wrong, his up is down. cnn, new york. >> oh, all right. thanks for joining us. and don't feorget, you can watc "outfront" any time you want. just go to cnn go. ac 360 with anderson cooper begins right now. >> good evening, two new developments in the russia probe. links to or connections with russians. a new court filing from the special council says the deputy campaign council regates. so that is one story tonight. and the other goes straight to the question did the president through his personal attorney by offering only what a president can deliver, namely pardons.

the story broke in "the new york times," the headlines. here are two key passages from the reporting. quote, the discussions came as the special counsel was building cases against both men and raising questions about whether the lawyer dowd was offering pardons. the report continues, quote, the talks suggest that mr. trump's lawyers were concerned about what mr. flynn and mr. manafort might reveal were they to cut a deal. the washington post has more of a time frame. and what else was dowd doing right about that time? keeping him honest, he was denying what he was doing what the times and the post reported he was doing. take a look at cnn's coverage from july 20th of last year.

>> taking a look at issues related to pardoning potentially his aides and family members if necessary. even inquired about the ability to pardon himself. the president's lawyers called that reporting nonsense. >> now at the time the post reporting did not mention floating the prospect of pardons. quote, there is nothing going on on pardons, research, nothing, not happening, never has happened. nothing going on on pardons. now the times and post reporting bears out that denial, would not be true which may be why today's press secretary sarah sanders is careful about saying pardons in the present tense.

>> in the report that you are asking about, with which he said only about asked about pardons by the press and have routinely responded on the record that no pardons are under discussion or under discussion. >> can you say unequivocally that no one has discussed pardons. >> he has a statement that there is no discussion and no consideration of those at this time in the white house. >> the question was, that no on has discussed pardons in this case. and sarah sanders answered there is no discussion and no consideration. does the lady present tense too much. you can decide for yourself. >> for specific details on any search process outside of the white house, i would refer you to his outside counsel.

outside of the white house, i would refer you to jay. i would refer you to the president's outside counsel and his attorney. once again, i would refer you to the president's outside counsel. i would refer you back to the statement from tye cobb. i am not going to get into a hypothetical question and referring to michael compahen o that matter. >> perspective now. can you walk us through your understandings of how these pardon conversations came about. >> the president's lawyer last year, at the time john dowd reached out to two different lawyers for paul manafort and michael flynn. this happened middle of last year before first of all, michael flynn accepted a plea

agreement with bob mueller and before paul manafort was indicted. the exact substance of the the subject of pardons was broached. but we don't know how much they were made as an offer of both witnesses in the investigation perhaps not cutting a deal with mueller. >> and that is critical in terms of the meaning of this whethert. if you don't cooperate, the president will give you a pardon. >> that's right and at the very least it shows that there was concern in the white house and concern within president trump's legal team about what manafort and flynn might tell mueller if they were to cooperate with the special counsel. there seemed to be concern that mueller at this time of course was building cases against both flynn and manafort and if the

two were to flip and cooperate, there seems to be concern about the white house about what they have to say about the president and the president's advisor. >> questions about pardons have come up during interviews with the special counsel's investigators. >> that's right. witness interviews in the last several months, mueller's investigators have asked about various conversations in the white house about pardons. we reported president trump raised the issue sometime last year during which he asked about his pardon powers. what authority does he have to pardon. this a topic of conversation and it clearly is something that mueller's team is at least asking about with other witnesses. >> correct me if i am wrong but i believe i read in your other article that dowd later expressed surprise that flynn had accepted a plea deal, is

that correct? >> he believed to have thought the case against flynn was flimsy and he didn't need to do a plea deal because there wasn't a good case. other conversations dowd has had with other people where he expressed that. >> they are pushing back on your reporting, despite, that you still stand by it. >> absolutely. we are confident in our reporting. >> thank you. there is that. it broke last night in the form of a court filing. a sentencing memorandum concerning another cooperating witness. they connected gates to a person with ties to russian intelligence service and they alleged this connection continues while gates works as deputy campaign chairman. and that this what was quote pertinent to the investigation.

joining me now, gloria borger, carl bernstein. i know you have been talking to sources particularly about dowd and who is the center of this new reporting. >> there is a great deal of consternation by the people who were left on the president's legal team about john dowd without talking about mark's reporting, they were upset at the way he left the legal team. some of them raised the question with me whether it was unethical whether he put the president in legal jeopardy by quitting the way he did so publicly. and now of course they are on a search to try to replace him and get another attorney or two in there and they are having a great deal of difficulty doing

that. they say there is no rush. we can do this any time. but clearly they understand and you know, as one source said to me, we understand particularly if the democrats win the house, we need to have somebody who may have some familiarity with impeachment for example and other constitutional issues. and so, you know, they are angry at dowd and have to figure out how to replace him and in the meantime proceeding to deal with mueller. >> michael flynn sought a plea deal. >> or, manafort maybe thinks he will be pardoned. we know president trump has presided over a cover up of all things russian for more than a year now.

the question is is it a criminal cover up as was nixon's in watergate. and these developments make it look more and more definitive that it is a criminal cover up by the standards of most legal experts. we don't know that for sure and we are tying together both the question of the president's actions in relations to promising things that will in fact impede and obstruct mueller's investigation and also we are seeing in the gate's developments which also affect manafort because they were business partners and the russian intelligence agent alleged worked for both manafort and gates. and we are beginning to see the outlines perhaps of a real quote collusion case with the trump campaign and members of the

trump onnentourage. and why donald trump is so determined to preside over this cover up and probably criminal cover up at that. >> they don't have anything with president trump communicating with dowd. if they did take place, he was aware of them or directed him to or john dowd directed the president to this. nor is there reporting on the actual words used in the conversation. and in the conversation, that the words used matter tremendously. >> they do matter a lot of i want to go back to what i call a lot of what carl said but let me go back to more fundamentals, we have a situation where the president's personal attorney who is in the spotlight, not his

legal team in the white house. the president clearly went outside the normal channels that you would normally work through your legal counsel if you wanted to have legal -- dowd said he never talked to these people. here the new yo"the new york ti lang and they have to t two major news organizations both confident enough to run the story. heavily suggests that dowd has been lying about this all along. this comes around the time where you may remember the sheriff joe arp payo in arizona. if you hang tough, i am willing to use my pardon power. and i think we are seeing a lot of that here. i disagree with carl on one

point and that is that lawyers seem to be divided about whether the president would be doing something illegal by dangling a pardon. there is some who say that he has full powers and he can do whatever he wants with the pardon powers and others say it would be illegal. but just because something is legal does not mean it is right. and it is not right to be dangling pardons in a really sensitive case unless you have something to cover up. >> we are going to be talking about professor dershowitz from harvard on that exact matter. >> we don't know if dowd was freelancing or whether he was doing it at the urging of the president. we know in the past he has done things at the urging of the president but we don't know whether he did that, you know, in this particular case and i think that is also quite

relevant. >> what is interesting about that, is this is not a situation where he would have attorney client privilege because it is not a conversation with the president himself. no privilege between, you know, attorney john dowd and the attorney for manafort or attorney for gates. and he would know that going in this is not a privilege conversation. >> i don't think there is any question, if i can interject, that mueller is now in a position to call john dowd into his shop and question him extensively. and yes, the president of the united states has almost absolute powers to pardon and can do it perfectly legally. it is not clear that the president of the united states can quote dangle pardons in front of someone as a means of obstructing legitimate inquiry. and that appears to be what is happening here. whether the words floated were

exact used in this meeting. if this indeed happened the way the times and post described it, has a means of speaking that suggests certain things and p s perhaps keeps him on the legal side of the line. but little question that he dangled these pardons and part of a larger cover up directed by the president of the united states. >> and in the case of manafort and the case of flynn, the president's attorneys were out there publicly saying this has nothing to do with the president. these are separate issues and flynn has nothing to do with the president, manafort's business had nothing to do with the president. so at the same time this may have been occurring, they were distancing themselves publicly. >> and if the question is whether dowd acted at the behest of the president, we don't have to debate that.

it is clear that he would not act without the president's blessing. >> one quick point. >> we will come back to you. thank you very much. next two legal heavy waits jeff toobin and professor dershowitz. we will also bring you the latest in the wake of a deadly police shooting of a man in the backyard of his grandmother's yard. ways to lose stubborn belly fat. the roasted core wrap. 3, 2, 1... not cool. freezing away fat cells with coolsculpting? now that's cool! coolsculpting safely freezes and removes fat cells with little or no downtime. and no surgery. results and patient experience may vary.

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a. with the white house parsing its words, we wanted to dig deeper now on the question of what significant this might have. if it the reporting turns out to be true and it turns out some kind of offer was dangled what are the consequences. >> jeff, the fact that the present is in the present tense, sarah sanders referred to that statement, how big a deal is this? >> it is potentially a big deal but it is important that we put the times story in perspective.

there is nothing unlawful about a lawyer discussing pardons. that is the power of the presidency. where there could be trouble is if there was some sort of promise implied or given to witnesses in the mueller investigation that if you don't cooperate you will get a pardon. >> professor dershowitz do you agree with that. >> i think there are two issues. george w. bush pardoned wi weinberger to stop the investigation. so the act of pardoning can't be a crime in my view. but if you negotiate a pardon in exchange for something of value, then you may very well have violated a criminal statute not by giving the pardon but

accepting or negotiating something of value. i can't imagine that sophisticated lawyers would ever have that kind of conversation. quid pro quo. it is inconceivable to me that sophisticated lawyers would have had that conversation. >> if that, professor, if it is impri imp implied that you don't cooperate, we give you the pardon, is that illegal? >> it really depends very much on how the conversation occurred if it occurred. the president doesn't have to offer a pardon. remember, manafort said he wouldn't accept the pardon. the president can pardon you whether you like it or not. so if the president wanted a pardon, he could easily just had pardoned. i don't understand why he would

have negotiated a pardon. if he gave a pardon then there would be no incentives for the folks on the other side to cooperate because there would be no leverage over them that would force them to cooperate. and so the story doesn't really ring true to an experienced criminal defense lawyer like me. >> jeff, if mueller wants to question dowd whether he floated pardons could dowd refuse to talk about. >> it depends the attorney/client privilege only covers with his client, donald trump. you know, i find myself in uncharacteristic agreement with most of what allen said. >> it's about time. >> but you know, you are taking a harder line. the idea that negotiating over a pardon to help your own legal

situation, that is problematic. where i disagree is the pardon itself i think could also be evidence of obstruction of justice. but, certainly, you know, using the pardon to try to get yourself out of legal trouble is i think problematic. but at least "the new york times" story so far doesn't suggest that he did that or doesn't have evidence that he did that. >> i am glad that you are changing your mind, previously you said the act of granting a pardon could be the act of obstruction of justice. now you are backing away from that. i stick to that position. saying the act of granting a pardon, any act in and of itself cannot forming the basis of a criminal charge. >> you just lost me there. >> well if i lost you, you are

not paying attention because what i said is clear. >> the core of obstruction of justice has always been did the president fire james comey in order to forestall, stop. >> and that doesn't matter. you see, it can't be a crime to fire jim comey no matter what the motive is, if on the other hand he did something illegal in the process of doing something, that would be different. you cannot commit a crime by engaging in a constitutional act. >> the world is full of crimes that take innocent or protected acts and make them criminal because of criminal intent. it is not criminal to sell stock. but it is criminal to sell stock with inside information.

>> bad analogy. >> we are talking about the president of the united states that has constitutional authority to hire and fire. >> before we end, the president is having trouble it seems to be getting a team of attorney. does that surprise you. oj simpson was able to get a range of smart attorneys representing him. does it surprise you that the president of the united states seems to be having issues. >> there is a lot of conflict of interest around washington. secondly, i am told he did not offer the job, offering the job to the man who walked president clinton into the perjury trap would be the worst possible judgment. there are conflicts, there are matters of whether you want to get somebody who is an outside, insider guy. it is not easy to assemble the

perfect team when you are trying to play good cop, bad cop. some of the people are very strong. dowd resigned and i don't know the reason for it. but i think the president will be well represented. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> well there is another possible legal problem for president trump. lawsuits alleged. coming up, another white house cabinet member is out. this time va secretary. how his replacement was chosen. dear foremothers, your society was led by a woman, who governed thousands... commanded armies... yielded to no one. when i found you in my dna, i learned where my strength comes from. my name is courtney mckinney, and this is my ancestrydna story.

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breaking news from the white house, president trump late tonight fired his secretary of veteran of affairs. and nominating ronnie jackson to replace it. in taking a great deal of fire lately, our chief white house correspondent jim acosta joins us. >> reporter: it sounds like the news was delivered by the chief of staff john kelly. but white house officials stressed to me that david shulkin was not fired by tweet. the president tweeted this announcement this afternoon. there were some big concerns inside this white house about that recent inspector general's report that criticized shulkin's

trip to europe last year. he spent a lot of time being a tourist over in europe and those distractions i am told by white house officials became too much. >> dr. ronnie jackson is the doctor who gave the update on the president's health. what exactly are his qualification to head the vm? i know he was the doctor to the last two presidents. but it is a massive organization. it is a massive management task. >> reporter: it does always help to praise the boss and i don't think that was a remote possibility that this was part of this. i was told by a white house official that part of the decision was doctor jackson's performance at that briefing. they are saying and insisting that dr. jackson did not get this job because he was heaping praise on the president's

health. but the president liked dr. jackson handled himself with reporters and that was part of t as for the doctor's qualifications, a white house official pushed back and said wait a minute, dr. jackson is qualified to run the va if you take a look at his medical background. and dr. jackson was praised by previous administrations. but i don't think it ever hurts you to praise the boss and we heard a lot in that briefing about that. and apparently the president liked what he heard at the briefing and that was a big part of why dr. jackson is getting this big job. it will be interesting to watch how the confirmation process goes. he does have a lot of serious questions to answer about how he is going to take care of this large important agency. >> i appreciate it.

now to another legal fights. emoluments, it is generally defined as compensation, meaning salary, fee, profit for services of employment in an office. saying in part no person holding any office of profit or trust under them shall -- or foreign state. again, a lot of big fancy words but basically means it is illegal to profit from being president. but attorneys general from maryland and the district of columbia filed suits alleging the president has done that. foreign officials have paid to stay at trump hotel in washington. the trump organization statement says it does significantly narrow the scope of the case.

joining me now is the board chair for a watchdog group which joined in that litigation. you were involved in that lawsuit. to you, what are the implications of this lawsuit actually proceeding. >> thanks for having me back do the implications of this lawsuit now, the judge has said the district of columbia and maryland have standing. they have sufficiently alleged an injury in respect to president trump taking these benefits, cash swag emoluments is a word for swag. and the president is raking it in. and the court said bring it on. d.c. and maryland can litigate

this case they have standing. >> is the allegation, you know, obviously the president has business interest, would any business interest in your opinion be a violation of the emolument clause or people are intentionally staying at this hotel to curry favor. >> the reason cash or benefits from american domestic governments flowing to a president because they thought it would bend his judgment and what is happening over in the trump hotel on pennsylvania avenue is an outrage. openly saying of course we are going to stay there to try to get in good with him. and so this is just what the founders and framers feared and

it is a very serious problem. >> does this mean the way the court has ruled now, does this mean that other states and other businesses near trump properties around the country can have legal standing claiming the same thing the trump property has -- not staying at our hotel and it is hurting our business. >> that is one of the most important aspects of this case, the court set out a set of standards that any state that has a trump property, any competitor, any individual being harmed similar to d.c. and maryland, anywhere in the country can proceed against the trump institution and that's the right decision, anderson, it is crazy that we have a president who is nakedly exploiting the oval office, and spends a third

of his time as president at his own businesses, the trump hotel and else where across the country, no wonder we are seeing the administration surrounded by scandal. when the president, the tone at the top sets for i am going to profit. the constitution for bibids it. >> i appreciate your time, thanks very much. >> the attorney for adult film star stormy daniels is filing new legal action. coming up when we continue. ♪ at&t gives you more for your thing. your snapping pics all day, all night thing. your getting the low-light, just right thing. ♪ introducing the samsung galaxy s9 with low light camera.

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michael avenatti the attorney for stormy daniels has filed a motion in federal court seeking to depose the president and his attorney michael cohen to ask about the 130,000 payment. white house press secretary sarah sanders fielded another question about it at today's briefing. >> you haven't answered the substantive question about whether the president was aware of the $130,000 payment that was made in which he is explicitly named. are you aware now?

>> the president has denied the allegations. and we have spoken about this issue and i don't have anything beyond that. anything beyond that i would refer you to the outside counsel. >> i am joined now by michael avenatti. thanks for being with us. michael cohen's people want this in arbitration. they don't want it to be in open court and they tried to move it to federal court which has a history of pushing it towards arbitration. how is that affecting what you are doing today to be able to depose the president and depose michael cohen. >> what we filed just after midnight, this morning was a preemptive motion and asked for a number of things. a two-hour deposition of the president and two-hour deposition of michael cohen. limited document request. and then we want to expedite a

trial date on the issue on whether the agreement was entered into. before their motion to compel arbitration can be heard, a fundamental question has to be asked. without that agreement you never get to the motion to compel arbitration and that is under what is called the federal arbitration act. we had this motion in the can for a while. we were expecting them to move to federal court. they did. and we have now filed this motion and we are highly confident the court is going to grant it. >> if the president is not a signatory to the actual contract, why try to depose the president, what are the questions you want to put to him? >> we want to finds o out what

president when he knew it and what he knew. >> are you talking about having the affair, or whether he asked michael cohen did this. >> we are focused on the formation of the agreement and the terms of the agreement and what the president knew and when he knew it. we are not interested in what the white house spokesperson or deputy spokesperson has to say. we want to put the president under oath. normally you are permitted seven hours under the federal rules and we requested two of his and mr. cohen. it is one thing to lie to the press and another thing to perjure yourself under oath. >> why are you, you say you are confident in the motion, is there precedent for this? this is an accelerated schedule you are asking for. >> this is not a crazy notion we

thought up overnight. we have been looking at this for a number of weeks and we have done our homework. the president may not like the ninth circuit court of appeal, i happen to love the ninth circuit. it is a circuit in which i practice quite a bit. the judges are learned and able to say the least. and extensive precedent. i don't think the president's team thought through this process. they didn't see this coming. >> do you know how quickly you will get a ruling on this? >> we asked for a hearing on april 20th. i have experience before judge ottero. i am confident he is going to hear the motion on april 30th

and issue the decision shortly there after. if the motion is granted, i can envision us taking the deposition of michael cohen and the president within 30 or 45 days. >> coming up, outrage in sacramento after police killed an unarmed 22-year-old man. we will get the latest in a live update next. ♪ gas, bloating, constipation and diarrhea can start in the colon and may be signs of an imbalance of good bacteria.

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there's more breaking news tonight. protests continue in sacramento, california, after police shot and killed an unarmed 22-year-old african-american man, stephon clark, in his grandmother's yard. at the white house today, sarah sanders was asked if the president had anything to say about the case. >> certainly a terrible incident. this is something that is a local matter and it's something we feel should be left up to the local authorities.

>> what does he say about weeding out bad policing when you continue to see these kinds of situations occur over and over again? >> certainly we want to make sure that all law enforcement is carrying out the letter of the law. the president's very supportive of law enforcement, but at the same time in these specific cases, in these specific instance, those will be left up to local authorities to make that determination and not something for the federal government to weigh into. >> the protests in sacramento have spilled over into a city council meeting and multiple protests during nba games. dan simon is there, joins us now. dan, what's the situation? >> reporter: hi, anderson. for the last hour or so, we've been marching along with these protesters in downtown sacramento. they've really been clogging the streets and creating problems for people trying to get home from work. i've been in sacramento for the last week, and i have to say that the anger is not dissipating over this issue. if anything, it has gotten even more intense.

take a look. [ crowd chanting ] sacramento's chaotic city council meeting, the latest example of the escalating tension over the police shooting death of an unarmed 22-year-old black man named stephon clark. >> the mayor and the city of sacramento has -- >> clark's brother has called the police officers murderers. the meeting was halted. >> enough, enough. >> the chief of police got my brother killed. he shows no emotion at all. >> shut up! >> we are going to recess the council meeting and resume in 15 minutes. >> it all began with this. >> show me your hands. >> two sacramento police officers, one of them black, responding to a report of

someone breaking car windows, fired 20 shots at stephon clark in his grandmother's backyard. police firing after thinking the 22-year-old was pointing a gun at them. instead, only a cell phone was found nearby. >> everybody, take out your cell phone. >> reporter: activists seized on that troubling fact. >> direct the cell phone to the council. does this look, as you point this to our council -- does this look like a gun? >> bottom line, were the officers justified at all in this shooting? >> well, that was what this investigation has to come to a conclusion of at the end. and until all the facts are in and until we finish that, i can't answer that. >> reporter: sacramento's police chief has pledged complete transparency while also announcing that the investigation will be overseen by the state's department of justice. part of the community anger stems from a puzzling moment caught on the body camera video. just moments after the shooting, the officers turned off their microphones. it's allowed under department

policy if officers, for instance, have a confidential conversation. but it's not clear why they would have shut the mikes off here. the chief acknowledging it raises the suspicion that the officers had something to hide. >> it might be and probably is a time to not allow that anymore. >> we will fight for stephon. >> the family has hired civil rights attorney benjamin crump. for now, all they say they want is justice. >> why? >> reporter: a wrongful death lawsuit will certainly be coming while protesters take to the streets. on tuesday, for the second time in a week, they blocked the entrances to the sacramento kings basketball game, leaving the stands almost completely empty. >> dan, i understand that clark's memorial service is tomorrow and that there's another basketball game tomorrow night. are police preparing to shift their strategy when it comes to protesters? >> reporter: well, there is this memorial service tomorrow, anderson, and they're expecting as many as 500 people to attend.

it is a public service. >> dan simon, thanks. you saw benjamin crump there in dan's piece. we'll talk to mr. crump in the next hour. coming up, new questions tonight about whether the president's lawyer floated the idea of pard enning michael flynn and paul manafort. we'll have what the white house is saying next, which seems carefully worded. yielded to no one. when i found you in my dna, i learned where my strength comes from. my name is courtney mckinney, and this is my ancestrydna story. now with 5 times more detail than other dna tests. order your kit at ancestrydna.com now with 5 times more detail than other dna tests. ethat's the height ofs mount everest. because each day she chooses to take the stairs.

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protecting our country. the first question is: why? what is in his and his family's business dealings with russia that he is so determined to hide, that he'd betray our country? and the second question is: why is he still president? join us today. we have to do something.

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...hotel you want at the lowest price. grazi, gino! find a price that fits. tripadvisor. did the president's personal attorney try to secure the silence of two key figures in the russia probe by offering presidential pardons? on the table new reporting that suggests the answer may be yes. some very carefully parsed answers from the white house aren't exactly dispelling suspicions. also it's a controversy as close to the white house as the trump international hotel. a lawsuit gets the go ahead accusing the president of profiting. and the legal effort to get the president on the record and under oath. new filings by the attorney for stormy daniels. we begin with the pardon story first reported in "the new york times." the headline, trump's lawyers raised prospect of pardons for flynn and mafrd. the lawyer in question is john dowd. the discussions happened before michael flynn copped a plea and paul manafort was charged. our jeff z