we'll deal with the investigators later, but in this cultural civil war, in this cold civil war, there is real question as jeff greenfield has said today, of whether or not it's possible for a legitimate investigation to prevail as opposed to an authoritarian president appealing to a base that has the republican party so far, held hostage. >> what is the role of the press as you see it in this difficult moment? >> to say repritori or treptori

difficult because when you say -- the president of the united states lies and lies repeatedly, that's very difficult to listen to, particularly if you are a supporter of the president and at the same time, it is a demonstrable fact that everyone has to deal with here, and it's true of this whole story. but i think that the less we show ourselves as provocative, if we can keep our tone to being as reptorial as we can and at the same time, be strict in terms of pointing out what we know, what is fact, what is speculation, we have seen in the last year, the greatest reporting on the presidency of the united states by a great number of news organizations that we have seen in the last 50, 60 years in this country. by "the new york times," by "the washington post," by "the wall street journal" whose owner,

rupert murdoch is a supporter of the president. by some right wing outlets as well, and part of the conservative movement that has opposed this president's lying with legal procedure. you look at what bill krystle has said, and not all of them by any means support this president's floundering the rule of law, and we ask whether the rule of law, the constitution of the united states, the legitimacy of the republican party has an institution that believes in the principles that we have held dear in this country for years, and established in watergate again established by the supreme court and by republicans in congress who were brave enough to take on the president of the united

states when he said he was above the law. that's where we are right now, and we are at a moment that is crucial in the history of this country because it is clear that donald trump wants to bury this investigation. >> carl bernstein, thank you for the assessment. after our break here, how the president's legal team is injecting into your life, a different scandal. here's her "60 minutes" interview airing and when, we have the answer right after which. . whi.. . . t. h. i. this.

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are the people who talk about policy on tv equipped to actually make policy? with gary cohn out, and kudlow in, the headlines are gaining a lot of attention and scrutiny, but there is the host of "fox and friends" who has been promoted to the trade department, and there was another tributer in the white house press shop. kudlow is just the latest going from cnbc now taking over the national economic counsel. you have the hires from tv, where he uses tv as job auditions and all of these folks from rupert murdoch on down were said to give advice to the president in phone calls after the show. let's talk more about it with alicia menendez, and we have

jeff greenfield. the latest talk, alicia is about the "fox and friends" weekend host, maybe taking over the va. he led a vets group, but doesn't have the traditional experience you would expect. am i old fashioned? >> it is a 400-thousand person operation, so not having that type of management experience, and health care experience you would hope he would have the right team around him if this actually comes the fruition. >> right. >> it's not really surprising that the president would look to cable news to hire members of his team. there is already history of him doing it and in some ways, it creates the positive feedback loop. if you love fox news, then his hiring from fox news validates their credibility and it validates the president's great taste, right? it works both ways. i think what it might caper over though is a question about whether or not people who are undeniably credentialed to take

these jobs, want these jobs, are willing to put their credibility on the line to join an administration that has seen the level of turnover and chaos this administration has seen. >> speaking as a future director of nasa, i do find that somewhat odd. i have no problem with going outside traditional sources of employment. there are times when that's actually a good idea. there are times when bringing in people with a fresh face may not actually with mired in the past, is a good idea. when you look at mr. kudlow who, you know, back in 2007, poo-pooed the whole idea, and said the housing market would be in great shape. it's important to look at the credentials that the president is reaching out for, but let's remember. trump is supposedly to have said, he perceives life as a tv show where he wins and somebody

else loses. if your perception is a tv show, in some perverse way, this makes sense. >> let's turn to a tv soap opera with consequences. let's show the cover of "the new yorker," and it's going to raise a lot of eyebrows i think. this showing president trump exposed. i think that story is the nexus of the president, the press, a porn star, and it does seem like stormy daniels' lawyer has been incredibly media savvy. we know he arranged an interview with anderson cooper and it will air on "60 minutes," working for cnn and cbs, and the lawyer has been taped and out there for tv, except for fox, talking about the interview, teasing the interview, describing the interview. what we don't know officially from cbs and when the interview will air. it will air this time next week, next sunday on "60 minutes." i wonder if stormy daniels and

her lawyer are beating president trump at his own game like the organization has met his match with someone with pr south america -- savvy. >> they have pushed this story. did the president have an affair with this woman while his wife was just, you know, a new mother, to the level of, well, was the president's lawyer paying $130,000 out of his own money to keep her quiet about something that never happened? it's raised the stakes, but i keep coming back -- i guess i'm beating a dead horse, so this. who will this affect? if trump supporters were able to get past the "access hollywood" tape, and the accusations of multiple women of him behaving as a predator, that's like swallowing a camel. in context, i'm not sure this is going to make any difference unless it raises particular

legal questions about campaign finance law and it also tells us by the way, how things have changed. a few years ago, 70% something of people said they had morally high standards. those fell to 20% because their champion is donald trump. >> his base may not care, but i don't think the president or his wife wants to see stormy daniels on national television. i think think that has consequences. >> you have her attorney out there telling cable news -- woo skpel s and we'll see if this comes up. she has been physically threatened by people in the trump organization. it widens the circle of what it is we're talking about. it's no longer about just whether or not there was extramarital affair, but this might bring in mueller's team, if that's something they are

interested in i thibringing int scope of their investigation, and it's about suppressing information and people's ability to tell their own version of the story. >> right. silencing someone, and despite trump's newest move in court, it's been taped and supposed to air this time next week. >> the one thing worth saying is the idea that trump's people were going to try to somehow block cbs from airing this interview, this is an instinct that the president has had long before he got into politics. threatening lawsuits, threatening libel suits and the suits never seem to evolve into actual reality, but it tells you something about a president, i think, a personality for whom disturbing and unsettling and bad news by definition can't be true, which is why i always thought, the person lies at all. he believes it, no matter how much the evidence says no. who are you going to believe?

me or your eyes? >> that's interesting. thank you for being here. after a quick break here, leading conservative editor of if the the daily wire," ben shapiro joins me after this. but mania, such as unusual changes in your mood, activity or energy levels, can leave you on shaky ground. help take control by asking about your treatment options. vraylar is approved for the acute treatment of manic or mixed episodes of bipolar i disorder in adults. clinical studies showed that vraylar reduced overall manic symptoms. vraylar should not be used in elderly patients with dementia due to increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, which may mean a life-threatening reaction, or uncontrollable muscle movements, which may be permanent. side effects may not appear for several weeks. high cholesterol and weight gain; high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death; decreased white blood cells, which can be fatal;

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lot of calls on social media and on tv that this is not normal. none of this is normal and yet some conservative media critics say that all of those -- all that commentary, and people pointing that out are actually undermining the media's own credibility. let's talk about media credibility in this unique moment in time request ben shapiro. he is the editor in chief of "the daily wire". >> you have said the media shouldn't say how unnormal these circumstances are. why is that? >> this was not particularly normal, so it's hard for me to argue the media should say the president is acting in nonnormal fashion, but with that said, because the media has said not normal for so long, for over a year, two years at this point, it becomes the boy who cried wolf. even if it is not normal, you say the media is spouting off after two years of saying everything the man does isn't normal. >> isn't that partly because

there has been a decade-long movement on the right to discredit the movement? well before president trump came along? >> it would be surprised if it was just a decade. >> decades long. >> on the right for as long as i have been alive, there has been a lot of questions about media objectivity, and i don't think those questions are ill-founded. i think this is why as i have been saying, it's really incumbent on the media to leave a lot of the hyperbole out of it, and that's difficult and the hyperbole seems to get ratings and jog people's amig da las, but the more the media underplays, the better they will do in people trusting them because at this time, what's happening right now is everybody is breaking down to travel affinity. president trump says fake news, and everyone says, if the president says it, they are biased and why wouldn't they be biased here as well? they boempend over backwards to prove they aren't biased,

especially in the russia investigation. i think what the president did was not normal. if the president were to fire mueller, it would precipitate devastating consequences for the public. but i think the firing of mccabe on friday, that was recommended by opr, and what is out of bounds is the president talking about firing mueller. >> where do you see the most egregious media bias right now? >> well, over the last three weeks, obviously the coverage of the gun debate, and i don't want to single out your network, but cnn has been pretty besiad abou this, when there is a mass shooting, the media feel the necessity to put on tv, specific survivors. there is a certain subset of survivors who make it on tv a lot, and certain survivors who don't, and they single out certain events and other events to allow people to go on tv, and

suggest that people of the nra don't care, and they are terrorists, and people of the media are using this as an opportunity to push gun control rather than covering the legislative efforts that are going on in washington, d.c. >> your view is 50/50 even if most of the students are urging gun control measures? >> 80/20 would be fine. anything but 95/5 would be a good thing, and it's also pretty obvious that -- listen. everybody in journalism has their own political views and we all vote obviously, or at least most of us do, and it's not a pleasant thing when people in the media act like their political views don't influence their coverage, but they do. >> do you want fewer gun death? that's not political. >> it's not political to want less gun death. it's political to allow people

on tv, and say their political enemies don't care. cnn got very upset when dana lash said -- >> cnn doesn't get upset. anchors or reporters may challenge something. that's not a network-wide thing. >> but reporters need to challenge. i need -- again, the reporters are the representatives of the network. when i tune in there is a reporter on cnn and the cnn insignia is in the bottom corner and there is nothing i can do by say, cnn may have a bias here, especially if that bias all runs in one direction. it's not like members of the cnn are pushing one agenda. if there is a bias it is universally to one side, and that's what people on the right are seeing. >> the agenda of being pushed is gun control by interviewing students who are scared to go back to school. is that how you perceive it? >> the agenda being pushed is gun control if there is no pushback on questions asked to other guests. that doesn't confer for expertise.

>> you are very popular, ben. do you want to grab that? >> exactly. >> it happens to all of us. >> sorry about that. >> your website, "the daily wire," and a lot of other conservative media, i worry you're trying to tear things down a opposed to make things better. it's one thing to kree tecritiq sometimes i feel like you're trying to get rid of journalism. >> if you can point out where the critique is wrong. if it is invalid, that's another. so i think if you don't like the motive, then ignore the motive and take the critique in so far it's effective. but listen. i don't want cnn to disappear or "the new york times" or "the washington post" to disappear. i want them to do what they are saying, and project journalism and opinion journalism if they want to say they are opinion joum journalists. that's fine. but "the new york times" is far

less than my critique of op-ed, and cnn purports to be objective and msnbc does not purport in the same way. >> maybe you should get jobs at the "new york times," and try to be apart of the solution. >> would you hire me? i really doubt that, and it no only that -- >> yes for many months. i wanted you as a guest for many months. your profile has been blowing up. there was talk about you maybe taking over "the blaze," and tell me if that's true. >> all i can say is we're all looking for opportunities to grow, and we are very much fans of what glenn does, and any opportunity we have to work with him, and other folks, we're happy to take. >> interesting. interesting tease. great to see you. thanks for coming on the program. >> thanks so much. after the break here, fox

news and info wars are boat being sued, totally separate sla lawsuits, but both involving conspiracy theorietheories. we'll talk about info wars right after this. at a comfort inn with a glow taround them, so people watching will be like, "wow, maybe i'll glow too if i book direct at choicehotels.com."

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slain dnc staffer seth rich has been the subject of twisted conspiracy theories. at one point fox news promoted a story connecting rich's unsolved myrrh dwer to wikileaks and the election. the story was featured strongly on sean hannity's program and later retracted and pulled off the fox news website. now his parents are suing fox. >> i want the people who started the lies, who are responsible for the lies held accountable. this has got to stop. we lost his body the first time, and the second time we lost his soul. they took more from us with the

lies. >> there was another lawsuit this week targeting people that promote conspiracy theories. it involves info wars and the host of info wars alex jones. already info wars is at risk of losing its youtube channel. now the lawsuit is trying to take jones and info wars and others to court saying they're responsible for promoting hoaxes that actually are defamatory toward the people involved. let's talk about this lawsuit with brennan gilmore, the plaintiff in the case. he says he was a target of jones's conspiracy theories, also joined by his lawyer. i appreciate you both for being here. brennan, i don't have much time. tell me what the case is, what you say was defamatory in all the talk about you on info wars? >> well, the defamatory statements were legion and they were very egregious.

people said i was a cia asset and helped orchestrate the violence we saw in charlottesville last august. they took my service and twisted it into a long story of lies that had me culpable for what we saw last year in charlottesville. >> so you're challenging jones and a number of other people in court. andrew, there are obviously strong protections for media organizations, even ones that are revolting like info wars. how do you expect to win? >> i think the case for defamation is strong. alex jones and these people sort of feel like they have impunity to say whatever they want and hide behind the first amendment and claim that any challenge to the lies that they spread are protected speech. we think the fourth amendment

does not protect speech that is demonstrably false, in many ways ruined brennan's life. it's incited violence and harassment against him. we think the case is clear. >> brennan, jones loves to use clips from this show. if he's watching, what do you want him to know? >> we'll have the court process to go over the claims he made against me, and we'll show in court they're all baseless. i think i'm looking forward to that process because there are laws that we believe govern responsible journalism and they do not abide by them. don't abide by journalistic ethics and the legal code. >> you're using the court process to challenge conspiracy theories. it's interesting. i'm up against a hard break.

we will try to keep an eye on your case and we thank you both for being here. we'll see you back here on "reliable sources" this time next week. whoooo. looking for a hotel that fits... ...your budget? tripadvisor now searches over... ...200 sites to find you the... ...hotel you want at the lowest price. grazi, gino! find a price that fits. tripadvisor. a hilton getaway means you get more because you get a break on breakfast get an extra day by the pool get to spend more time together

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